Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

Then what's your complaint?

I've voiced my complaint in this thread already. I'd rather not do it again. I was just pointing out that you can get this "PVP Skill" by doing PVE, which kind of makes a nonsense of anyone saying that the change is a good thing because you now have to "PvP to get a PvP skill". Nothing has changed in that regard from before this change was made.

DarcyMardin

I don’t really like to argue on the Internet, as it rarely leads to anyone changing their mind and can lead, instead, to unpleasantness. But I enjoy courteous and intelligent discussion, and I do find it often in this forum.

When it comes to the debate about the Rapids change, however, I’ve found that I’ve been adding more people than ever before to my originally-very-short ignore list. I’m mystified as to why people voicing their concerns about a major change should cause so much heated backlash.

Obsidian3

I'll start with quoting myself.

nukk3r wrote: »

So I just checked a thing. I went to some keeps that were recently defended and just repaired the walls. It got me 30k AP in about 30 min. I didn't fight anyone and didn't have to ride anywhere, just chilled in empty keeps and pressed one button.

First of all 30min was an approximate time. AP gain can go faster or slower depending on how the situation is for your alliance. The more bonuses your alliance has, the better. I don't record every second of my gameplay but I wish I had the video of that exact day.

Here's the video I promised. Monday, PC EU, Gray Host at prime time (my time zone is UTC+2). I got 20k AP in exactly 30 minutes (which is an equivalent of finishing second in two BG matches). It could be 24k with 20% AP buff from a delve boss and more if my alliance had outlier keeps under control at the moment of recording. 30k isn't unattainable or outlandish. But even at this rate you get 40-50k AP an hour for doing no PvP at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRWuniJmQCc

@Obsidian3 Just because you had different experience, doesn't mean I'm lying.[/quote]

@nukk3r

Uhh you said repairing walls in Lagodill got you 30k AP in half-hour. I still call B.S. on that. I don't care how much you made in BG's.

Why do you PVPers come in here and tell lies? Are you all just looking for a fight everywhere you go? Might wanna think about that.

I am done with these threads. Rich's response says it all, they aren't going to change it.

Here's my feedback: I unsubbed my alt account.

linlilia

I just finished getting rapids on 11 characters (the ones that did not have it done of my 18, and it took on average 2.25 hours each of solid pvping. Half in prime time, half solid grouping and the fastest was 1.5 hours, slowest was 3 hours. And I missed half the ticks just trying to get to fights.

If they thought that this was a quality of life improvement man were they wrong. Also with the stamina drain bug it is even worse. 4 seconds for my "baby" horses to run out of stamina. Terrible experience, and took a week of solid work to do.

With all the end game bugs in this patch, I am not impressed ZOS. Honestly I am preferring the bugs that require fast hot patches that you get done.

But anyone that says they can get 120k AP in under an hour love to know how, because on smaller characters it is not going to happen..............Only good thing about this is in 3 weeks I will have at least 11 sets of 50 transmute crystals taking up my mail space.

My advice to anyone going through this, only do the grind after you set the Champaign to Home to get the transmutes......You will get to just under tier 3 rewards....................

SydneyGrey

SilverBride wrote: »

I see it more like this:

-Child A has an ice cream.
-Child B wants a lolly pop.
-Parent removes Child A's ice cream because he didn't finish his dinner, then gives Child B a lolly pop because he did finish his.
-Everybody tries to reason with Child A telling him he can still have his ice cream, but he has to meet the requirement of finishing his dinner first.

But Child B didn't finish his dinner either, if Vigor is moved to the first slot so that you don't have to do any work to get it. Your analogy is flawed.

SydneyGrey

I'll say it again:
Try to do the entire Psijic skill line without Rapids, on a magicka character that doesn't have a lot of stamina anyway.
Let me know how it went.


Sure, you could do it just fine, but it would take forever and be boring as heck.

linlilia wrote: »

...... And I missed half the ticks just trying to get to fights. .......

And this right here is why it will be VERY frustrating to have to get Rapids on characters from now on. Yeah, we can do Battlegrounds, and put up with abuse for not being good fighters, but I'd rather earn AP in Cyrodiil. Less abuse and more fun, at least if we can get to the fights in time.

RavenSworn

gonna have to say.... blame it on the PvE'ers.

