Please give us back Rapid Maneuver!

OldManJim

So "play the game your way" actually means "oh but we didn't intend for you to play it like that..."

I see it like this:

-Child A has an ice cream.
-Child B wants a lolly pop.
-Parent decides to take away Child A's ice cream & gives Child B a lolly pop.
-Everybody attacks Child A for being upset.


I really don't understand why certain people here are so vehemently attacking people for providing customer feedback that they aren't happy with a QoL decrease. Just because you don't hear about it in chat or elsewhere doesn't mean people are not happy. Don't forget you're only in 5 guilds and only in one zone at a time for a limited number of hours per day. And just because you don't use a skill doesn't mean others don't or can't.

Edit: Yes I realise I’m going to be attacked over this post... It’ll simply prove my point.

SilverBride

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I can't answer for those other skills because rapids is the one they claimed to always have been intended to be a pure PvP skill. You will have to ask them that.

show me when they claimed it years ago rather then just week ago AS A PERSONAL OPINION, and then we can talk.

I don't have to show you anything. This came right out of the horse's mouth (no pun intended). You can choose to believe what he said, or not.

Thechuckage

Maybe because people disagreeing isnt a personal attack.

Some see a QoL increase, its not a "everyone is getting hosed here" and again, while everyone who had it unlocked *could* use it, doesn't mean it was.

There are more positions here than: customer vs company and shills.

Linaleah

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I can't answer for those other skills because rapids is the one they claimed to always have been intended to be a pure PvP skill. You will have to ask them that.

show me when they claimed it years ago rather then just week ago AS A PERSONAL OPINION, and then we can talk.

I don't have to show you anything. This came right out of the horse's mouth (no pun intended). You can choose to believe what he said, or not.

I have already explained why a recent statement from one person in a company of hundreds? thousands? specifically stating that its their personal opinion no less - is NOT a definitive "this is how it always was" this... is what's known as GASLIGHTING.

I believe that its his personal opinion now. but that doesn't make it a FACT that always was.

SilverBride

OldManJim wrote: »

So "play the game your way" actually means "oh but we didn't intend for you to play it like that..."

I see it like this:

-Child A has an ice cream.
-Child B wants a lolly pop.
-Parent decides to take away Child A's ice cream & gives Child B a lolly pop.
-Everybody attacks Child A for being upset.

I see it more like this:

-Child A has an ice cream.
-Child B wants a lolly pop.
-Parent removes Child A's ice cream because he didn't finish his dinner, then gives Child B a lolly pop because he did finish his.
-Everybody tries to reason with Child A telling him he can still have his ice cream, but he has to meet the requirement of finishing his dinner first.

Ei8htba11

Maybe shouldn't have given him the ice cream before dinner?

Parenting error.

SilverBride

True. But now they want to correct their mistake. And they are the parents. And they make the rules.

DarcyMardin

A great many of us would really appreciate it if they would find an alternative solution to the problem, rather than depriving us of a skill that some of us subscribers have been using since the very beginning of this game.

SilverBride

They aren't depriving you of anything. You can still get the skill.

Elsonso

I might be waaay out of line here, but I don't think this has anything to do with ice cream and lollipops.

SilverBride

It was a good analogy he gave, though.

OldManJim

SilverBride wrote: »

OldManJim wrote: »

So "play the game your way" actually means "oh but we didn't intend for you to play it like that..."

I see it like this:

-Child A has an ice cream.
-Child B wants a lolly pop.
-Parent decides to take away Child A's ice cream & gives Child B a lolly pop.
-Everybody attacks Child A for being upset.

I see it more like this:

-Child A has an ice cream.
-Child B wants a lolly pop.
-Parent removes Child A's ice cream because he didn't finish his dinner, then gives Child B a lolly pop because he did finish his.
-Everybody tries to reason with Child A telling him he can still have his ice cream, but he has to meet the requirement of finishing his dinner first.

Child A has not done anything wrong at all.

We obtained a skill by doing what was required (the PvP intro quest), but now Zenimax has changed the rules & moved the goal posts for no reason. It's like telling a child they can have desert if they eat their vegetables. They eat them, start desert, then give them a flogging because they didn't eat their meat as well.

