Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

SilverBride

I wish they would just lock this thread. It stopped being productive long ago, and all it is doing is causing tempers to flare.

TequilaFire

Edited on advice of my personal attorney.

allhailskippy

Thank you ZoS for making me grind through battlegrounds to get AP. It's so much fun taking my useless toons go in, and be trash.

Thank you for pairing me with groups that have multiple heals. Because that's what we need. Multiple healers in a group that couldn't kill a freaking melon if they tried.

Thank you ZoS for making it so that half the indicators on my teammates aren't there, so I just have to GUESS where they are.

This was such a well though out plan. I'm soooooooo glad they did this. It's soooo much fun being garbage, and providing nothing to my teammates who probably actually want to be there.

Change this. Change it fast.

Nobody wants this trash.

allhailskippy

Kwoung wrote: »

This thread is still a thing? I just took 3 level 10's crafting daily chars in crafted gear out over the weekend solo and each earned it in less than an hour. My guild also hosts a weekly Cyro run and everyone that comes, mostly PVE characters in PVE gear, usually get everything they need, Rapids, Warhorn, etc... Most of them were scared of Cyro at first, then they saw how easy it is and that even if you do die, someone will rezz you generally and there are no consequences anyways, so they all end up having fun and joining weekly on different characters to get multiple 50 transmute stone rewards for the campaign. Not to mention we get enough rewards of the worthy to open one a day all week for the additional transmute stone rewards, which usually adds up to about 150 extra transmute stones a month.

The point is that many of us don't want to do PVP on baby toons.

I don't care how easy you feel it is. They took a huge QoL improvement away from us that was 100% unnecessary to change.

YOU may have a guild that does PVP stuff. Not all of us do, or want to. Why is that so hard to understand?

BUT IS SOOOO EASY.

So is getting master angler. Doesn't mean that it's for everyone.

allhailskippy

SilverBride wrote: »

I wish they would just lock this thread. It stopped being productive long ago, and all it is doing is causing tempers to flare.

Might be all that PVP we're being forced to do.

I don't like doing it BECAUSE it makes me angry.

And yet, my baby toons all move like they're in slow motion now. And they don't seem to be getting any faster. So here we are. Angry. Slow and angry.

SilverBride

allhailskippy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I wish they would just lock this thread. It stopped being productive long ago, and all it is doing is causing tempers to flare.

Might be all that PVP we're being forced to do.

I don't like doing it BECAUSE it makes me angry.

And yet, my baby toons all move like they're in slow motion now. And they don't seem to be getting any faster. So here we are. Angry. Slow and angry.

Rapids was never intended as a tool for new characters. It was intended to help PvPers get around Cyrodiil because of how large that zone is. The fact that some players used it for PvE on new characters is not a factor because that is not it's intended purpose.

allhailskippy

SilverBride wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I wish they would just lock this thread. It stopped being productive long ago, and all it is doing is causing tempers to flare.

Might be all that PVP we're being forced to do.

I don't like doing it BECAUSE it makes me angry.

And yet, my baby toons all move like they're in slow motion now. And they don't seem to be getting any faster. So here we are. Angry. Slow and angry.

Rapids was never intended as a tool for new characters. It was intended to help PvPers get around Cyrodiil because of how large that zone is. The fact that some players used it for PvE on new characters is not a factor because that is not it's intended purpose.

Who gives a rats ass what it's original intended purpose was. We've had it for YEARS, and they put it behind a huge time wall for no reason.

If they changed it 5 years ago, then fine. But why now? What possible purpose could it serve except to *** us off?

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

Rapids was never intended as a tool for new characters. It was intended to help PvPers get around Cyrodiil because of how large that zone is. The fact that some players used it for PvE on new characters is not a factor because that is not it's intended purpose.

It's intended purpose when put into the game during development has no baring on anything.

Since the launch of the game:

The skill has been available at level 10 (earlier since the introduction of daily rewards).
The skill has been able to be used in PVE Zones.
The skill has been helpful to many players, both in PVP and PVE.
The game mechanics have not blocked its use by low level players.
The skill's description has made no mention of it only to be used in PVP Zones and by higher level characters.