Linaleah

nukk3r wrote: »

@Linaleah @pkostadinov

I'll start with quoting myself.

nukk3r wrote: »

So I just checked a thing. I went to some keeps that were recently defended and just repaired the walls. It got me 30k AP in about 30 min. I didn't fight anyone and didn't have to ride anywhere, just chilled in empty keeps and pressed one button.

First of all 30min was an approximate time. AP gain can go faster or slower depending on how the situation is for your alliance. The more bonuses your alliance has, the better. I don't record every second of my gameplay but I wish I had the video of that exact day.

Here's the video I promised. Monday, PC EU, Gray Host at prime time (my time zone is UTC+2). I got 20k AP in exactly 30 minutes (which is an equivalent of finishing second in two BG matches). It could be 24k with 20% AP buff from a delve boss and more if my alliance had outlier keeps under control at the moment of recording. 30k isn't unattainable or outlandish. But even at this rate you get 40-50k AP an hour for doing no PvP at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRWuniJmQCc

@Obsidian3 Just because you had different experience, doesn't mean I'm lying.

so I see. there may have been a misunderstanding here - as in we were apparently talking about a different thing and I have possibly misread..

to hit rank 5, even at your rate would take considerably more then 30 minutes. the number thrown around is that you can unlock rapids (which are rank 5 in skill line) in 30 minutes.

according to this site https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points - rapids unlock at total of 98,000 ap points. even if you subtract the points you get for doing intro quest (which is if I remember correctly - is about 3k) that is still BEST case scenario - 3 hours of doing this. per character>

moreover. Gray host is alliance locked campaign, which means if your alts are spread across multiple campaigns - they cannot do this. only one alliance can go in per account. your video starts with you already in a castle and you are lvl 50, using class speed boosts. how long did it take you to get TO the castle? but fine, lets assume you found castle to travel to as soon as you zoned into Cyrodil and it was only 5 extra minutes for loading screens and shopping for repair kits.

isn't there double ap in Cyrodil right now? that's going away in a few hours? which will make this gain more like 15k ap per half hour? which will make it 3 hours+ tp get rapids back per character - best case scenario?

no. I'm not sure if you personaly ever claimed that you can get rapids in half an hour of play. but several people in this thread did. and I think your video shows that at least repair method is NOT going to allow anywhere NEAR that.

Nicole94

Linaleah wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

@Linaleah @pkostadinov

I'll start with quoting myself.

nukk3r wrote: »

So I just checked a thing. I went to some keeps that were recently defended and just repaired the walls. It got me 30k AP in about 30 min. I didn't fight anyone and didn't have to ride anywhere, just chilled in empty keeps and pressed one button.

First of all 30min was an approximate time. AP gain can go faster or slower depending on how the situation is for your alliance. The more bonuses your alliance has, the better. I don't record every second of my gameplay but I wish I had the video of that exact day.

Here's the video I promised. Monday, PC EU, Gray Host at prime time (my time zone is UTC+2). I got 20k AP in exactly 30 minutes (which is an equivalent of finishing second in two BG matches). It could be 24k with 20% AP buff from a delve boss and more if my alliance had outlier keeps under control at the moment of recording. 30k isn't unattainable or outlandish. But even at this rate you get 40-50k AP an hour for doing no PvP at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRWuniJmQCc

@Obsidian3 Just because you had different experience, doesn't mean I'm lying.

so I see. there may have been a misunderstanding here - as in we were apparently talking about a different thing and I have possibly misread..

to hit rank 5, even at your rate would take considerably more then 30 minutes. the number thrown around is that you can unlock rapids (which are rank 5 in skill line) in 30 minutes.

according to this site https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points - rapids unlock at total of 98,000 ap points. even if you subtract the points you get for doing intro quest (which is if I remember correctly - is about 3k) that is still BEST case scenario - 3 hours of doing this. per character>

moreover. Gray host is alliance locked campaign, which means if your alts are spread across multiple campaigns - they cannot do this. only one alliance can go in per account. your video starts with you already in a castle and you are lvl 50, using class speed boosts. how long did it take you to get TO the castle? but fine, lets assume you found castle to travel to as soon as you zoned into Cyrodil and it was only 5 extra minutes for loading screens and shopping for repair kits.

isn't there double ap in Cyrodil right now? that's going away in a few hours? which will make this gain more like 15k ap per half hour? which will make it 3 hours+ tp get rapids back per character - best case scenario?

no. I'm not sure if you personaly ever claimed that you can get rapids in half an hour of play. but several people in this thread did. and I think your video shows that at least repair method is NOT going to allow anywhere NEAR that.

