PTS Update 26 - Feedback Thread for Vampire & Werewolf

navystylz_ESO

Spectral_Force wrote: »

Baharoth77 wrote: »

Personally as the intro video to Greymoore showed I think Vampires should be extremely agile. A gap closer would be fantastic. The ult losing materialize kinda stinks. The interaction I think that would be amazing is that while in mist form you can use evicerate to teleport to your target and hit them.

Or perhaps while Blood frenzy is active your eviscerate acts as a gap closer.

Great idea, I'd be on board with this.
We can also have Frenzy grant Major Expedition (and maybe Minor Expedition as well), which would sort of act as a gap closer. Basically Charging Maneuver that costs progressively more health, useful for quick bursts of speed. That should take virtually no effort to implement.
Also would give Frenzy more flavour - you become, well, frenzied, and get a supernatural increase in speed and damage at the expense of your vitality.
Edit: elaborated on the idea in a different thread.

Vampire already have elusive mist, as well as other things that work of speed. The frenzy turning eviscerate into a gap closer is more unique. And you wouldn't invalidate the mist ability. Also frenzy making eviscerate act different would mean the the power budget for the skill isn't overloaded as it would be with expedition on frenzy.

Ulthlian

Maybe its just time to introduce major lifesteal and add it for slotting either morph of frenzy? You literally become blood crazed monster that burn your own life force to get much more of it. Ultimate will increase amount of lifesteal substantially and allow to use frenzy with it as very hard burst, almost a god-mode. Bat scion could add materialize as a button press while you transformed. Don't know about perfect scion... And another idea is to increase ultimate duration if it used with more ultimate points, stage advancement will drain less points for the second of transformation. Something like this

Darkstride

Edit: nevermind I was wrong.

ApostateHobo

There's still far too many negatives, and very few positives of going vamp in greymoor. The skills are also still pretty sad compared to the npc vamp skills. Seriously why are npcs so much cooler than us? Man this is just going to be a super disappointing chapter for vamp players outside of a few niche builds. Pretty lame considering vampires are one of the main focuses of the chapter, and this was supposed to be our big great overhaul.

Noxavian

ApostateHobo wrote: »

There's still far too many negatives, and very few positives of going vamp in greymoor. The skills are also still pretty sad compared to the npc vamp skills. Seriously why are npcs so much cooler than us? Man this is just going to be a super disappointing chapter for vamp players outside of a few niche builds. Pretty lame considering vampires are one of the main focuses of the chapter, and this was supposed to be our big great overhaul.

Let your disappointment be heard on today's stream, friend!

But yes. Imagine designing cool unique abilities for npcs and then being told "aight now do the players"

The animator/designer: "-_- what? Are we...not giving players vampire abilities?"

The guy who decides this: "nah man they get different abilities because players will love getting promised a rework and then be forced to play throw an expansion of vampires using stuff they can't! It's free money! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA"

The animator/designer: "you are absolutely right, on it boss"

navystylz_ESO

Noxavian wrote: »

ApostateHobo wrote: »

There's still far too many negatives, and very few positives of going vamp in greymoor. The skills are also still pretty sad compared to the npc vamp skills. Seriously why are npcs so much cooler than us? Man this is just going to be a super disappointing chapter for vamp players outside of a few niche builds. Pretty lame considering vampires are one of the main focuses of the chapter, and this was supposed to be our big great overhaul.

Let your disappointment be heard on today's stream, friend!

But yes. Imagine designing cool unique abilities for npcs and then being told "aight now do the players"

The animator/designer: "-_- what? Are we...not giving players vampire abilities?"

The guy who decides this: "nah man they get different abilities because players will love getting promised a rework and then be forced to play throw an expansion of vampires using stuff they can't! It's free money! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA"

The animator/designer: "you are absolutely right, on it boss"

I played through the Greymoor story because I refunded mine and figured see it while I could. This let me really see a lot of the NPC vampire stuff and yes, I got a bit jealous. Kind of makes me wish vampire was just a full class than a world skill line.

