Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

renne

Ackwalan wrote: »

I've played the game. Sometimes rapids helps, sometimes it is not enough.

Which is a fact I acknowledged in the very first post that you replied to.

Ackwalan

renne wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

I've played the game. Sometimes rapids helps, sometimes it is not enough.

Which is a fact I acknowledged in the very first post that you replied to.

You also said 'you can't get to the Keep without rapids'. Which is simple not true.

mikejezz

Why would zenimax roll it back? They want to sell riding lessons on the store, and they didn't feel attractive before with rapid maneuver

Jaraal

mikejezz wrote: »

Why would zenimax roll it back? They want to sell riding lessons on the store, and they didn't feel attractive before with rapid maneuver

Yes, they knew very well (and stated as much) that this would be an unpopular decision. Someone weighed the pros and cons and decided that monetization and/or slowing players down to ease server calculation load was more important than player satisfaction and corporate goodwill.

Nicole94

Linaleah wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also, that time you just said? TRIPLE it at a minimum. there is literally a video in this very thread, that shows you get 30k ap in half an hour during double ap week and that video starts IN the castle so doesn't include travel time.

Stop lying to people. The video was made on August 31, 2020 when no double AP event was active. And it starts at base, not in the keep.

I'm not lying, that week had double AP because they were testing changes. it was NOT a double AP event or anything, it was just there for the sake of testing. and I'm pretty sure it starts on loading screen INTO the keep.

regardless the other poster replying to me, did point out the part i have forgotten to mention. that those kits cost an investment of gold to buy. and elsewhere in this thread - calculations were made that its NOT in fact self sustaining and it takes more AP to buy enough kits to hit rank 5 then the amount of AP you earn while getting there.

and in any case, I brought up that video because ironically? it was made to show how EASY it is to get rapids again, and fantastically, resoundingly proved the exact opposite.

@Nicole94

I'm not sure why you are yelling at me. we are on the same side here. that tip is to some degree useful if you are a pve player who would rather not pvp at all, and just want your farming alts to move faster again. assumption is that you at least have some gold to throw at it.

yeah, that tip doesn't work for new players. that tip doesn't even work for old players that would rather not spend so much time regaining a skill vs playing parts of the game they actualy enjoy.

my point is - as above. even with completely pvp free option, it still. takes. a long. time. far longer then the claim of 30 minutes which was the claim I was replying to - to refute it.

@Linaleah I would never yell at you. I am sorry if it seemed I was angry or upset. Yes I have seen what you have written and agree with most of it, if not all Please forgive any misunderstanding.
I am upset at ZoS, and ZoS only. They should have made something by now explaining why they decided to do this, like this. We have had the skill for 6 years.
If someone needs tips on how to level Alliance War skill line they can make their own thread asking for tips. I want an explanation, I will give them a bit of time to give one. IF they ignore me, I will take my business elsewhere. Games like paying customers.
I appreciate your comments Thank you!

thalosdaedra

looking fast AWS

Wytch

mikejezz wrote: »

Why would zenimax roll it back? They want to sell riding lessons on the store, and they didn't feel attractive before with rapid maneuver

I'm curious about something. I don't disagree in principle. I am positive they are using a proctological approach to try and bleed us for more money. What I am curious about is why some people think this has anything at all to do with the riding lessons?

Not only can the riding lessons be gifted or gotten thru other means, like the gems from the ouroboros crates, but they mean nothing in the grand scheme of rapidsgate. A fully trained mount still feels like swimming thru tar when you suddenly no longer have that speed boost that you've been used to for 6 years. Rapids doesn't replace riding training, it adds more speed on top of that.

What they ARE trying to force down our throats thru the store is the PvP skill lines that of course can only be bought together and thus require being double the normal skill line price, at 3000 crowns for the combo PER ALT if we want it back quickly... and that's still only if you managed to get at least 1 toon up to whatever the max level of it is to be able to buy them on other toons.

This is the longest version of "bait and switch" in history lol.

esotoon

Wytch wrote: »

I'm curious about something. I don't disagree in principle. I am positive they are using a proctological approach to try and bleed us for more money. What I am curious about is why some people think this has anything at all to do with the riding lessons?

