Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

Jaraal

joerginger wrote: »

Almost the same for me, only I still have 218 days left until ESO+ runs out. After character 8 I stopped working at getting back Rapids. There is absolutely nothing enjoyable about this endeavour whatsoever, neither for me, nor for the poor other players who end up with one of my non-PvP-optimized characters on their team in a battleground. Even worse, I'm definitely extremely unskilled when it comes to PvP, so the only real result is a lot of disappointment.

Have you tried slotting Vigor? It's "considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability."

JoeCapricorn

I sometimes feel like I am pretty good at PVP, but sometimes I feel anxiety when approaching it.

It is partly that anxiety that is keeping me from clawing my way back to having Rapid Maneuver on most of my other characters, but it is also that I don't have a lot of time to do so. Plus, I am an empath and seeing other players suffer over this decision gets me feeling emotions about it as well.

The reason why it gives me anxiety? Partly because of other players. Sometimes I don't like the feeling that I am fighting with other players. Sometimes I don't want to expose myself to abusive language or behavior. Sometimes I don't want to feel the frustration of losing or dying over and over. Sometimes I just want to play ESO for the relaxing parts.

silvereyes

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Nobody likes to go backwards. If you're used to cooking with electricity, you shouldn't have to have your power turned off and be given a pile of wood and some matches to cook with just because someone felt the power would be more useful for somebody's washing machine. Why not share the power and make everyone happy?

Define "everyone".
In your analogy, you and your neighbour are happy if you share the power, but not the power company which earns less money by issuing one shared bill than issuing two separate bills.

Wrong. Rapids benefitted everyone. So you, your neighbor, the electric company and the rats nibbling on your cable.

Nope. Noone will ever buy the alliance war skill lines nor AP booster in the crown store for rapids as long as it is available in 5 minutes just by porting to Cyrodiil. Now players have an incentive to do that (and, considering the reactions, that's a huuuuge crowd, especially the huge PvE-only crowd that desperately needs rapids but do not want to PvP).
Old situation benefitted all players, but not ZOS.
New situation benefits ZOS. That's not conspiracy. That's business.

You are making several unfounded assertions here that are by no means obviously true to me:

• That Alliance War skills other than Rapids and Vigor (e.g. War Horn, Caltrops) are not worth paying for an instant unlock for some people.
• That the number of people willing to pay to unlock the Alliance War tree or buy AP boosters from the crown store just for Rapids is at all significant to the bottom line. Keep in mind that while the raw number of characters who lost Rapids access is huge, there will be a certain percentage (I would guess most) that will not have level 10 unlocked on at least one character yet, and even fewer that will have the means or inclination to click the buy button.
• That the net effect of a loss of Rapids may have on new players bounce rates (i.e. losing interest and leaving) and existing players' willingness to start a new character and buy upgrades for those characters (e.g. the character slots themselves, research scrolls, bag upgrades, XP scrolls, potions, food, repair kits, mount upgrades, skyshard unlocks, skill line unlocks, etc) or subscribe to ESO+ is outweighed by the net effect from increased Alliance War tree skill unlock sales and mount speed lessons by people just rushing to get Rapids back.

I'm not saying that none of these is true. I'm just saying that I have no idea, and without access to the sales figures, I don't think any of us do.

Also, even for those with access to the data (i.e. ZOS marketing), it's going to be really difficult to assign cause-effect relationships between the Assault skill line changes and sales figures, because too many variables are constantly shifting (e.g. special events, Greymoor price cut during sales, double-AP in Cyrodiil, announcement of Set Collections, announcement of AP scrolls, etc.), and customers don't make purchase decisions in a vacuum.

joerginger

Jaraal wrote: »

Have you tried slotting Vigor? It's "considered a must-have for Stamina build survivability."

LOL, as a matter of fact I have, but only about half of my characters are stamina-based, and for some reason I seem to be too slow or clumsy for Vigor to have any noticeable effect while my character dies within fractions of a second.

