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The Stonethorn DLC and Update 27 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! Read the full patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts

PTS Update 27 - Feedback Thread for Combat & Classes

  • CrazYDunm3r
    CrazYDunm3r
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    katorga wrote: »
    All of this discussion is pointless until we see how badly each class is wrecked by the AOE nerfs.


    Especially classes like templar, but also others are heavily affected because some skills are mandatory to be used in succession.

    Useful community document: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QSEAlqv5mNVK9AWPhHUO_w-s9Pixa0qMRO4lWTjVpbE/edit#gid=0
    Edited by CrazYDunm3r on July 29, 2020 11:21AM
    YouTube
    Triggered Tryhards
  • brandoncoffmannub18_ESO
    brandoncoffmannub18_ESO
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    Any melee build/class should deal more damage than a ranged build/class, this is due to ease of access for ranged, lack of mobility for melee, and needing to stay in the thick of damage to deal damage.

    This is offset with Stamina being able to have stronger weapons than Magicka classes that are in melee such as MagDK, or MagPlar jabbing, as well as more resistances.

    A melee inferno staff, or a Fire Sword, that scales like a two-handed weapon. but Magicka, would be really nice as well as the light attack not having a travel time so it feels less awkward, and looks less awkward. This could also have a quicker heavy attack than ranged staves, allowing for a better sustain experience which MagDK is poorly lacking and it's not exactly fun to heavy attack or use spell symmetry, and building for recovery or cost reduction is out of the question because I already parse lower than Magblades ( which are ranged btw, but i don't want them nerfed ) of the same calibre this patch, so I can't afford any damage loss.
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
  • katorga
    katorga
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Any melee build/class should deal more damage than a ranged build/class, this is due to ease of access for ranged, lack of mobility for melee, and needing to stay in the thick of damage to deal damage.

    That would be true if gap closers did not exist.
  • Czekoludek
    Czekoludek
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    katorga wrote: »
    Any melee build/class should deal more damage than a ranged build/class, this is due to ease of access for ranged, lack of mobility for melee, and needing to stay in the thick of damage to deal damage.

    That would be true if gap closers did not exist.

    Does gap closers make you not take damage from the stomps in vHoF?
    Or keep you in range while kiting in vAS?
    Or keep you out of AoE range of most bosses?
    Or keep you from an awkward pathing cleave when your tank messes up or the game just *** itself?
    Or stop things from hitting you with melee attacks?

    No, it just closes the gap in PvP builds but aren't even that useful compared to range and not useful at all in end game PvE on a DPS especially for magicka. Even in PvP you have to be next to your target and someone can spam you from range.

    1. Major Evasion from DW is better there then any shield.
    2. Passives from medium armor increase your speed which help you with kitting
    3. Again in PvE you have Major Evasion + in trials you usually stay close to the boss at most cases. Dungs are quite different, stamina there have much harder job to do.
    4. On boss if tank dies magicka will die probably too as everyone will stay close for olo.
    5. You have a tank for that? For weaker mobs you have vigor as magicka have shields for that.

    Stam should deal more dmg if magicka use range setup. If magicka is melee then it should deal the same amount of damage
  • brandoncoffmannub18_ESO
    brandoncoffmannub18_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Czekoludek wrote: »
    katorga wrote: »
    Any melee build/class should deal more damage than a ranged build/class, this is due to ease of access for ranged, lack of mobility for melee, and needing to stay in the thick of damage to deal damage.

    That would be true if gap closers did not exist.

    Does gap closers make you not take damage from the stomps in vHoF?
    Or keep you in range while kiting in vAS?
    Or keep you out of AoE range of most bosses?
    Or keep you from an awkward pathing cleave when your tank messes up or the game just *** itself?
    Or stop things from hitting you with melee attacks?

    No, it just closes the gap in PvP builds but aren't even that useful compared to range and not useful at all in end game PvE on a DPS especially for magicka. Even in PvP you have to be next to your target and someone can spam you from range.