Meanwhile the rest of the family are standing by screaming "How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat..."

People are acting like we deserve to be punished for no reason other than a skill is under the PvP line & we use it outside of PvP.

OldManJim

Elsonso wrote: »

I might be waaay out of line here, but I don't think this has anything to do with ice cream and lollipops.

It's my way of trying to simplify things so the "other side" can see things from our point of view.

SilverBride

OldManJim wrote: »

Child A has not done anything wrong at all.

We obtained a skill by doing what was required (the PvP intro quest), but now Zenimax has changed the rules & moved the goal posts for no reason. It's like telling a child they can have desert if they eat their vegetables. They eat them, start desert, then give them a flogging because they didn't eat their meat as well.

Meanwhile the rest of the family are standing by screaming "How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat..."

You're acting like we deserve to be punished for no reason other than a skill is under the PvP line & we use it outside of PvP.

They didn't tell you have to do both A and B (vegetables and meat). First you did A to get dessert. Now you do B.

This is not a punishment. It's a change in an online game. About riding your horse fast. C'mon...

Honestly, you should be lucky you still get ice cream at all. They could have swapped it for an apple.

OldManJim

SilverBride wrote: »

OldManJim wrote: »

Child A has not done anything wrong at all.

We obtained a skill by doing what was required (the PvP intro quest), but now Zenimax has changed the rules & moved the goal posts for no reason. It's like telling a child they can have desert if they eat their vegetables. They eat them, start desert, then give them a flogging because they didn't eat their meat as well.

Meanwhile the rest of the family are standing by screaming "How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat..."

You're acting like we deserve to be punished for no reason other than a skill is under the PvP line & we use it outside of PvP.

They didn't tell you have to do both A and B (vegetables and meat). First you did A to get dessert. Now you do B.

This is not a punishment. It's a change in an online game. About riding your horse fast. C'mon...

Honestly, you should be lucky you still get ice cream at all. They could have swapped it for an apple.

If it's just "a change in an online game" why are you arguing against us constantly? Why should it matter to you that we're unhappy about having a skill taken from us?

SilverBride

OldManJim wrote: »

Why should it matter to you that we're unhappy about having a skill taken from us?

Every change in the game affects everyone. So why shouldn't it matter?

People keep going on and on about how their characters, who don't and won't ever PvP, have to actually PvP now to get a PvP skill that makes you ride faster. The amount of outrage going on here is way out of proportion.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

Nicole94 wrote: »

Yes, and when you get your characters mount to "Max mount speed" I will fly by you like you are stopped, with my characters max mount speed +30%

I couldn't care less if "I will fly by you like you are stopped." I don't rush from Point A to Point B as fast as I can all day long. I actually stop and play the game.

This doesn't make sense. We are playing exactly the same game, only because you are slower, you end up playing less of the game in the same time period, than someone with rapids.

e.g. You and I both do the same quests. We start of at the quest giver, have to ride to the same destination to kill the bad guys, then we have to return back to the quest giver (including stopping and picking up that irresistible columbine we just spotted). We both take exactly the same steps, complete exactly the same activities, only I've completed the steps faster than you. Going fast or slow doesn't change this. However, because I'm going faster and completing quests faster, I am able to play more of the game than you, not less, over the same play time.

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Nicole94 wrote: »

Yes, and when you get your characters mount to "Max mount speed" I will fly by you like you are stopped, with my characters max mount speed +30%

I couldn't care less if "I will fly by you like you are stopped." I don't rush from Point A to Point B as fast as I can all day long. I actually stop and play the game.

This doesn't make sense. We are playing exactly the same game, only because you are slower, you end up playing less of the game in the same time period, than someone with rapids.

We may be playing exactly the same game in theory, but in actuality we aren't. I don't feel the need to rush through the content. Some day's I don't quest at all, but rather spend the day crafting or decorating my homes. Or some days I just do world bosses, or public dungeons to farm for items. Plus, I find myself walking a lot because I find nodes all over the place, and chests, and barely have time to get back on my mount before I find another.

esotoon wrote: »

However, because I'm going faster and completing quests faster, I am able to play more of the game than you, not less, over the same play time.

