Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

Sylvermynx

Eh. it was "removed" because so many who used it really don't want to have to pvp to get it back. So that's "removed" in a way. Some of us wouldn't pvp to save our lives (*raises hand*) - yes, I did pvp in WoW years back, on a pvp server in a friend's guild. I wasn't great at it though I did manage to hold my own (more or less I "got gud"), but I hated every minute of it - it's not what I consider fun at all.

This sort of change can be said to be "expected" in an MMO (as in, this is NOT my first rodeo....) but there's a huge feeling of betrayal when something like this happens.

There will be people who never play this game again because of this. I'm not one, since I never used rapids, and I've now come to the conclusion that vigor is for me fair useless. I've tried it on stam toons from about level 10 to level 20 - It heals fine, but gobbles stam. Bad trade.... by the time I really need a stam heal, I'm out of stam on lowbies.....

SilverBride

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh. it was "removed" because so many who used it really don't want to have to pvp to get it back.

Being removed means it is no longer present. Rapids is still there. The fact that some players don't want to PvP doesn't make it disappear. That only means that maybe it wasn't as necessary as they claim, or they would have had it back by now.

Jaraal

SilverBride wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh. it was "removed" because so many who used it really don't want to have to pvp to get it back.

Being removed means it is no longer present. Rapids is still there. The fact that some players don't want to PvP doesn't make it disappear. That only means that maybe it wasn't as necessary as they claim, or they would have had it back by now.

Being removed means you can use it for years, and then wake up one day and can no longer use it. The skill you have enjoyed every day now has a locked icon on it.

I can tie your shoelaces together and throw your shoes up on the power lines. They aren't really removed, as you can still see them. All you have to do is go find a long enough ladder, retrieve them, and not get electrocuted in the process.

Also, I'm not sure why you wish to make so many posts telling people how to feel about something that doesn't even affect you in any way, but we do appreciate you bumping this thread and keeping the subject alive for those who do have a dog in this fight.

SilverBride

Jaraal wrote: »

I'm not sure why you wish to make so many posts telling people how to feel about something that doesn't even affect you in any way, but we do appreciate you bumping this thread and keeping the subject alive for those who do have a dog in this fight.

Actually it does affect me, and every player in this game, because now I can get a heal for my stamina characters. I already have it on one.

I hadn't posted in this thread for quite awhile, and to be perfectly honest, it's become spam. Nothing new or constructive has been brought to the table for several pages. That's why I think people should accept that this most likely isn't going to be reverted, and work on unlocking the skill again. If they really want it that bad, they will.

silvereyes

SilverBride wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh. it was "removed" because so many who used it really don't want to have to pvp to get it back.

Being removed means it is no longer present. Rapids is still there. The fact that some players don't want to PvP doesn't make it disappear. That only means that maybe it wasn't as necessary as they claim, or they would have had it back by now.

I think you are confusing what people mean by "necessary". True, it's not a necessary skill to play the game, and it's not necessary that people avoid PvP. But I think people mean that it was a necessary skill for the game to be enjoyable to them.

SilverBride

silvereyes wrote: »

But I think people mean that it was a necessary skill for the game to be enjoyable to them.

All the more reason to work toward getting it back.

I don't like the latest Vampire changes either, but I know the game isn't going to adapt to me, so my only choice is to adapt to it, or quit. And I'm not going to quit.

This doesn't mean you can't make your voices heard. But there is nothing wrong with accepting things in the meantime, and doing what you can to help yourself.

Arunei

SilverBride wrote: »

The impact of this change has been grossly exaggerated. It's a minority of players who ever even used rapids, except in PvP, with many, like myself, who didn't even know it existed before. That is why most of the posts asking to revert the change are by the same handful of players.

Some people may want it, and some people may like it, and some people may have gotten used to it, but no one needs it.

Rapids wasn't taken away. You can get it back. I really wish people would accept that, and take some of the advice given on ways to earn this back to heart, and just go do it.

And what proof do you have that a minority of players ever used it? Because from where I'm standing, it seems the majority of people in this thread and others use it and use it a lot. Just because you and some other people here claim to have never seen others use it outside of PvP doesn't mean anything. The forums don't represent the majority of players, and the number of people you encounter on a day-to-day basis is a tiny fraction of the number of people playing. You shouldn't presume your small sample size really means much of anything at all since the same is true for the forums. You should stop using assumptions like they're fact. I'm fairly sure it's also not just 'the same handful of players' making posts about this for 28 pages now in just this thread alone.