    1. Major Evasion from DW is better there then any shield.
    2. Passives from medium armor increase your speed which help you with kitting
    3. Again in PvE you have Major Evasion + in trials you usually stay close to the boss at most cases. Dungs are quite different, stamina there have much harder job to do.
    4. On boss if tank dies magicka will die probably too as everyone will stay close for olo.
    5. You have a tank for that? For weaker mobs you have vigor as magicka have shields for that.

    Stam should deal more dmg if magicka use range setup. If magicka is melee then it should deal the same amount of damage

    Yet melee magicka is a fair bit behind.
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
  • katorga
    katorga
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    katorga wrote: »
    Any melee build/class should deal more damage than a ranged build/class, this is due to ease of access for ranged, lack of mobility for melee, and needing to stay in the thick of damage to deal damage.

    That would be true if gap closers did not exist.

    Does gap closers make you not take damage from the stomps in vHoF?
    Or keep you in range while kiting in vAS?
    Or keep you out of AoE range of most bosses?
    Or keep you from an awkward pathing cleave when your tank messes up or the game just *** itself?
    Or stop things from hitting you with melee attacks?

    No, it just closes the gap in PvP builds but aren't even that useful compared to range and not useful at all in end game PvE on a DPS especially for magicka. Even in PvP you have to be next to your target and someone can spam you from range.

    If melee range is such a HUGE problem in pve, why was BfB so meta?
  • Czekoludek
    Czekoludek
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Czekoludek wrote: »
    katorga wrote: »
    Any melee build/class should deal more damage than a ranged build/class, this is due to ease of access for ranged, lack of mobility for melee, and needing to stay in the thick of damage to deal damage.

    That would be true if gap closers did not exist.

    Does gap closers make you not take damage from the stomps in vHoF?
    Or keep you in range while kiting in vAS?
    Or keep you out of AoE range of most bosses?
    Or keep you from an awkward pathing cleave when your tank messes up or the game just *** itself?
    Or stop things from hitting you with melee attacks?

    No, it just closes the gap in PvP builds but aren't even that useful compared to range and not useful at all in end game PvE on a DPS especially for magicka. Even in PvP you have to be next to your target and someone can spam you from range.

    1. Major Evasion from DW is better there then any shield.
    2. Passives from medium armor increase your speed which help you with kitting
    3. Again in PvE you have Major Evasion + in trials you usually stay close to the boss at most cases. Dungs are quite different, stamina there have much harder job to do.
    4. On boss if tank dies magicka will die probably too as everyone will stay close for olo.
    5. You have a tank for that? For weaker mobs you have vigor as magicka have shields for that.

    Stam should deal more dmg if magicka use range setup. If magicka is melee then it should deal the same amount of damage

    Yet melee magicka is a fair bit behind.

    Not really true without gloves and BfB nerfed
  • Onefrkncrzypope
    Onefrkncrzypope
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    katorga wrote: »
    katorga wrote: »
    Any melee build/class should deal more damage than a ranged build/class, this is due to ease of access for ranged, lack of mobility for melee, and needing to stay in the thick of damage to deal damage.

    That would be true if gap closers did not exist.

    Does gap closers make you not take damage from the stomps in vHoF?
    Or keep you in range while kiting in vAS?
    Or keep you out of AoE range of most bosses?
    Or keep you from an awkward pathing cleave when your tank messes up or the game just *** itself?
    Or stop things from hitting you with melee attacks?

    No, it just closes the gap in PvP builds but aren't even that useful compared to range and not useful at all in end game PvE on a DPS especially for magicka. Even in PvP you have to be next to your target and someone can spam you from range.

    If melee range is such a HUGE problem in pve, why was BfB so meta?

    Cause it almost did a third of a toons dps.
    If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling
  • brandoncoffmannub18_ESO
    brandoncoffmannub18_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    katorga wrote: »
    katorga wrote: »
    Any melee build/class should deal more damage than a ranged build/class, this is due to ease of access for ranged, lack of mobility for melee, and needing to stay in the thick of damage to deal damage.

    That would be true if gap closers did not exist.

