Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

Goregrinder

Raideen wrote: »

My fundamental issue with the removing of Rapid Maneuver is that they are taking away an ability I already worked for, on multiple characters. I don't want to be forced to doing PVP AGAIN in order to get the ability. I tried PVP multiple times in this game and I just do not like it, not at all. I have MOSTLY only done PVP for the entirety of my online existence. If I logged into WOW tonight, I'd be doing PVP. If I logged into SWTOR tonight, I'd be doing PVP. But in ESO its just done so badly that I find no fun in it.

I have seen some extremely questionable design decisions in my lifetime, but this one....

You're also getting an ability you "didn't" work for...Vigor. It's a 1-for-1 trade.

esotoon

Goregrinder wrote: »

[Vigor requires rank 1 right? Rapids requires rank 5 right? You should have at least Rank 2 unlocked right?

Vigor unlocks at Rank 2 which requires 700 AP. Rapids unlocks at Rank 5 which requires 98,000 AP. So your suggestion of being half way there was a little off. More like 1/140 the way there.

If not, then you must not PVP at all, in which case Rapids is not for you.

Why? It has been since Beta. What has changed about the game to make it that players no longer need Rapids? Did the maps get smaller? Did horses get suddenly faster with the latest DLC? Did another source of major gallop become available?

Raideen

Goregrinder wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

My fundamental issue with the removing of Rapid Maneuver is that they are taking away an ability I already worked for, on multiple characters. I don't want to be forced to doing PVP AGAIN in order to get the ability. I tried PVP multiple times in this game and I just do not like it, not at all. I have MOSTLY only done PVP for the entirety of my online existence. If I logged into WOW tonight, I'd be doing PVP. If I logged into SWTOR tonight, I'd be doing PVP. But in ESO its just done so badly that I find no fun in it.

I have seen some extremely questionable design decisions in my lifetime, but this one....

You're also getting an ability you "didn't" work for...Vigor. It's a 1-for-1 trade.

A. I did not ask for it. I worked for Rapid Maneuver, that is the spell I expect to play with.
B. Vigor is all but useless for magicka classes....take a guess at what I play.

silvereyes

And now ZOS is zeroing in on global 3 second AOE cooldowns for Cyrodiil.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6989404#Comment_6989404

If this goes into effect, I'm out. There won't be any putting on of "big boy pants" to get Rapids back on my remaining alts. I'm getting too old for this crap.

Looks around for the "delete Cyrodiil" button.

silvereyes

[Quoted Post Removed]

I've spent over 16 hours and hundreds of thousands of gold outfitting over a dozen alts and grinding out Rapids over the last months. I still have 19 alts to go, and it looks like ZOS is hell-bent on destroying the little fun I already have in Cyrodiil with their AoE caps and endless testing.

You spend your time how you like. I choose to spend mine doing activities I enjoy. I wish you the best.

JoeCapricorn

All the changes being made in Cyrodiil with these tests, they are hard to keep track of. I'm not sure how I feel about them, although clearly it seems the aim is to improve performance. The AoE cooldown seems annoying at face value. The group size limit is also kinda weird but that seems aimed to limiting zergs - it doesn't prevent them though, multiple group leaders can still command a unified force of dozens of players. I already saw in my PVP guild that there are now multiple auto-invite triggers for the different groups (xxxx1, xxxx2 etc)

Perhaps that is the real reason for Rapids being changed, but the counterpoint to that notion is that PVPers (that still enjoy PVP) would have Rapids anyway. The swap of Rapids and Vigor did nothing to affect my main, after all, and I rarely PVP on any other character.

I see no reason why there cannot be a compromise. Best one would be to swap Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield, that's my favorite one. Second best one is lower the requirements. This is where things have boiled down to.

I hope there is word on a compromise soon. I hope there is a response that is better than the non-answer we got. All I want is some goodwill to be restored.

Nomadic_Atmoran

Jaraal wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

If your incapable of understanding why someone would think one important skill being available to the many is better than a skill not important at all being locked behind a higher tier of a skill tree. Thats your problem.

Define "important."

