Update 26 Combat Preview

Elsonso

clocksstoppe wrote: »

Was browsing to forum to see if this game is worth returning to (bored with the lockdown) and I see this. Jesus christ ZOS is more out of touch than ever. If you *** up people's VMA weapons it's not just some item nerf, it's basically a declaration that you hate your longtime veteran players.

The performance, specifically the ability desync, is the reason to not return to ESO. Not this.

LinearParadox

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Your current VMA and DSA Weapons will not be automatically upgraded to Perfected versions.

Absolutely unacceptable. Disgusting.

...And that's the nicest way I can put it.

Asmoxian

If ZOS decides to make all of the current Maelstrom Weapons obsolete, they'll see their cashflow take a huge hit when all of the current players bail for another game. I'm very glad I haven't pre-ordered the expansion. It's been nearly a year and they still haven't fixed necro abilities, the broken dungeon finder, or the horrendous lag in Cyrodiil. Have I mentioned that we all had to redownload the game and in return we got EVEN LONGER load screens as a result. I have little faith that the new vampires/werewolves will be playable considering their track record with necros. Prove me wrong, ZOS and make ESO enjoyable again. Fix server performance, make skills work when cast, and don't aggravate the players that have been making it possible for you to have a job. We play your game for enjoyment. When the enjoyment is gone, so are we.

Xorsius

Elsonso wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

Was browsing to forum to see if this game is worth returning to (bored with the lockdown) and I see this. Jesus christ ZOS is more out of touch than ever. If you *** up people's VMA weapons it's not just some item nerf, it's basically a declaration that you hate your longtime veteran players.

The performance, specifically the ability desync, is the reason to not return to ESO. Not this.

I think this would count as the cherry on top or the straw breaking the camel's back here for some people. It's that case for me at least.

I've put up with the Sorcerer changes/nerfs, especially with those to shields. I've put up with the ridiculous Iceheart nerf. I've put up with the constant server lag spikes/disconnects, and, as you said, ability desync. But I'm tired of putting up with all the ridiculous changes and stuff they've done over the years. If they go through with this vMA stuff, it'll be the last straw for me and I'll quietly leave the game without buying Greymoor, either for good or until they get it together.

doubleshotz

For those worried about having already sunk money into the new chapter, Steam refunded my pre-order. Just let them know you want your money back because the game developer is disregarding performance issues while introducing unexpected changes that negate or minimize the value of the hours you already put into the game.

I've suffered the performance issues knowing that bugs can be difficult to fix. However, ZOS put development time into light attack changes that no one asked for and were so unpopular they had to be dropped, followed by immediately putting more development time into weapons no one asked for. I've started transitioning to another MMO for now and suggest that if you're angry you do the same until ZOS starts putting dev time where everyone actually wants it: bug and performance fixes.

Vote with your dollars.

jaster98

I felt that due to the extreme attention this thread has generated, I should put in my own two cents. I like vMA, it is fun content, I have dozens if not hundreds of sub 30-minute full vit clears under my belt. I am excited for this change as it gives purpose to my niche skillset.

P.S: selling vma clears, 25$ per weapon. /s

MurderologistOnPSN

They don’t care about us. You all think you leaving will effect them? They are actually doing just fine believe it or not. That doesn’t mean I agree with these changes. We are forced to put up with a game that’s completely unstable and as we speak right now PVP is utterly unplayable. Their are bigger issues than them not rightfully awarding people our perfected weapons they once took from us and then are adding back. I want to pvp right now In CYRODIIL and that’s literally impossible to do and enjoy it.

Lorkhan

Brian , i miss wrobel

Eleandor

jaster98 wrote: »

I felt that due to the extreme attention this thread has generated, I should put in my own two cents. I like vMA, it is fun content, I have dozens if not hundreds of sub 30-minute full vit clears under my belt. I am excited for this change as it gives purpose to my niche skillset.

P.S: selling vma clears, 25$ per weapon. /s

Jaster ftw. Finally someone with some business sense.