[snip]

What they ARE trying to force down our throats thru the store is the PvP skill lines that of course can only be bought together and thus require being double the normal skill line price, at 3000 crowns for the combo PER ALT

Why does it have to be either/or. Why not both? And whilst you're at it, throw in a nice 2 player mount into the mix to give them 3 income steams from this change, depending on people's priorities.

Those not averse to PVP take the riding lessons. Those who are willing to grind it out once but no more take the skill lines. And those who refuse to PVP or don't have money themselves, can persuade their rich mates to get a two seater and give them a lift.

Wytch

esotoon wrote: »

Why does it have to be either/or. Why not both? And whilst you're at it, throw in a nice 2 player mount into the mix to give them 3 income steams from this change, depending on people's priorities.

Those not averse to PVP take the riding lessons. Those who are willing to grind it out once but no more take the skill lines. And those who refuse to PVP or don't have money themselves, can persuade their rich mates to get a two seater and give them a lift.

I didn't mention the mount because it's even less relevant to rapidsgate. Heck, there is a fair chance they will actually sell LESS of the mounts because of people either leaving the game or refusing to buy it in protest. I WAS really excited about the new mount and wanted to get it. Now tho? Now I care less about it than what I flush.

I was only curious where these theories about motives are coming from, I don't want to debate the validity of any of them which I now see my previous post basically did. Debating the "why" will just continue to divide us.

What we need to focus on is that they ripped something away from us to make a play at shoving it behind a paywall. Trying to theorize on what thing (or combination of things) they are trying to force on us is just a distraction.

The funny thing is... from me... this isn't only costing them, but it's costing other companies too. ESO is currently the only thing really keeping me on Windows. The moment I fully give up on the game, I format my drive. That means not only will zos not be getting any further money from me, but MS and Adobe will directly stop getting any money from me and several others indirectly. That's not really relevant either... it's just that I just realized I will be saving on a lot more than just a game sub if I give up on the game totally lol.

nukk3r

Linaleah wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also, that time you just said? TRIPLE it at a minimum. there is literally a video in this very thread, that shows you get 30k ap in half an hour during double ap week and that video starts IN the castle so doesn't include travel time.

Stop lying to people. The video was made on August 31, 2020 when no double AP event was active. And it starts at base, not in the keep.

I'm not lying, that week had double AP because they were testing changes. it was NOT a double AP event or anything, it was just there for the sake of testing. and I'm pretty sure it starts on loading screen INTO the keep.

The tests were postponed until September 8, that's when double AP can be earned.
I'm pretty sure it starts at base because I recorded it and you can watch it again and stop embarrassing yourself. I traveled to the keep via transitus station, they allow you to do that.

yes. they do allow you to do that. you didn't record all of the loading screen. you didn't record looking for a keep. and I stand corrected, i was under impression that double AP WAS active.

however. my point. still. STANDS. not to mention - your experience was in a lvl 50 alliance locked campaign with apparently a bunch of active bonuses which is NOT something one would expect at all times, especially if you have alts across all 3 alliances.

Are you trying to gaslight me over my own video? WATCH. THE. FOOTAGE. All the loading screens are there. It was EU prime time, which is notorious for its loading screens.
What do you mean by looking for a keep? I opened the map and ported to a random keep. Do I need to look on a map for half an hour to know where they are?

The campaign doesn't matter, the walls have holes in every single campaign no matter the alliance. Go to Cyrodiil and check it yourself. And I also mentioned that my alliance didn't have any bonuses. Does it look like DC has any advantage over other alliances to you?

Elvenheart

Although some people seem to think that the number of people making one-time purchases of the Alliance skill lines, even for each of their characters, and/or one-time mount purchases for their accounts is going to be better off for ZOS than the number of unhappy people who unsub and stop buying crowns from time to time, I just can’t believe that will be the case in the long run. I think the revenue from happy monthly subbers who also willingly buy crowns for things they want would exceed the one-time purchases generated by this change.

I’ve played since beta and have multiple characters, one of which has made it to 7 in the Alliance skill lines for caltrops. I doubt I’ll ever take that character all the way to 10, but even if I did I would never waste money purchasing the skill lines for another character. So if I unsubbed they would lose a steady source of revenue they’ve had from me since the beginning, one that would have continued indefinitely into the future, and they would be losing it for NOTHING since I can’t even buy the skill lines because I don’t have a character at 10 in Alliance. How can that be considered a sound business decision?