I didn't know it was a race.

OldManJim

This really has devolved into pointless bickering.

I don't think anything of value can be added by either the for or against camps.

Can the mods simply close this thread?

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

We may be playing exactly the same game in theory, but in actuality we aren't. I don't feel the need to rush through the content. Some day's I don't quest at all, but rather spend the day crafting or decorating my homes. Or some days I just do world bosses, or public dungeons to farm for items. Plus, I find myself walking a lot because I find nodes all over the place, and chests, and barely have time to get back on my mount before I find another.

You have repeatedly said or implied that people using rapids are "missing out" or "not playing the game". Now you get called on it, you change it to you were meaning people using rapids don't play the same way that you do.

You are entitled to play the game as you like, as is anyone else, however this wasn't what you were saying or implying.

I didn't know it was a race.

It isn't. You were the one telling people they were missing out or not playing the game by using rapids, I was just pointing out how nonsensical that was.

nukk3r

@Linaleah @pkostadinov

I'll start with quoting myself.

nukk3r wrote: »

So I just checked a thing. I went to some keeps that were recently defended and just repaired the walls. It got me 30k AP in about 30 min. I didn't fight anyone and didn't have to ride anywhere, just chilled in empty keeps and pressed one button.

First of all 30min was an approximate time. AP gain can go faster or slower depending on how the situation is for your alliance. The more bonuses your alliance has, the better. I don't record every second of my gameplay but I wish I had the video of that exact day.

Here's the video I promised. Monday, PC EU, Gray Host at prime time (my time zone is UTC+2). I got 20k AP in exactly 30 minutes (which is an equivalent of finishing second in two BG matches). It could be 24k with 20% AP buff from a delve boss and more if my alliance had outlier keeps under control at the moment of recording. 30k isn't unattainable or outlandish. But even at this rate you get 40-50k AP an hour for doing no PvP at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRWuniJmQCc

@Obsidian3 Just because you had different experience, doesn't mean I'm lying.

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

You have repeatedly said or implied that people using rapids are "missing out" or "not playing the game".

And I still believe that. You miss out on a lot by rushing past everything at full speed.

esotoon wrote: »

Now you get called on it, you change it to you were meaning people using rapids don't play the same way that you do.

That was calling me out? Sorry, I didn't notice. And I didn't change anything. You said we are playing the exact same game, and I showed you how we aren't.

esotoon wrote: »

You were the one telling people they were missing out or not playing the game by using rapids, I was just pointing out how nonsensical that was.

But it isn't. You rushing around like you're on fire, from quest to quest, may miss a lot of things along the way. I don't know why you feel the need to rush around at light speed, and cram as much content into every second you are playing as you possibly can. You doing 10 quests an hour to my 5 doesn't mean you are playing the game more than, or as much as, me. Because I do a lot of other things along the way, besides just quests.

I'm curious, do you do all the quests in a zone or just the storyline quests?

Then there are the posters here who claim they only use rapids to gather resources and make gold. Which makes no sense, because you would constantly be mounting, dismounting, gathering a node, etc.

Nicole94

SilverBride wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

You have repeatedly said or implied that people using rapids are "missing out" or "not playing the game".

And I still believe that. You miss out on a lot by rushing past everything at full speed.

esotoon wrote: »

Now you get called on it, you change it to you were meaning people using rapids don't play the same way that you do.

That was calling me out? Sorry, I didn't notice. And I didn't change anything. You said we are playing the exact same game, and I showed you how we aren't.

esotoon wrote: »

You were the one telling people they were missing out or not playing the game by using rapids, I was just pointing out how nonsensical that was.

But it isn't. You rushing around like you're on fire, from quest to quest, may miss a lot of things along the way. I don't know why you feel the need to rush around at light speed, and cram as much content into every second you are playing as you possibly can. You doing 10 quests an hour to my 5 doesn't mean you are playing the game more than, or as much as, me. Because I do a lot of other things along the way, besides just quests.