JoeCapricorn

silvereyes wrote: »

You are making several unfounded assertions here that are by no means obviously true to me:

• That Alliance War skills other than Rapids and Vigor (e.g. War Horn, Caltrops) are not worth paying for an instant unlock for some people.
• That the number of people willing to pay to unlock the Alliance War tree or buy AP boosters from the crown store just for Rapids is at all significant to the bottom line. Keep in mind that while the raw number of characters who lost Rapids access is huge, there will be a certain percentage (I would guess most) that will not have level 10 unlocked on at least one character yet, and even fewer that will have the means or inclination to click the buy button.
• That the net effect of a loss of Rapids may have on new players bounce rates (i.e. losing interest and leaving) and existing players' willingness to start a new character and buy upgrades for those characters (e.g. the character slots themselves, research scrolls, bag upgrades, XP scrolls, potions, food, repair kits, mount upgrades, skyshard unlocks, skill line unlocks, etc) or subscribe to ESO+ is outweighed by the net effect from increased Alliance War tree skill unlock sales and mount speed lessons by people just rushing to get Rapids back.

I'm not saying that none of these is true. I'm just saying that I have no idea, and without access to the sales figures, I don't think any of us do.

Also, even for those with access to the data (i.e. ZOS marketing), it's going to be really difficult to assign cause-effect relationships between the Assault skill line changes and sales figures, because too many variables are constantly shifting (e.g. special events, Greymoor price cut during sales, double-AP in Cyrodiil, announcement of Set Collections, announcement of AP scrolls, etc.), and customers don't make purchase decisions in a vacuum.

This is why I am hoping that my act of cancelling my ESO Plus subscription helps lend weight to my argument.

I still have 75 days left on my sub. I plan on sticking around for those 75 days, but I also intend on being vocal about my displeasure for this change. After all, if I didn't get used to it in the first month, there is no reason to think I might get used to it in the next two and a half months.

By then if there is a lack of willingness to compromise, I might finalize my decision. By then I will have been playing ESO for 7 years, since the November 2013 closed beta, and they will have alienated a loyal subscriber when all they had to do was compromise.

But if they come out and say "we will require Assault 3 for Rapid Manuever"... or better yet switch it with Siege Shield, I will happily stick by my word and resubscribe. There are IRL factors behind my decision to stay unsubbed after December that I will have to consider as well, though, but even if I am unable to return to ESO on a daily basis I'd rather have ESO Plus active when I do get on to play and therefore I would be willing to subscribe, but only if this issue is settled in a manner that can make everyone happy.

Thechuckage

Jaraal wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

So the question is, how far should skill lines be adjusted for QoL?

Depends on a number of things, like how much time do you want to spend for improvements, is it something you like doing, and / or how much cash are you willing to spend for it.

I think the baseline for QoL should be: Does it improve quality? If the answer is no, or if the answer is that it makes quality of life worse, then it shouldn't be considered.

Gonna try again. Plenty of pvpers hate pve. But they need it to remain competitive. Should ZoS move the undaunted passives to the first couple skill slots in the undaunted line?

A better analogy would be, what if Undaunted Command and Undaunted Mettle were previously the first unlocks in the skill line, and ZOS decided to take them away and move them to Undaunted Rank 5 so a PvPer now gets to grind PvE dungeons where he never had to before? Would that be ok?

Short answer, yes.

Long answer - The undaunted skills give a not insignificant boost, so putting them deeper into the skill line makes sense. Same goes for rapids.
Does is stink that they waited for this long to change it, yes. It sucks every time the skills get changed around (and yes it has happened before) When that happened, specifically to DK, I grumbled and complained for 2 secs to my guild and adjusted my bars to re-unlock the skills.

esotoon

Thechuckage wrote: »

Long answer - The undaunted skills give a not insignificant boost, so putting them deeper into the skill line makes sense. Same goes for rapids.