Not to mention the 60k AP he used and I forget how much those sell for with gold but has to be close to 20k to buy 200 Keep repair kits. Something a newer person will NOT have access to. These are fruitless arguments made for no reason.
I am not wanting to reverse the changes with Vigor, Vigor should be available at rank 3 for pve players. Rapids should have stayed at Rank 2 for everyone. Giving those that want rapids at the end of the tutorial access to it, or letting Stamina players grab Vigor.

I have no idea why so many lobby for Rapids to be harder to get, is it because they lack skill and social skills to run with groups and now have newbies moving the slowest for easy farming for ego points? I have no idea.

This conversation was never about US vs Them or PvP VS PvE. It is about a skill that has been easily obtainable since 3/2/14 at least that is when i started. I can't actually remember if Rapids was even in the game at that time, but it was added very soon somewhere during the Beta iirc. This swap was poorly thought out, and for them to say after six years this was intended to be used only for Cyrodiil.... Have they REALLY been that busy in all this time... I hate when they insult my intelligence with a terrible, poorly thought out excuse. They have changed Battle Spirit several times... If it was only for Cyrodiil, could it not be built in to that? Bleh. Thank you for your comment

Uudrost

My understanding is that ZOS was confronted with a huge increase in players due to Covid-19.
This resulted in considerable lag - hence the change to Rapid Maneuver.
Understandable, but then ZOS must be making a ton of money off of new "Covid-19" players.
So what will happen?
I'm terrible at PVP despite hours of effort.
I'm giving it to the end of the year when my subscription is up.
I've been a loyal customer for 5 years and have purchased everything they have to offer other than "eye candy".

SilverBride

SydneyGrey wrote: »

I'll say it again:
Try to do the entire Psijic skill line without Rapids, on a magicka character that doesn't have a lot of stamina anyway.
Let me know how it went.

I did, very recently. It was the most tedious, boring thing I've had to do in game to date, but not because of mount speed. Just because of all the repetition.

nukk3r

Linaleah wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

@Linaleah @pkostadinov

I'll start with quoting myself.

nukk3r wrote: »

So I just checked a thing. I went to some keeps that were recently defended and just repaired the walls. It got me 30k AP in about 30 min. I didn't fight anyone and didn't have to ride anywhere, just chilled in empty keeps and pressed one button.

First of all 30min was an approximate time. AP gain can go faster or slower depending on how the situation is for your alliance. The more bonuses your alliance has, the better. I don't record every second of my gameplay but I wish I had the video of that exact day.

Here's the video I promised. Monday, PC EU, Gray Host at prime time (my time zone is UTC+2). I got 20k AP in exactly 30 minutes (which is an equivalent of finishing second in two BG matches). It could be 24k with 20% AP buff from a delve boss and more if my alliance had outlier keeps under control at the moment of recording. 30k isn't unattainable or outlandish. But even at this rate you get 40-50k AP an hour for doing no PvP at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRWuniJmQCc

@Obsidian3 Just because you had different experience, doesn't mean I'm lying.

so I see. there may have been a misunderstanding here - as in we were apparently talking about a different thing and I have possibly misread..

to hit rank 5, even at your rate would take considerably more then 30 minutes. the number thrown around is that you can unlock rapids (which are rank 5 in skill line) in 30 minutes.

according to this site https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points - rapids unlock at total of 98,000 ap points. even if you subtract the points you get for doing intro quest (which is if I remember correctly - is about 3k) that is still BEST case scenario - 3 hours of doing this. per character>

moreover. Gray host is alliance locked campaign, which means if your alts are spread across multiple campaigns - they cannot do this. only one alliance can go in per account. your video starts with you already in a castle and you are lvl 50, using class speed boosts. how long did it take you to get TO the castle? but fine, lets assume you found castle to travel to as soon as you zoned into Cyrodil and it was only 5 extra minutes for loading screens and shopping for repair kits.

isn't there double ap in Cyrodil right now? that's going away in a few hours? which will make this gain more like 15k ap per half hour? which will make it 3 hours+ tp get rapids back per character - best case scenario?

no. I'm not sure if you personaly ever claimed that you can get rapids in half an hour of play. but several people in this thread did. and I think your video shows that at least repair method is NOT going to allow anywhere NEAR that.

I never claimed that. You may check my comment history. I did say that it will take 2 hours to get 98k AP.