I have 10 stamina characters who are level 50, not one of them found Vigor to be an important skill. In fact, those of them who actually purchased Vigor when it was Alliance rank 5 found it to be a waste of a skill slot, and used something else.

On the other hand, being able to get to objectives faster, completing quests faster, traveling between world bosses, dungeons, delves, dolmens, keeps, lore books and so on and so forth were far more important in the leveling process for ALL of my characters (magicka or stamina) than a healing skill I never wanted or needed.

Even ZOS didn't feel it was important enough to be a rank 2 skill for six years. But they felt Rapids was important enough to be unlocked right away. What does that tell you?

I am having serious doubts about your ability to be honest in this discussion after you just attempted to convince people that Steam stats reflected players leaving over this ability.

You also seem to think your anecdotal experience stacks up against the data that drove ZOS to make the change. It does not. In fact no ones experiences in this thread stacks up against it. No matter how much you keep posting in here.

ZOS has made numerous changes including moving skills around over the years. Rapids/Vigor isnt the first and it likely wont be the last. It doesnt matter if it took them 20 years to make the change. The change happened and you'll either live with it or youll eventually realize its not coming back and take all that time you had for your 10 stamina characters that dont use Vigor and find another game.

Jaraal

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

If your incapable of understanding why someone would think one important skill being available to the many is better than a skill not important at all being locked behind a higher tier of a skill tree. Thats your problem.

Define "important."

I have 10 stamina characters who are level 50, not one of them found Vigor to be an important skill. In fact, those of them who actually purchased Vigor when it was Alliance rank 5 found it to be a waste of a skill slot, and used something else.

On the other hand, being able to get to objectives faster, completing quests faster, traveling between world bosses, dungeons, delves, dolmens, keeps, lore books and so on and so forth were far more important in the leveling process for ALL of my characters (magicka or stamina) than a healing skill I never wanted or needed.

Even ZOS didn't feel it was important enough to be a rank 2 skill for six years. But they felt Rapids was important enough to be unlocked right away. What does that tell you?

I am having serious doubts about your ability to be honest in this discussion after you just attempted to convince people that Steam stats reflected players leaving over this ability.

Clearly you haven't looked at the empirical data before claiming that going back to school is the reason for a 20% loss of Steam player activity. Previous years show minimal losses, and even gains in player activity in September, so your theory certainly makes less sense than mine.

You also seem to think your anecdotal experience stacks up against the data that drove ZOS to make the change. It does not. In fact no ones experiences in this thread stacks up against it.

The data that ZOS has access to led them to leave the skills as they were originally designed for six years. Stamina classes that have been added in after the fact clearly have better heals than Vigor. Again, this isn't even about Vigor. So, if you wish to point out what the data says about the change, then tell us what data motivated them to take Rapids away from the majority of player characters.

The change happened and you'll either live with it or youll eventually realize its not coming back and take all that time you had for your 10 stamina characters that dont use Vigor and find another game.

The majority of my 10 stamina characters have Rapid Maneuver. Why would I find another game? Others have moved on over this change, I'm just not one of them.

I'm just here to support those who feel wronged by the unnecessary quality of life change.

deevoh1991

Jaraal wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

The absolute LEAST they could do is lower the requirements to get Rapids. The best they could do is also make it require Assault 2, because this is a skill a LOT of people have on their bar.

But you’re missing the point. The point of the change was to make Rapids harder to get, so you will be more likely to purchase speed upgrades from the crown store. Vigor is just a diversion.

I agree if it were skill level 5 from the beginning it's understandable.

[Edit to remove bashing]

JoeCapricorn

I have to wonder about something... if Rapid Maneuver is changed to be freely available again, or the requirements are lowered, would players who spent 3000 crowns on the Alliance skill unlock be able to request those crowns back?

I think they should, especially if the only reason they spent those crowns was to get Rapids back.

Jaraal

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

I have to wonder about something... if Rapid Maneuver is changed to be freely available again, or the requirements are lowered, would players who spent 3000 crowns on the Alliance skill unlock be able to request those crowns back?