Skills are not positioned based on their power. Some of the most powerful skills in the game are in the first slot.

Yes, skills have been moved or nerfed before, but that was in order to balance gameplay. Rapids itself was nerfed due to being overpowered in PVP, by removing it's immunity to roots/snares and reducing the Major Expedition to 8 secs. Most PVPers grumbled about that too (including me), but got on with it, just like most other changes.

However when it comes to Major Gallop, there is nothing about Rapids that is unbalanced. It wasn't over performing. Nothing about the game has changed since launch to make it any more or less needed. Nothing about the game has changed since launch to make it any more or less powerful than it has been for the past 6 years.

So no, moving it deeper doesn't make sense, when there were other options available.

JoeCapricorn

I remember skill changes that I had to adapt to as well.

I remember when Snipe was moved to the top of the bow skills and Poison Arrow moved to the bottom.

Due to a bug (maybe a bug), I had to regrind Poison Arrow and Venom Arrow. Pain in the butt, however I didn't really need to do anything I didn't want to do to regain that - I spent the time farming for mats and exploring, which was slower than outright grinding but my preferred way of gameplay.

If there was a non-PVP way to regain Rapids the same way, I might even be amenable to adapting this time. If I personally considered the process of regaining them fun, I probably wouldn't be vocal about my distaste for the change in the first place. But the core point of playing ESO is to have fun, relax, enjoy the game - for some that includes a competitive spirit - playing ESO shouldn't feel like a chore. The other reason why I haven't spent my time arguing here is because when I do get in to play ESO I try and have fun, and that mostly involves exploring the world on my main or doing writs on my alts and for the moment I am able to live without Rapid Maneuver but not necessarily adjust well to the lack of it because muscle memory still reminds me that it is gone whenever I am on an alt.

Is it impossible for me to adapt to this one as well? Maybe not. I have 75 days to decide for certain, but I really do not like how this change was implemented and how they responded to its criticism. It isn't too late to compromise.

volkeswagon

I used rapids on all my toons. I also use vigor now on all of my stam toons. And I'm talking about PVE. They are both useful skills in PVE and those skills really aren't PVP skills so they should be available in a non pvp skill line, at least rapids anyway.

anitajoneb17_ESO

silvereyes wrote: »

You are making several unfounded assertions here that are by no means obviously true to me:

You're right, I make cause => effect relationship based on (my) logic and common sense, but not backed up by data, which, if we had them, could prove me wrong to a certain extent. My point was actually more to say that ZOS has a (IMHO legit) reason to do this, but this reason has little to nothing to do with the ease of reach of vigor. Or any other AP based skill line for that matter. And therefore, people who are suggesting ways to make both vigor and rapids and/or other skills easily obtainable are wasting their time because it's not the point in ZOS' eyes. Rather the opposite.

silvereyes wrote: »

Customers don't make purchase decisions in a vacuum.

I'll make another statement that is again not backed up by data, but crown store purchases are often made in unthought, spontaneous process, based on temptation, on fear to miss out - hence the limited time offers - and on frustration. The "rapids" change is imho directly aimed at the "frustration" incentive.

Noggin_the_Nog

esotoon wrote: »

the change still makes no sense, because it would be faster to get Vigor if you have Rapids first, than it is to get Rapids if you have Vigor first.

JoeCapricorn

Moving Rapid Maneuver behind a PVP grind created an artificial inconvenience. It does not matter if this was the intention or not, the result is plain to see. This change affected a large number of players. A sizable fraction never played PVP, and so even on their main they do not have Rapid Maneuver any longer. It is not unreasonable to think that a sliver of players would rather spend 3000 crowns to at least get Rapids back on their main. There may even be a sliver of players who spend that much per alt to get Rapid Maneuver back on all of them. Whether that was the intention or not cannot be known, but the effects are subject to fair criticism.

