Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

ShadowWolf44

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Please require "Assault" level 2 for Rapid Maneuver again.

Not all of my characters are PVP friendly but all of them use Rapid Maneuver for the extra mount speed when riding around the world. This is a very basic ability I require for a new character just to move around especially when mount speed is so low! PLEASE do not require assault level 5 for this, please undo this change!

I agree, 100%. But, you see? They do not care, what we like. They cater to NEW players, not LOYAL players. They could care less about us. I've been going 4 years. I do NOT do PVP, nor BG's. Only rarely do I do anything in Cyro.

So, while I've still got Rapids on 3 of my toons, None of the others now have it. So, instead of getting to continue on, with the new ADDITION I regretfully now purchased, I will have to go grind 17 GD toons, or quit the game.

I'm leaning towards "quit", which is probably what they wished, for me at least, all along, if you've ever seen what they've done to me- calling Factual, Provable reports I've filed about in the forums, "conspiracy theories", so they could close down my posts, to hide the truth.

I've offered them the evidence, multiple times. They won't even look at it. Nor will they respond to my reports on other issues- for the past 3 months. That's what they call, "Conspiracy Theories".

Like I said, don't expect any changes. They appear to be looking for players, THEY LIKE, and catering to those, exclusively. They rest of us? Can just "deal", or "quit". I don't believe they really care.

Triballian

Even if they admit the mistake and return to the previous situation, that does not change the fact that the person who came up with it and the team of people who approved it are still in the positions that make the decision. Do not expect anything good in the future with such a team.
This change is obviously mostly defended by pure PvP players, who have those skills at the maximum anyway. How much they are just trying to explain to us how to most easily collect AP points.
Thanks to them for that, as a sign of gratitude, they received BG + AFK from me.

Sgrug

Triballian wrote: »

Even if they admit the mistake and return to the previous situation, that does not change the fact that the person who came up with it and the team of people who approved it are still in the positions that make the decision. Do not expect anything good in the future with such a team.
This change is obviously mostly defended by pure PvP players, who have those skills at the maximum anyway. How much they are just trying to explain to us how to most easily collect AP points.
Thanks to them for that, as a sign of gratitude, they received BG + AFK from me.

QFT

Jaraal

Triballian wrote: »

Even if they admit the mistake and return to the previous situation, that does not change the fact that the person who came up with it and the team of people who approved it are still in the positions that make the decision. Do not expect anything good in the future with such a team.

Remember that these are the same people who invalidated a 20 year tradition of Bosmer lore by removing their stealth and replacing it with a PvP only skill that nobody wanted or asked for. And the same folks who had us sacrificing heroes to save the world, but later magically brought them back to life to sell more expansions.

SilverBride

Nicole94 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

if even half of the people who say they have or will unsub over this actually do, that hurts the game

I really doubt that happens. People say things in the heat of the moment, but often make a different choice when they have had time to cool down.

You can doubt all you want.

Maybe I should change that to say "I really hope that doesn't happen." Not because I care if the game loses subscriptions, but because I would really hate to see people leave a game they still enjoy over something like riding fast for a few seconds. I know this is a huge deal for some, and I've tried to understand it, but I honestly can't.

Sgrug

SilverBride wrote: »

Nicole94 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

if even half of the people who say they have or will unsub over this actually do, that hurts the game

I really doubt that happens. People say things in the heat of the moment, but often make a different choice when they have had time to cool down.

You can doubt all you want.

Maybe I should change that to say "I really hope that doesn't happen." Not because I care if the game loses subscriptions, but because I would really hate to see people leave a game they still enjoy over something like riding fast for a few seconds. I know this is a huge deal for some, and I've tried to understand it, but I honestly can't.

Many people can't understand why Vigor was such a big deal, I do not see anyone calling for it to be returned, just asking for ZoS to make a more reasonable change with rapids.

Linaleah

SilverBride wrote: »

Nicole94 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

if even half of the people who say they have or will unsub over this actually do, that hurts the game

I really doubt that happens. People say things in the heat of the moment, but often make a different choice when they have had time to cool down.

You can doubt all you want.