    Does gap closers make you not take damage from the stomps in vHoF?
    Or keep you in range while kiting in vAS?
    Or keep you out of AoE range of most bosses?
    Or keep you from an awkward pathing cleave when your tank messes up or the game just *** itself?
    Or stop things from hitting you with melee attacks?

    No, it just closes the gap in PvP builds but aren't even that useful compared to range and not useful at all in end game PvE on a DPS especially for magicka. Even in PvP you have to be next to your target and someone can spam you from range.

    If melee range is such a HUGE problem in pve, why was BfB so meta?

    Cause it almost did a third of a toons dps.

    It also offered amazing sustain.
    Czekoludek wrote: »
    Czekoludek wrote: »
    katorga wrote: »
    Any melee build/class should deal more damage than a ranged build/class, this is due to ease of access for ranged, lack of mobility for melee, and needing to stay in the thick of damage to deal damage.

    That would be true if gap closers did not exist.

    Does gap closers make you not take damage from the stomps in vHoF?
    Or keep you in range while kiting in vAS?
    Or keep you out of AoE range of most bosses?
    Or keep you from an awkward pathing cleave when your tank messes up or the game just *** itself?
    Or stop things from hitting you with melee attacks?

    No, it just closes the gap in PvP builds but aren't even that useful compared to range and not useful at all in end game PvE on a DPS especially for magicka. Even in PvP you have to be next to your target and someone can spam you from range.

    1. Major Evasion from DW is better there then any shield.
    2. Passives from medium armor increase your speed which help you with kitting
    3. Again in PvE you have Major Evasion + in trials you usually stay close to the boss at most cases. Dungs are quite different, stamina there have much harder job to do.
    4. On boss if tank dies magicka will die probably too as everyone will stay close for olo.
    5. You have a tank for that? For weaker mobs you have vigor as magicka have shields for that.

    Stam should deal more dmg if magicka use range setup. If magicka is melee then it should deal the same amount of damage

    Yet melee magicka is a fair bit behind.

    Not really true without gloves and BfB nerfed

    But the fact is both are nerfed into the ground, one not viable because no healing, one same power as a 5 piece or monster set AT max stats, and so melee magicka is lackluster and lesser.

    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
  • Firstmep
    Firstmep
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    While the skill wasnt touched this patch, with the nerf to jabs and burning light, i wanna talk about dark flare for a second.

    This skill has been kind of forgotten for a while, and there are a few reasons why its not that popular:

    In PVE the forced cast time simply doesnt go well with how most spammables work, and frankly solar barrage does a better job at keeping up the empower buff.
    In pvp, once again, the cast time means that this skill is actually pretty hard to land aganst anyone halfway decent.
    I would like it if this skill either did more damage, or that the empower buff was replaced with something like:
    "When you use a dawns wrath ability, the cast time of this skill is reduced by 50% and its damage is increased by 10%".
    That way it could have an interesting burst combo with other dawns wrath abilities, since atm it really only works well with aurora javelin.
  • Atherakhia
    Atherakhia
    ✭✭✭
    It was the sustain, not the damage. BFB wasn't that much better than the alternatives for damage, was it?

    There should NOT be any raw DPS advantage for any class in this game, and certainly not broken down stamina vs. magicka. The advantage Stamina classes gain from a DPS standpoint come from the fact that their sustain is MUCH easier than magicka classes. The proximity to a boss that stamina have isn't that big a deal when you consider most fights everyone is stacked in a ball on the boss's butt anyway. Not to mention classes like MagDK and MagPlar are all the rage and they're largely melee ranged DPS.

  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
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    ✭✭✭
    Death Stroke and Veiled Strike need to have their range increased to 7m which is the standard melee range. Currently you can land your light and heavy attacks reliably, but then misfire because your target is between 5-7m away. It's one of the many easily fixable issues that make combat feel clunky.
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
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    Death Stroke and Veiled Strike need to have their range increased to 7m which is the standard melee range. Currently you can land your light and heavy attacks reliably, but then misfire because your target is between 5-7m away. It's one of the many easily fixable issues that make combat feel clunky.