At no point since the game went live has Rapids been shown to be or in any way considered to be a PVP only skill, and one that shouldn't be used by low level characters.

ArchangelIsraphel

SilverBride wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I wish they would just lock this thread. It stopped being productive long ago, and all it is doing is causing tempers to flare.

Might be all that PVP we're being forced to do.

I don't like doing it BECAUSE it makes me angry.

And yet, my baby toons all move like they're in slow motion now. And they don't seem to be getting any faster. So here we are. Angry. Slow and angry.

Rapids was never intended as a tool for new characters. It was intended to help PvPers get around Cyrodiil because of how large that zone is. The fact that some players used it for PvE on new characters is not a factor because that is not it's intended purpose.

Given that you can enter cyrodil at level ten, I'd argue that it was most certainly intended as a tool for new characters in order to speed up their mounts so that they could participate in PVP/PVE. Especially since there is an under 50 instance of Cyrodil specifically for lower level players. By default, this means that those who acquire the skill to get around cyro, will use it to get around in PVE areas, too. There's really no in between since Cyro is a PVE/PVP zone.

ETA esotoon made many of these points already, did not see their post. Agree with them whole heartedly.

Linaleah

SilverBride wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I wish they would just lock this thread. It stopped being productive long ago, and all it is doing is causing tempers to flare.

Might be all that PVP we're being forced to do.

I don't like doing it BECAUSE it makes me angry.

And yet, my baby toons all move like they're in slow motion now. And they don't seem to be getting any faster. So here we are. Angry. Slow and angry.

Rapids was never intended as a tool for new characters. It was intended to help PvPers get around Cyrodiil because of how large that zone is. The fact that some players used it for PvE on new characters is not a factor because that is not it's intended purpose.

yeeees, because new characters never try to get around Cyrodil, even though you are sent there at lvl 10 and might actualy want to PLAY there at lvl 10 (that under lvl 50 dedicated Cyrodil campaign must be a figment of my imagination, no way cyrodil is meant for anyone who hasn't spent months leveling their horse or grinding battlegrounds that didn't exist for years that they may not even enjoy as pvp mode, while rapids were there all along).

that's totally a nonfactor that new characters you might actualy LIKE to pvp, informaly or otherwise - are now left behind because the tool that used to be offered to them to alleviate the slowness of the still leveling horse - is now behind a slower grind SINCE THEY CANNOT KEEP UP AS MUCH ANYMORE.

and before you bring up other people using rapids. I've been in groups that use rapids. you can still fall behind with a slower horse, so as the group rapids further and further away from you, you have absolutely ZERO chance catching up. with your own rapids, at least it doesn't take as long to get closer, but now you get a slow horse AND no rapids of your own.

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

At no point since the game went live has Rapids been shown to be or in any way considered to be a PVP only skill, and one that shouldn't be used by low level characters.

Nor has rapids ever been shown to be a skill intended to help new players and PvE'rs get around faster. If this was its purpose it would be a world skill, and not in a PvP skill line.

Linaleah

SilverBride wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

At no point since the game went live has Rapids been shown to be or in any way considered to be a PVP only skill, and one that shouldn't be used by low level characters.

Nor has rapids ever been shown to be a skill to help new players and PvE'rs get around faster. If this was it's purpose it would be a world skill, and not in a PvP skill line.

with that reasoning. DO explain to me WHY then vigor is in a pvp skill line, even though ZoS stated, themselves that they wanted to help stamina characters in PVE and that is why they made it immediately accesible yet kept it as part of PVP skill line instead of placing it in one of the world skill lines?

you have GOT to make more effort with your excuses then that.

Psiion

Greetings,

After review, we've had to remove a few non-constructive posts for Baiting and Bashing. Please keep in mind that both Baiting and Bashing are against the Forum's Community Rules, and remember to keep disagreements civil and constructive.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

No. But I am saying that when a skill was intended for one purpose (even though some may have been used for a different purpose) that is the purpose they will take into consideration with any changes they make.

OK, I can see that point. However, there are a couple issues with it.