Darkstride

The vampire showcase trailer they just released makes it look really fun and interesting. Too bad most of the animations shown are feeding not combat. The trailer makes it look a lot better than it feels to play.

From the looks of it, they've pretty much committed to what we have on PTS, not that anyone was likely expecting any major changes. It's just disappointing to have them make such a big deal about the skill line overhaul, but have the skills and animations so underwhelming.

Ozymandias_13

It's sad that the vampire stage penalties weren't reversed, to decline as you go up in stage. Honestly it makes the lore of a vampire counter intuitive. By this logic there's no reason to fear a vampire because as a fact the most dangerous vampires DON'T feed.

Aside from that, it's disappointing we got an expansion dedicated to vampires with a cheap rework since I have no intention to buy it in this state. It's not even necessarily due to the quality as much as the blatant disregard for the feedback provided on it really.

peacenote

Rick11387 wrote: »

Aside from that, it's disappointing we got an expansion dedicated to vampires with a cheap rework since I have no intention to buy it in this state. It's not even necessarily due to the quality as much as the blatant disregard for the feedback provided on it really.

The thing about this (if I understand correctly) is we're not even really buying the vampire rework, though you could boycott Greymoor in protest. But vampires are base game, so even if you don't buy Greymoor your vampire stuff will be changed. What you're buying is a new zone, a new trial, and antiquities (I am unclear if antiquities will be available base game but I am guessing not).

I haven't had time to test the vampire adjustments on PTS that were dropped in .03. I'm going to try this weekend. I was happy to see things were adjusted a little but I kind of agree with your sentiment. It feels like the actual feedback (WHY people wanted changes) is being ignored. I also have this feeling that the numbers that were adjusted were maybe ALWAYS intended to be tweaked (because they seemed so dramatic initially) and they weren't really a result of the feedback but just the devs watching on PTS whether the changes were doing what they had intended. Especially since all of the OTHER feedback was ignored and Stage 4 vampire still has NO health recovery. The "I have to heal if I fall down" argument is pretty valid, imo. It's like all the vampires are extremely brittle with a gazillion ailments instead of being bolstered evilly by the blood of innocents...

wild_kmacdb16_ESO

ApostateHobo wrote: »

The skills are also still pretty sad compared to the npc vamp skills. Seriously why are npcs so much cooler than us?

This has been the trend for the last several chapters - most recent example, see the monks and swashbucklers in S Elsewyr.

Players? Nah you can keep doing the same boring things you've been doing for the past 6 years.

MopeyHat

The ability cost increases and Blood Frenzy are still the biggest pain points for me on this skill like. What if the ability cost increase was put on Blood Frenzy or one morph instead of the ramping health cost?

usmcjdking

This skill reminds me of Armlet of Mordiggan https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Armlet_of_Mordiggian

The ramping cost increases on Frenzy are okay, but IMO it should offer ramping crit as well. I understand that this isn't something that is meant to be "left on", but in the same token the costs to leaving it on aren't worth the pay off. The need for significantly more health (I found 22k to be a solid number) and your own trickle heals (using refreshing path and swallow soul as a DOT heal helped a lot) come at a huge DPS loss already for magblade in this instance.

The skill needs to be buffed. I think adding 1 CHD/1 CHC per second of activation would fit beautifully into the skill and make building around it fun and worthwhile. Perhaps go full armlet and increase HP by 15% when active? Frenzy Toggling will be a thing lol.

Vevvev

I find it funny in their video when they showed off vampiric drain they used the unmorphed version. There are going to be a lot of disappointed people after they morph that skill and it turns neon orange or green.

XomRhoK

Darkstride wrote: »

The vampire showcase trailer they just released makes it look really fun and interesting. Too bad most of the animations shown are feeding not combat. The trailer makes it look a lot better than it feels to play.