    The standard melee range is based on 5m not 7m. This applies to all instant melee ranged attacks. Light attacks included.

    These are the known exceptions and they mainly apply to any melee attacks with cast times to help with targetting:
    1. Channeled/Cast Time melee attacks: Uppercut/Flurry/Heavy Attacks
    2. Conal instant Melee Skills: Cleave/Death Scythe/Fiery Breath
    3. DK's Elder Dragon passive: +2m to instant melee attacks, including light attacks

    So you're not really pointing out something thats busted, this is in line with their current ruleset which for the most part, seems logical. If you're saying those 2 skills need to change to 7m then what you're actually saying is ALL instant melee skills need to change to 7m which is frankly bonkers or the opposite... everything needs to be reduce to 5m which makes these cast time melee attacks unbareable to use.

    DK's have an exclusive passive for this exact situation, attack animations don't even line up with the target, you swipe at the air. So many times in pvp I'm getting hit by someone behind me from melee attacks I can't even on my screen because they're a DK at the 7m threshold.

    Allthough it's sometimes annoying, it's one of the most unique and interesting passives in the game and I'm okay with only DK having it. I think it fits their playstyle well. I wish more passives were made like this.

    The reason channeled/cast time attacks have the extra range is to help with the fact that a lot can happen during that cast time. It also goes hand in hand with charging up an attack while you go into true melee range (eg. 7m to 5m) by allowing you to get a hit in on your way to your target.

    Here are some notes for when this was touched on that I can remember of:

    Update 19:
    • Decreased the range of Two Handed, Dual Wield, One Hand and Shield, Unarmed, and Werewolf Heavy Attacks to 7 meters from 10 meters.
      • Developer Comments:
        • The range for melee Heavy Attacks now matches other melee cast time and channeled abilities, such as Uppercut and Flurry.

    Update 20:
    • Dragonknight
      • Ardent Flame
      • Lava Whip: Decreased the range of this ability and its morphs to 5 meters from 8 meters.
    • Draconic Power
      • Elder Dragon: This passive ability now also increases the range of all instant-cast melee abilities 1 meter per rank, in addition to granting Health Recovery for each Draconic Power ability slotted.
        • Developer Comment:
          • This change was made to help standardize the range of all DK melee attacks. It also matches the melee light attack range to the range of their abilities. This additional range helps distinguish melee DKs from other melee classes.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on August 2, 2020 1:00AM
    Started with PC Beta and PS4 Launch - 1000+ CP

    Stam Sorc Orc PvE Main || Stam Sorc Nord PvP Main || Stam DK Nord
    Stam Necro Orc BowBow || Stam Warden Wood Elf BowBow || Stam Blade Wood Elf BowBow


    Mag Sorc Breton || Mag Templar Breton
  • Wolf81
    Wolf81
    ✭✭✭
    kuma82 wrote: »
    Change the psijic spammable to an actual spammable attack. Don’t leave it as a clunky spammable buff for light attacks. Do the same for stam sorcs with their new stam frags.

    This very much...simply change the skill to replace your light attacks with a resource cost instead of the buff then use concept.
  • actosh
    actosh
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wolf81 wrote: »
    kuma82 wrote: »
    Change the psijic spammable to an actual spammable attack. Don’t leave it as a clunky spammable buff for light attacks. Do the same for stam sorcs with their new stam frags.

    This very much...simply change the skill to replace your light attacks with a resource cost instead of the buff then use concept.

    If u need to copy an animation for Crystal weapon go for surprise attack :blush:
  • WuChiWuGen
    WuChiWuGen
    Soul Shriven
    Server load testing id like to see.
    test 5. Take out spell or skill weaving. That would stop 1/2 of the server load. I don't think for a moment people are imputing commands that fast for hours to cancel animations.
    test 6. add aoe skill caps like we had to do in gw2 for wvw. All aoe skills should only affect 12 players and would need to be in a group.
    test 7. Max of 80 players each side on a map-server. Or whatever cap the server can handle.
    test 8. smaller large scale faction maps. A lot of new players don't want to spend 5 to ten minutes mounted between fights just to get killed in a few seconds. Time to ride across the cry maps is what 20 minutes way boring.

