Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

JoeCapricorn

The longer this drags on, the worse it looks for them, honestly.

SilverBride

@esotoon

I don't have any evidence, and that is why I claimed it as speculation and not fact. Just something to consider.

Frankly I find it irritating that there is so much blame still going on, rather than making a strong case for a compromise. @JoeCapricorn, as frustrated as he is, is still bringing some good reasons for a compromise to the discussion. Why can't that be the focus now? That is the only thing that may bring change, in my opinion.

That old adage about attracting more bees with honey rather than vinegar still holds true today.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

Frankly I find it irritating that there is so much blame still going on, rather than making a strong case for a compromise. @JoeCapricorn, as frustrated as he is, is still bringing some good reasons for a compromise to the discussion. Why can't that be the focus now? That is the only thing that may bring change, in my opinion.
.

What new is there to be talked about with regards to compromise? The compromises that are still being put forward today are exactly the same as what we put forward during the PTS, the same as we put forward when this went live, and now 2 months on they are the same. They are also the same compromises that have allegedly been "listened to", with no reason being given to give any indication as to why they are not suitable.

I can repeat the same things I have already said previously in this thread with long explanations as to the pros and cons, if that is what you want?

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

I can repeat the same things I have already said previously in this thread with long explanations as to the pros and cons, if that is what you want?

Not necessary.

I already said I stand behind the compromise of making Rapids unlock at 3 or 4, instead of 5. But I can't stand behind the continued blaming and bashing.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

I already said I stand behind the compromise of making Rapids unlock at 3 or 4, instead of 5. But I can't stand behind the continued blaming and bashing.

What you see as blaming and bashing others might view as fairly criticising.

You have every right not to stand behind it, but others have every right to express it.

However if you truly believe you see bashing going on, as that is against the forum ToC's, please report it.

Lord-Otto

SilverBride wrote: »

@esotoon

I don't have any evidence, and that is why I claimed it as speculation and not fact. Just something to consider.

Frankly I find it irritating that there is so much blame still going on, rather than making a strong case for a compromise. @JoeCapricorn, as frustrated as he is, is still bringing some good reasons for a compromise to the discussion. Why can't that be the focus now? That is the only thing that may bring change, in my opinion.

That old adage about attracting more bees with honey rather than vinegar still holds true today.

What a bad saying. If you really want the bees' attention, you gotta kick their hive.

rpa

This is already lasted long enough. I'm old enough I'm not in a hurry so while I miss rapids on my new char I do fine without.

However this game has tendency for regular unnecessary random annoyances. I do enjoy the game when it works (and it often works for me) and I'd like to sub but soon the game ruptures again from some other display of mismanagement and neglect, so better not.

JoeCapricorn

Honey from even the most bitter of flowers will taste sweet. The bees that make it are such fluffy darlings with cute antennae.

Silverbride's favorite compromise is to lower the requirements to Assault 3. Mine is to swap Rapid with Siege Shield.

So, @ZOS_GinaBruno , which would be better?

1. Swap Rapid Maneuver and Siege Shield. Siege Shield becomes an Assault skill and requires Assault 4 or 5 to level up. Because it seems to be a skill that is largely used in a PVP environment, it's usefulness is niche, and having a less niche and more widely adaptable skill in Support would make more sense. Rapid Maneuver could take that spot. Meanwhile, Siege Shield would be moved around, but it is already a PVP exclusive skill, as it is meant to protect siege weapons from countersiege. Siege Shield would not be dramatically affected, as if a new PVP character needed it they would be PVPing anyway and would get it back over the course of gameplay (and reasonably fast because they would have Rapids from the get go). Instead of radio silence or bluntly stating there will not be a reversal of the change, I would prefer to know a compelling reason why this compromise could not work. Because I am willing to hedge a bet that there is NOTHING in the backend that prevents this kind of swap.

2. Lower the requirements for Rapid Maneuver. There are three sub-options for this: Assault 4, Assault 3, Assault 2.
Assault 4 would require around half of the grind - it would be marginally better, but it will still involve a sizable grind for players who miss out on the double AP or have no idea what they are doing. It's only saving grace is that it is better than Assault 5.
Assault 3: Significantly better, and a true compromise - you still have to work for Rapids, but not as much. The wall that once seemed insurmountable is lowered. I can handle a little bit of anxiety inducing PVP to get Rapids back on my alts. I would be okay with this.
Assault 2: Best, as it would make Rapids free again. However, this comes with a weird UI quirk where two skills in the Assault skill-line are unlocked at the same time. I am not sure if the developers want that to happen. But, the positive effect is no other skills are swapped around (Vigor stays, Siege Shield stays) and I don't see how this could make the players unhappy about it.