I think they should, especially if the only reason they spent those crowns was to get Rapids back.

You would have to ask one of the players who spent the crowns to get Vigor for their alts before the swap, only to find out later that they could have gotten it with a 3 minute quest if they had waited.

There are other worthwhile skills available in the Alliance war trees, like Purge, War Horn, Barrier, Proxy Det, etc. I don't think they would refund crowns over buyer's remorse, but I can't say for sure that they wouldn't, either.

Jaraal

Iarao wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

They are available on the test server, both purchasable with crowns and by ultra rare and expensive player sourced means.

JoeCapricorn

Yes, there are skill line scrolls coming to the Crown store, but also consumables that can be found and crafted in game, although the recipes and materials require being in Cyrodiil or PVP, if I recall.

I also hope with Update 28 that there is a compromise implemented.

Let's press for that, a compromise resolution, rather than debating intentions and such behind the change.

anitajoneb17_ESO

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Yes, there are skill line scrolls coming to the Crown store, but also consumables that can be found and crafted in game, although the recipes and materials require being in Cyrodiil or PVP, if I recall.

Is there an AP boosting potions or food or drink ?

Sephyr

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Yes, there are skill line scrolls coming to the Crown store, but also consumables that can be found and crafted in game, although the recipes and materials require being in Cyrodiil or PVP, if I recall.

Is there an AP boosting potions or food or drink ?

Not to my knowledge, or I haven't been looking hard enough. I don't think so.

Rehdaun

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Is there an AP boosting potions or food or drink ?

Not at this time. But there will soon be a two per$on mount in the crown store.

JoeCapricorn

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Yes, there are skill line scrolls coming to the Crown store, but also consumables that can be found and crafted in game, although the recipes and materials require being in Cyrodiil or PVP, if I recall.

Is there an AP boosting potions or food or drink ?

In Update 28 there will be consumables that can be acquired in game that speed up the leveling of the Alliance skill lines. It does not grant extra AP, however. There are 50%, 100% and 150% versions. Additionally, they will also be available in the crown store.

anitajoneb17_ESO

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Yes, there are skill line scrolls coming to the Crown store, but also consumables that can be found and crafted in game, although the recipes and materials require being in Cyrodiil or PVP, if I recall.

Is there an AP boosting potions or food or drink ?

In Update 28 there will be consumables that can be acquired in game that speed up the leveling of the Alliance skill lines. It does not grant extra AP, however. There are 50%, 100% and 150% versions. Additionally, they will also be available in the crown store.

Let's call them "alliance skill lines boosters" then. I'll have a closer look at PTS natch potes to find out more.
Thanks for the info. Good to know.

Jaraal

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Yes, there are skill line scrolls coming to the Crown store, but also consumables that can be found and crafted in game, although the recipes and materials require being in Cyrodiil or PVP, if I recall.

Is there an AP boosting potions or food or drink ?

Only Pelinal's scroll currently, but it's only useable during events. I would not, however, be a bit surprised to find some variant of it available in the crown store at some point..... especially if the AOE cooldown and anti-cross healing changes are made permanent and folks keep staying away from Cyrodiil.

JoeCapricorn

I think the Alliance Skill booster Tortes would have been a bit more worth while if they also gave more AP in general.

At a certain point, they become absolutely useless, for instance if someone PVPs on all of their alts and reaches rank 10 on each of them.

It's almost like the horse lessons. Until I create a new character, I have no use for them. And right now, I only have use for riding stamina, because that is the one I wait to level up last. In 58 days, I'll be at full 60 for my 12th alt!

I guess future Daily Rewards may also include them which would be handy to keep on hand. Especially if I decide to try and grind out Alliance ranks on some alts to get back Rapids.

Zephiran23

Looks like we're never going to get a proper explanation of why the changes were made the way that they were and will just have to live with our conspiracy theories.

My major problem remains - why would a change that has provoked this kind of reaction have so little communication to players in this forum and also in the PTS forum?

rpa

Zephiran23 wrote: »

Looks like we're never going to get a proper explanation of why the changes were made the way that they were and will just have to live with our conspiracy theories.