But add the timing of the new consumables and it still makes me wonder. Doesn't necessarily mean an absolute conclusion, but there are two major pieces of evidence toward that notion. The "official" non-answer which completely ignored the existence of valid compromises also seemed off. I still don't even know what it means for them to be happy with how this change is performing, does it mean they are happy with how many players are using Vigor? I know they are able to see metrics on virtually everything, right down to how often specific sets get used, so perhaps that includes skill usage. But wouldn't they have been able to see how many players also used Rapid Maneuver before the switch as well and thought maybe a compromise would have been better?

I don't think I have been too harsh in my criticism of ZOS over the change to Rapid Maneuver, however. I mean, the change only resulted in me feeling depressed whenever I played ESO for a bit and it wasn't one I was able to adapt to yet. I still hope I adapt someday but I would rather they commit to a compromise instead.

Elvenheart

Seeing the reveal of Shalodor’s Shrouded Realm in the last ESO Live made me finally create that traditional Elminster-esque wizard I’ve always wanted. I did that during the Lost Treasures event and have used the event dailies (it was funny watching him creep along on his mount and miss the harrowstorms and world bosses a lot), and then the daily random dungeon and random battleground finder to level him. As of yesterday he has gotten to Level 46 and he finally reached Level 5 in assault. He still has a long way to go in his daily stable training because I’ve been alternating between increasing speed and bag space each day.

I don’t think I feel up doing the battlegrounds with all my post-50 characters that don’t have it, so I really hope they lower the requirement to get Rapids to 2, 3, or even 4 instead of 5. I don’t have and probably never will have a single character with Level 10 in the skill lines (I reluctantly got one character to Level 7 a looooong time ago for Caltrops), so I couldn’t buy the skill lines even if I wanted to go that route, and that would cost WAY too much for all my alts.

And I think it’s important to note that when I’ve engaged in activities to level the lines in the past, I never complained on the forums about having to do that. I’m only posting now because ZOS has taken a skill that was formerly easy to get and has made it harder to get for seemingly no good reason, and they say they are happy with it the way it is now even though so many are players are not. As I’ve said before, I’m happy that people now have easier access to Vigor, but I’m not happy that Rapids is now harder to get, and I don’t understand why those two things have to be connected.

Sturmfaenger

I have never used vigor. But I have used rapids on all my chars. Now my small chars move like snails. For me for no reason. I would swap it back with vigor ASAP if I could.

JoeCapricorn

On Reddit, apparently someone did Battlegrounds for a few hours and only one game had no one throwing insults around because people were playing BGs to get back Rapid Maneuver on characters. Other players that stated they were only in there to level up Assault were flamed because of it. (source: https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/ifp5et/rapid_maneuver_has_been_changed_to_level_5_on/)

Gee, I wonder why I haven't gotten around to earning back Rapid Maneuver by now...

HMMMMMM

Because I am honestly currently of a fragile state of mind where even the slightest insult could send my mood into a tailspin and I would much rather avoid that entirely and spend my time in ESO doing things that are relaxing and fun rather than anger other players by playing characters not built for PVP in Battlegrounds to level up a skill that gets me around faster.

Spending the time in Cyrodiil would take even longer and would be far more frustrating due to the lack of Rapid Maneuver. It would be annoying at best to ride around trying to reach fights only to miss the offensive tic because it took me 30% longer to get from Arrius to Chalman lumbermill as the rest of my group gets there and flips the flag before I am even caught up. That's not even to say how irritating it would be to claw my way back to the fight if I get ganked and was already on a timer for Forward Camps and the keep nearby is under attack so I have to res at Arrius.

The only shortcut, the only way around the pain in the butt gameplay, is to spend 3000 crowns per alt just to get Rapid Maneuver back, or live without Rapids and hope they change their minds and make it easier to obtain (or free like it was before) one day.

So let's review: Pain in the butt Battlegrounds and potentially getting mean whispers, pain in the butt horse simulator in Cyrodiil, or pricey crowns (which would total 33,000 crowns on all of my alts without Rapids). I'd rather do NONE of those.

