Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

JoeCapricorn

Jaraal wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

The absolute LEAST they could do is lower the requirements to get Rapids. The best they could do is also make it require Assault 2, because this is a skill a LOT of people have on their bar.

But you’re missing the point. The point of the change was to make Rapids harder to get, so you will be more likely to purchase speed upgrades from the crown store. Vigor is just a diversion.

To Oblivion with that point. I want to say stronger words but I also want to come across as respectful and courteous.

ZOS has listened to the community in the past and I hope they will listen once more in this instance.

DarcyMardin

So I spent a couple of hours in Cyrodiil this afternoon. The character I was on, a level 50 over-1000 CP alt from my original 2014 account, already had half the level 4 assault bar filled, so I hoped I could get her quickly to level 5. But Cyrodiil was dead — hardly anything in the way of battles going on anywhere. I did a couple delves, a bunch of town quests and scouting missions. The scouting missions took *forever* on a horse with no rapids. I repaired several keep doors. Result: I still need about 30k AP to get to lvl 5.

And this was on a fully leveled character with PvP gear and a horse with full speed. My rapids had of course been taken away. I can’t even contemplate the pain of trying to level my 5 new baby alts on my new account to get back *their* rapids.

Please revert this change, ZOS. It is extremely painful for those of us loyal customers who love to play our alts and use rapids for just about everything we do.

SydneyGrey

This change will have several effects:

1) It'll ruin Battlegrounds as more people who have no clue what they're doing will join up just for the AP, and not even try to fight.
2) It'll hurt ESO's ability to recruit new players, since people will get the game, learn their horse will be painfully slow for MONTHS unless they pay more money for riding lessons ( on top of what they already paid for the game), and then they'll stop playing and go back to WoW (or whatever).
3) It'll make some current players want to quit, because there are a lot of people who like to create a lot of alts. It's no fun making a new alt now, unless you just really like wasting your time being slow.

phairdon

I agree. Give the skill back to everyone. No one should have to spend their time in Cyrodiil or battlegrounds to re-unlock a skill. I'm really *issed off about this change.

Jayman1000

Elsonso wrote: »

TineaCruris wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

TineaCruris wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

[Removed quote]

vigor is only good for stamina toons. This change screws anyone trying to level an alt.

It might be usable by everyone leveling an alt, but I bet you dollars to donuts that Vigor will be more valuable than Rapid Maneuvers for most PVE players, and that is what this change looks to be addressing.

How many mag toons use vigor? What percentage of the player base are on mag toons?

Outside of Cyrodiil, where Assault 5 is going to be common, I rarely see anyone using Rapid Maneuvers except for a few higher level crafting resource farmers. i would suggest that fewer people are using it for PVE, as a percentage of the total population, than the percentage of people running Stamina.

If you are riding around in zone you are going to want to use rapid. You'll more rapidly get from A to B. I dont believe your observations of rarely seeing people using rapid are representative of the most players, unless of course said players are so new and unknowledgeable about the rapid skill (I know I was in the beginning and when I learned about rapid I facepalmed because I had been riding around in slowmo....).

Tandor

keoma01 wrote: »

Everybody without exception needs rapid and quite a lot of people needs vigor as well. For first glance it almost doesn't matter which one is the first skill.
But in reality you need to follow a group in Cyrodiil if you want to level your skill line and without rapid it is a very frustrating experience. You can't go to resources in time and so on.
Rapid is a fundamental skill for being able to get vigor, but vigor doesn't really help you to get rapid.
Please drop hubris and change this back.

It isn't true that "everybody without exception needs rapid". In my case, six years on with 40+ characters not one of them has ever used it.

However, and I say this as someone who has also never done PvP in ESO (as opposed to other games) - if you want a PvP skill, be prepared to do the PvP content to earn it.

Ackwalan

Just stop already. Not having rapids does not prevent you from doing anything.

zaria

Jaraal wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

The absolute LEAST they could do is lower the requirements to get Rapids. The best they could do is also make it require Assault 2, because this is a skill a LOT of people have on their bar.

But you’re missing the point. The point of the change was to make Rapids harder to get, so you will be more likely to purchase speed upgrades from the crown store. Vigor is just a diversion.

Disagree, most experienced players simply park their alts in town for some months leveling mounts and deconstruction to level crafting levels, I was lucky as I leveled my latest in baby PvP got to assault 7 as it was an fun group.
Lots has maxed out speed on alts but people who hate PvP don't have any with 10 i assault so they can not buy the skill line.