This video was about me trying to reproduce my AP gain from the other day. My video starts at the alliance base, then I jump to the castle via transitus shrine. All the loading times are in the video, and you can see that shopping time takes couple of seconds when I refill the kits. Right now you're nitpicking.

There's no double AP in Cyrodiil now.

Like I said that wasn't the point of this video. I got 20k in 30 minutes in less than ideal conditions, it can be up to 30k in better conditions. Slap a delve buff on it and it'll be 20% more, 48k an hour for 2 hours is 96k. It's the most amount of AP you can get for avoiding opposing factions. I provided a solution and even spent my time recording it, I don't really care what you'll do with this information.

Nicole94 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

@Linaleah @pkostadinov

I'll start with quoting myself.

nukk3r wrote: »

So I just checked a thing. I went to some keeps that were recently defended and just repaired the walls. It got me 30k AP in about 30 min. I didn't fight anyone and didn't have to ride anywhere, just chilled in empty keeps and pressed one button.

First of all 30min was an approximate time. AP gain can go faster or slower depending on how the situation is for your alliance. The more bonuses your alliance has, the better. I don't record every second of my gameplay but I wish I had the video of that exact day.

Here's the video I promised. Monday, PC EU, Gray Host at prime time (my time zone is UTC+2). I got 20k AP in exactly 30 minutes (which is an equivalent of finishing second in two BG matches). It could be 24k with 20% AP buff from a delve boss and more if my alliance had outlier keeps under control at the moment of recording. 30k isn't unattainable or outlandish. But even at this rate you get 40-50k AP an hour for doing no PvP at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRWuniJmQCc

@Obsidian3 Just because you had different experience, doesn't mean I'm lying.

so I see. there may have been a misunderstanding here - as in we were apparently talking about a different thing and I have possibly misread..

to hit rank 5, even at your rate would take considerably more then 30 minutes. the number thrown around is that you can unlock rapids (which are rank 5 in skill line) in 30 minutes.

according to this site https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points - rapids unlock at total of 98,000 ap points. even if you subtract the points you get for doing intro quest (which is if I remember correctly - is about 3k) that is still BEST case scenario - 3 hours of doing this. per character>

moreover. Gray host is alliance locked campaign, which means if your alts are spread across multiple campaigns - they cannot do this. only one alliance can go in per account. your video starts with you already in a castle and you are lvl 50, using class speed boosts. how long did it take you to get TO the castle? but fine, lets assume you found castle to travel to as soon as you zoned into Cyrodil and it was only 5 extra minutes for loading screens and shopping for repair kits.

isn't there double ap in Cyrodil right now? that's going away in a few hours? which will make this gain more like 15k ap per half hour? which will make it 3 hours+ tp get rapids back per character - best case scenario?

no. I'm not sure if you personaly ever claimed that you can get rapids in half an hour of play. but several people in this thread did. and I think your video shows that at least repair method is NOT going to allow anywhere NEAR that.

Not to mention the 60k AP he used and I forget how much those sell for with gold but has to be close to 20k to buy 200 Keep repair kits. Something a newer person will NOT have access to. These are fruitless arguments made for no reason.
I am not wanting to reverse the changes with Vigor, Vigor should be available at rank 3 for pve players. Rapids should have stayed at Rank 2 for everyone. Giving those that want rapids at the end of the tutorial access to it, or letting Stamina players grab Vigor.

I said before that you can invest gold in your first stack of repair kits. 18k gold is easy even for a brand new player, there's a ton of guides on how to do that. After that you can buy the kits with the AP you get.

ohaphazardo

Subscription cancelled, Rapid M was the only thing that kept this laggy, slow as heck game tolerable.
FFXIV bought.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

agegarton

Sgrug wrote: »

Obsidian3 wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

[Quoted post was removed]

Agree. I'm in the process of levelling a new toon - playing Cyrodiil without rapids is incredibly tedious. I'm basically playing a riding simulator mini-game, where if I'm lucky I reach the UA keep before the battle is decided. Such fun. Epic fail on the part of ZoS.

Triballian

For all PvE players advice,battlegrounnds
+ AFK. You are forcing us to do something you did not like, now enjoy what you do not like.