So yeah, I am vocal here, nearly two months later, because this is really my best option. I am still hopeful they return Rapid Maneuver to being easy to get.

It is my hope that with more people saying how they are still ticked off about this change, the more likely ZOS will come to some kind of compromise that at least tries to make everyone happy.

Jaraal

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

It is my hope that with more people saying how they are still ticked off about this change, the more likely ZOS will come to some kind of compromise that at least tries to make everyone happy.

It didn't work with them throwing away decades of Bosmer stealth lore to give them a PvP only passive instead.

ZOS is well known for standing their ground on their vision, regardless of what the players think or say about it.

silvereyes

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

I still hope I adapt someday but I would rather they commit to a compromise instead.

On that note, a tip for anyone annoyed about not having Rapids for doing writs: if you get your character at sprint speed cap, the time to run between the drop-off crates and the writ board in Vivec City, compared to the time it takes to mount, cast Rapids and ride, then dismount, is about the same, if not faster.

For any that are not sure how to get to speed cap (+100% normal run speed), there are lots of ways:

• Sprinting +40%
• Coward's Gear set or other Major Expedition buff source +30%
• Medium Armor Athletics Passive +3% per slot (+21% max)
• Swift Jewelry (+7% for gold per slot, +6% for purple - e.g. Exemplary Swift Ring - per slot)
• Ring of the Wild Hunt (+45% + 7% Swift)
• Steed Mundus stone +10%
• Jailbreaker set or other Minor Expedition buff source +10%
• Fiord's Legacy set +15%
• Windrunner CP buff (120 points into the Lover) +2%
• Orc racial Swift Warrior passive +10%

Any combination that adds up to +100% or more will get you at cap.

For any dedicated crafting characters at CP160 or above, I recommend sprinting + Coward's Gear + 7 piece medium armor Athletics + Steed mundus as a low-cost, low-time-investment option (40+30+21+10=101). You can pick up Coward's Gear fairly cheaply from Guild Stores, and it can even be all green for the same Major Expedition 5-piece buff.

P.S. The comparison was done using a fully-trained horse (+60% mounted speed) with Windrunner passive (+2% mounted speed) and Major Gallop (Rapids, +30% mounted speed). If your horse isn't fully trained in speed, sprinting at speed cap will almost certainly be faster. Running time was just around 9 seconds. Mounting/dismounting time was about 1.25 seconds each, and riding time was about 7 seconds).

Edit: if your dedicated crafting character doesn't have level 50 Medium Armor, you can get pretty close to cap with just Steed Mundus + 5 Coward's Gear + 5 Fiord's Legacy. If you really need those last +5% speed, a single Exemplary Swift Ring or Necklace will do the trick.

DarcyMardin

I’ve cancelled one of my accounts ESO+ because of this and that account is not being played by me at all now. My main ESO+ account has several months to run, but I won’t be renewing unless they come to some sort of compromise on this issue. It’s the principle of the thing — having a skill I’ve used on all my characters every day since closed beta taken away and forcing a PvP grind to get back something that I earned long ago — that shouldn’t happen in this game.

As for my 3rd account with 7 new lowbie characters, made just before this change happened and they all lost Rapids, I sign them in once a day to get their horse training and sign them out again. I tried the slow-horse PvP crawl and felt nothing but frustration and anger. Sorry, but at 72 years young, I’ve got better things to do with my time.

OOJIMMY

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

That would require doing that kind of a grind on 11 additional characters. It isn't as easy as doing just the tutorial quests either, Assault rank 5 requires 98,000 AP. That takes hours.

I don't have the time, motivation and energy to do that kind of grind on 11 characters.

I play ESO as an escape from reality, to destress, and Rapid Maneuver is a long-standing part of my gameplay. It's how I move around whenever I am on a mount. I have it on every bar on every character.