You also have no right to speak on what other players need. None of us need anything in this game. No one needs Vigor, no one needs Rapids, no one needs any one skill. But if another person deems that a skill is needed for them to actually enjoy the game and get the most out of it for their play style, who are you to come in and tell them otherwise? You don't play the game the way they do, and shouldn't act like you have any right to dictate what other players feel is a necessary skill for them to enjoy the game.

And yes, actually, it was taken away. Taken away doesn't mean something was taken permanently, taken away means it was taken away. By your logic if anything was taken away from anyone they'd never get it back ever. And as has been said over and over and over and yet seems to be something people telling others what they do and don't need ignore; if it's not a big deal to get Rapids where it is, it wasn't a big deal to get Vigor when it was in the same slot. But the fact that ZOS felt it IS a problem for a skill that only certain Stam builds would need to be that far in the skill line means that yes, it's a problem for ANY highly sought after and offering a quality of life skill (which Vigor is too, let's be honest, because no one needs Vigor right out of the gate and if it's so easy to get to Rank 5 it's not like you'd be without it for long right?) being that far in the skill line.

And here's the thing; for all you people who either don't care about Rapids or value Vigor more, [snip] Most everyone posting isn't upset about Vigor being moved and indeed agree that Vigor being more readily available is a good thing. What they're upset over is that instead of being made available quicker, Rapids was pushed farther down to a slot that inherently makes getting it back harder.

[snip]

Edits for clarity.

[edited for baiting]

Jaraal

SilverBride wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

I'm not sure why you wish to make so many posts telling people how to feel about something that doesn't even affect you in any way, but we do appreciate you bumping this thread and keeping the subject alive for those who do have a dog in this fight.

Actually it does affect me, and every player in this game, because now I can get a heal for my stamina characters. I already have it on one.

I don't think there's anybody here who feels that Vigor should be taken away from Rank 1. It has been suggested numerous times that the best thing for the players would have been for them to move Vigor and Rapids to Rank 1 and 2, which we can achieve with a 5 minute non-combat quest at our alliance home base. The fact that they put Rapids out of (easy) reach for most demonstrates that it's their desire to monetize it by encouraging folks to buy riding lessons, Alliance War skill lines for their alts, and the upcoming two person mounts.

The real eye opener is that on test you can now buy scrolls in the Crown Store that give you +150% Alliance War skill line gain. So they took away something most have become accustomed to, and are now trying to sell it back to us, for cash. The caveat is that you can make the scrolls for yourself by farming for ultra rare stuff in the game, so it's not entirely a cash monopoly.

What if they took the Vigor you are now enjoying and moved it back to Rank 5 tomorrow? And then told you they'll be happy to sell you some magic scrolls for cash that will help you to grind it back a little bit faster? That's the situation the Rapids users are now faced with. And just for clarity, I have Alliance Rank 10 on my main and enough of my alts have Alliance Rank 5 or higher that it's not really a big deal to me personally. But I will continue to voice my disapproval for manipulative cash grabs that discourage people from playing the game they love.

Thechuckage

Arunei wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The impact of this change has been grossly exaggerated. It's a minority of players who ever even used rapids, except in PvP, with many, like myself, who didn't even know it existed before. That is why most of the posts asking to revert the change are by the same handful of players.

Some people may want it, and some people may like it, and some people may have gotten used to it, but no one needs it.

Rapids wasn't taken away. You can get it back. I really wish people would accept that, and take some of the advice given on ways to earn this back to heart, and just go do it.

And what proof do you have that a minority of players ever used it? Because from where I'm standing, it seems the majority of people in this thread and others use it and use it a lot. Just because you and some other people here claim to have never seen others use it outside of PvP doesn't mean anything. The forums don't represent the majority of players, and the number of people you encounter on a day-to-day basis is a tiny fraction of the number of people playing. You shouldn't presume your small sample size really means much of anything at all since the same is true for the forums. You should stop using assumptions like they're fact. I'm fairly sure it's also not just 'the same handful of players' making posts about this for 28 pages now in just this thread alone.

This makes little sense. You point out that the forums represent a fraction of the game population, which it is. And that the forums cannot give an accurate picture of how used rapids is/was. Then you presume your POV is more valid than Silver's on how much it is used. At that point is has to become a wash, because neither side can accurately show a trend for or against.