Linaleah

nukk3r wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also, that time you just said? TRIPLE it at a minimum. there is literally a video in this very thread, that shows you get 30k ap in half an hour during double ap week and that video starts IN the castle so doesn't include travel time.

Stop lying to people. The video was made on August 31, 2020 when no double AP event was active. And it starts at base, not in the keep.

I'm not lying, that week had double AP because they were testing changes. it was NOT a double AP event or anything, it was just there for the sake of testing. and I'm pretty sure it starts on loading screen INTO the keep.

The tests were postponed until September 8, that's when double AP can be earned.
I'm pretty sure it starts at base because I recorded it and you can watch it again and stop embarrassing yourself. I traveled to the keep via transitus station, they allow you to do that.

yes. they do allow you to do that. you didn't record all of the loading screen. you didn't record looking for a keep. and I stand corrected, i was under impression that double AP WAS active.

however. my point. still. STANDS. not to mention - your experience was in a lvl 50 alliance locked campaign with apparently a bunch of active bonuses which is NOT something one would expect at all times, especially if you have alts across all 3 alliances.

Are you trying to gaslight me over my own video? WATCH. THE. FOOTAGE. All the loading screens are there. It was EU prime time, which is notorious for its loading screens.
What do you mean by looking for a keep? I opened the map and ported to a random keep. Do I need to look on a map for half an hour to know where they are?

The campaign doesn't matter, the walls have holes in every single campaign no matter the alliance. Go to Cyrodiil and check it yourself. And I also mentioned that my alliance didn't have any bonuses. Does it look like DC has any advantage over other alliances to you?

I went back to watch the video and for whatever reason when I watched it originally it started few seconds in for me, which I missed. so I apologize, it does start at the base.

however. this looks like an underdog bonus situation to me, which gives you bonus AP. I have bitten the bullet and locked my pact EU character to gray host (and yes, campaign does matter, some campaigns are more active then others and in my somewhat limited experience of playing in Cyrodil and trying to level through repair, I never EVER managed to just get a keep to myself to repair. it would always be brought up to max by several people at a time, which leads me to believe that "sprint to the next keep before repairs are done" phenomenon is NOT universal. but I also tended to play in no cp campaigns back when I still tried that strat before giving up and resorting to battlegrounds instead. since at least I can ride around and pick flowers or decorate a house, while waiting for a pop there unlike being in Cyro.

so I decided to try this for myself on EU, even locked my main there to gray host for good measure. my alliance (pact) has keep bonus II so I was getting almost the same amount of AP per repair as you did (my first tick was 66 rather then 63 and it seems like the 3 ap difference persisted). I got to 1k ap, before the wall was full. by your own admission - that's 20k ap in half an hour of spamming q, at a cost of what was it... according to my calculations - 28k plus or more depending on whether you get uniform ticks, etc. 20k ap will buy you 66 kits which is enough to get about 4200 ap. which means you have to keep spending gold to continue repairing.

which brings me back to my original point, errors and all on my part. original point. STILL. STANDS.

it is time consuming. and it is expensive. I have 8 alts on EU that lost rapids. I am NOT spending 16 hours and about 90k gold per alt to get them back. i don't even HAVE that much gold on EU. so... here we are. back at the start. where your video proves the opposite of just how easy and fast it is to get rapids back.

FrancisCrawford

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Hurbster wrote: »

They will do what they always do, keep it quiet until it dies down. Or make an off-hand comment in a live-stream or something and laugh it off.

Oh, I agree, but I will still keep posting as long as the discussion continues. They’re losing two subscriptions from me over this — one that has been subbed for years and the other, my new account that I was about to sub with since inventory management on my 6 new characters is a nightmare. But the achingly slow speed with which those new characters, lacking any CP, are forced to move around now that their Rapids has been stripped away is infuriating enough to make me stop forking over monthly subscription fees to ZOS.

To be clear, we're still a two-subscription household. But that's versus a long-time three that was surely going up to four.