Maybe I should change that to say "I really hope that doesn't happen." Not because I care if the game loses subscriptions, but because I would really hate to see people leave a game they still enjoy over something like riding fast for a few seconds. I know this is a huge deal for some, and I've tried to understand it, but I honestly can't.

you don't have to understand though. just accept that for many people - this actualy genuinely ruins the enjoyment. without riding fast for a few seconds that seems so inconsequential to you? for people, the fun is simply gone. the no longer enjoy the game. so once again you do not have to understand it yourself, since dealbreakers are different for different people. just accept that for a number of people? this is a deal breaker, the thing that stops something being fun.

I'm going to try to make an example. lets say. you enjoy reading fiction. you enjoy reading a LOT. and you use a particular app to read ebooks. for years, that app offers an ability to change fonts of the book you are reading. it is a big part of enjoyment of using this app for you, being able to change the font to the one you like best. except. one day. the app just... takes that ability away and puts it behind a .... I don't know, having to read a dozen books with their default font before you can get ability to change it back (or if you bought some books through the app - you still have the ability, but if you didn't - you have to unlock it) is it going to be fun for you to read books in a font that is not enjoyable, that may even make it difficult for you to read? its only a few books, short stories also qualify, but the process itself is just so unfun that for many MANY people - they would rather move on to a different app, that doesn't make them jump through hoops to regain functionality they had acess to for years.

you may still not understand and THAT is ok. that you are rejecting and refusing experiences of other people just because you personaly cannot relate? THAT is your issue.

for you - nothing has changed. you haven't used rapids before, you are still not using them, so I get why YOU don't care. I don't have to understand why you don't use rapids, just accept that for you they are not important. but for us? EVERYTHING has changed. that you would rather resort to petty ideas like "well maybe NO ONE SHOULD HAVE ANY ACCESS IN PVE, AT ALL" rather then accept that you preferences don't match other people's preferences? is very telling.

Ackwalan

There was a change to how rapids is earned? Why wasn't this mentioned before?

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

Maybe I should change that to say "I really hope that doesn't happen." Not because I care if the game loses subscriptions, but because I would really hate to see people leave a game they still enjoy over something like riding fast for a few seconds. I know this is a huge deal for some, and I've tried to understand it, but I honestly can't.

If you are genuinely trying to understand why people have a problem with this, let's try a thought experiment:

Take Vigor out of the equation. We all know players could have been given Vigor in a way that didn't affect Rapid users, so forget about that side of things. Now imagine...

You wake up tomorrow and load the game you have been playing for 6+ years, only to find the developers have removed the ability to "run". Instead the set movement speed when you press 'w' is "walk". Everything you do, everything you have enjoyed over the last 6 years you now have to do at a much slower pace.

In order to get "run" back you now have to spend 2.5 hours minimum (probably more like 5 hours for most) per character grinding in a zone you might not enjoy. If you have 18 characters, that means you have to spend a minimum of 2 whole days of your life, and potentially up to 5+ days of your life, in order to get the game experience back to how you like it and how you have been playing for 6+ years.

There was no need for the developers to do this. They just did because they didn't think people using 'run' all the time was as necessary as players were telling them it was.

Would you:

a) Be ok with that?
b) Feel like the developers gave a damn about your time?
c) Feel like the developers were in touch with the needs of a large portion of its player base?
d) Want to continue playing the game and supporting those developers?

ckwolfling

Rapids might not be essential to some but I use Rapids on EVERY character. I have 12 chars on one account with several others on alternate accounts. I give my daily login alliance points to my newbies so I WON'T have to pvp to get rapids. GIVE us BACK rapids. I HATE pvp and the grind to get to alliance rank 5 on all of my characters is horrendous especially since none of them are built for pvp. This feels like five steps back and not a step forward. Keep vigor at 1. I don't care. But DO put Rapids back at alliance rank 1. Pretty please, with sugar on top.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

SilverBride wrote: »

Nicole94 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

if even half of the people who say they have or will unsub over this actually do, that hurts the game

I really doubt that happens. People say things in the heat of the moment, but often make a different choice when they have had time to cool down.

You can doubt all you want.

Maybe I should change that to say "I really hope that doesn't happen." Not because I care if the game loses subscriptions, but because I would really hate to see people leave a game they still enjoy over something like riding fast for a few seconds. I know this is a huge deal for some, and I've tried to understand it, but I honestly can't.

