The skill gap is too great due to twitch-based reflex type combat like weaving and animation cancel.

colossalvoids

No, the skill gap is fine.

We need a "lol" button back.

Wihuri

No, the skill gap is fine.

ZeroXFF wrote: »

the people who are half as good as you are paying customers too, so it's good business strategy to make sure they feel like they can achieve the goals they set for themselves

So they should be good players instantly just because they pay money?

relentless_turnip

No, the skill gap is fine.

@ZeroXFF

You want to what!?
Enable players to do a skill every 0.5 secs!? how does this help?
If they did this and had light attacks on the same GCD no one would light attack...
You may as well just have skills and no basic attacks and meanwhile the APM is the same.
instead of LA > Skill you would just hit your spammable between each cast or double press it if you were at your spammable in your rotation.

The impact would be in PVE high APM doing at least 33% more DPS than they do right now and low APM players still unable to press buttons fast enough to keep up. Have you even considered the impact on PVP? players would rather be deleted or run 2 tank sets as they no longer need to build for damage.

It buff's damage, but without addressing the skill gap which has been defined quite agreeably as a persons ability to press buttons faster and with more efficiency(the right buttons).

What is this logic anyway you feel more comfortable pressing the keys twice rather than pressing the mouse button followed by a key. If that is the case just change your key bindings

Reducing the damage of light attacks and buffing skills would be a better way to lower the effectiveness of high APM. Apologies, but your idea is ludicrous!

ZeroXFF

Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressed

Wihuri wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

the people who are half as good as you are paying customers too, so it's good business strategy to make sure they feel like they can achieve the goals they set for themselves

So they should be good players instantly just because they pay money?

Is it even possible to be more dishonest than this? I'm saying they should be half as good, not 1/3 as good.

ZeroXFF

Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressed

relentless_turnip wrote: »

@ZeroXFF

You want to what!?
Enable players to do a skill every 0.5 secs!? how does this help?
If they did this and had light attacks on the same GCD no one would light attack...
You may as well just have skills and no basic attacks and meanwhile the APM is the same.
instead of LA > Skill you would just hit your spammable between each cast or double press it if you were at your spammable in your rotation.

The impact would be in PVE high APM doing at least 33% more DPS than they do right now and low APM players still unable to press buttons fast enough to keep up. Have you even considered the impact on PVP? players would rather be deleted or run 2 tank sets as they no longer need to build for damage.

It buff's damage, but without addressing the skill gap which has been defined quite agreeably as a persons ability to press buttons faster and with more efficiency(the right buttons).

What is this logic anyway you feel more comfortable pressing the keys twice rather than pressing the mouse button followed by a key. If that is the case just change your key bindings

Reducing the damage of light attacks and buffing skills would be a better way to lower the effectiveness of high APM. Apologies, but your idea is ludicrous!

Read the whole chain of replies. I'm not actually advocating for it, I want every key press to be reflective of a decision I make. LA weaving isn't doing that, it just adds a pointless keypress, so you don't really have 2 APS with the current system, you have 1 APS, but always with a complicated keybind. I'd prefer to have 1 APS with normal keybinds, but I'm ok going for 2 APS as a compromise for people who claim that removing LA weaving would make the game slow.

If you think that's a bad idea, ok, let's not do that, but then don't try to sell LA weaving with the same argument.

TagSaiku

No, the skill gap is fine.

I'd rather own up to being bad than have the game remove those mechanics because I'm too lazy to learn them myself.

holden_caulfield

No, the skill gap is fine.

Every mmorpg has something that spli the community between who Can do and who cant.

When wow was still wow less than 10% ofthe userbase had set foot in naxxramas let alone clear it.

We cant be all the strongest player in the game.

holden_caulfield

No, the skill gap is fine.

I forgot to add that now i am 47. This young kids eat me alive in pvp

Lysette

i guess, most do not even care - let the 5% have their fun with higher dps and do harder content - for most it is good enough to just get through normal content somewhat - somewhat is good enough, having fun is more important than practicing repetitive actions IMO.

holden_caulfield

No, the skill gap is fine.

And I want to add: be creative. Most players read the same guide and they think that that is the best u Can play.
And ofc most of them suck with those cookie cutters set-up.

You dont have the same reaction time or knowledge of the game of alcast just to name one. Why try to play like him First walk then run

relentless_turnip

No, the skill gap is fine.

ZeroXFF wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

@ZeroXFF

You want to what!?
Enable players to do a skill every 0.5 secs!? how does this help?
If they did this and had light attacks on the same GCD no one would light attack...
You may as well just have skills and no basic attacks and meanwhile the APM is the same.
instead of LA > Skill you would just hit your spammable between each cast or double press it if you were at your spammable in your rotation.