My major problem remains - why would a change that has provoked this kind of reaction have so little communication to players in this forum and also in the PTS forum?

Well, if some of the theories were true, they could either confirm something embarrasing, lie or remain silent.

My favorite non-conspiracy theory is that database server can not handle too many players moving fast around without loadscreens every few seconds for everyone so their "solution" is to glue people to ground.

Obsidian3

Zephiran23 wrote: »

Looks like we're never going to get a proper explanation of why the changes were made the way that they were and will just have to live with our conspiracy theories.

My major problem remains - why would a change that has provoked this kind of reaction have so little communication to players in this forum and also in the PTS forum?

Let's take a look at the facts...

This change was made AFTER Midyear Mayhem and The Imperial City event.

Riding lessons went on sale immediately after the change.

Alliance War Skill line boosts are coming for purchase in the Crown Store.

You can make Alliance War Skill Boost scrolls, after an impossibly long grind and with materials that have a minuscule drop rate.

Take all this into account, and ask yourself again, will they lower the requirements for Rapid Maneuvers?

JoeCapricorn

Obsidian3 wrote: »

Zephiran23 wrote: »

Looks like we're never going to get a proper explanation of why the changes were made the way that they were and will just have to live with our conspiracy theories.

My major problem remains - why would a change that has provoked this kind of reaction have so little communication to players in this forum and also in the PTS forum?

Let's take a look at the facts...

This change was made AFTER Midyear Mayhem and The Imperial City event.

Riding lessons went on sale immediately after the change.

Alliance War Skill line boosts are coming for purchase in the Crown Store.

You can make Alliance War Skill Boost scrolls, after an impossibly long grind and with materials that have a minuscule drop rate.

Take all this into account, and ask yourself again, will they lower the requirements for Rapid Maneuvers?

The Imperial City event was after the change to Rapid Maneuver.

I've always thought the link between riding lessons and Rapid Maneuver was a bit dubious, because a lot of the people (including myself) who are missing Rapid Maneuver already have 60 Speed on most or all of their alts. In fact just a few days ago I hit 60 Speed on my newest alt who is still level 4. It may be possible that Riding Lessons were discounted for a time to "ease the burn" of this change, though. It didn't work, at least for me.

The War Tortes arrive in a bit less than two weeks from now. It may still be possible that they implement some kind of compromise in regards to Rapid Maneuver by then. It would help negate even the appearance of an ulterior motive. But I'm starting to lean toward the idea that if they don't do anything it is more because they are just focused on other things.

If no compromise is done for Update 28, I might have to admit defeat. I've argued against this change very hard and I think I made more than enough noise about it, but it has been exhausting to check the forums every day for two months.

I will hang on for a little while longer, but eventually I'm just going to want to play the game. I will always be sad about the change and it will still be one that bothers me for a while yet if no alternative is considered, but I've got virtually no wind in my sails to continue arguing.

Elvenheart

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Obsidian3 wrote: »

Zephiran23 wrote: »

Looks like we're never going to get a proper explanation of why the changes were made the way that they were and will just have to live with our conspiracy theories.

My major problem remains - why would a change that has provoked this kind of reaction have so little communication to players in this forum and also in the PTS forum?

Let's take a look at the facts...

This change was made AFTER Midyear Mayhem and The Imperial City event.

Riding lessons went on sale immediately after the change.

Alliance War Skill line boosts are coming for purchase in the Crown Store.

You can make Alliance War Skill Boost scrolls, after an impossibly long grind and with materials that have a minuscule drop rate.

Take all this into account, and ask yourself again, will they lower the requirements for Rapid Maneuvers?

The Imperial City event was after the change to Rapid Maneuver.

I've always thought the link between riding lessons and Rapid Maneuver was a bit dubious, because a lot of the people (including myself) who are missing Rapid Maneuver already have 60 Speed on most or all of their alts. In fact just a few days ago I hit 60 Speed on my newest alt who is still level 4. It may be possible that Riding Lessons were discounted for a time to "ease the burn" of this change, though. It didn't work, at least for me.