Darkenarlol

TL;DR: just don't do it...it is a really bad decision that leaves us, your players, frustrated and unhappy

now the text wall (i thought it would be 3 times shorter but it turned out this way)

just to mention
- i had all weapons i need in right traits way before transmutation was implemented
- i've got my first desired weapon after ~200 runs
- all my played characters are multiple flawless conquerors
- i've stopped counting my runs after 1k and it was about 2 years ago
- i'm still testing new builds in vma in terms of survive and self sustain
- i actually love vma and it is one of my most beloved activities in ESO

i'm not even taking the "toxic elitist" position asking why everyone
gonna have my vet items from normal mode that i usually use to
level up naked level 3 character with basic white weapon to ~lv 10

no...i'm ok with the fact that more people will have access to good gear
it is fine and may bring some players that are doubting in their performance
to try serious endgame content

i'm ok that you sell chapters with huge discounts just after a month after release
while i'm preordering them at full price - it is my choise

the thing that really make me sad is that you're throwing away literally thousands
of hours i've spent on my characters and neglecting all my effrorts
it has nothing in common with balance changes...it is just a spit in the face

like c'mon...goverment in my country allready able to take away from me
whatever i'm achieving in real life and it is stressfull enough

do i really have to experience same things in the game environment?
devaluing of my personal efforts, showing my inability to keep what i've earned thru hard
and time consuming activities, stress and uncertainty about tomorrow...
is that what are you selling to me for my money?

can i redo all that grind again? maybe...step by step
but do you really think that i'm gonna say a single nice word
about what you've done ever after that?

one of the best things ESO offers to it's customers is stability
like i'm still running my 4 year old julianos on one of my alts which is great
one of the reasons why i love your game is because it is really altoholic friendly

if i wanted to play gear chase game where you farm 6 months your gear
just to find it outdated in next two weeks with a new round of half year regrind incoming
then probably i didn't have to abandon wow more that 6 years ago

please don't make your players sad...and be safe

Lime923

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Your current VMA and DSA Weapons will not be automatically upgraded to Perfected versions.

coletas

Another patch, another learn to play again saying that is "for balancing pvp". Call It SvL. Scammed vs Lag. Why somebody could want a vma weapon if you cant swap It when you want? And what new Bugs are you going to introduce? That is the most important part on combat (in cyro you know you can be on combat even under a rock during hours) and not weapons, sets, or changes like a cooldown that would make perfomance better than proc sets lol to be constructive... introduce a good analyst in the team, put a date and acomplish It. Thats the only change most people wants to see.

jecks33

24 pages of silence.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno your community deserves some clarification

Etrella

I'm surprised, not a single mod has come to delete our posts. This will probably be the first.

Android_Archer

doubleshotz wrote: »

For those worried about having already sunk money into the new chapter, Steam refunded my pre-order. Just let them know you want your money back because the game developer is disregarding performance issues while introducing unexpected changes that negate or minimize the value of the hours you already put into the game.

I've suffered the performance issues knowing that bugs can be difficult to fix. However, ZOS put development time into light attack changes that no one asked for and were so unpopular they had to be dropped, followed by immediately putting more development time into weapons no one asked for. I've started transitioning to another MMO for now and suggest that if you're angry you do the same until ZOS starts putting dev time where everyone actually wants it: bug and performance fixes.

Vote with your dollars.

That's how you get any business to listen. Stop making them money. Get your Greymoor refunds, leave the game and warn everyone you know to stay away and not waste their time or money on it either. There are new MMOs coming out all the time. ESO is 5 years old on console (6 years old on PC).

The developers know ESO is in its death throws and they're doing whatever they can to squeeze a little more money out of it, like trying to keep people grinding with BS changes to the vMA and vDSA weapons.

MLGProPlayer

jecks33 wrote: »

24 pages of silence.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno your community deserves some clarification

This is why they post controversial patches on Fridays. They hope people will calm down over the weekend, and they have an excuse for why they didn't respond to any of the feedback.

xaraan

A player running vMA today deserves the same reward for a player running vMA two months from now.

If you are going to change existing content to give different/better rewards, then existing rewards should be changed along with it.

Dracane

jecks33 wrote: »

24 pages of silence.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno your community deserves some clarification

They usually do not reply on weekends. (Saturday and Sunday) So this is normal. Brian is not working every day, you know?