The change also precludes any chance I'll ever level characters and spend crowns on the European server. And, even if a new class is again introduced some day, I've very unlikely to ever add new characters to the PC/NA ones I already have.

anitajoneb17_ESO

I had 2 characters (out of 10) that were below 5 in assault/support.

Thanks to those who gave the "advice" in this thread to use BGs - I wouldn't have thought of that myself, I managed to bring those 2 chars to 5 (still cost me the whole afternoon, and sorry for the poor guys who were stuck with me in BGs, and, obviously, lost because of me).

I am hooked enough to the game to make that effort. But I have plenty of friends who are currently playing something else, for whom I still had the hope that they'd come back to ESO. I'm 99% sure that when they come back and realise they have slow mounts, and have to PvP for a whole day to get rapids back, they turn away forever without even looking back.

joerginger

Wytch wrote: »

mikejezz wrote: »

Why would zenimax roll it back? They want to sell riding lessons on the store, and they didn't feel attractive before with rapid maneuver

I'm curious about something. I don't disagree in principle. I am positive they are using a proctological approach to try and bleed us for more money. What I am curious about is why some people think this has anything at all to do with the riding lessons?

Not only can the riding lessons be gifted or gotten thru other means, like the gems from the ouroboros crates, but they mean nothing in the grand scheme of rapidsgate. A fully trained mount still feels like swimming thru tar when you suddenly no longer have that speed boost that you've been used to for 6 years. Rapids doesn't replace riding training, it adds more speed on top of that.

What they ARE trying to force down our throats thru the store is the PvP skill lines that of course can only be bought together and thus require being double the normal skill line price, at 3000 crowns for the combo PER ALT if we want it back quickly... and that's still only if you managed to get at least 1 toon up to whatever the max level of it is to be able to buy them on other toons.

This is the longest version of "bait and switch" in history lol.

That's exactly what I said right at the start. The riding lessons are only small fish, the obvious bigger fish they mean to fry are the expensive skill lines for people like me who have a lot of alts, but only one main character with Assault leveled to 10. Rapids was used all the time unless while crafting Vivec City, and because of the switch, it was taken from all alts but one character whose Assault skill line was at four, approaching five. So far I have only managed to level that character and two others and I can only say that I have had quite enough.
Neither Battlegrounds nor the the horrid vastness of Cyrodiil provide any kind of positive entertainment value for me, but for some reason ZOS think that this is where I should spend the next couple of months of my time in this game. They kindly offer me the alternative of spending 42000 crowns to give the remaining 14 characters on my normal account back their Rapids, but that is just so incredibly greedy that - well, unfortunately I can imagine plenty of people spending the crowns just for the sake of not having to suffer through hour upon hour of content they don't enjoy. It is tempting for sure because the alternative is absolutely abhorrent.

The one thing I want to get off my chest regarding this wonderful change is that for some reason I have the feeling that I was specifically targeted by this change. I have a main that's suffered through PvP to get to level 10 in Assault while there are 17 alts who are all at 3 (or were in one case at 4). I shamefully admit that I spent money on the game, but this greedy grab into my pockets to take every last bit of money I still might have left in there is simply too much. You, ZOS, will have no more of my money unless I find out about you firing every single "monetization engineer" you ever hired.

Oh yeah, sorry for bothering you ZOS mods again for having to read this before you could delete it.

Hurbster

OldManJim wrote: »

I have also emailed esocsvip@mail.bethesda.net and told them exactly why I've cancelled ESO Plus on both of my accounts.

Yup, so did I. Got a reply as well saying it had been passed on to the relevant people.

Heh, we'll see. I work in customer service myself and know exactly what that sentence means. Happy to be proved wrong.

Hurbster

I have one character that went far enough for caltrops and that's it. I got as far as I needed and then stopped, because I don't like PvP and hated every second in there. Good job because if I had I might have been tempted to spend money on the skill lines, which I am sure is the real reason for this.

Zenimax/Bethesda - shame on you. Now you are not getting any money from me whatsoever.

Nicole94

esotoon wrote: »

Wytch wrote: »

I'm curious about something. I don't disagree in principle. I am positive they are using a proctological approach to try and bleed us for more money. What I am curious about is why some people think this has anything at all to do with the riding lessons?