    With changing so much it might be time to look at eso2 :).
  • Firstmep
    Firstmep
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    WuChiWuGen wrote: »
    Server load testing id like to see.
    test 5. Take out spell or skill weaving. That would stop 1/2 of the server load. I don't think for a moment people are imputing commands that fast for hours to cancel animations.
    test 6. add aoe skill caps like we had to do in gw2 for wvw. All aoe skills should only affect 12 players and would need to be in a group.
    test 7. Max of 80 players each side on a map-server. Or whatever cap the server can handle.
    test 8. smaller large scale faction maps. A lot of new players don't want to spend 5 to ten minutes mounted between fights just to get killed in a few seconds. Time to ride across the cry maps is what 20 minutes way boring.

    With changing so much it might be time to look at eso2 :).

    I dont agree with most of these, but id be up for breaking up cyro into smaller pieces.

    Its friggin huge and mostly empty space anyway.
  • pinoot
    pinoot
    Soul Shriven
    Please don’t touch crystal blast. No need for. Good ability. Actually the only one for getting good dps on a sorc. If changed the fun of playing for me will drop significantly. Actually my whole main character is built on that ability.
  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Death Stroke and Veiled Strike need to have their range increased to 7m which is the standard melee range. Currently you can land your light and heavy attacks reliably, but then misfire because your target is between 5-7m away. It's one of the many easily fixable issues that make combat feel clunky.

    The standard melee range is based on 5m not 7m. This applies to all instant melee ranged attacks. Light attacks included.

    These are the known exceptions and they mainly apply to any melee attacks with cast times to help with targetting:
    1. Channeled/Cast Time melee attacks: Uppercut/Flurry/Heavy Attacks
    2. Conal instant Melee Skills: Cleave/Death Scythe/Fiery Breath
    3. DK's Elder Dragon passive: +2m to instant melee attacks, including light attacks

    So you're not really pointing out something thats busted, this is in line with their current ruleset which for the most part, seems logical. If you're saying those 2 skills need to change to 7m then what you're actually saying is ALL instant melee skills need to change to 7m which is frankly bonkers or the opposite... everything needs to be reduce to 5m which makes these cast time melee attacks unbareable to use.

    DK's have an exclusive passive for this exact situation, attack animations don't even line up with the target, you swipe at the air. So many times in pvp I'm getting hit by someone behind me from melee attacks I can't even on my screen because they're a DK at the 7m threshold.

    Allthough it's sometimes annoying, it's one of the most unique and interesting passives in the game and I'm okay with only DK having it. I think it fits their playstyle well. I wish more passives were made like this.

    The reason channeled/cast time attacks have the extra range is to help with the fact that a lot can happen during that cast time. It also goes hand in hand with charging up an attack while you go into true melee range (eg. 7m to 5m) by allowing you to get a hit in on your way to your target.

    Here are some notes for when this was touched on that I can remember of:

    Update 19:
    • Decreased the range of Two Handed, Dual Wield, One Hand and Shield, Unarmed, and Werewolf Heavy Attacks to 7 meters from 10 meters.
      • Developer Comments:
        • The range for melee Heavy Attacks now matches other melee cast time and channeled abilities, such as Uppercut and Flurry.

    Update 20:
    • Dragonknight
      • Ardent Flame
      • Lava Whip: Decreased the range of this ability and its morphs to 5 meters from 8 meters.
    • Draconic Power
      • Elder Dragon: This passive ability now also increases the range of all instant-cast melee abilities 1 meter per rank, in addition to granting Health Recovery for each Draconic Power ability slotted.
        • Developer Comment:
          • This change was made to help standardize the range of all DK melee attacks. It also matches the melee light attack range to the range of their abilities. This additional range helps distinguish melee DKs from other melee classes.