The reason it is huge deal for a number of players is this isn't an isolated incident but a continuation of poorly thought out decisions and ZOS staying silent on the rationale behind them. In addition to Rapid Maneuvers you have the changes to Vigor, the VMA weapon, removing ability to queue to battle grounds with friends, seemingly arbitrary changes and/or nerfs to skills, performance changes that worsen performance, etc. Even when ZOS has had negative feedback via the PTS and class reps they barrel ahead player base be darned. At some point you have to decide to continue to be a masochist or move on to other games where the developers treat the players better.

Jaraal

It's like somebody taking your Corvette and replacing it with a Yugo, then telling you they're doing it so they can sell the Corvette and buy a Kia for stamina users.

It's not the best analogy..... but there Yugo.

SilverBride

Linaleah wrote: »

...for many people - this actualy genuinely ruins the enjoyment. without riding fast for a few seconds that seems so inconsequential to you? for people, the fun is simply gone. the no longer enjoy the game.

People keep saying over and over that this has ruined the game for them. But I will never understand this until someone shows even one single thing they can no longer do in the game, besides move faster for a few seconds.

• Can you still complete quests?
• Can you still run dungeons and trials?
• Can you still do world bosses? (I am not asking if you can get to the bosses fast, just if you can still do them. Because you can always get in a group and "travel to player" to get there quickly.)
• Can you still craft?
• Can you still decorate your home?
• Can you still PvP? (If you are in a PvP group and someone else uses rapids, you get the buff, too.)

And I am not asking if you can do these things as fast as before. Just if you can still do them.

So please, show us something you acutally cannot still do.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

[*] Can you still PvP? (If you are in a PvP group and someone else uses rapids, you get the buff, too.)

I hope you will try my thought experiment above to help you understand.

But specifically on this point, this is not true. Rapids hits a max of 12 players so you might not get rapids. It also has a range, so if you are on a slower horse, even if you get rapids when your group starts off, after 30 seconds, you might not get it again.

WeerW3ir

Seriously. The time you spending here... Eh. You could have just farm it under it

Sgrug

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

...for many people - this actualy genuinely ruins the enjoyment. without riding fast for a few seconds that seems so inconsequential to you? for people, the fun is simply gone. the no longer enjoy the game.

People keep saying over and over that this has ruined the game for them. But I will never understand this until someone shows even one single thing they can no longer do in the game, besides move faster for a few seconds.

• Can you still complete quests?
• Can you still run dungeons and trials?
• Can you still do world bosses? (I am not asking if you can get to the bosses fast, just if you can still do them. Because you can always get in a group and "travel to player" to get there quickly.)
• Can you still craft?
• Can you still decorate your home?
• Can you still PvP? (If you are in a PvP group and someone else uses rapids, you get the buff, too.)

And I am not asking if you can do these things as fast as before. Just if you can still do them.

So please, show us something you acutally cannot still do.

And those without Vigor could still heal... It does not matter if you can't understand how someone else enjoys something. To insist that because you can't others are wrong speaks volumes as another pointed out earlier.

I do not recall anyone saying they could not do something, only that is is much less enjoyable, you are making a strawman argument.

oregonrob

I do not use either rapids, or vigor. I go to Cyrodiil to get purge for the classes that lack it as a skill set. However, I know I would be mad if the developers suddenly decided to move purge to a support level 8, especially if they did not refund back a skill point.

It looks like the pool of players who use rapids is considerably bigger than the subset who use vigor. But vigor is important to stam builds in PVP. Rather that fight with each other, what solution is there that will work for both the rapids users and the vigor users? For example, if rapids was moved to become a world skill, what would PVP players like to see take its place in the Support skill line? If rapids does become a world skill, what skill tree would need to be created that it would become part of?

What I take away from these thread is that there are a lot of creative and savvy players in this game. Lets work the problem rather than fight over the current situation.

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

I hope you will try my thought experiment above to help you understand.

"You wake up tomorrow and load the game you have been playing for 6+ years, only to find the developers have removed the ability to "run". Instead the set movement speed when you press 'w' is "walk"."

There is a big difference between taking away run, which is a base ability, not a skill... and quick bursts of faster mount speed.

They aren't taking away your basic ability to move around the world, and they never would. They are just making it so you have to do a little more work to get an extra speed boost. Extra... on top of your basic abilities and the mount speed you are able to increase.

And we have yet to have anyone give a solid example of one thing they cannot do any more.