MLGProPlayer

ESO subreddit mods are aggressively deleting all posts related to this. Bunch of shills.

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/g3nzj5/any_time_zenimax_makes_a_dumb_change/

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/g3o8c0/perfected_zos_2_items_deals_833_additional_damage/

dkDolphino

Just thinking about the phrase "Veteran Maelstrom Arena" makes me feel ill, for Todd's sake I already did my time in that hellhole, I don't want to do it again

Major_Lag

Etrella wrote: »

I'm surprised, not a single mod has come to delete our posts. This will probably be the first.

Not true, because you don't see what was already deleted.

Hilariously, a mod blanked my entire post on page 10, which was just a quote of Brian's comment with the "they see me trollin' they hatin'" meme underneath. Would have made more sense to delete the post, since now it's just completely empty

MattT1988

Etrella wrote: »

I'm surprised, not a single mod has come to delete our posts. This will probably be the first.

A couple of mine have been deleted already. They are watching but are too afraid to address the issue.

Tommy_The_Gun

jecks33 wrote: »

24 pages of silence.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno your community deserves some clarification

Yep. ZOS, You said that you listen to feedback now... You did it once recently, but a lot of people still think that you are not listening to us.... so prove us wrong.

Env_t

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Your current VMA and DSA Weapons will not be automatically upgraded to Perfected versions.

acceptable and right decigion! good way
people must replay content and its ok
i like it
its not even hard and considering transmute system - very fast to earn all weapons you need

Crobazrian

I will be holding off purchasing Greymoor to see if you guys go through with this ridiculous vMA vDSA weapons change. What a slap in the face to your loyal players. I have given you guys thousands of hard earned dollars and all you do is favor the new players. If you guys stay on this trajectory all you will have will be new players. Every guild I’m in, and I’m in big ones, is full of outraged and incredulous people. I’m already looking at other games to replace ESO with. I really hope somebody from ESO is reading all these comments, I haven’t found a single positive comment about the weapons change.

kebabislava

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Your current VMA and DSA Weapons will not be automatically upgraded to Perfected versions.

Please, no

Hemaka

HeatherFufu wrote: »

...I haven’t found a single positive comment about the weapons change.

There's one just above yours [snip]

And on topic: not automatically upgrading existing weapons (or if it's not possible [snip] - letting us trade them piece for piece with a vMA merchant) is in my opinion a big slap in the face for your players.

Not only this game runs worse with every patch, not only you're not fixing things you broke few months ago (desync - you're still "investigating" it aren't you?), not only you're commiting resources into changes no one asked for (light attacks pts), but you're trying to force us to replay 4years old content that quite a lot of people despise?

You know, you can't rely on new player's influx every other month just to keep your game going. Cause when new player makes it to the endgame - which doesn't take too long - he/she will start to notice your [snip] ideas presented to us every few months. And guess what? I think he/she might as well leave to the greener fields without commiting too much time & money like most of us writing here did for last few years.

It's the old players who keep this game going and we deserve better than this.

[edited for baiting and bashing]

code65536

I want to try to cut through the noise a little and look at things from the developers' perspective. Look at where the they are coming from and why they see non-upgrade as the right thing to do. And try to explain why that perspective is so sharply at odds with how players see things.

Floating around various Discords are screenshots of a conversation that @ZOS_RichLambert had with a player who messaged him, in which Rich lays out ZOS's point of view.

How the developers see things...

The developers see Perfected arena weapons as something new. They've changed the sourcing of existing weapons to make them more accessible. And they've added new weapons to the game. And, since these are new things that they're introducing to the game, it makes sense that people have to acquire them from scratch. When a motif is added to a dungeon, you have to re-run that dungeon to get it and aren't retroactively granted copies from previous clears of that dungeon, so why should arena weapons be different?

How the players see things...

Most players don't see the weapons as new. Instead, they see it as a buff to the veteran reward weapons. And that the new thing isn't the Perfected weapon. Instead, the new things are the imperfect weapons that's being added to normal. From the players' perspective, rewards are being added to something that previously had no rewards (normal). It's the normal reward that are new, and existing rewards that are being buffed.

So what exactly is "new" here?