I have another reason for not letting people keep it. Its an large double AP test soon.
It will include some massive nerfs who will force massive changes to builds and will destroy any illusion of class balance.
So lots like me will sit it out, most of the semi casuals who are most affected would drop out very fast as their build would not work.
So give them an reason to stay in Cyrodil.
Yes it has downsides, they hate PvP and their skills don't work. I will obviously say that this will come to PvE as unless publicly stated otherwise by an ZoS official it will.

On top of it the test is stupid, An single time AoE like steel tornado, sweep or pulsar cost less for the server than an AoE DoT or HoT, same with stuff like acid spray who is an one time AoE who give an DoT on target.

Now that about proc sets, its obvious that everyone will only wear proc sets in Cyrodil if this goes true.
If you take part in the event run proc and monster sets with AoE effects, who more visual who better.
If you have stuff with particle effect its required.

OldManJim

Ackwalan wrote: »

Just stop already. Not having rapids does not prevent you from doing anything.

Obviously you don't have to get to keeps or dragons, harrowstorms etc in a hurry then... Good for you.

Jaraal

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

The absolute LEAST they could do is lower the requirements to get Rapids. The best they could do is also make it require Assault 2, because this is a skill a LOT of people have on their bar.

But you’re missing the point. The point of the change was to make Rapids harder to get, so you will be more likely to purchase speed upgrades from the crown store. Vigor is just a diversion.

To Oblivion with that point. I want to say stronger words but I also want to come across as respectful and courteous.

ZOS has listened to the community in the past and I hope they will listen once more in this instance.

We have been vehemently protesting this change for weeks on the test server, as well as in the open forums. I’m not sure why you feel they will listen now when they have ignored us all along.

Elsonso

Jaraal wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

The absolute LEAST they could do is lower the requirements to get Rapids. The best they could do is also make it require Assault 2, because this is a skill a LOT of people have on their bar.

But you’re missing the point. The point of the change was to make Rapids harder to get, so you will be more likely to purchase speed upgrades from the crown store. Vigor is just a diversion.

To Oblivion with that point. I want to say stronger words but I also want to come across as respectful and courteous.

ZOS has listened to the community in the past and I hope they will listen once more in this instance.

We have been vehemently protesting this change for weeks on the test server, as well as in the open forums. I’m not sure why you feel they will listen now when they have ignored us all along.

Yup. This is one of those decisions that, come hell or high water, they are going to stand and defend against all who would challenge. They are dug in, entrenched, and have the "Go Away" signs firmly planted.

Ackwalan

OldManJim wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Just stop already. Not having rapids does not prevent you from doing anything.

Obviously you don't have to get to keeps or dragons, harrowstorms etc in a hurry then... Good for you.

There's always another keep or dragon, harrowstorm etc, so why hurry.

Noisivid

Jerrold wrote: »

They should make it require level 10

well, players were to be able to get at level 10

MrGhosty wrote: »

Noisivid wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Noisivid wrote: »

I did't want to go into Cyro without Rapids as that's a pain due to traveling speeds. so I was running Battlegrounds.

This. Lots of folks are joining matches and just going AFK and tabbing out to surf the web. Lose enough matches and you'll get there eventually.

i just haven't been able to bring myself to do that yet. I'd feel bad just AFKing. (it also seems like the system would boot you after a bit) There were definitely a few fights that I just wasn't into and wasn't putting out a full effort. I don't think that's fair to the people I was grouped with either but what can you do? It's on ZoS.

It's not on Zos if you willfully ruin other players' experiences. If you feel you have to do that in order to level for a qol skill that's fair enough but be honest with yourself and call it what it is. I don't really care for the switch either, though I have a character I'm currently leveling that is going to benefit from the swap and the only time I ever put rapids on my bar is when I'm in cyro solo or I'm doing the dragon/harrowstorm grind (less so now that no one really does dragons anymore, plenty of time to reach them now)

You can level up alliance war lines fast in Cyro, just ask in zone for LFG and join a group. There is always someone who slots rapids for the group so you won't be left behind. Additionally as long as you're in the nearby region you get kill xp from your group, and it also counts kills towards the repeatable quests. No it isn't as fast as doing a two minute quest, and for the people who rely on that speed buff on many toons I feel your pain. Just don't ruin other people's gameplay because you feel zos has wronged you. Those random people have no control over whether or not skills get switched, and you risk forcing zos to put in countermeasures if the problem becomes endemic. They are more likely to put anti afk measures in place than revert skill lines.

it is on Zos, they made a change that negatively affects a large portion of the player base and the result is AFKers in barttlesground and people that aren't into PvP just going through the motions to get back the skill that they had access to before the change. (I'm pretty sure AFKers do get kicked and replaced, don't really know as I don't AFK) They caused the problem so they get their share of the blame.