Jensmom

I am sick and tired of the devs ruining the game for PvE players to make PvP people happy. First it was Earthgore. Remember that? Fab heal; they could have just made it nerfed in Cyrodill, but noooooo they want to make PvP happy. Now the Vigor. How many will really benefit in the total game vs. PvP? Again, it's small. I too went to get my rapids and then with the exception of 2 toons never went back unless it was an event where I needed to visit every area. Now, not only do I have to take toons that I create post change, but if my toons weren't leveld to 5 in PvP I have to do it AGAIN? Never used vigor, have no use for vigor and am royally PISSED that I have to take ALL my baby toons to really play PvP in order to get a skill I use(d) every time I rode a horse!

DUMB DUMB DUMB and really, why? To get more of us in there? WHAT was the reason for the change? I still haven't heard any rationale for it.

esotoon

Jensmom wrote: »

I am sick and tired of the devs ruining the game for PvE players to make PvP people happy. First it was Earthgore.

The developers have said that this change was in order to give PVE players easy access to a stam heal. So you are blaming the wrong player base.

I hope people will remember this is the future, and perhaps aim their anger where it should be placed instead of at other players who play a different part of the game than they do. That kind of division is exactly what the developers hope for because it allows them to continue to fail without being made accountable because the player base is too busy infighting.

United we stand, divided we fall.

(See here [LINK] for ZOS' comments on this change.)

Avoranti

I was coming here for this very complaint. It’s ridiculous that players have to go back in to broken, laggy af Cyrodiil to level the skill line more to get back a skill we already had. They should have just granted the level up to 5 for players who already had it or not changed it at all.

Sgrug

SilverBride wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

I have rapids on all my characters, but I see how this change has affected my guildies...

This just made me realize something. Not one person in my guild has brought this up, let alone indicated that it's negatively affecting them. And I've not heard a single person in zone chat, in any zone, complain about it. I don't think this is an actual in game issue as much as it is a forum issue.

Odd I see it all the time, it is a major compliant in ALL my guilds and I have seen it brought up frequently in zone chat.

Sgrug

esotoon wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Hey, I don't know if anyone here has noticed, but we finally have a comment from a higher up in regards to the issue.

Thanks for this, however it raises even more questions.

"Rapid maneuvers was intended as a pure PvP skill to compensate for the dimensions and long walking distances in Cyrodiil."

If this was meant as a "pure PVP skill" to compensate for the size of Cyrodiil:

a) Why wasn't it added as part of the Battle Spirit, instead of as a skill, so it wouldn't be abused by people using it outside of Cyrodiil?

b) Has Cyrodiil suddenly changed size? If not, why are you disadvantaging PVP Players in order to make this change, are they less important to you than PVE players?

c) Why is this skill still usable outside of Cyrodiil?

d) Are the other Alliance-War skills also meant to be "Pure PVP Skills"? If not, why weren't "pure PVP skills" given their own Skill Line?

e) Given that PVE players have been able to obtain this Skill from Cyrodiil, for 6 years, by doing PVE only, and since the start of the game have been able to use the skill outside of Cyrodiil, and can still use the skill outside of Cyrodiil, isn't the fact that it may have been first devised to be a "pure PVP skill" totally irrelevant? If not, what has suddenly changed in the game to make this fact relevant now?

We force PvP players into PvE without any major complaints. So why not go into PvP if you want to have a PvP skill? In addition, you can quickly get to level 3 with the PvP tutorial alone and can quickly catch up with the rest with conquest quests or BGs. U50 characters in particular should participate in the appropriate campaign from 30 times; In my experience, things are quite relaxed there.

This same argument can be used for leaving Vigor where it was. Not to mention it ignores the fact that PVE'ers will still have to go to Cyrodiil to get Caltrops, Barrier, Warhorn.

I also come from a MMO generation when you didn't get everything thrown back and a wipe in one evening could easily erase the entire progress of the evening.

Would that be the same generation that didn't use Crown Crates and other psychologically manipulative sales tactics to milk their customers, because if you would like to go back to that time, I'm all for it. If not, this is irrelevant, times have changed and ESO is not that type of MMO.

But of course it's always unfortunate to take something away from players that they have gotten used to, and we are closely following the feedback here.

If you knew this, why didn't you make this change in a manner that wouldn't adversely affect anyone? As had been suggested multiple times during the PTS, make Vigor and Rapids the first skills in both Alliance-War Lines, or make Vigor unlock at rank 2, and Rapids at rank 3?

Why are you closely following feedback? The PTS testers told you this was a bad idea, they gave you multiple possible better solutions, and you went through with it anyway. If you ignore them, what difference will "Closely following feedback" make?