    Hey I appreciate your well thought out response! It appears that they didn't truly want to reduce the range to 5m due to the ease of increasing the range of whip. Maybe they could do that for Nightblades as well?

    Also according to their logic Death Stroke should have its range increased since it's not instant and has a cast time.
  • YandereGirlfriend
    YandereGirlfriend
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    In the case of Crystal Blast going the way of the Dodo... the good of the many outweighs the good of the few.
  • Vahrokh
    Vahrokh
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    ✭✭✭
    Any melee build/class should deal more damage than a ranged build/class, this is due to ease of access for ranged, lack of mobility for melee, and needing to stay in the thick of damage to deal damage.

    Sure, the day:
    • one of the BiS monster sets for ranged DPS is not a melee set.
    • healers don't have to position just out of melee and ranged DPS have to sit even closer to get their buffs.

    This is not WoW. Bosses don't create a "deadly red circle" around themselves, but rain and spread damage everywhere. Ranged DPS have to dodge and block as often as melee. Try doing even just the trash in the latest trial without blocking / dodging as ranged DPS and see how often you have to smash that ress button.

    Last but absolutely not least: melee have GREAT frontloaded damage and burst. There are ranged classes that have to build and stack DoTs etc. over time and some main skills are ground targetted. With today's dynamic fights, the bosses can walk around. Or, worse, bosses throw damage that must be dodged, good luck keeping up slow building, ground targetted damage stacks while moving around.

    Then there's the usual "BUY EXPANSION, we give you a class that will stay overpowered till next expansion", but that's marketing, not game balance.
  • ecru
    ecru
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    katorga wrote: »
    Any melee build/class should deal more damage than a ranged build/class, this is due to ease of access for ranged, lack of mobility for melee, and needing to stay in the thick of damage to deal damage.

    That would be true if gap closers did not exist.

    Gap closers don't permanently close a gap and require sacrificing an ability slot. Melee should always, always have higher single target damage/pressure than ranged, as has been the case in basically every MMO in existence. There has never been a good argument for ranged specs being better in every aspect than melee and there never will be. ESO is pretty imbalanced in this situation but the ability limit and sacrifices that have to be made to slot gap closers just exacerbates the issue. We also see outlier abilities like streak which only make the situation worse, as there is no direct counterplay to streak besides being ranged yourself, due to the fact that it's a gap closer, escape, and unblockable stun, meaning a simple gap closer is not "enough" to fully counter it.
    Gryphon Heart
    Godslayer
    Dawnbringer
  • Koubo
    Koubo
    ✭✭✭
    I wouls add that LA weaving is tedious for a melee cause of the range. Many adds/bosses have small area around them larger than 5m which make LA weaving impossible. I play both Stam&Mag templar and it's way easier with the MagickaDD.
    That's just a side note, and my opinion. ZOS dosent care anyway
  • Cinbri
    Cinbri
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Koubo wrote: »
    I wouls add that LA weaving is tedious for a melee cause of the range. Many adds/bosses have small area around them larger than 5m which make LA weaving impossible. I play both Stam&Mag templar and it's way easier with the MagickaDD.
    That's just a side note, and my opinion. ZOS dosent care anyway

    For that reason stamsorcs hate Bound Weapons, unlike Assassin Will it cant be stored as effective coz melee range. Unless it meme stam build with bow.
  • Onefrkncrzypope
    Onefrkncrzypope
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vahrokh wrote: »
    Any melee build/class should deal more damage than a ranged build/class, this is due to ease of access for ranged, lack of mobility for melee, and needing to stay in the thick of damage to deal damage.

    Sure, the day:
    • one of the BiS monster sets for ranged DPS is not a melee set.
    • healers don't have to position just out of melee and ranged DPS have to sit even closer to get their buffs.

    This is not WoW. Bosses don't create a "deadly red circle" around themselves, but rain and spread damage everywhere. Ranged DPS have to dodge and block as often as melee. Try doing even just the trash in the latest trial without blocking / dodging as ranged DPS and see how often you have to smash that ress button.