The War Tortes arrive in a bit less than two weeks from now. It may still be possible that they implement some kind of compromise in regards to Rapid Maneuver by then. It would help negate even the appearance of an ulterior motive. But I'm starting to lean toward the idea that if they don't do anything it is more because they are just focused on other things.

If no compromise is done for Update 28, I might have to admit defeat. I've argued against this change very hard and I think I made more than enough noise about it, but it has been exhausting to check the forums every day for two months.

I will hang on for a little while longer, but eventually I'm just going to want to play the game. I will always be sad about the change and it will still be one that bothers me for a while yet if no alternative is considered, but I've got virtually no wind in my sails to continue arguing.

Many thanks to you and the many others who have worked so diligently to keep this on ZOS’s list of things to consider. We can continue to hope that it will indeed be considered at some point.

I’ll say it’s been fun debating the issue with the naysayers who tried to take the winds out of our sails or blow us off course, but an excellent job was done by all in helping to keep our ship headed in the right direction. Sadly, we just didn’t know the ship we were on was the Titanic! 🧊 🚢

Obsidian3

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

I will hang on for a little while longer, but eventually I'm just going to want to play the game. I will always be sad about the change and it will still be one that bothers me for a while yet if no alternative is considered, but I've got virtually no wind in my sails to continue arguing.

I think this is what they are counting on from all of us.

Rehdaun

Anyone know when two person mount will be available in the crown store?

Goregrinder

esotoon wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

[Vigor requires rank 1 right? Rapids requires rank 5 right? You should have at least Rank 2 unlocked right?

Vigor unlocks at Rank 2 which requires 700 AP. Rapids unlocks at Rank 5 which requires 98,000 AP. So your suggestion of being half way there was a little off. More like 1/140 the way there.

If not, then you must not PVP at all, in which case Rapids is not for you.

Why? It has been since Beta. What has changed about the game to make it that players no longer need Rapids? Did the maps get smaller? Did horses get suddenly faster with the latest DLC? Did another source of major gallop become available?

Correct, from rank 2 you only need 3 more ranks to rank 5 then you're gonna be cruisin at lightspeed with Rapids on your bar.

JoeCapricorn

I've been giving it some thought.

It really wouldn't hurt anyone for them to lower the requirements to get Rapid Maneuver. Just lower the requirements. Not everyone likes PVP, some people prefer not to PVP entirely. LET THEM. How about lower the requirements for Rapid Maneuver so that the people who hated PVP can get their Rapids back? Hmm?

There is no reason NOT to lower the requirements. I can't think of any. Or swap Rapids with Siege Shield. Everyone would be happy.

PizzaCat82

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

If your incapable of understanding why someone would think one important skill being available to the many is better than a skill not important at all being locked behind a higher tier of a skill tree. Thats your problem.

Define "important."

I have 10 stamina characters who are level 50, not one of them found Vigor to be an important skill. In fact, those of them who actually purchased Vigor when it was Alliance rank 5 found it to be a waste of a skill slot, and used something else.

On the other hand, being able to get to objectives faster, completing quests faster, traveling between world bosses, dungeons, delves, dolmens, keeps, lore books and so on and so forth were far more important in the leveling process for ALL of my characters (magicka or stamina) than a healing skill I never wanted or needed.

Even ZOS didn't feel it was important enough to be a rank 2 skill for six years. But they felt Rapids was important enough to be unlocked right away. What does that tell you?

I am having serious doubts about your ability to be honest in this discussion after you just attempted to convince people that Steam stats reflected players leaving over this ability.

You also seem to think your anecdotal experience stacks up against the data that drove ZOS to make the change. It does not. In fact no ones experiences in this thread stacks up against it. No matter how much you keep posting in here.

ZOS has made numerous changes including moving skills around over the years. Rapids/Vigor isnt the first and it likely wont be the last. It doesnt matter if it took them 20 years to make the change. The change happened and you'll either live with it or youll eventually realize its not coming back and take all that time you had for your 10 stamina characters that dont use Vigor and find another game.

I still have a character with rapids unlocked at rank 4. They definitely could have left it for people who had it already.