I'm curious, do you do all the quests in a zone or just the storyline quests?

Then there are the posters here who claim they only use rapids to gather resources and make gold. Which makes no sense, because you would constantly be mounting, dismounting, gathering a node, etc.

What in the..... are you on about? I have 18 characters I have done ALL of the quests in ALL of the zones so many times I could literally say the lines before the quest giver.. I don't do ALL the quests anymore, I have a friend give me ALL wayshrines in the game, unless they are locked behind quests, and I USE rapids to Skyshard and delve dive for skill points. I delete old characters I don't play so I can keep 1, and now because I will have to let them set for 2 months before going into Cyrodii, I will have 2 or 3 in the below 50 pvp area as well as having my big character in the above 50 pvp.

edited out my own rudeness, thank you Zos for making me a better person

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

You miss out on a lot by rushing past everything at full speed.

Can you name anything in the game that you do, that I don't do because I use rapids?

That was calling me out? Sorry, I didn't notice. And I didn't change anything. You said we are playing the exact same game, and I showed you how we aren't.

But we are. You see everything you said that you do, I do too. There are times I chose to do things faster, times I chose to do things slower, but there is nothing you wrote that I don't do.

But it isn't. You rushing around like you're on fire, from quest to quest, may miss a lot of things along the way.

Are you not able to see that this same argument can apply to you?

We can both walk the same path. I can use rapids and I get to ever node along that path first, and you walk behind and have nothing to pick up. You missed out. On the other hand I can use rapids, and miss nodes that are currently despawned, but because you are walking slowly behind, the nodes have now spawned, you get to pick them all and I have missed out. The same applies to every other aspect of the game.

I don't know why you feel the need to rush around at light speed, and cram as much content into every second you are playing as you possibly can. You doing 10 quests an hour to my 5 doesn't mean you are playing the game more than, or as much as, me. Because I do a lot of other things along the way, besides just quests.

Do you think completing quests faster gives players less or more time to decorate houses, farm nodes, fight world bosses and do all those other gamey things you listed?

I'm curious, do you do all the quests in a zone or just the storyline quests?

Depends on my characters. I have several that do all the quests, others I just level purely so I can PVP with them.

But if you still believe I'm "missing out", let me ask you a question. When you play the game, do you ever use mounts? When on foot do you run (just press "w") or do you set yourself to walk (the slowest speed possible)? If you use a mount, and don't set yourself to walk everywhere, why not? Aren't you, according to your logic, "missing out" by riding or running everywhere instead of walking?

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

Do you think completing quests faster gives players less or more time to decorate houses, farm nodes, fight world bosses and do all those other gamey things you listed?

Neither. There is no time limit for doing quests. Nor is there a rule that I have to do a certain number of quests before I am allowed to spend time doing other activities.

esotoon wrote: »

When you play the game, do you run (just press "w") or do you set yourself to walk (the slowest speed possible). If you don't set yourself to walk, why not? Aren't you, according to your logic, "missing out" by running everywhere instead of walking?

You are really grabbing at straws now. Of course I don't do the RP walk. And, yes I train my mount's speed. But I rarely use sprint, unless I'm running for my life. And I'm often moving around on foot. Surely you recognize the difference between using normal speed and having the "need" to use the highest speed possible at all times.

But stop throwing straw men out there and get back to the real issue:
You now have to PvP to get a PvP skill.

esotoon

SilverBride wrote: »

Neither. There is no time limit for doing quests. Nor is there a rule that I have to do a certain number of quests before I am allowed to spend time doing other activities.

I didn't say there was a time limit. But you dodging the question says a lot about your inability to back up your argument.

You are really grabbing at straws now. Of course I don't do the RP walk. And, yes I train my mount's speed. But I rarely use sprint, unless I'm running for my life. And I'm often moving around on foot. Surely you recognize the difference between using normal speed and having the "need" to use the highest speed possible at all times.

No, no I don't see the difference if the argument against people using Rapids is that by going faster they are "missing out" and "not playing the game". Either your logic applies to both or your logic doesn't hold up.