After the first few pages, there is most definitely a steep down curve on the number of different names posting on the thread.

Arunei wrote: »

And here's the thing; for all you people who either don't care about Rapids or value Vigor more, [snip] Most everyone posting isn't upset about Vigor being moved and indeed agree that Vigor being more readily available is a good thing. What they're upset over is that instead of being made available quicker, Rapids was pushed farther down to a slot that inherently makes getting it back harder.

Might be because a few of the posts come off fairly accusatory, whether intended or not, when people support the move. Yes is was negative for some. It was also beneficial for others. Feels like the accusatory parts come out more with the "Why didn't they do something else, like move it to support" or "Make both skills unlock at lvl 1" or any of the other proposals set forth.
Much in that vein is the "If its so easy to get rank 5, then it shouldn't have been an issue to get vigor"......We aren't setting the policy. As such, players can only try to give others advice. Personal mileage on said advice will vary.


Edited quotes for brevity sake.

Nicole94

SilverBride wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

I'm not sure why you wish to make so many posts telling people how to feel about something that doesn't even affect you in any way, but we do appreciate you bumping this thread and keeping the subject alive for those who do have a dog in this fight.

Actually it does affect me, and every player in this game, because now I can get a heal for my stamina characters. I already have it on one.

I hadn't posted in this thread for quite awhile, and to be perfectly honest, it's become spam. Nothing new or constructive has been brought to the table for several pages. That's why I think people should accept that this most likely isn't going to be reverted, and work on unlocking the skill again. If they really want it that bad, they will.

Actually you have commented from day one basically telling everyone to "suck it up" and you still are. Not being rude, just factual. Very few, if any, called for this to be reverted. Rapids was rank 2, vigor was rank 5. After patch Vigor is rank 3 and rapids was 5, we wanted to know why. I think you have always viewed this as an "us vs them" and it was never framed that way. I am glad Vigor got moved, although I long ago learned how to play without Vigor, for those that struggled, I am glad and think it is helpful.

The discussion was allowed, by the moderators, to constantly shift to tips on how to gain AP, when it was a clear and concise question to the developers that had nothing to do with gaining AP.

Why was rapids moved to rank 5? Why couldn't rapids remain at rank 2, with Vigor moving to Rank 3, BOTH unlocking at the end of tutorial. If not able to move rapids back to rank 2, why did Rapids have to move to rank 5? Well we all know the answer now. It had nothing to do with performance, nothing to do with any conspiracy theory, and instead seems to be an open attempt to sell a 2 seater mount.
The fact they completely ignored the negative feedback in PTS. They never responded on this thread or the other numerous threads of complaints about Rapids moving, except for the moderators telling us to be nice to one another, is evidence that they planned this, in coordination with their two person mount coming next patch.

I too have slowed my comments, they sent me a nasty email warning me about threatening them, and I still enjoy the game, for now, and Microsoft operates differently. I haven't canceled my subscription, as I have said before, NUMEROUS times, I enjoy pvp and I was inconvenienced because I had to throw together enough stuff so that my characters can get rapids back.

I was able to spend 500k AP to easily get rapids for all of my alts, and I am a nice, polite person, so I am not griefed in pvp. New people will NOT have that advantage, I was concerned for the longevity of the game. Now I couldn't care less. I will see how Microsoft changes things. I know they have a much different philosophy on loot crates available via cash.

Gythral

silvereyes wrote: »

... They did add some buff food recipes and ingredients for +50%, +100% and +150% Alliance War skill line leveling, but the better ones will probably be pricey and still require a fair amount of grinding. ...

50% of nothing is
100%...
150%...
because you didnt have rapids and missed the tick

Yer that's right nothing, still!!!

SilverBride

Thechuckage wrote: »

After the first few pages, there is most definitely a steep down curve on the number of different names posting on the thread.

And the number of posts bringing anything new to the table. That's why it's time to shift the focus from reverting the change to making the best of it and adapting.

You (the OP and others who want the change reverted) brought your request to the forums, and everyone has heard you. There isn't anything else you can do at this point but wait and see if anything comes of it. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Hurbster

Heard by everyone except the Devs, apparently...

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh. it was "removed" because so many who used it really don't want to have to pvp to get it back.

Being removed means it is no longer present. Rapids is still there. The fact that some players don't want to PvP doesn't make it disappear. That only means that maybe it wasn't as necessary as they claim, or they would have had it back by now.