I have done the tutorial quests and it got me to Assault Level: 2. Whoop dee doo. If they required Assault level 3 for Rapids, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But it is Assault level 5.

I don't have the time or mental energy to grind that out on all of my other alts. I am not going to. So I hope they change it back or find a compromise that makes everyone happy.

Many of my characters aren't built for PVP, they are mules and have no skillpoints allocated to weapons or armor. Just crafting. There is no way they would be able to get Assault to 5. But Rapid Maneuver forms a basic method of mobility. It allows me to get to a bank NPC (and when applicable) an Outlaw Hideout just to unload stuff or sell stuff on a guild trader.

It allows new characters to move around without feeling like their mounts are made of molasses. It will be 55 days before my lowbie gets 60 in speed.

Even then, 60 speed feels too slow. I like Rapids just to go faster. I just like going faster. You know what I would rather do? Grind for 11 other Rings of the Wild Hunt

[Edited for removed content] [Further edited to fix some grammar issues caused by previous edit]

Hours? Just go in on prime time during this double ap and defend/ attack with siege

SydneyGrey

There were so many other ways to do this change that would have made 100% of the players happy, and ZOS intentionally ignored all of it, which is disrespectful to their players, in my opinion.

My personal opinion is that Rapids should be moved to the first unlock in the Soul Magic skill line, or the first unlock in the Fighter's Guild skill line.
It could also take the place of Siege Shield.
Any of those ideas would make EVERYBODY happy, because Vigor would stay where it is now.
There is zero reason why it has to be unlocked at Assault level 5.

SilverBride

SydneyGrey wrote: »

There were so many other ways to do this change that would have made 100% of the players happy, and ZOS intentionally ignored all of it, which is disrespectful to their players, in my opinion.

My personal opinion is that Rapids should be moved to the first unlock in the Soul Magic skill line, or the first unlock in the Fighter's Guild skill line.
It could also take the place of Siege Shield.
Any of those ideas would make EVERYBODY happy, because Vigor would stay where it is now.
There is zero reason why it has to be unlocked at Assault level 5.

You are never going to make 100% of players happy with any change, ever. And there will be some who will not want their Soul Magic or Fighter's Guild skills messed with, either.

Your best hope is a compromise that doesn't affect any other skills, such as leaving rapids where it is, but unlocking it at level 3 or 4.

And this has absolutely nothing to do with disrespect.

JoeCapricorn

Unlocking it at Assault 3 would be a good compromise. Not my favored one, but it would show at least a willingness to compromise with the community.

I need to see that willingness to feel more comfortable with resubscribing.

I don't think swapping it with Siege Shield would necessarily be a bad thing for those who use Siege Shield, however. For one, Rapids would make it easier by default to earn Siege Shield, and most people that use Siege Shield are doing so in a PVP environment anyway.

To me, however, that seems to be the only justifiable swap Rapids could make. Soul Magic wouldn't make sense, it's got nothing to do with soul trapping at all, and Fighter's Guild has 4 skills already, switching one would just be a bit too messy (and would likely result in a similar controversy, as those skills are not PVP-exclusive skills either)

So to summarize, these are the options:

1. Switch Rapid Maneuver with Siege Shield. Siege Shield becomes an Assault skill and requires Assault 5 (or 3, if they decide to lower it for that one). Rapid Maneuver goes back to being free from the start and becomes a Support skill. This would alleviate the complaints about its change without reversing the change made to make Vigor freely available. We CAN have both! The impact moving Siege Shield is probably minimal as it is already a PVP exclusive skill and wouldn't really affect anyone who wished to use it. I have yet to actually see anyone even post something saying that Siege Shield is essential and making more PVP required would be a hardship.

2. Lower the requirements for Rapid Maneuver to 2. This doesn't touch Siege Shield but also results in the best of both worlds - free Rapids and Vigor. The side effect is more cosmetic, Assault would be the first skill-line to have two skills unlocked from the start. Balance wise this does not affect anything. Negative player impact is virtually zero.