Both perspectives make sense. It all hinges on the question of, What new is being added here? Do we go with the developers' claim that Perfected is new, because Perfected Dragonstar/Maelstrom weapons had never existed before? Or do we go with the players' claim that Perfected is just a buff of existing veteran rewards and that non-Perfected is new, since normal had never granted weapons before?*

If people agree that Perfected weapons are "new", then the developers' perspective makes complete sense. If people agree that Perfected weapons are just a buff of existing weapons and that non-Perfected weapons are the truly "new" thing, then the developers' perspective falls apart.

Historical perspective: Master's weapons in 2016

I think the best analogue would be DSA's Master's weapons. In 2016, the Master's weapons that you'd get from DSA were VR14, back when the max player level was VR16. In the latter half of 2016, they introduced max-level Master's weapons. Everyone's existing VR14 weapons remained unchanged. If you wanted the new max-level Master's weapons, you had to run vDSA all over again and reacquire them all from scratch. And nobody batted an eye at this. Nobody complained about having to reacquire their weapons.

And I imagine the folks at ZOS are thinking right now, "This is no different than adding max-level Master's weapons in 2016, why the hell are players going crazy over this?!"

But there is one very important difference here: The addition of max-level Master's weapons coincided with the rescaling of Dragonstar Arena. DSA was no longer VR14 content, it was now max-level content, with a significant difficulty buff. You could no longer blow through vDSA with no support characters--you had to actually bring a tank and a healer. The incoming damage was increased significantly. The enemy health levels were buffed substantially. Portals granted damage immunity and you could no longer kill enemies before they even appeared out of the portal. The new max-level vDSA was a proper, difficult challenge.

It may have been the same content, but it was a new experience.

And I think the argument here for why the developers missed the mark is that their supposedly "new" arena gear does not require new experiences.

When you get new gear, it's associated with new content. There are, for example, new dungeon sets... that require running a new dungeon. Or, in the example that I just gave above, a new experience could be old content that had gotten a facelift.

Why the players are right

The main problem with the developers' perspective is that the means of acquisition is identical. It's hard to convince a player that something is "new" when the conditions of that reward are identical. Unlike the developers, players don't see this as Perfected vs. Imperfect. They see it as Veteran-difficulty-reward vs. Normal-difficulty-reward. ZOS thinks they added a new reward. Players think that ZOS is buffing an existing reward, but not buffing it retroactively.

As I've said in an earlier post, if ZOS changes the means of acquisition--either by buffing vMA or adding additional requirements (e.g., requiring a single-session clear; after all, Perfected Asylum weapons are rewarded not for simple vAS clears, but for vAS +2 clears, though that's looking increasingly like an aberrant outlier)--then what they suggest probably wouldn't have raised players' hackles nearly as much. But not when the requirements for acquisition are identical.

Point of comparison: Gear cap increases

As I had already mentioned with the 2016 Master's weapon buff, the closest analogue to ZOS's line of thinking are gear cap increases. As expected in ESO (and any other MMO), if the gear cap increases, existing gear doesn't get upgraded. You have to reacquire it.

And this fits with what @ZOS_RichLambert had been arguing: When gear cap increases, existing gear doesn't get nerfed. It just doesn't get the extra power that's being added. (Though to argue that existing gear doesn't lose power in absolute terms is a disingenuous argument despite being technically correct, because it's losing power in relative terms, and that's what matters in the long run.)

As I had already argued earlier, the main problem with comparing Perfected weapons to gear cap increases is that gear cap increases are associated with difficulty rescaling. When ESO introduced VR15/16 gear, it required that we defeat VR15/16 enemies that were tougher than older VR14 enemies. When DSA weapons were upgraded from VR14 to CP160, it required beating a DSA that had received a substantial buff to difficulty.

The second problem with comparing Perfected weapons to gear cap increases is that gear cap increases are extremely unpopular. Time and again, when players have discussed the potential of gear cap increases, the response has been overwhelmingly negative. People really don't like the idea of having to arbitrarily re-earn things.

So even if you could compare Perfected weapons to a gear cap increase (despite the lack of any "new experiences"), it's still not a very flattering comparison because gear cap increases are so widely reviled.