    Last but absolutely not least: melee have GREAT frontloaded damage and burst. There are ranged classes that have to build and stack DoTs etc. over time and some main skills are ground targetted. With today's dynamic fights, the bosses can walk around. Or, worse, bosses throw damage that must be dodged, good luck keeping up slow building, ground targetted damage stacks while moving around.

    Then there's the usual "BUY EXPANSION, we give you a class that will stay overpowered till next expansion", but that's marketing, not game balance.

    You telling me that ZoS mechanics are balanced? They literally have a love affair with area denial. Though only on the boss. Most mechanics dilute the farther you are away from the boss.

    Front end damage? You mean the two dot based class dks? The two melee classes with their dps stack at execute?(stamblades and mag jabplar(well atleast it will have a higher burning light uptime now lmao)) or the stamsorc(weapon skills and execute stacked)? Or the stamden?(has no damage)

    Didn't zaans get overtaken by maw? Which isn't melee. Also using zaans as an example for you only defeats your point. If zaans was the hardest hitting mag helm, it would follow melee should be stronger idea wouldn't it?
    If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling
  • Atherakhia
    Atherakhia
    ✭✭✭
    ecru wrote: »
    katorga wrote: »
    Any melee build/class should deal more damage than a ranged build/class, this is due to ease of access for ranged, lack of mobility for melee, and needing to stay in the thick of damage to deal damage.

    That would be true if gap closers did not exist.

    Gap closers don't permanently close a gap and require sacrificing an ability slot. Melee should always, always have higher single target damage/pressure than ranged, as has been the case in basically every MMO in existence. There has never been a good argument for ranged specs being better in every aspect than melee and there never will be. ESO is pretty imbalanced in this situation but the ability limit and sacrifices that have to be made to slot gap closers just exacerbates the issue. We also see outlier abilities like streak which only make the situation worse, as there is no direct counterplay to streak besides being ranged yourself, due to the fact that it's a gap closer, escape, and unblockable stun, meaning a simple gap closer is not "enough" to fully counter it.

    No they shouldn't.

    There's no reason a melee should do more damage just because they are melee ranged. As said above, the 'DPS advantage' that melee have in this game comes in the way their sustain works. It's MUCH easier to sustain on stamina in this game because the heavy is shorter and easier to fit into a rotation. As someone else said, there is no real complexity to melee combat in this game. Every class, ranged or melee, all stack in the same pile on a boss's butt anyway. The reason Mag do more damage than stamina atm is because of the various bonuses and synergies available for mag that simply outnumber those available to stam.

    There is no reason whatsoever that raw damage should benefit any one class over another.
  • Celestro
    Celestro
    ✭✭✭
    Atherakhia wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    katorga wrote: »
    Any melee build/class should deal more damage than a ranged build/class, this is due to ease of access for ranged, lack of mobility for melee, and needing to stay in the thick of damage to deal damage.

    That would be true if gap closers did not exist.

    Gap closers don't permanently close a gap and require sacrificing an ability slot. Melee should always, always have higher single target damage/pressure than ranged, as has been the case in basically every MMO in existence. There has never been a good argument for ranged specs being better in every aspect than melee and there never will be. ESO is pretty imbalanced in this situation but the ability limit and sacrifices that have to be made to slot gap closers just exacerbates the issue. We also see outlier abilities like streak which only make the situation worse, as there is no direct counterplay to streak besides being ranged yourself, due to the fact that it's a gap closer, escape, and unblockable stun, meaning a simple gap closer is not "enough" to fully counter it.

    No they shouldn't.

    There's no reason a melee should do more damage just because they are melee ranged. As said above, the 'DPS advantage' that melee have in this game comes in the way their sustain works. It's MUCH easier to sustain on stamina in this game because the heavy is shorter and easier to fit into a rotation. As someone else said, there is no real complexity to melee combat in this game. Every class, ranged or melee, all stack in the same pile on a boss's butt anyway. The reason Mag do more damage than stamina atm is because of the various bonuses and synergies available for mag that simply outnumber those available to stam.