Rich explains that they wanted to make Vigor more accessible to PvE players. The team also knew it would be controversial.

You say it is to give PVE Stamina players a heal.

a) Why didn't you do what you said you would do 3 years ago, and rework the skill lines of classes to be more like the Necro and Wardens, with a DPS/Heal/Tank skill line and give players an early game Stamina heal as part of that change? Especially as being a HOT, Vigor is not a very effective heal at low levels, a time when Stamina classes are most in need of a Stamina heal currently?

b) You say you also did it because you don't necessary want PVE players to have to PVP in order to be successful. Does this mean that you will also be changing skills like Caltrops, Barrier and Warhorn that PVE players also use in order to be successful? If not, why is it ok for PVEers to have to PVP for some skills to be succesful, and not for others?

c) If PVPers are forced to PVE in order to be successful at PVP, and now you have prioritised Vigor over Rapids at the expense of PVP players solely to help PVE players "be successful at PVE without PVPing", what reason is there for PVP players to feel like you give a damn about them in this game?

Your post destroys the entire argument the Dev made. I still LOL at the continued statement "they did it to give sta PVE a heal." Do the Dev's seriously think we will believe they do not know there is a thing called a resto staff in the game that is available to ALL the players from the very beginning?

Sta PVE always had a heal. And the whole Dev argument is circular as you pointed out.

Now we are supposed to also believe for PVE play they want everyone to be much slower moving around to get to any location over PVP? The single most common gate for pay is time, it nearly is gated in every online / mobile pay scheme but we are supposed to believe it has nothing to do with that, the intent was always to make PVE waste time by being slower getting everywhere as opposed to PvE. Odd I do not recall that coming out over the last 6 years.

The reminds me a of an old saying we used in the military for such ideas, "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining."

SilverBride

Rowjoh wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

You may have trouble finding them, because a huge amount of those complaining don't PvP. That is their entire issue. They used rapids so their new characters could move around quickly before they max their mount speed... if they ever do. They are completely outraged that they now have to actually PvP to gain this skill.

tomofhyrule

I have no horse in this fight (lol, get it!) since I never use Rapids or Vigor. I did use Rapids in Cyrodiil since it is a long ride, but that was on a character that already had Assault/Support over 5 (thank you MYM AP bonus!)

I'm sure the thing that's not helping right now either is the fact that mount stamina is currently bugged to drain way faster than it should on certain characters, which they're looking into.

...but I have to respond to this:

Sgrug wrote: »

Your post destroys the entire argument the Dev made. I still LOL at the continued statement "they did it to give sta PVE a heal." Do the Dev's seriously think we will believe they do not know there is a thing called a resto staff in the game that is available to ALL the players from the very beginning?

Sta PVE always had a heal. And the whole Dev argument is circular as you pointed out.

Yes. Let's apply that logic to other parts of the game:

"OMG why is everyone always asking for a melee magicka weapon? Do the Dev's seriously think we will believe they do not know there is a thing called a sword and board weapon in the game that is available to ALL the players from the very beginning?

Magicka players always had a melee weapon line."

The point isn't the stam players having a heal, it's the stam players having access to a heal that uses stamina. Most stam PvEers will have minimal magicka with 0 points allotted, so a self heal that uses magicka is a one-time use thing for them. That means that they can't have an accessible class/weapon heal like magicka characters do since they won't naturally have the resources to use it frequently.

Not to mention that putting a different weapon on will cause you to lose your stam weapons for a bar.

Incidentally, the example I used is the same idea - mag players want a melee weapon that will allow then to regen mag with a heavy. The melee weapons all are stam and will regen stam with heavies. I don't know if that would introduce balance issues since the melee weapons deal with stam which is also used for dodge/block, whereas a magica character in melee range wouldn't have to deal with resource management like that unless their block also used mag, but that's an argument for another thread. And as much as I empathize, I really would favor spears as a new weapon style anyway.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

They are completely outraged that they now have to actually PvP to gain this skill.

Why do you keep repeating this when it's not true? They don't have to PVP to gain the skill. They can get it without ever seeing an enemy player.

Varana

SilverBride wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

from now on whenever I see someone riding at the speed paint dries in Cyrodiil I'll make damn sure I gank them in the hope that they are one of the anti-rapids brigade

You may have trouble finding them, because a huge amount of those complaining don't PvP. That is their entire issue. They used rapids so their new characters could move around quickly before they max their mount speed... if they ever do. They are completely outraged that they now have to actually PvP to gain this skill.