From the looks of it, they've pretty much committed to what we have on PTS, not that anyone was likely expecting any major changes. It's just disappointing to have them make such a big deal about the skill line overhaul, but have the skills and animations so underwhelming.

I agree, the trailer is done very well, vampires appearance, outfits and outfit colors, environment all feels very vampiric(except Blood Scion ) Also agree that it look a lot better than it feels to play, sadly it's the same story as with Necromancer trailer, mentioned by @Noxavian in some thread.

Vevvev wrote: »

I find it funny in their video when they showed off vampiric drain they used the unmorphed version. There are going to be a lot of disappointed people after they morph that skill and it turns neon orange or green.

Yeah, i noticed that too.
Also funny moment at 2:45, though Rich was talking about "trading health for power feels very very vampiric" the "feels very very vampiric" part coincided with moment where player's vampire with two-handed axe and bloody snot around him run to vampire NPC who stand at the swarm of bats and throws blood magic at you. And which of this feels very very vampiric?

Also they showed how they see Blood Frenzy skill, as expected, they want you to burn your Health by Blood Frenzy and after recover it with Vampiric Drain, assuming synergy between skills. Problem that Vampiric Drain very bad in it's current form and it healing power don't scale from Blood Frenzy, so it better to use any other heal in the game, and it is so obvious that it becomes scary for the level of the thought process involved in creating the skill line.

Sephyr

Just to let people know, they just said on the Live that there are no more planned updates for Vampirism. We're stuck with it.

Noxavian

DONT COMMENT ANYMORE FEEDBACK ON HERE.

They aren't going to listen to it nor do they care, this is how the vampire will launch they said on Today's stream.

navystylz_ESO

Welp ESO... it's been iffy. Highly unlikely I will ever bother trying to give this game a chance again.

Cameron991

Noxavian wrote: »

DONT COMMENT ANYMORE FEEDBACK ON HERE.

They aren't going to listen to it nor do they care, this is how the vampire will launch they said on Today's stream.

It’s so sad they didn’t listen or even acknowledge what everyone wanted...

Cameron991

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

ApostateHobo wrote: »

There's still far too many negatives, and very few positives of going vamp in greymoor. The skills are also still pretty sad compared to the npc vamp skills. Seriously why are npcs so much cooler than us? Man this is just going to be a super disappointing chapter for vamp players outside of a few niche builds. Pretty lame considering vampires are one of the main focuses of the chapter, and this was supposed to be our big great overhaul.

Let your disappointment be heard on today's stream, friend!

But yes. Imagine designing cool unique abilities for npcs and then being told "aight now do the players"

The animator/designer: "-_- what? Are we...not giving players vampire abilities?"

The guy who decides this: "nah man they get different abilities because players will love getting promised a rework and then be forced to play throw an expansion of vampires using stuff they can't! It's free money! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA"

The animator/designer: "you are absolutely right, on it boss"

I played through the Greymoor story because I refunded mine and figured see it while I could. This let me really see a lot of the NPC vampire stuff and yes, I got a bit jealous. Kind of makes me wish vampire was just a full class than a world skill line.

Right that’s what I’m saying

Spectral_Force

Noxavian wrote: »

DONT COMMENT ANYMORE FEEDBACK ON HERE.

They aren't going to listen to it nor do they care, this is how the vampire will launch they said on Today's stream.

Can confirm, this is the way it's going live. A part of me wishes they were talking about 6.0.4, but either way no further feedback will be implemented.

Sephyr

So much for Feedback threads, amirite?

Glurin

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Spectral_Force wrote: »

Baharoth77 wrote: »

Personally as the intro video to Greymoore showed I think Vampires should be extremely agile. A gap closer would be fantastic. The ult losing materialize kinda stinks. The interaction I think that would be amazing is that while in mist form you can use evicerate to teleport to your target and hit them.