I think maybe you misconstrued what I actually said.
I said not a full effort NOT going AFK or just staying dead or anything like that. I'm generally pretty brutally honest with myself, which is why I said what I said. Accusing me of AFKing or lying to myself is pretty insulting really.

I flat out said I didn't think it was fair to the people that are trying to take every battleground seriously.
Going AFK in battlegrounds would be no different than fake tanks and healers and people that speed run through dungeons leaving other people behind. I don't do that either. I'll stand there and wait while someone listens to the dialogue in Fungal G.
If I'm tanking I tank.

Yeah, I recognize it's not ideal, but on battleground #9 for the day enthusiasm starts to flagg. I don't think if a pure PvPer was PuG grinding CoAshes all day to try to complete a set that run #9 would be get the same full effort as run #4. That's just what happens when people are forced to to content they're not really into over and over. If it wasn't for Rapids I would have been done with it at around #4. This is due to a bad change by ZoS, forcing people to grind content they don't really want to do just to get back to where they were, like the VMA weapons debacle.. so yeah, it's mostly on them.

If Rapids had been at rank5 from launch players would just grind it out a a matter of course in playing the game. As it is right now ZoS removed access to a skill that pretty much everyone had and could use to make many parts of the game more enjoyable

leveling in Cryro has been discussed, do you play off peak hours? LFG sometime is only answered by the crickets. So no group and thus no Rapids.
I spent about half an hour in the battlegrounds que (just the que, not the BGs themselves) this morning, for two battlegrounds. If you play off-peak hours queing group content slows down considerably.
If you're in the general area of the person who slots Rapids when they trigger it you get the speed boost, outside that area I don't think you do, even in group. I'm not completely sure as I almost always slot Rapids in Cyro.

I know Cryo, I could just buy the skill line for crowns as I've got the Alliance War skill line maxed on a few characters, but that's not happening.

wolonggong

I just look at this change as one less reason to play. The change is a punishment to everyone, for no reason and for a game that had to go B2P because not enough people were willing to pay to play it, they sure do love taking changes driving even more people away and that MUST be the reason why they did it because it could NOT be to try to get more people to PvP.

That cant be forced and has been proven for over 20 years...and you also dont give PvP players a speed boost after PvPing for a while because that just increases the difficulty for newer PvPers which makes even more people NOT WANT TO PVP.

So yeah, it was done for legit reason.

wolonggong

Elsonso wrote: »

Outside of Cyrodiil, where Assault 5 is going to be common, I rarely see anyone using Rapid Maneuvers except for a few higher level crafting resource farmers. i would suggest that fewer people are using it for PVE, as a percentage of the total population, than the percentage of people running Stamina.

That is pure BS. Everyone that has it uses it to get to anyplace they are going FASTER.

OldManJim

Ackwalan wrote: »

OldManJim wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Just stop already. Not having rapids does not prevent you from doing anything.

Obviously you don't have to get to keeps or dragons, harrowstorms etc in a hurry then... Good for you.

There's always another keep or dragon, harrowstorm etc, so why hurry.

Because I prefer not to waste my time playing horse simulator. Just because you don’t like to rush doesn’t mean others can’t.

Jaraal

Tandor wrote: »

keoma01 wrote: »

Everybody without exception needs rapid and quite a lot of people needs vigor as well. For first glance it almost doesn't matter which one is the first skill.
But in reality you need to follow a group in Cyrodiil if you want to level your skill line and without rapid it is a very frustrating experience. You can't go to resources in time and so on.
Rapid is a fundamental skill for being able to get vigor, but vigor doesn't really help you to get rapid.
Please drop hubris and change this back.

It isn't true that "everybody without exception needs rapid". In my case, six years on with 40+ characters not one of them has ever used it.

However, and I say this as someone who has also never done PvP in ESO (as opposed to other games) - if you want a PvP skill, be prepared to do the PvP content to earn it.

But before yesterday, there wasn't actually any PvP involved in getting Rapid Maneuvers.

The entirety of unlocking the skill was exactly this: Be lvl 10, press L, queue into any Cyrodiil campaign. Zone in, talk to the lady with an arrow over her head. She tells you to deliver something somewhere else in the base. Then that person tells you to go talk to the siege trainer... still within the safety of your own area. Talk to the siege person, boom, you get 2 skill points and are now lvl 2 in Assault and Support. Press K, buy your Rapids, and leave.