Point of comparison: Adding new drops to a dungeon

As I alluded to earlier, if extra rewards get added to a dungeon after its release--e.g., motifs--people don't clamor for making this rewards retroactive for previous clears. So... how's this different?

It's different because in the case of motifs, you go from nothing-is-dropping to something-is-dropping. With arena weapons, you already have a reward dropping in vet. It's not a new reward--it's a different reward. Or, as the players see it, it's the same reward with buffs. If we continue with this comparison, it's actually the normal modes that are seeing something new that hadn't existed before. Which fits in with the general player perspective that the vet rewards are buffed and that the actual new rewards are the normal weapons.

So... what's the point of this post?

I guess my target audience for this post is @ZOS_RichLambert and other devs, and my hope is that I'm able to convey the players' perspective, why it differs from the developers' perspective and why, if you are to pick between the two, the players' perspective makes more sense and why the developers' perspective, while reasonable, does not pass the muster.

I want this to be about convincing the devs to see things as we see them, without the anger and outrage that we see in 90% of the other posts here.

One last thing: Why this has touched a nerve with players

While this post is mostly to lay out why I think the developer perspective misses the mark, I also want to touch on why there's been so much anger in this thread (though this is irrelevant to the point that I want to make).

The first is the RNG of acquiring weapons. While it's possible to get extremely lucky (one of my alt accounts got an infused Inferno on its first and only run of vMA), there are just as many stories about people who aren't lucky. I know someone who has just two inferno staves, and at least 60 ice staves (they stopped keeping track after 60). I know people who have farmed vMA literally hundreds of times to get their gear. Too many people have been burned by the RNG for there to be anything other than anger at the suggestion that they would have to endure that all over again.

I've run vMA somewhere between 200 and 300 times, and I kinda enjoy it, but I'm able to enjoy it only because I already have my weapons and don't have this question of gear drops hanging over me when I run it. The very idea of having to battle the potentially brutal drop roulette all over again really saps the fun out of it, because the arena should be about battling the enemies in the arena, not the RNG drops, but that RNG is what often dominates the experience. I think that the RNG loot has made these weapons more precious to players than the devs had intended, hence the strong reactions.

The second is the extremely strong player perception of disrespect coming from ZOS. Update 25 has been terrible. Performance has never been this bad, trials groups are cancelling runs or rescheduling them for weird hours, and I haven't seen morale this low in years. Yet there's been virtually no communication from ZOS about this important matter. All we have are vague reassurances about ongoing investigations. For many people, this arena weapon issue is yet another sign of disrespect coming from a company that had already expended the last of their goodwill with these game-breaking issues in Update 25.

Please do the right thing, Rich.




* Nitpicker's corner: Yes, I know that's not quite true, since back when DSA was still VR14 content, normal DSA dropped VR13 Master's weapons.

Monopolax

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Your current VMA and DSA Weapons will not be automatically upgraded to Perfected versions.

Or how to kill all the excitment for the whole new Chapter in just one sentence. For many players (and me) now Greymoor means "you have to do another 50+ runs of vMA to own again the bis weapons you already have now" - sounds boring and feels pointless. Thanks, I hav'nt read one single line of the patch-note yet and I'm already bitter.

By the way, the "2018 and 2020 car" argument I saw a few pages ago do not apply here. First, an MMO weapon is not a car - it does'nt get depreciated by itself through the years, but by the addition of complete new stuff acquired in different place that overtake it. So the mention of "2018 vs 2020" is tricky - should not apply for a MMO item.

We talk here about current BIS weapon that are obtained via a vMA clear. Perfected weapon will be the new BIS weapon, obtained via the same vMA clear. But the current will not be BIS anymore. So indeed, there is now a 2020 version of it, and a 2020-bis introduced after. By doing so you're introducing here a self-depreciation system, where the same item is overtaken by himslef. Completely new approach.

So to summerize : you are not proposing us a new 2020 cars. But you're turning our 2020 cars into a 2018 car in order to sell us your "new" 2020 car. Don't be surprised if everybody feels cheated and don't want to buy it.

The worst is that I liked all that has been previewed before this tiny detail...

Lazarus_Rising

Thats highly unfair... i'm shocked.... Everyone gets handed Maelstrom Weapons now and all the people who fought for it get punished... wth