1: The developers have not stated that it was intended only for PVP. That was a community manager who said that. So we do not know for certain whether it was, or if that was actually a consideration when changing. However, lets say that you are right and it was only intended for PVP. Well what has changed about Cyrodiil, to mean it is no longer needed at level 10? The map isn't any smaller. The mounts aren't any faster. You can still PVP at level 10. So if it was such an essential skill for PVP that it was put in the first slot, why isn't it still that same essential skill now? Why is it suddenly harder to get?

2: No matter what the intended purpose, for 6+ years, the player base haven't been given any indication that this was it's intended purposes, nor have they been stopped or discouraged from using it throughout the game. For many it has become an essential skill. A skill that makes the game more enjoyable. For some, a skill that means that they will either play or not play the game. So no matter what it's intended purpose was, the way the player base has actually used it and become accustomed to using it for over the past 6+ years should far outweigh any thought of it's original intention in any kind of decision.

3: If we are to assume that your theory is right, that any skill in the Assualt or Support skill lines, were 'intended' to be PVP only. Then the logic of it being ok to move Rapids, because it was only ever intended for PVP, doesn't add up when it is being swapped with another skill that according to the same theory, was only ever intended to be used in PVP.

Pevey

If it had been intended for PVP only, they could have easily made it usable only in PVP areas. They intentionally did not.

Nomadic_Atmoran

SilverBride wrote: »

I wish they would just lock this thread. It stopped being productive long ago, and all it is doing is causing tempers to flare.

Probably best to keep it here. Locking it would only push someone to make a new thread.

TaffyIX

c363b wrote: »

The moderators could save a lot of the time they spend editing players' posts if they would simply post an official developers' explanation of why they moved rapids to rank 5 instead of using one of the multiple other suggested methods for making vigor more accessible. It was not necessary for them to make the game less enjoyable for new and PVE players. How can they justify that?

Quite true. In the interim... Another ESO+ subscriber cancelled.

AlnilamE

SilverBride wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Something that's been available for YEARS should not be removed arbitrarily.

It wasn't removed. It was just moved deeper into the skill line. And this is how online gaming works. They have the right to make changes any time they want, without warning, and have zero obligation to even discuss it with the playerbase, let alone ask for their permission.

Is this good business? Yes and no. But it is what it is.

I am sorry this has been so devastating to some. But if I relied so heavily on this skill I'd be working toward unlocking it again. Because I very much doubt it will be changed.

And players have the right to be upset about it. And complain.

And they can choose to stop playing, as several have.

And even if they are working to get it back (which my guildies are, and I'm sure many others), that doesn't invalidate being upset about it.

I got to level 5 on my last character while he still had rapids. And he will now be my last character. I'm done making alts.

Obsidian3

SilverBride wrote: »

Rapids was never intended as a tool for new characters. It was intended to help PvPers get around Cyrodiil because of how large that zone is. The fact that some players used it for PvE on new characters is not a factor because that is not it's intended purpose.

Let's apply your logic to this concept.

Monster Helms and the Undaunted Mettle Passive were never intended for PvP, its was made for completing 4-person dungeons and Trials only...

Is there a tool-tip somewhere that tells us exactly what each skill is intended for? Can I read somewhere exactly how I should be using each skill. I am concerned I might not be using Force-Pulse correctly.

SilverBride

Obsidian3 wrote: »

Monster Helms and the Undaunted Mettle Passive were never intended for PvP, its was made for completing 4-person dungeons and Trials only...

I already explained this once, but I will explain it again. Everything is OK to be used in PvP. All gear, all skills, everything. And this is why.

I am a Sorcerer all the time. So no matter where I am in game, I am still a Sorcerer. So of course I can use the same gear and skills as I choose. I don't stop being a Sorcerer because I entered Cyrodiil.

BUT... I am only a PvP'r in Cyrodiil. So of course some skills are going to be tailored just for PvP.

Linaleah

SilverBride wrote: »

Obsidian3 wrote: »

Monster Helms and the Undaunted Mettle Passive were never intended for PvP, its was made for completing 4-person dungeons and Trials only...