3. Lower the requirements for Rapid Maneuver to 3. This lowers the wall to regaining Rapid Maneuver considerably. No longer would players who dislike PVP have to consider spending crowns to get Rapids back, regardless of whether that was the intent of the change all along or not. The process of earning back Rapids isn't nearly as time consuming or overwhelming, and would be possible to achieve just by entering Cyrodiil and doing some town quests. These would still take some time. If people are willing to PVP, it would also cut down the grind from 7 hours to about 30 minutes depending on what activity they do (AvA or BG)

4. Revert the change and lower the requirements for Vigor to Assault 3 (or 2) - essentially undoing the change that was done in the first place, but ZOS did say they had no plans to revert the change.

5. Swap Vigor with Siege Shield, but again with Siege Shield as the second skill in Assault and Rapids being free.

6. Leave things the way they are, alienating numerous loyal players who have subscribed for years in most cases and sometimes even on multiple accounts, potentially losing a good chunk of revenue in the process, all the while players wonder if the motivation for the change was to get superspenders to pay to get Rapids back, or to encourage people to buy the new consumables from the crown store. This path is the absolute least likely to generate any goodwill for the company, and is in fact the crappiest one of them all. Please, ZOS, don't be crappy.

SilverBride

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Unlocking it at Assault 3 would be a good compromise. Not my favored one, but it would show at least a willingness to compromise with the community.

The reason I favor this is that it won't affect any other skills. Because of that I think it's the one they would be most likely to consider.

JoeCapricorn

There's a reason that particular one is my second favorite one. Easiest to do, logistically, and it would actually result in many of my alts getting it back because I didn't avoid PVP on them, I just didn't do it nearly as much as my main.

Nomadic_Atmoran

DarcyMardin wrote: »

I’ve cancelled one of my accounts ESO+ because of this and that account is not being played by me at all now. My main ESO+ account has several months to run, but I won’t be renewing unless they come to some sort of compromise on this issue. It’s the principle of the thing — having a skill I’ve used on all my characters every day since closed beta taken away and forcing a PvP grind to get back something that I earned long ago — that shouldn’t happen in this game.

As for my 3rd account with 7 new lowbie characters, made just before this change happened and they all lost Rapids, I sign them in once a day to get their horse training and sign them out again. I tried the slow-horse PvP crawl and felt nothing but frustration and anger. Sorry, but at 72 years young, I’ve got better things to do with my time.

All the proof ZOS needs that this was not a bad decision at all.

Jaraal

All of these fine suggestions are based on the assumption that ZOS had no idea the players would unhappy with having Rapids taken away from them. Well, they have stated in an interview that they were well aware that the decision would be controversial before they even implemented it.

They already considered all these options before we even got to see the change on the test server. So rather than suggesting how they can change their own minds, why not try to understand why they made the decision (about Rapids, not Vigor) that they did.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

And this has absolutely nothing to do with disrespect.

Got to disagree with you there.

ZOS took away a skill that many people already had when they didn't need to. The only way to get it back is to invest more time. That is disrespectful of their players and their time right there.

ZOS stated that they have been listening to feedback, yet all they have responded with is repeating the reason for why Vigor was moved. Not one of the many threads started about the change to Rapids was about the Vigor move. They have been about why Rapids is now harder to get. Treating players like mushrooms (keeping them in the dark and feeding them excrement), over an issue that is causing many players a problem, and some to even leave the game, whilst pretending you are 'listening' is the height of disrespect.

ZOS have been promising to look at introducing a Stamina heal for a long time. They were planning on revamping the skill lines so that they would be more like the Warden/Necro lines, with one for DPS, one for healing, one for tanking, and within that introduce stam heals . Instead they have come up, like they always do, with a band aid solution that is enough to tick their 'todo list', and fob people off by saying "look you have a stam heal at low level now", even though it is not a good stam heal at low levels, nor the type of stam heal solution people had been asking for. Again, this make-do attitude is disrespectful of their playerbase.