As of now, this is all you have to do to get Vigor instead. But you will have to do a lot of fighting to get up to rank 5 and buy the riding skill you have already enjoyed for years.

emilyhyoyeon

to me the change is funny because on all of my tanks and stamina DDs I pretty much never use vigor and have no issues with using class healing like siphoning strikes, ritual.............. I would also like to see the change reverted or, as was suggested during PTS, make rapids the first skill in assault and vigor the first skill in support or vice versa

JoeCapricorn

Jaraal wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

The absolute LEAST they could do is lower the requirements to get Rapids. The best they could do is also make it require Assault 2, because this is a skill a LOT of people have on their bar.

But you’re missing the point. The point of the change was to make Rapids harder to get, so you will be more likely to purchase speed upgrades from the crown store. Vigor is just a diversion.

To Oblivion with that point. I want to say stronger words but I also want to come across as respectful and courteous.

ZOS has listened to the community in the past and I hope they will listen once more in this instance.

We have been vehemently protesting this change for weeks on the test server, as well as in the open forums. I’m not sure why you feel they will listen now when they have ignored us all along.

I was unaware of this pending change or I would have joined in that vehement protest. I am sure there are a lot of people who logged on Monday after the update and got the rude awakening of their Rapids being stolen.

Now I am going to make sure this thread, or any successor thereof, remains on the front page. Every chance I get I will make my displeasure unheard.

GIVE OUR RAPIDS BACK ZOS! PLEASE!

Thechuckage

[snip]

wolonggong wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Outside of Cyrodiil, where Assault 5 is going to be common, I rarely see anyone using Rapid Maneuvers except for a few higher level crafting resource farmers. i would suggest that fewer people are using it for PVE, as a percentage of the total population, than the percentage of people running Stamina.

That is pure BS. Everyone that has it uses it to get to anyplace they are going FASTER.

Anyone could use it, before. Not everyone did. This isnt the first time skills have been moved around inside the trees and is likely not the last.

If this really is the straw that broke the camels back, then that sucks. Or adapt and overcome. More threads are not likely to have a positive outcome - vMA showed us that.

johnebrown

Elsonso wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

The issue is that we're so slow now that grinding Rapids again will take twice as long as grinding Vigor did before the change, because by the time we get to the fight, half the time it's too late and we missed it thanks to a super slow horse.
And if we're taken down by a ganker on our super slow horse on the way to the fight, there is ZERO chance we'll make it back to the fight in time.

Yeah, this change STINKS for a lot of people.

Evidently, ZoS doesn't care about the customers who subscribe with multiple accounts because they so enjoy their PvE alts.

They care about them plenty. If you have multiple accounts, you have to be willing to put in the work on multiple accounts. That is a given. Don't expect handouts from ZOS for that.

keoma01 wrote: »

Everybody without exception needs rapid

There are plenty of exceptions to that.

Not a handout when you follow the procedure outlined to get Rapids. Used it for four years & now it's gone. They changed the procedure required to have Rapids. That is the issue for most people here. I don't care how easy it was to get it, but I already got it once. For those that never had it, that's a different story, but I still think for their sake there were better options for ZOS to lower the req for Vigor. The vast majority of my toons are stam and I like getting vigor so easily. I just think there was a better way.

wolonggong

Thechuckage wrote: »

[snip]

Anyone could use it, before. Not everyone did.

[snip]

I really do not see why a player would spend a point on a skill, to not use often, when it has ONLY ONE PURPOSE and ONE REASON TO GET IT...to move faster.

Seriously. Been playing on and off since beta and I rarely go more than an hour without seeing someone smash that skill the second they mount up to get to where they are going, or seeing someone using it while traveling myself. This idea that people are spending a point to unlock a speed buff and not use it is just plain ridiculous.

But no no, this skill, that just so happens to be the one that was changed, is the one skill in game people are going to spend a point on to not use, because, the change needs defending!

[edited for baiting]

Ackwalan

OldManJim wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

OldManJim wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Just stop already. Not having rapids does not prevent you from doing anything.

Obviously you don't have to get to keeps or dragons, harrowstorms etc in a hurry then... Good for you.

There's always another keep or dragon, harrowstorm etc, so why hurry.

Because I prefer not to waste my time playing horse simulator. Just because you don’t like to rush doesn’t mean others can’t.

Sounds more like you failed to have a plan. You can look at the map and see where the zergs are, then you can either get ahead of them to defend the keep or help take it, depending on which side you are on.

OldManJim

Ackwalan wrote: »

OldManJim wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

OldManJim wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Just stop already. Not having rapids does not prevent you from doing anything.

Obviously you don't have to get to keeps or dragons, harrowstorms etc in a hurry then... Good for you.