I already explained this once, but I will explain it again. Everything is OK to be used in PvP. All gear, all skills, everything. And this is why.

I am a Sorcerer all the time. So no matter where I am in game, I am still a Sorcerer. So of course I can use the same gear and skills as I choose. I don't stop being a Sorcerer because I entered Cyrodiil.

BUT... I am only a PvP'r in Cyrodiil. So of course some skills are going to be tailored just for PvP.

and you just arbitrary decide which ones? because it IS very much arbitrary - your claim that rapids is a pvp skill. there ARE pvp only skills in those skill lines, however, rapids, purge, horn, vigor that you are so happy to have on your alts to use in PVE (hypocritical much), barrier and at least one morph of caltrops - are NOT those pvp specific skills.

and.

you STILL haven't addressed the fact that not having rapids early on, hurts low level PVP characters even more so then it does pve characters. you know... those lvl 10 characters who do not have their horses leveled up yet, but are sent into Cyrodil and would like to STAY in Cyrodil - but are significantly slowed down for the duration of that grind. you know... those people you claim rapids are for.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

I already explained this once, but I will explain it again. Everything is OK to be used in PvP. All gear, all skills, everything. And this is why.

I am a Sorcerer all the time. So no matter where I am in game, I am still a Sorcerer. So of course I can use the same gear and skills as I choose. I don't stop being a Sorcerer because I entered Cyrodiil.

BUT... I am only a PvP'r in Cyrodiil. So of course some skills are going to be tailored just for PvP.

Except, you can PVP in every zone, not just in Cyrodiil. So using your own logic, no matter where you are in the game (with the exception of dungeon, trials and delves), you are still a PVPer, so you should therefore be able to use any so called 'PVP skills' that you choose

SilverBride

Linaleah wrote: »

you STILL haven't addressed the fact that not having rapids early on, hurts low level PVP characters even more so then it does pve characters.

I never even brought that up, so why would I have to address it? Besides, I don't really have to explain anything to anyone.

I think the change was a good thing. Period.

Elvenheart

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Obsidian3 wrote: »

Monster Helms and the Undaunted Mettle Passive were never intended for PvP, its was made for completing 4-person dungeons and Trials only...

I already explained this once, but I will explain it again. Everything is OK to be used in PvP. All gear, all skills, everything. And this is why.

I am a Sorcerer all the time. So no matter where I am in game, I am still a Sorcerer. So of course I can use the same gear and skills as I choose. I don't stop being a Sorcerer because I entered Cyrodiil.

BUT... I am only a PvP'r in Cyrodiil. So of course some skills are going to be tailored just for PvP.

and you just arbitrary decide which ones? because it IS very much arbitrary - your claim that rapids is a pvp skill. there ARE pvp only skills in those skill lines, however, rapids, purge, horn, vigor that you are so happy to have on your alts to use in PVE (hypocritical much), barrier and at least one morph of caltrops - are NOT those pvp specific skills.

and.

you STILL haven't addressed the fact that not having rapids early on, hurts low level PVP characters even more so then it does pve characters. you know... those lvl 10 characters who do not have their horses leveled up yet, but are sent into Cyrodil and would like to STAY in Cyrodil - but are significantly slowed down for the duration of that grind. you know... those people you claim rapids are for.

Indeed...based on this argument, no one should use Vigor outside of Cyrodiil, IC, or battlegrounds because like Rapids, it must only be a PVP skill. Surely you can see that claiming this or that skill is meant only for PVP is simply not a good argument to make because it doesn’t make any sense unless that skill only worked in PVP areas.

Czeri

esotoon wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

No. But I am saying that when a skill was intended for one purpose (even though some may have been used for a different purpose) that is the purpose they will take into consideration with any changes they make.

OK, I can see that point. However, there are a couple issues with it.

1: The developers have not stated that it was intended only for PVP. That was a community manager who said that. So we do not know for certain whether it was, or if that was actually a consideration when changing. However, lets say that you are right and it was only intended for PVP. Well what has changed about Cyrodiil, to mean it is no longer needed at level 10? The map isn't any smaller. The mounts aren't any faster. You can still PVP at level 10. So if it was such an essential skill for PVP that it was put in the first slot, why isn't it still that same essential skill now? Why is it suddenly harder to get?