Hurbster

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

...for many people - this actualy genuinely ruins the enjoyment. without riding fast for a few seconds that seems so inconsequential to you? for people, the fun is simply gone. the no longer enjoy the game.

People keep saying over and over that this has ruined the game for them. But I will never understand this until someone shows even one single thing they can no longer do in the game, besides move faster for a few seconds.

• Can you still complete quests?
• Can you still run dungeons and trials?
• Can you still do world bosses? (I am not asking if you can get to the bosses fast, just if you can still do them. Because you can always get in a group and "travel to player" to get there quickly.)
• Can you still craft?
• Can you still decorate your home?
• Can you still PvP? (If you are in a PvP group and someone else uses rapids, you get the buff, too.)

And I am not asking if you can do these things as fast as before. Just if you can still do them.

So please, show us something you acutally cannot still do.

Psijic Order grind without wanting to chew my own foot off.

SilverBride

Hurbster wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

So please, show us something you acutally cannot still do.

Psijic Order grind without wanting to chew my own foot off.

I recently did the Psijic Order quest chain, and this is why I am missing a few toes. But I wasn't frustrated by how fast I was or wasn't moving. It was just the most boring, tedious, mind numbing thing I've encountered in game to date.

snarkomatic

SilverBride wrote: »

And we have yet to have anyone give a solid example of one thing they cannot do any more.

Because no one was trying to, and you're the only one asking for this strawman to be built in the first place. You've made your opinion clear, why not take a break and leave room for the new additions to this thread to express their concerns?

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

There is a big difference between taking away run, which is a base ability, not a skill... and quick bursts of faster mount speed.

It was a thought experiment, to ask how you would feel. The fact that you have failed to engage with that but instead wanted to focus on what is/isn't a skill, rather than the impact it would have on you as a person, suggests that either you are not wanting to understand other peoples points of view as much as you say you are, or you are not a very empathetic person [*] , in which case there is probably no way you will ever be able to understand how something impacts others that doesn't impact you.

[*] I don't mean that as any kind of insult. Some people are more empathetic than others. Neither is better/worse, just different.

quick bursts of faster mount speed.

The fact that you say this, shows you do not understand how some people use rapids. When I am wanting to do content faster, I use it ALL the time, not just quick bursts.

They aren't taking away your basic ability to move around the world, and they never would.

Neither would be making you walk instead of run, but you fail to see that.

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There is a big difference between taking away run, which is a base ability, not a skill... and quick bursts of faster mount speed.

It was a thought experiment, to ask how you would feel. The fact that you have failed to engage with that but instead wanted to focus on what is/isn't a skill, rather than the impact it would have on you as a person, suggests that either you are not wanting to understand other peoples points of view as much as you say you are, or you are not a very empathetic person.

I get your thought experiment, but using an example of something that would never happen doesn't bring the idea home. This has nothing to do with empathy, and I will not have my character questioned on a gaming forum.

My opinion has been all along that the impact of not moving fast is minimal, and doesn't stop you from doing anything in game. If people would give specific examples on how this has ruined their game play, it would be a lot easier to understand their view. Just saying "It's not fun any more." doesn't tell us anything.

Tsar_Gekkou

Lots of classes have some kind of heal that they can use for overland stuff besides vigor, or they can run with a healer. No class has access to gallop so it should be unlocked first. Pretty simple.

Noisivid

SilverBride wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There is a big difference between taking away run, which is a base ability, not a skill... and quick bursts of faster mount speed.

It was a thought experiment, to ask how you would feel. The fact that you have failed to engage with that but instead wanted to focus on what is/isn't a skill, rather than the impact it would have on you as a person, suggests that either you are not wanting to understand other peoples points of view as much as you say you are, or you are not a very empathetic person.

I get your thought experiment, but using an example of something that would never happen doesn't bring the idea home. This has nothing to do with empathy, and I will not have my character questioned on a gaming forum.

My opinion has been all along that the impact of not moving fast is minimal, and doesn't stop you from doing anything in game. If people would give specific examples on how this has ruined their game play, it would be a lot easier to understand their view. Just saying "It's not fun any more." doesn't tell us anything.

I have explained it, the posts are still in the threads.