First definition of 'removed' from Oxford Languages (google):

verb: take (something) away or off from the position occupied

I had rapids, it was taken away from the position it occupied. Ergo it was removed.

Can I get it back? Yes. But that doesn't in any way change the fact that it was removed from me.

Was it removed from the game? No. But that's not what anyone in this thread has said or implied.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

Actually it does affect me, and every player in this game, because now I can get a heal for my stamina characters. I already have it on one.

So because you don't use rapids, the loss of Rapids effects very few people in the game, but because you are now using vigor on ONE character, being able to get Vigor easily, effects EVERY player in the game?

Interesting.

esotoon

Thechuckage wrote: »

Might be because a few of the posts come off fairly accusatory, whether intended or not, when people support the move. Yes is was negative for some. It was also beneficial for others. Feels like the accusatory parts come out more with the "Why didn't they do something else, like move it to support" or "Make both skills unlock at lvl 1" or any of the other proposals set forth.
Much in that vein is the "If its so easy to get rank 5, then it shouldn't have been an issue to get vigor"......We aren't setting the policy. As such, players can only try to give others advice. Personal mileage on said advice will vary.

Perhaps those posts come across that way because currently (28 pages into this thread), nobody who has posted in support of the change has given a valid reason for why Rapids should now be harder to get. If they give any reason at all why the rapids move is ok, it boils down to two arguments. 1) Well it's easy to get AP so don't complain. 2) The developers have the right to do what they want so suck it up.

As a result those posts come across as pretty selfish. "This change helps me, so I don't care if it affects you." Rather than adding anything to the discussion. So those that are affected by it feel the need to point out that whilst this change might not have an affect on that poster, these changes do have consequences on others and how those people are being affected by it, and how the change could have been made without having a negative impact on anyone.


It gets pretty frustrating to be told by people who aren't affected by this issue to get over it, to stop talking about it, to suck it up, etc. When it is a new poster to the thread, that's one thing, but when you get the same people popping up again and again saying it, and you can see from a quick glance at their post history that they are quite prepared to use this forum talk and discuss issues that they themselves have a problem with, it can be hard to keep things civil, without some snapishness seeping through.

esotoon

[Duplicate]

PizzaCat82

In another great move, now I can't make it to Harrowstorms in time on the event.

Thanks again, ZOS.

Give us back our damn rapids.

ThoraldGM

While doing today's event, I jumped on my mount to get to the next location.

*slow trot*

*sigh*

Dismounted & ran faster than my maxed out mount! Guess I run faster than a wolf now. Cool, cool.

Elvenheart

The title of this thread is “Please give us back Rapid Maneuvers”. For the entire thread I’ve wondered why people who do not want ZOS to give us back Rapid Maneuvers or who do not care one way or the other have felt the need to air their views about what other people want here. No one in this thread has asked ZOS to retake away easier access to Vigor from anyone, but just to come up with a way that that makes both skills available easier instead of one or the other. No one who have had Rapids taken away from them has attacked anybody else’s choice of play style, but we have had to defend our choice of place style and explain it over and over to people who just don’t seem to understand why having Rapids harder to get causes us enjoy the game less. We just want ZOS to know that something is important to us and why, not to be criticized for feeling the way we do.

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

...by walking into a thread called "Please can we have Rapids back?" and saying "I'm glad they made this change." without giving any further justification, you are effectively saying "I'm glad you don't have rapids any more".

When I see someone say they are glad they made the change, I hear "I am glad I can get Vigor easily now", not "I'm glad you don't have rapids any more". I can understand why you would see it that way, though, because you are focused on rapids.

But no one has to give any justification on why we like the change and don't want it reverted, because we aren't asking for anything. It's the players who are asking for the change to be reverted who need to convince ZoS. The more valid reasons you can provide, and the more examples you can give of how this has negatively affected your gameplay, the more concrete your case.

Our opinions are just that... our opinions. It's ZoS who makes the decisions.

Varana

This thread is not about the change in general, and about Vigor only tangentially, at best.
This thread is about Rapids.
So of course posters are focused on Rapids.
Those who care about the topic, at least.
There's always those who deem it necessary to talk about something entirely different, but what can you do except point out that it is Rapids that this thread is about, and not Vigor.