I don't have to PvP. I can park my char in the starting area of Battlegrounds and go make myself some coffee in the meantime, ruining three other players' PvP fun in the process. Win-win.
Forcing players who don't want to into PvP is an exceptionally dumb idea.

Fuzzybrick

I'm oblivious... Haven't read any notes, and I'm at work... You're saying rapids have been moved down to a higher rank so you don't start out with the skill? The only reason I hate cyrodiil is because it takes a month and a day to travel anywhere... Why would I go there now that I have to move slower?

Sgrug

Fuzzybrick wrote: »

I'm oblivious... Haven't read any notes, and I'm at work... You're saying rapids have been moved down to a higher rank so you don't start out with the skill? The only reason I hate cyrodiil is because it takes a month and a day to travel anywhere... Why would I go there now that I have to move slower?

/s-on Why it's obvious, because it is a PvP only skill according to the Dev, it is required becuase of the long distances in Cyrodill. Obviously it made sense then to make it even harder to get for new toons in PvP by moving it up, ya know because it is needed for the long distance and the new toons will not have max horse speed so... /s-off

Wow my head is spinning at the twisting of what the Dev said...

Noisivid

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

You can PVE and still get it.

Then what's your complaint?

Its more of a "I can complain so I shall complain" sort of thing around here. Always has been.

Players should be able to complain about changes to the game that negatively affect their enjoyment of the game.

Sgrug

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I have no horse in this fight (lol, get it!) since I never use Rapids or Vigor. I did use Rapids in Cyrodiil since it is a long ride, but that was on a character that already had Assault/Support over 5 (thank you MYM AP bonus!)

I'm sure the thing that's not helping right now either is the fact that mount stamina is currently bugged to drain way faster than it should on certain characters, which they're looking into.

...but I have to respond to this:

Sgrug wrote: »

Your post destroys the entire argument the Dev made. I still LOL at the continued statement "they did it to give sta PVE a heal." Do the Dev's seriously think we will believe they do not know there is a thing called a resto staff in the game that is available to ALL the players from the very beginning?

Sta PVE always had a heal. And the whole Dev argument is circular as you pointed out.

Yes. Let's apply that logic to other parts of the game:

"OMG why is everyone always asking for a melee magicka weapon? Do the Dev's seriously think we will believe they do not know there is a thing called a sword and board weapon in the game that is available to ALL the players from the very beginning?

Magicka players always had a melee weapon line."

The point isn't the stam players having a heal, it's the stam players having access to a heal that uses stamina. Most stam PvEers will have minimal magicka with 0 points allotted, so a self heal that uses magicka is a one-time use thing for them. That means that they can't have an accessible class/weapon heal like magicka characters do since they won't naturally have the resources to use it frequently.

Not to mention that putting a different weapon on will cause you to lose your stam weapons for a bar.

Incidentally, the example I used is the same idea - mag players want a melee weapon that will allow then to regen mag with a heavy. The melee weapons all are stam and will regen stam with heavies. I don't know if that would introduce balance issues since the melee weapons deal with stam which is also used for dodge/block, whereas a magica character in melee range wouldn't have to deal with resource management like that unless their block also used mag, but that's an argument for another thread. And as much as I empathize, I really would favor spears as a new weapon style anyway.

False narrative, for years magika players could not run effectively because of stamina, the Devs did not take stamina away from the stamina players, no they fixed it so everyone could run effective enough to balance it out. Such changes were recommended for Rapids and those recommendation were ignored, this is not an either / or this should have been an "and" solution, the real reason for this has not being given and it likely will not because it probably has nothing to do with game-play.

They admit they knew this was going to be an issue in the player base, when someone knows something is going to be an issue they generally have a GOOD reason to stick with a hard choice.

We have not heard that good reason, there are ways to mitigate this yet they have chosen to bring the pain.. All because sta needed vigor easier to obtain in the early levels? Seriously how does that justify NOT making Rapids a little easier to get than it is now?

SilverBride

Varana wrote: »

I don't have to PvP. I can park my char in the starting area of Battlegrounds and go make myself some coffee in the meantime, ruining three other players' PvP fun in the process. Win-win.

So you consider "ruining three other players' PvP fun in the process." acceptable? [Snip]

[Edited for bait]