    There is no reason whatsoever that raw damage should benefit any one class over another.
    Atherakhia wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    katorga wrote: »
    Any melee build/class should deal more damage than a ranged build/class, this is due to ease of access for ranged, lack of mobility for melee, and needing to stay in the thick of damage to deal damage.

    That would be true if gap closers did not exist.

    Gap closers don't permanently close a gap and require sacrificing an ability slot. Melee should always, always have higher single target damage/pressure than ranged, as has been the case in basically every MMO in existence. There has never been a good argument for ranged specs being better in every aspect than melee and there never will be. ESO is pretty imbalanced in this situation but the ability limit and sacrifices that have to be made to slot gap closers just exacerbates the issue. We also see outlier abilities like streak which only make the situation worse, as there is no direct counterplay to streak besides being ranged yourself, due to the fact that it's a gap closer, escape, and unblockable stun, meaning a simple gap closer is not "enough" to fully counter it.

    No they shouldn't.

    There's no reason a melee should do more damage just because they are melee ranged. As said above, the 'DPS advantage' that melee have in this game comes in the way their sustain works. It's MUCH easier to sustain on stamina in this game because the heavy is shorter and easier to fit into a rotation. As someone else said, there is no real complexity to melee combat in this game. Every class, ranged or melee, all stack in the same pile on a boss's butt anyway. The reason Mag do more damage than stamina atm is because of the various bonuses and synergies available for mag that simply outnumber those available to stam.

    There is no reason whatsoever that raw damage should benefit any one class over another.

    It shouldn't benefit one class over another, indeed. That is different from one spec over another though. People often use this argument in solely trial settings or potentially four man content but it becomes a different in solo play and PvP in general, which also makes it more reasonable and justifiable.

    Also I don't get the heavy aspect. Sustain I agree with only partially, since a stam spec's attacks are tied to their ability to dodge roll, block and sprint. Nevertheless, across the board, I still find stam to be superior in the sustain department but not seeing the heavy aspect given magicka can do so from afar rather than upclose, which hints at why they're faster (but overall still DPS losses in most cases).
  • ecru
    ecru
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Atherakhia wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    katorga wrote: »
    Any melee build/class should deal more damage than a ranged build/class, this is due to ease of access for ranged, lack of mobility for melee, and needing to stay in the thick of damage to deal damage.

    That would be true if gap closers did not exist.

    Gap closers don't permanently close a gap and require sacrificing an ability slot. Melee should always, always have higher single target damage/pressure than ranged, as has been the case in basically every MMO in existence. There has never been a good argument for ranged specs being better in every aspect than melee and there never will be. ESO is pretty imbalanced in this situation but the ability limit and sacrifices that have to be made to slot gap closers just exacerbates the issue. We also see outlier abilities like streak which only make the situation worse, as there is no direct counterplay to streak besides being ranged yourself, due to the fact that it's a gap closer, escape, and unblockable stun, meaning a simple gap closer is not "enough" to fully counter it.

    No they shouldn't.

    There's no reason a melee should do more damage just because they are melee ranged. As said above, the 'DPS advantage' that melee have in this game comes in the way their sustain works. It's MUCH easier to sustain on stamina in this game because the heavy is shorter and easier to fit into a rotation. As someone else said, there is no real complexity to melee combat in this game. Every class, ranged or melee, all stack in the same pile on a boss's butt anyway. The reason Mag do more damage than stamina atm is because of the various bonuses and synergies available for mag that simply outnumber those available to stam.

    There is no reason whatsoever that raw damage should benefit any one class over another.

    Melee assumes disconnects unless you are literally parsing on a dummy so yes, melee should do more damage. DPS being the same between every melee and ranged spec puts melee at a disadvantage. If there are no advantages to being in melee range when it comes damage output, there is no reason to play melee, and at that point you might as well just make every ability ranged. This isn't a mag vs stam argument either, as many mag specs/abilities require being in melee range to reach their full potential. This has been a trend in pretty much every game that has ever existed for a reason--because it make sense, and it's fair.
    Gryphon Heart
    Godslayer
    Dawnbringer
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