In my opinion the impact of not moving fast is not minimal in many circumstances, the Psijiic quest line, collecting skyshards/lorebooks, riding around Cyrodil for PvP, helping guildies clear world bosses and dolmens, doing crafting surveys, etc, etc. even just general questing about. Can it still technically be done, yes, but I find all these things much less enjoyable w/out Rapids, and that's the point. Apparently quite a few people concur with me.

You don't agree with us and that is fine. You don't have to understand it either.

We are still "entitled" to express our dissatisfaction on the forums.
Anything else that I've needed to say about this change has been posted in these threads before.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

I get your thought experiment, but using an example of something that would never happen doesn't bring the idea home.

You can not say with 100% certainty that it would never happen. And again, it was a thought experiment. It wasn't about whether it would or wouldn't happen, it was to ask you to imagine that if it DID happen, how you would feel.

This has nothing to do with empathy, and I will not have my character questioned on a gaming forum.

Understanding how something impacts others that does not impact you has everything to do with empathy.

I apologise if you thought I was questioning your character. That was not my intention, unless you were being disingenuous in saying you were trying hard to understand other people's point of view.

My opinion has been all along that the impact of not moving fast is minimal, and doesn't stop you from doing anything in game.

No one has said that it stops them from doing anything in the game. They have said that this impacts their time and enjoyment of the game.

You said that you found the Psijic grind tedious. If you went to do it on a different character tomorrow only to be told you have to do it for 2 hours longer for no reason whatsoever, would that be a good or bad thing? Using rapids takes 2 hours off the time it takes to level the psijic skill line.

SilverBride

Noisivid wrote: »

We are still "entitled" to express our dissatisfaction on the forums.

And I am entitled to express my opinon that this is a very trivial matter that is being blown way out of proportion.

esotoon wrote: »

Using rapids takes 2 hours off the time it takes to level the psijic skill line.

Have you actually tested this, or are you just speculating?

zergbase_ESO

SilverBride wrote: »

Noisivid wrote: »

We are still "entitled" to express our dissatisfaction on the forums.

And I am entitled to express my opinon that this is a very trivial matter that is being blown way out of proportion.

It is trival. Same people keep bumping the post so its small minority just screeching like a small child. The time they spent screeching they could have rapids already.

Linaleah

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

...for many people - this actualy genuinely ruins the enjoyment. without riding fast for a few seconds that seems so inconsequential to you? for people, the fun is simply gone. the no longer enjoy the game.

People keep saying over and over that this has ruined the game for them. But I will never understand this until someone shows even one single thing they can no longer do in the game, besides move faster for a few seconds.

• Can you still complete quests?
• Can you still run dungeons and trials?
• Can you still do world bosses? (I am not asking if you can get to the bosses fast, just if you can still do them. Because you can always get in a group and "travel to player" to get there quickly.)
• Can you still craft?
• Can you still decorate your home?
• Can you still PvP? (If you are in a PvP group and someone else uses rapids, you get the buff, too.)

And I am not asking if you can do these things as fast as before. Just if you can still do them.

So please, show us something you acutally cannot still do.

sigh,

you do not have to understand it.

why is it so hard to accept that just because something is still fun for you, DOES NOT MEAN ITS STILL FUN FOR OTHER PEOPLE?

in my example of an app and reading books. with a change you can STILL read books. the change is the HOW. and that HOW is what is no longer fun.

again. you do not need to personaly relate. simply accept that your preferences =/= other people's preferences, and your priorities =/= other people's priorities.

Linaleah

oregonrob wrote: »

I do not use either rapids, or vigor. I go to Cyrodiil to get purge for the classes that lack it as a skill set. However, I know I would be mad if the developers suddenly decided to move purge to a support level 8, especially if they did not refund back a skill point.

It looks like the pool of players who use rapids is considerably bigger than the subset who use vigor. But vigor is important to stam builds in PVP. Rather that fight with each other, what solution is there that will work for both the rapids users and the vigor users? For example, if rapids was moved to become a world skill, what would PVP players like to see take its place in the Support skill line? If rapids does become a world skill, what skill tree would need to be created that it would become part of?

What I take away from these thread is that there are a lot of creative and savvy players in this game. Lets work the problem rather than fight over the current situation.

the solution was offered again. and again. and again. move vigor to first skill in support line, leave rapids as first skill in assault line. TaDA. both are available at lvl 10, stamina players get their easy heal, and players using rapids - get to keep using rapids.