But stop throwing straw men out there and get back to the real issue:

I haven't thrown a straw man out there. I was responding to your repeated accusations that people who use Rapids are "missing out" or "not playing the game". However, if you stop saying that, I will gladly stop demonstrating the flaws in your argument.

You now have to PvP to get a PvP skill.

No you don't. You can PVE and still get it.

zaria

Sgrug wrote: »

finehair wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

So I just checked a thing. I went to some keeps that were recently defended and just repaired the walls. It got me 30k AP in about 30 min. I didn't fight anyone and didn't have to ride anywhere, just chilled in empty keeps and pressed one button.

video or it didn't happen.

because.

1. there were apparently enough recently defended keeps for you to travel to which is.. huh, interesting coincidence.
2. none of those keeps were repaired by people who defended them apparently - another interesting coincidence.
3. you apparently had a ton of repair kits on hand (or bough them and how much did THAT cost, I want the exact number of kits you used)

You get the defence tick on defended keeps if you repair ANY wall or door that is not %100 hp, and you need to repair it ONCE. Not to full hp, just spend 1 repair kit and boom, now you will get the same def tick as the guy who killed half of the enemy zerg by himself. You won't get the ap from kills obviously. But def ticks are the juiciest ap you get most of the time anyway.

I repeatedly told in this and other threads about rapid cries; join one of the crowded campaigns, in prime time there are keeps under attack almost %100 of the time. Buy yourself about 20 repair kits of each, and few oils if you want to help defending, but not necessary.

Then just read the zonechat, one of your homekeeps called us? Instantly port there and find a wall to repair, a back wall or postern house doesn't need to be the wall or door that is under siege. Nothing to repair? Heal someone who jumped from the wall. No one to heal? Do a light attack from wall to any enemy player. No ranged abilities? Buy a ballista and shoot something. Not enough ap to buy ballista? Steal one and shoot something once and leave it.


Doing one of these puts you on the defend tick list. If it's a small attack you'll get about 4-5k ap. If it's a decent attack you get 8-10k. If it's a proper siege you get 12-15. If it's one of those situations you barely defended you get over 20k. By doing nothing but being present there and doing one of those things.

Easier version; go one of the keeps that is likely to be under attack. Have 4 flaming oils ready. When enemy arrives and starts ramming, place 4 oils and "shoot" them all at once. You will get 3-4 kills in ram. Even if the keep is lost, you will get a defend tick from killing people. And because you are vastly outnumbered and killed multiple people, that def tick is stupidly big. Like at least 15k.

I got about 30k ap multiple times in one keep just from being the only person in the keep and oiling. Without any ap buff.

Sure but it is easier to just ignore this wall of text and cry about your "earned" rapids being taking away.

And I have started, having been a PvP player hardcore in 2015-2016 doing all you said it takes 5 to 7 hours to chase enough AP that way for a novice PvPr. That is a reasonable average, not pie in the sky, I am an uber PvP'r with social contacts in PvP and regular PvP groups AP/hr hardcore grind rate. I know because I went back knowing all you just wrote and I played on a busy server at peak time and it too me 6 hours for one toon and 5 for another.

5 to 7 hours is not game breaking but it is also not trivial, especially when a skill that has been used for 6 years was just taken away and made much more difficult to get, with a game-play style many who had Rapids before detest.

That sounds accurate, I leveled up the lasted alt made at launch of Skyrim during the PvP event, this was faster because double AP and lots of action in baby pvp, got to assault 7

Elsonso wrote: »

I might be waaay out of line here, but I don't think this has anything to do with ice cream and lollipops.

This more booze for everyone

JoeCapricorn

Rapids is a PVE skill. Look in the Spoiler to see how you can change my mind:

You can't.

SilverBride

esotoon wrote: »

You can PVE and still get it.

Then what's your complaint?

Nomadic_Atmoran

SilverBride wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

You can PVE and still get it.

Then what's your complaint?

Its more of a "I can complain so I shall complain" sort of thing around here. Always has been.