Please, hear us out Gina! We love this game and care about what your team has built for us, a virtual escape from the troubles of the world (such as my mother passing away), and all we want is a skill that was a core QOL part of many of our repertoires returned to us. We are not saying that you need to revert the change, but please compromise! Otherwise the silence is deafening to some and may lead to rumors and conspiracies (I may be guilty of this myself).

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

What new is there to be talked about with regards to compromise? The compromises that are still being put forward today are exactly the same as what we put forward during the PTS, the same as we put forward when this went live, and now 2 months on they are the same.

That is a good indication that maybe it's time to put this thread to rest.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

That is a good indication that maybe it's time to put this thread to rest.

Did we get Rapids back? I must have missed that.

SilverBride

.

Ackwalan

esotoon wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

That is a good indication that maybe it's time to put this thread to rest.

Did we get Rapids back? I must have missed that.

There comes a time when you just need to put your big boy pants on. In the past 2 months you could have taken 1 resource a day and have rapids by now. ZOS is not going to change anytime soon. Your choices now are to PvP and get rapids, go without rapids or quit. Not the most optimal choices, but that's what we got.

As a side note, if the current MMO market wasn't so dry, companies would try harder.

esotoon

Ackwalan wrote: »

There comes a time when you just need to put your big boy pants on. In the past 2 months you could have taken 1 resource a day and have rapids by now. ZOS is not going to change anytime soon. Your choices now are to PvP and get rapids, go without rapids or quit. Not the most optimal choices, but that's what we got.

You are making a lot of assumptions there.

1) The size of my pants. (I have no problem PVPing, I've been doing it several years.)
2) That because I am still actively campaigning for change, I haven't already gone and got Rapids on various characters.
3) That because I am still actively campaigning for change, I haven't already quit the game, or let ESO+ membership lapse.
4) That being a big boy means letting companies do whatever they want to their customer base without being held accountable for their actions.

Ultimately you are right though. I don't think ZOS will be changing their mind on this. However that doesn't mean I, or anyone, should "go gentle into that good night".

JoeCapricorn

SilverBride wrote: »

That is a good indication that maybe it's time to put this thread to rest.

I disagree to a point.

If ZOS implements a compromise solution, then yes, this thread can be put to rest. But I would want the discussion to continue as long as possible if no compromise is being considered by ZOS, possibly indefinitely.

SilverBride

.

barney2525

OK,

I see all the points of each side of the discussion. And to various degrees, there are valid points on each side. but let's Clarify.

Literally No skill in the game is " Essential " to stamina based characters

Literally No skill in the game is " Essential " to move from point A to point B

Multiple Classes have methods of healing. Potions Heal. Drinks can be used to heal as can be food (if you really are in dire straits and want to activate them multiple times )

You can buy Swift Necklaces and Rings (designed for trait learning, but they work just fine at low levels ) to increase your movement. park the character at th4e stable so when you log in, adding speed is your first action. At CP 360 you can put 120 points into (the green path - put 60 into stam recovery, 60 into magicka recovery or whatever improves your character on that specific section) for additional percentage movement.

Or - do None of the above and you can still play the game ... Just Fine.

IMHO

esotoon

barney2525 wrote: »

Or - do None of the above and you can still play the game ... Just Fine.

You can also play the game just fine by...

Never using a mount.
Never using sprint.
Never using run, and walking everywhere.

So taken to it's logical conclusion, ZOS could suddenly make it so that everyone walked everywhere without any other form of increased speed. Would that be fun to play? Would they be right to do that? Would you complain if they did? And yet, you could still play the game just fine if they did.

Nothing in this game is essential, if you take the word literally. However when it comes to enjoying the experience of playing this non essential game, some players do find Rapids to be an essential part of that.

Varana

Ackwalan wrote: »

In the past 2 months you could have taken 1 resource a day and have rapids by now.

Sure, maybe.
But it tells you a lot when the frustrating experience of posting in this thread, re-hashing the same arguments over and over, is more "fun" than dragging your lowlevel alts through PvP without Rapids. ;D

markulrich1966

The nerfs (rapids, crystal blast etc.) convinced me to stop buying expensive items.
Saved approx 200 Euro meanwhile skipping stuff like Stillwaters Retreat on both servers. Money I now will save to get a PC for 2021 so I can switch to the MMO that announced to avoid the mistakes of the existing ones.

Iarao

mareeelb16_ESO wrote: »

And wha'd'ya know?

Crown riding lessons are on offer!

Coincidence? Not!

they have been in the store for quite some time. what i am looking to see is being able to open the rapids skilline on all your players. like skyshards.

Jaraal

Iarao wrote: »

what i am looking to see is being able to open the rapids skilline on all your players. like skyshards.

Been a thing for some time now.


https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/crownstore/item/8283

Nomadic_Atmoran

Varana wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

In the past 2 months you could have taken 1 resource a day and have rapids by now.

Sure, maybe.
But it tells you a lot when the frustrating experience of posting in this thread, re-hashing the same arguments over and over, is more "fun" than dragging your lowlevel alts through PvP without Rapids. ;D

Is it though?