PizzaCat82

Anyone can come in here and say "I don't want rapids to be lower" and not give it any justification. Thats well within the forum rules.

It's also pointless. If you come in to my threads with a "Not everyone shares your opinion" I'm going to think you're new to this whole "arguing on the internet thing" and take great pity on how simply you view things.

So yeah. Feel free to be lazy. But to be polite, maybe be lazy some where else.

SilverBride

Varana wrote: »

...it is Rapids that this thread is about, and not Vigor.

It's about both. Rapids and Vigor were both moved so Vigor was more easily accessible.

Linaleah

SilverBride wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

You can cook your food on top of the stove and in an oven, too, if you don't have a microwave. And to those who have never owned a microwave, cooking food is still just as fast as it's always been.

That's a very good analogy, but you overlooked some important facts. No matter how long it takes to cook your food, you are still able to fix a meal. And your microwave may no longer be working, but you have the opportunity to buy a new one.

the fact that I now have to buy a new one. for every character so to speak, even though my old one was working just fine and was taken away arbitrarily - IS the problem.
or better comparison. its been locked in a safe, and I now have to work my way up to it, each time I'd like to use it for a dish, instead of just being able to acess it outright.

silvereyes

So, I just spent an hour trying - and failing miserably - to get to level 5 Alliance War on one of my AD toons.

Does anyone know why AD is a ghost town in both Blackreach and Ravenwatch? There was nobody else on Ravenwatch, and only like 3 other players who wanted to try taking anything while I was on. I've never had this issue with either DC or EP toons.

I'm so not looking forward to leveling this character via the ride-a-long-time-capture-one-or-two-resources-get-killed-repeat method.

JoeCapricorn

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Anyone can come in here and say "I don't want rapids to be lower" and not give it any justification. Thats well within the forum rules.

It's also pointless. If you come in to my threads with a "Not everyone shares your opinion" I'm going to think you're new to this whole "arguing on the internet thing" and take great pity on how simply you view things.

So yeah. Feel free to be lazy. But to be polite, maybe be lazy some where else.

This.

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

In another great move, now I can't make it to Harrowstorms in time on the event.

Thanks again, ZOS.

Give us back our damn rapids.

DOUBLE THIS.

Pevey

“Won’t someone please think of the children?”

Poor baby alts across Tamriel are suffering needlessly. For just one dollar a day, uh, I mean, just one rapids skill, ZOS could single-handedly improve the lives of so many baby alts.

Without access to rapids, so many baby alts will go underdeveloped and malnourished and ultimately become neglected.

Please, don’t let their spirits die. Tell everyone you know of this special campaign to save the children of Tamriel.

Nicole94

SilverBride wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

...it is Rapids that this thread is about, and not Vigor.

It's about both. Rapids and Vigor were both moved so Vigor was more easily accessible.

It was never about Vigor. it was NEVER about reverting changes made. I have repeated this point over and over.
This was a question to the Devs Why was Rapids moved to rank 5. There has been multiple attempts by many to derail the question, attempting to make it about "how easy it is to gain AP" or that somehow we were asking for the changes to be reverted, or finally, people like you who have even advocated, and got your topic locked, demanding that the Alliance War skill line only be usable in Cyrodiil, as if that was the ONLY pvp area...
I am sorry you, and others have misunderstood the question. I think if you look back through this thread you will see numerous attempts by me, and others trying to put the topic back on topic. This was never about Vigor. Vigor and rapids did not "swap" positions. Rapids was Rank 2, Vigor was rank 5. After patch Vigor was rank 3, Rapids was rank 5. Rapids could have stayed at Rank 2 and we asked why. Before you answer me telling me the "obvious" answer was because they wanted to, save it. Because I am not asking you why ZoS did what they did. I asked them, I even tagged them into the conversation multiple times until they warned me to stop doing that as well.

They didn't even have to give a good answer. This entire thread would have died if they would have responded with "Hey guys! We will forward your questions and concerns on to the Devs" Like they have done COUNTLESS times over the years, and nothing was ever changed but we "felt" heard and just assumed they had a good reason for it. [snip]

[edited for conspiracy theory/bashing]

c363b

The moderators could save a lot of the time they spend editing players' posts if they would simply post an official developers' explanation of why they moved rapids to rank 5 instead of using one of the multiple other suggested methods for making vigor more accessible. It was not necessary for them to make the game less enjoyable for new and PVE players. How can they justify that?