So yes, it has absolutely everything to do with disrespect.

JoeCapricorn

I personally wasn't even aware of this change until after it was already implemented.

Yet they made a point to ask people their thoughts on the changes to light attacks. They asked for feedback for that, a major change that would have affected a lot of people. When people indicated their dislike for it, they opted not to go through with the change. Why?

There were alternatives presented, much better ways to have handled the change, that would not have affected Rapid Maneuver or angered a lot of players. All of those ignored. Why?

Changing light attacks would not have presented an artificial inconvenience that could be overcome through in-game work or purchases via the crown store. The change to Rapid Maneuver, however, precisely creates an artificial inconvenience, which is a fact regardless of whether that was the intent or not.

Truth is, I am furious. I seem civil, but that is me being my best self editor. Sometimes I have naughty words in these replies and edit them out. *** ***. The main reason is I am rightfully angry and I want my concerns to be taken seriously and addressed beyond a rubberstamped non-answer that seemingly ignored the entire discussion.

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

And this has absolutely nothing to do with disrespect.

Got to disagree with you there.

ZOS took away a skill that many people already had when they didn't need to. The only way to get it back is to invest more time. That is disrespectful of their players and their time right there.

ZOS stated that they have been listening to feedback, yet all they have responded with is repeating the reason for why Vigor was moved.

This is where we disagree. Yes, a skill that some people used was moved to a slot that would take more time to regain, but I don't think this was their ultimate goal when making this change. I can't imagine they decided to make Rapids a lot harder to get just to hurt some players.

As far as listening to feedback, I think they have. You realize they play, too, and monitor these changes in game, not just on the forums. My experience has been that not one single person has mentioned this change in guild chat. Not one. And I have only heard one person complain about it in zone chat during the Event, and they were quickly shot down.

This may not be your experience, but it is mine, and it may very well be theirs. If so, then they would probably assume it's not that major a problem for that many players. Just speculation, but something to consider.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

Yes, a skill that some people used was moved to a slot that would take more time to regain, but I don't think this was their ultimate goal when making this change. I can't imagine they decided to make Rapids a lot harder to get just to hurt some players.

It doesn't matter what their goal was. The end result was players had a skill taken away from them, and the only way to get it back was to have to sacrifice their own time. There was no reward for this extra effort, no benefit, let alone any apology or explanation. It needed them to invest time just to get them back to exactly the same place they were before. Hence why it is disrespectful of players time.

As far as listening to feedback, I think they have.

What evidence do you have for this?

My evidence against:

Numerous threads in the PTS going unanswered.
Numerous suggestions on the PTS that would have allowed the Vigor change without a negative impact on anyone ignored.
Numerous threads on the main forum going unanswered.
Numerous suggestions on the main forum that would have allowed the Vigor change without a negative impact on anyone ignored.
Gina posting a completely tone deaf response after over a month of "listening" that didn't address any of the concerns/questions actually being asked.

You realize they play, too, and monitor these changes in game, not just on the forums. My experience has been that not one single person has mentioned this change in guild chat. Not one. And I have only heard one person complain about it in zone chat during the Event, and they were quickly shot down.

We can both speculate on how many people are affected by this. We have completely different experiences in how much we have 'heard' in game of people complaining about this. So there is no point arguing on this basis.

What I think we can both probably agree on though, is that neither of us have once heard in zone chat: "Boy, I sure wish they would swap Rapids with Vigor". So if we are going to use zone chat as the basis for what players do/do not want, you need to take both sides of that equation into account.

If so, then they would probably assume it's not that major a problem for that many players. Just speculation, but something to consider.

2 months on and this thread is still getting new people posting in it saying it is a problem. Add that to the many who voiced their concerns in the PTS threads, and even if we were to say that no one said anything about it in game, that is still a big indicator that there is a problem.