These were players that were never actually going into PvP. They took advantage of a quick and easy PvP ability that they didnt have to PvP for. So its no shock that when confronted with having to actually participate in the zone to obtain the ability they would do everything they can to avoid it. Not because of the standalone issues PvP is currently experiencing but because they are pure PvEers.

esotoon

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

They took advantage of a quick and easy PvP ability that they didnt have to PvP for.

It's not a PVP skill. It's use/function isn't limited to PVP or Cyrodiil. With the exception of Siege Shield and arguably Lingering Flare, there are no Skills that only have a function in PVP, and not also PVE, or vice versa.

So its no shock that when confronted with having to actually participate in the zone to obtain the ability they would do everything they can to avoid it. Not because of the standalone issues PvP is currently experiencing but because they are pure PvEers.

Or perhaps, they are just people (PVEers and PVPers) who have an issue with this change for the reasons already stated throughout this thread.

Yes some people are PVEers who hate the idea of PVP and some like me have zero problem PVPing.

Jaraal

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

These were players that were never actually going into PvP. They took advantage of a quick and easy PvP ability that they didnt have to PvP for. So its no shock that when confronted with having to actually participate in the zone to obtain the ability they would do everything they can to avoid it. Not because of the standalone issues PvP is currently experiencing but because they are pure PvEers.

Oh, you mean like Vigor is now?

ZOS thought it was enough of a grind that they made it easier for PvEers to obtain it. I guess ZOS is encouraging them to take "advantage of a quick and easy PvP ability that they didnt have to PvP for" then.

Zephiran23

Now that Vigor has been made available for so may more players, do the ZOS figures show the expected increase in players with the ability slotted? Much like the proposed Cydrodiil lag related changes, we as players would also like to know how successful such changes have been so that we can better provide feedback.

PS has this been better received than Bosmer stealth and Argonian poison changes?

zaria

Zephiran23 wrote: »

Now that Vigor has been made available for so may more players, do the ZOS figures show the expected increase in players with the ability slotted? Much like the proposed Cydrodiil lag related changes, we as players would also like to know how successful such changes have been so that we can better provide feedback.

PS has this been better received than Bosmer stealth and Argonian poison changes?

The Argonian switch to disease resistance was especially weird given that you do an quest in Elsweyr where Argonian poison resistance played an role. Why was this changed at all, is one much than the other and this was done to balance?

Removing stealth was just stupid, yes they wanted to make races more unique but its just an effect and not an very strong one for that.

Elvenheart

Jaraal wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

These were players that were never actually going into PvP. They took advantage of a quick and easy PvP ability that they didnt have to PvP for. So its no shock that when confronted with having to actually participate in the zone to obtain the ability they would do everything they can to avoid it. Not because of the standalone issues PvP is currently experiencing but because they are pure PvEers.

Oh, you mean like Vigor is now?

ZOS thought it was enough of a grind that they made it easier for PvEers to obtain it. I guess ZOS is encouraging them to take "advantage of a quick and easy PvP ability that they didnt have to PvP for" then.

Love this response! 👌

allhailskippy

zaria wrote: »

[And yes you can buy the skill line but that require that you have earned an million AP on an character who people who hate PvP don't have.

I hate PVP, but I've definitely earned 1m AP on one of my toons. I just have no interest in playing PVP on ALL of my toons.

zaria

allhailskippy wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

[And yes you can buy the skill line but that require that you have earned an million AP on an character who people who hate PvP don't have.

I hate PVP, but I've definitely earned 1m AP on one of my toons. I just have no interest in playing PVP on ALL of my toons.

Why if you hate it? Farming transmute crystals is easier then spread out over alts, you just need to heal the pug after all.

I enjoy Cyrodil a lot but see myself as mostly pve. Even done plenty of IC but that is not an pug friendly zone.

allhailskippy

zaria wrote: »

Why if you hate it? Farming transmute crystals is easier then spread out over alts, you just need to heal the pug after all.

I did it for my crafter. Saved up enough though bg's to get the militant ordinator motif. Also did enough to get a large chunk of the style pages, and was able to buy myself a volendrung furnishing.

What I hate is the community that PVP attracts. Watching the non top toxic wasteland that is zone chat. Even though it's only supposed to be your own team.

What I hate is how i feel after I've spent any amount of time doing it. My stress levels go up. I'm irritable with the people I socialize with. I get irrationally angry over inconsequential things.

And that's when I'm well equipped to go there.

When I'm on a baby toon, their gear is trash. They don't have any passives. I don't know what their buttons do.

I'm useless contributor to something that is not friendly to the teams I'm supposed to be helping.

So while I have the capacity to do it, it's not good for my overall mental health to do so. I can't stand it.

Also, I get all the transmute crystals I need from PVE content.