[snip]

What they ARE trying to force down our throats thru the store is the PvP skill lines that of course can only be bought together and thus require being double the normal skill line price, at 3000 crowns for the combo PER ALT

Why does it have to be either/or. Why not both? And whilst you're at it, throw in a nice 2 player mount into the mix to give them 3 income steams from this change, depending on people's priorities.

Those not averse to PVP take the riding lessons. Those who are willing to grind it out once but no more take the skill lines. And those who refuse to PVP or don't have money themselves, can persuade their rich mates to get a two seater and give them a lift.

I enjoy pvp, well I enjoy the transmutes and the fun of running with friends doing it. I am not very good at it I have bought ridding lessons in the past I will NEVER, EVER buy them again if they do not make rapids available via the tutorial again. I also bought alliance war skill out on my first stamina character for Vigor and Caltrops, again something else they will NEVER get from me again.
People that pvp will do exactly like I will do. Make and alt and park it at the stables for 35- 50 days. We will do this BECAUSE we do NOT like slow walking doing skyshards and running dolmens.

The people giving tips on "how easy it is to earn AP" are missing the point and should start their OWN thread, they can call it "Tips on how to level your alliance war skill." I have even told the Moderators of this forum that they break their OWN "community rules" https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/502831/community-rules by allowing people to post tips on how easy it is to get a skill back that we HAD for SIX years. The TITLE of this thread is "Please give us back Rapids" IT is NOT asking for tips on how to do something. I DO NOT want tips! I want ZoS to either put rapids back to Rank 2 allowing it to unlock with the tutorial or PROVIDE a reason WHY it cannot!

The moderators need to DO their JOB and stop allowing the conversations to be constantly derailed with flame wars about how easy it is to get AP. I have asked for a reason as to why they inconvenienced me or that they put Rapids back, PERIOD.
Posting videos of someone gaining 30k AP in thirty minutes to an hour has NOTHING to do with the conversation, make a new thread or STOP reading this thread. It is not constructive and adds nothing to the conversation. I have tagged ZoS employees until they told me not to.
I expect a answer, I WILL have an answer. Money talks, and it can and will walk. Understand, I am not threatening to leave a game I enjoy over a silly skill. I WILL leave the game over the lack of respect for the player base. You don't have to please me, I am not a child, but I expect a REASON to be given as to WHY you have done this! Ignore me, pull my comments down, edit them what ever you want to do, but I will have an answer.
This change seems spiteful and vindictive. like "You guys asked for easier access to a stamina heal? Here take this! Don't like it? Tough, we are not going to even acknowledge that you are unhappy about it." I believe you guys are better than that, and your loyal fanbase deserves better than this.

Sylvermynx

Um. I don't use rapids. Never have. So they're not getting any money from me for that, or for pvp skills (as I wouldn't EVER spend enough time in pvp to get to 10).

I've put vigor on a couple of NBs instead of whatever it's called in the siphoning line - but I don't play the NBs very much as it's not a viable option considering my ping (VERY high....)

I hope y'all get your rapids back. But I won't myself ever use it regardless. I'm - more of a "take time to smell - and pick - the flowers" person.

shadyjane62

Since the rapids massacre, I have considered pvp as a grocery shopping trip. I go to Crops or Vlast on one toon and Bruma on another. I don't bother to join the fight cuz only my main has rapids. and Aldmeri suck. I used to be able to join with lesser toons in Legendary and 810cp and compete. But I don't have rapids so I deleted those toons.

I guess pvp is over for me cuz I don't spend anymore money than my sub for this old game.

silvereyes

joerginger wrote: »

Rapids was used all the time unless while crafting Vivec City

Even multiplied by a dozen alts, it's still only an extra couple of minutes a day to do writs without Rapids. Even if I could pay to make this go away, I wouldn't. It's not worth it.

ZOS gets no extra money from me. They get no additional investment in the game from me. The only net affect of the change is to make me sad.

They do this sort of thing so frequently, it boggles the mind. A multi-bidding "feature" that drive bids up and melts the bidding system. "Performance" improvements that cause massive desyncs and skills to not fire. Not upgrading veteran arena weapons to perfected versions. And now, grind-locking a skill that's been free for six years and has a large effect on player enjoyment.

smh

JoeCapricorn

A lot of the past changes that were made did not have quite the broad negative impact on daily QOL as this one.