Or perhaps while Blood frenzy is active your eviscerate acts as a gap closer.

Great idea, I'd be on board with this.
We can also have Frenzy grant Major Expedition (and maybe Minor Expedition as well), which would sort of act as a gap closer. Basically Charging Maneuver that costs progressively more health, useful for quick bursts of speed. That should take virtually no effort to implement.
Also would give Frenzy more flavour - you become, well, frenzied, and get a supernatural increase in speed and damage at the expense of your vitality.
Edit: elaborated on the idea in a different thread.

Vampire already have elusive mist, as well as other things that work of speed.

Can you sprint with elusive mist on PTS? I don't remember. I know you can't on live, so essentially you're just speed walking without the goofy body movement.

Spectral_Force

Glurin wrote: »

Can you sprint with elusive mist on PTS? I don't remember. I know you can't on live, so essentially you're just speed walking without the goofy body movement.

You cannot. Elusive Mist gives you about the same speed as sprinting.

BohnT2

Spectral_Force wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Can you sprint with elusive mist on PTS? I don't remember. I know you can't on live, so essentially you're just speed walking without the goofy body movement.

You cannot. Elusive Mist gives you about the same speed as sprinting.

Sprinting is a 40% speed boost while major expedition is 30%

XomRhoK

Some one ever got vampire hunters encounter?
Never encounter them myself, didn't saw them in videos and never read anything about them on forum... I just read about them in patch notes and hear again on todays stream.

Vevvev

XomRhoK wrote: »

Some one ever got vampire hunters encounter?
Never encounter them myself, didn't saw them in videos and never read anything about them on forum... I just read about them in patch notes and hear again on todays stream.

I've never encountered any. Then again I didn't spend much time outside of Western Skyrim. Maybe I'm just not traveling enough?

Vea

XomRhoK wrote: »

Some one ever got vampire hunters encounter?
Never encounter them myself, didn't saw them in videos and never read anything about them on forum... I just read about them in patch notes and hear again on todays stream.

I would like to know it too. I've spent some time testing and never had this encounter.

Paradisius

XomRhoK wrote: »

Some one ever got vampire hunters encounter?
Never encounter them myself, didn't saw them in videos and never read anything about them on forum... I just read about them in patch notes and hear again on todays stream.

I encountered it a couple times when travelling the overland, think of it like the random coldharbour portals that drop Daedra on you while questing, its a similar effect

Glurin

I encountered some hunters. They were already dead though. Killed by two werewolves who then tried to kill me.

WhyMustItBe

I feel that probably no one is reading this post buried 15 pages deep, plus they did say there will be no more vampire changes before release. That said, the new license agreement that popped up made it seem like they don't want feedback sent to them in-game so I really wasn't sure where to post this.

Anyway in case it might get a revisit down the road here are my final suggestions for improving the PTS vampire:

Make ability cost (normal and vampire) ramp up/down in parallel with the health cost of maintaining the ability and allow the spell and weapon damage bonus to ramp up indefinitely as well.

When the ability is toggled off there are no normal or vampire ability cost changes regardless of stage.

When toggled on apply bonuses and penalties based on stage on a ramping curve with the damage bonus and health cost.

The longer it is on not only the more health it costs but the more your normal abilities cost and less your vampire abilities cost, and the more spell/weapon power you receive.

This would create a fun playstyle where you build up to a brief all out vampire ability spam fest then un-toggle the ability to heal and build resources with normal ability cost.

In terms of RP it creates the perception of a mode you can toggle that represents 'giving into your vampiric nature' much like 'wolfing out on werewolf ultimate.

When you toggle it you rapidly feel your humanity slipping away as your abilities cost more and health is drained based on stage, but your damage is ramped up proportionally over time and your vampire abilities cost proportionally less, allowing you to time heals in order to push duration of the toggle to fully embrace your inner vampirism and use all vampire abilities at ridiculously high spell damage to great success with manageable risk.