There's always another keep or dragon, harrowstorm etc, so why hurry.

Because I prefer not to waste my time playing horse simulator. Just because you don’t like to rush doesn’t mean others can’t.

Sounds more like you failed to have a plan. You can look at the map and see where the zergs are, then you can either get ahead of them to defend the keep or help take it, depending on which side you are on.

I don’t PvP, so your point is moot. This may come as a shock, but there are other uses for rapids in the game.

Ackwalan

OldManJim wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

OldManJim wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

OldManJim wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Just stop already. Not having rapids does not prevent you from doing anything.

Obviously you don't have to get to keeps or dragons, harrowstorms etc in a hurry then... Good for you.

There's always another keep or dragon, harrowstorm etc, so why hurry.

Because I prefer not to waste my time playing horse simulator. Just because you don’t like to rush doesn’t mean others can’t.

Sounds more like you failed to have a plan. You can look at the map and see where the zergs are, then you can either get ahead of them to defend the keep or help take it, depending on which side you are on.

I don’t PvP, so your point is moot. This may come as a shock, but there are other uses for rapids in the game.

If you want to get raids quickly you can use the zergs to gain lots of AP. So have a plan, look at the map, and either defend against them or aid them. Would you do a trial without a plan?

johnebrown

Jierdanit wrote: »

PvPers had to PvE to get their best gear for ages, i think the pve players can take that they now have to do pvp for more than 10 min because they want to have a skill that is purely a QoL improvement and does not change anything about how well they do in pve content.

A) Not completely true - When crafting writs with 18 toons, it makes a big difference timewise. When doing a few hundred surveys, again a big difference as well as when doing antiquities. If time is not an issue, u may be right, but on a given day when I only have 45 minutes to play and I'm crafting, I will earn less without rapids. And when I built those crafters I gave them all Rapids. Not Like I'm asking for something new. Just because you feel PVPers were shorted before doesn't mean that PVEers short be shorted now. It's not like the players did something wrong. I do agree Vigor should have been be more accessible all along. I Just don't think they had to take rapids away from us to do that.

johnebrown

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Gundug wrote: »

I had already “done the work”, as some players demand, by leveling them all to beyond 10, and most beyond 50, having them all go through the Welcome to Cyrodiil routine ...

Does anyone else think the 30-second Welcome to Cyrodiil quest (where you don’t PvP at all) is hardly “doing the work”?

Yes. That is what we were asked to do. Do this action & we give you this ability. That was the deal. I don't see the people complaining here asking ZOS to take back the vigor from you. They just want their rapids back. Now on your next new toon when you get vigor easily, would you think it was fair if it was later taken away from you because you didn't really work hard for it?

johnebrown

Elsonso wrote: »

TineaCruris wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

[Removed quote]

vigor is only good for stamina toons. This change screws anyone trying to level an alt.

It might be usable by everyone leveling an alt, but I bet you dollars to donuts that Vigor will be more valuable than Rapid Maneuvers for most PVE players, and that is what this change looks to be addressing.

mmm... The majority of stam players, but a minority of mag players. By sheer numbers using it, no. But I'm not sure how to compare the % of players using it to those that really need it. In essence you are probably correct, though I still think there was a better way of doing it.

johnebrown

Elsonso wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

TineaCruris wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Another post about the same exact thing!

So, obviously, I must repeat the same exact thing: you'll be okay.

I get a good laugh at people that want to quit because they're now going a little bit slower on a horse from Point A to Point B, yet they don't appreciate all the other PvE'ers who are enjoying the ability to stay alive with Vigor now that it's easily accessible.

vigor is only good for stamina toons. This change screws anyone trying to level an alt.

It might be usable by everyone leveling an alt, but I bet you dollars to donuts that Vigor will be more valuable than Rapid Maneuvers for most PVE players, and that is what this change looks to be addressing.

So from your perspective, you think adjusting a PvP skill line for PvE players was the right call?

No. It was an easy answer to a problem that should not have existed. Given that it did exist, what ZOS needed to do was find a way to add the desired functionality of Vigor to one or more existing (or new) skills commonly available to stamina characters. It would have been more work, and more disruption, but my feel is that would have been the better approach.

Honestly, I think ZOS did this to show they were "listening". Easy. Quick. Done.

Well I think they failed at that.

JoeCapricorn

It would be irresponsible of them for them to not comment on this matter directly at some point this week (probably not tonight, it is past midnight here)

An acknowledgement of the issue at hand, at the very least.

Then they need to LISTEN to us. Give our rapids back! #FREETHERAPIDS