Some of the changes you mention have silver linings. The multi-bidding feature allows a guild to have a backup in case their main bid fails. Arena weapons available in Normal modes makes those a bit more accessible to players, but I do empathize with those who spent long hours grinding for that same weapon in Veteran mode only to have to do that all again to get the Perfected version.

The silver lining for this change? Vigor is easier to get. But now Rapid Maneuver is gated behind PVP grind, which not everyone has the will or time to do. Even on my other Stamina alts, Vigor isn't that terribly useful, since I have been using class skills for healing instead.

I will say I never liked the change to Rally that removed the heal-over-time, though. But that skill is still a useful one as it can be a quick heal (as long as you remember to keep Rally active constantly). I was able to unlock Rally and Leaching Strikes on my second stamblade before I hit level 50 - up until that point, using a magicka heal was all I really needed. The most challenging thing I was doing were the public dungeon group challenges though.

All in all the silver lining in this case is vastly overshadowed by the annoying inconvenience of losing a skill I had for six years.

Recapitated

There is no reason why active and passive skills can't be moved around to make them both -- Vigor and Rapids that is -- accessible easily. Hell you could unlock both at the same rank.

Noggin_the_Nog

[quote="Nicole94;
This change seems spiteful and vindictive. like "You guys asked for easier access to a stamina heal? Here take this! Don't like it? Tough, we are not going to even acknowledge that you are unhappy about it." I believe you guys are better than that, and your loyal fanbase deserves better than this. [/quote]

Brilliant.

Could not have written it better.

itscompton

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

That would require doing that kind of a grind on 11 additional characters. It isn't as easy as doing just the tutorial quests either, Assault rank 5 requires 98,000 AP. That takes hours.

I don't have the time, motivation and energy to do that kind of grind on 11 characters.

I play ESO as an escape from reality, to destress, and Rapid Maneuver is a long-standing part of my gameplay. It's how I move around whenever I am on a mount. I have it on every bar on every character.

I have done the tutorial quests and it got me to Assault Level: 2. Whoop dee doo. If they required Assault level 3 for Rapids, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But it is Assault level 5.

I don't have the time or mental energy to grind that out on all of my other alts. I am not going to. So I hope they change it back or find a compromise that makes everyone happy.

Many of my characters aren't built for PVP, they are mules and have no skillpoints allocated to weapons or armor. Just crafting. There is no way they would be able to get Assault to 5. But Rapid Maneuver forms a basic method of mobility. It allows me to get to a bank NPC (and when applicable) an Outlaw Hideout just to unload stuff or sell stuff on a guild trader.

It allows new characters to move around without feeling like their mounts are made of molasses. It will be 55 days before my lowbie gets 60 in speed.

Even then, 60 speed feels too slow. I like Rapids just to go faster. I just like going faster. You know what I would rather do? Grind for 11 other Rings of the Wild Hunt

[Edited for removed content] [Further edited to fix some grammar issues caused by previous edit]

So what I'm reading is you created 11 crafting mules, never bothered to take them into PvP for a half hour to get rapids, and now suddenly you're upset that it will take longer to do it if you ever do? And that's totally ruining the game and making you want to quit?

Hurbster

itscompton wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

That would require doing that kind of a grind on 11 additional characters. It isn't as easy as doing just the tutorial quests either, Assault rank 5 requires 98,000 AP. That takes hours.

I don't have the time, motivation and energy to do that kind of grind on 11 characters.

I play ESO as an escape from reality, to destress, and Rapid Maneuver is a long-standing part of my gameplay. It's how I move around whenever I am on a mount. I have it on every bar on every character.

I have done the tutorial quests and it got me to Assault Level: 2. Whoop dee doo. If they required Assault level 3 for Rapids, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But it is Assault level 5.

I don't have the time or mental energy to grind that out on all of my other alts. I am not going to. So I hope they change it back or find a compromise that makes everyone happy.

Many of my characters aren't built for PVP, they are mules and have no skillpoints allocated to weapons or armor. Just crafting. There is no way they would be able to get Assault to 5. But Rapid Maneuver forms a basic method of mobility. It allows me to get to a bank NPC (and when applicable) an Outlaw Hideout just to unload stuff or sell stuff on a guild trader.