2: No matter what the intended purpose, for 6+ years, the player base haven't been given any indication that this was it's intended purposes, nor have they been stopped or discouraged from using it throughout the game. For many it has become an essential skill. A skill that makes the game more enjoyable. For some, a skill that means that they will either play or not play the game. So no matter what it's intended purpose was, the way the player base has actually used it and become accustomed to using it for over the past 6+ years should far outweigh any thought of it's original intention in any kind of decision.

3: If we are to assume that your theory is right, that any skill in the Assualt or Support skill lines, were 'intended' to be PVP only. Then the logic of it being ok to move Rapids, because it was only ever intended for PVP, doesn't add up when it is being swapped with another skill that according to the same theory, was only ever intended to be used in PVP.

When the game started you could have up to 60 skill points on a horse, not 180. Most people were using their points for inventory, so RM was actually important for speeding up moving around. Ever since training a particular mount up to 50 times (plus 10 extra points that came pre-filled on an expensive mount) was changed to training an alt's riding skill up to 180 times, meaning everyone could have full speed, stamina, and inventory at the same time, RM stopped being important. And all the talk of "we've had this for 6+ years" is not true. You had no way of having a mount with full stamina and full speed with RM on top for at least the first two years of the game.

esotoon

Czeri wrote: »

When the game started you could have up to 60 skill points on a horse, not 180. Most people were using their points for inventory, so RM was actually important for speeding up moving around. Ever since training a particular mount up to 50 times (plus 10 extra points that came pre-filled on an expensive mount) was changed to training an alt's riding skill up to 180 times, meaning everyone could have full speed, stamina, and inventory at the same time, RM stopped being important. And all the talk of "we've had this for 6+ years" is not true. You had no way of having a mount with full stamina and full speed with RM on top for at least the first two years of the game.

I never once stated that you have been able to have a full speed, stam and RM for 6+ years. I said you have had access to RM.

The speed of your mount is irrelevant for new characters. Unless you have spent 60 days ahead of time fully levelling your mounts on multiple characters, your character starts out with the same mount speed as at the start of the game, 6+ years ago. Less so if you bought a horse with extra mount speed from the get go at the stables. So yeah, Rapids is still just as important as it was..

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

The speed of your mount is irrelevant for new characters.

Yes it is. They aren't meant to go full speed right from the start.

zergbase_ESO

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I wish they would just lock this thread. It stopped being productive long ago, and all it is doing is causing tempers to flare.

Probably best to keep it here. Locking it would only push someone to make a new thread.

They can lock it again. All this post becomes is people arguing with each other. ZoS by now knows the QQing of the lazy that don't want pvp for a pvp skill or farm it. They will probably change it back. This change doesn't effect me so I can careless what they do for it lol.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

The speed of your mount is irrelevant for new characters.

Yes it is. They aren't meant to go full speed right from the start.

Please read the full paragraph and the quote it was responding to. I was replying to someone who stated that Rapids is no longer important because you can level your horse to 60 points in speed and stam. I was saying that the speed level of your horse is irrelevant because the for new characters, the horse speed you start out on, is the same as it was when the game started (i.e. zero). And therefore Rapids is just as important a skill today as it was 6+ years ago.

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

The speed of your mount is irrelevant for new characters.

Yes it is. They aren't meant to go full speed right from the start.

Please read the full paragraph and the quote it was responding to. I was replying to someone who stated that Rapids is no longer important because you can level your horse to 60 points in speed and stam. I was saying that the speed level of your horse is irrelevant because the for new characters, the horse speed you start out on, is the same as it was when the game started. And therefore Rapids is just as important a skill today as it was 6+ years ago.

I know what you were referring to, but your statement as I quoted pretty much summed up my opinion on the subject. [snip] They shouldn't have the best gear, and all their skills maxed, and full CP. Nor should they be rushing around the world at the speed of light. They need to level and develop their character, not start off fully decked. And that includes mount speed.

[Edited to remove Baiting]