It allows new characters to move around without feeling like their mounts are made of molasses. It will be 55 days before my lowbie gets 60 in speed.

Even then, 60 speed feels too slow. I like Rapids just to go faster. I just like going faster. You know what I would rather do? Grind for 11 other Rings of the Wild Hunt

[Edited for removed content] [Further edited to fix some grammar issues caused by previous edit]

So what I'm reading is you created 11 crafting mules, never bothered to take them into PvP for a half hour to get rapids, and now suddenly you're upset that it will take longer to do it if you ever do? And that's totally ruining the game and making you want to quit?

You are reading it wrong. He did the tutorial, got rapids now no longer has Rapids.

silvereyes

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Some of the changes you mention have silver linings. The multi-bidding feature allows a guild to have a backup in case their main bid fails. Arena weapons available in Normal modes makes those a bit more accessible to players, but I do empathize with those who spent long hours grinding for that same weapon in Veteran mode only to have to do that all again to get the Perfected version.
[snip]
All in all the silver lining in this case is vastly overshadowed by the annoying inconvenience of losing a skill I had for six years.

My point is, there needn't have been such a false dilemma between good and bad changes for any of these instances. Every one of these changes should have been 100% positive, but ended up being soured.

Multibidding: Trade guilds asked for a way to secure good spots without exorbitant bids. What we got instead was a complicated (10 bids!!! Why??), chaotic system requiring more gold and exceeding the capacity of their servers to handle.

Arena weapons: If they had done everything the same, but upgraded existing vet arena weapons to perfected, nearly everyone would have been overjoyed.

Vigor: If they had put Rapids into Support Rank 2 and moved Revealing Flare into Assault, everyone would have been happy.

There are ways of moving the game in the direction that you want as a game developer without inciting riots with every change. All it takes is a willingness to work with the community and be responsive to feedback.

What I have seen instead is that ZOS will decide to do something, realize that players will not like some major aspects of the decision, and then say, "deal with it", and expend zero effort to find a win-win compromise. It's like they realize they can't make everyone happy, so they don't even try. It's this kind of, "my way, or the highway," attitude that has so many people turned off from the company as a whole.

Superflytenorguy

I never thought about any pvp skill lines until everyone started complaining about rapid maneuver. Its awesome! Thanks friends

JoeCapricorn

itscompton wrote: »

So what I'm reading is you created 11 crafting mules, never bothered to take them into PvP for a half hour to get rapids, and now suddenly you're upset that it will take longer to do it if you ever do? And that's totally ruining the game and making you want to quit?

No.

I had rapids on my 11 alts and it was taken away and put behind a wall of 5 hours of stuff I don't want to do to get them back.

I wouldn't really call them all crafting mules. They are characters I created over the years. When I want to do something different, I create a new character. Usually when they hit level 10 I go into Cyrodiil, speedrun that introductory quest, and that was all I had to do to get Rapid Maneuver. No PVP necessary.

With my most recent character, it was even easier. I just did the introduction quest for Midyear on him, and he got Rapid Maneuver at level 3. I am probably not going to level him properly until his mount speed is 60 though.

silvereyes wrote: »

Vigor: If they had put Rapids into Support Rank 2 and moved Revealing Flare into Assault, everyone would have been happy.

That is another idea! I do wish they reverse course and implement this instead, that way we get the best of both worlds. Free vigor and rapids.

Zephiran23

Put another alt through the 3-5 grind yesterday as part of a group. Leadership was regular pvpers, with numbers fluctuating from 10-15, since a lot of people are off in Imperial City.

The experience was about what I expected. If we set off as a group, then getting Rapids from someone else wasn't a problem and most of us ended up at the objective at about the same time. Forward camps weren't being used much, so there was some riding back from the nearest keep and this is where the frustration set in. Either players riding past seemingly oblivious to the fact that they could recast to share it so that they weren't just charging past me, or having to deal with opposing players trying to stop reinforcements.

Not annoying enough to make me want to cancel my ESO+, but at the level where future purchases are going to come under far more scrutiny. This is not a good example of developers clearly communicating the reasons for their decisions before implementing them, or reacting in a timely manner after the fact.