The impact would be in PVE high APM doing at least 33% more DPS than they do right now and low APM players still unable to press buttons fast enough to keep up. Have you even considered the impact on PVP? players would rather be deleted or run 2 tank sets as they no longer need to build for damage.

It buff's damage, but without addressing the skill gap which has been defined quite agreeably as a persons ability to press buttons faster and with more efficiency(the right buttons).

What is this logic anyway you feel more comfortable pressing the keys twice rather than pressing the mouse button followed by a key. If that is the case just change your key bindings

Reducing the damage of light attacks and buffing skills would be a better way to lower the effectiveness of high APM. Apologies, but your idea is ludicrous!

Read the whole chain of replies. I'm not actually advocating for it, I want every key press to be reflective of a decision I make. LA weaving isn't doing that, it just adds a pointless keypress, so you don't really have 2 APS with the current system, you have 1 APS, but always with a complicated keybind. I'd prefer to have 1 APS with normal keybinds, but I'm ok going for 2 APS as a compromise for people who claim that removing LA weaving would make the game slow.

If you think that's a bad idea, ok, let's not do that, but then don't try to sell LA weaving with the same argument.

I don't see how halving the GCD is any better than light attack weaving is my argument.
I'm not selling it, I am merely saying this idea is in fact worse than light attack weaving.
It would increase all damage and shift the meta massively. Also what would be the purpose of a light attack after this change?

I also don't feel that pressing more than one button effects the decision process nor the goal of pressing buttons. Combinations of actions are in a lot of games and using them in the correct order, at the correct moment yields the best result. I mainly PVP so for me the button presses are purposeful combo's. Rotations are the same they are just sustained. Even if you removed light attacks to do well in any content you will have to practice and improve at what ever combination of buttons the meta dictates or leans towards.

There is no escaping the practice it takes to "git gud", what ZOS can do is improve the benefit of doing actions slowly or decrease the benefit of doing them fast.

There has to be a skill gap or for a large majority of players in any game there is no reward in progressing. I agree there is nothing wrong with closing that gap, but making light attacks useless isn't the answer.

ZeroXFF

Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressed

relentless_turnip wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

@ZeroXFF

You want to what!?
Enable players to do a skill every 0.5 secs!? how does this help?
If they did this and had light attacks on the same GCD no one would light attack...
You may as well just have skills and no basic attacks and meanwhile the APM is the same.
instead of LA > Skill you would just hit your spammable between each cast or double press it if you were at your spammable in your rotation.

The impact would be in PVE high APM doing at least 33% more DPS than they do right now and low APM players still unable to press buttons fast enough to keep up. Have you even considered the impact on PVP? players would rather be deleted or run 2 tank sets as they no longer need to build for damage.

It buff's damage, but without addressing the skill gap which has been defined quite agreeably as a persons ability to press buttons faster and with more efficiency(the right buttons).

What is this logic anyway you feel more comfortable pressing the keys twice rather than pressing the mouse button followed by a key. If that is the case just change your key bindings

Reducing the damage of light attacks and buffing skills would be a better way to lower the effectiveness of high APM. Apologies, but your idea is ludicrous!

Read the whole chain of replies. I'm not actually advocating for it, I want every key press to be reflective of a decision I make. LA weaving isn't doing that, it just adds a pointless keypress, so you don't really have 2 APS with the current system, you have 1 APS, but always with a complicated keybind. I'd prefer to have 1 APS with normal keybinds, but I'm ok going for 2 APS as a compromise for people who claim that removing LA weaving would make the game slow.

If you think that's a bad idea, ok, let's not do that, but then don't try to sell LA weaving with the same argument.

I don't see how halving the GCD is any better than light attack weaving is my argument.
I'm not selling it, I am merely saying this idea is in fact worse than light attack weaving.
It would increase all damage and shift the meta massively. Also what would be the purpose of a light attack after this change?

I also don't feel that pressing more than one button effects the decision process nor the goal of pressing buttons. Combinations of actions are in a lot of games and using them in the correct order, at the correct moment yields the best result. I mainly PVP so for me the button presses are purposeful combo's. Rotations are the same they are just sustained. Even if you removed light attacks to do well in any content you will have to practice and improve at what ever combination of buttons the meta dictates or leans towards.

There is no escaping the practice it takes to "git gud", what ZOS can do is improve the benefit of doing actions slowly or decrease the benefit of doing them fast.

There has to be a skill gap or for a large majority of players in any game there is no reward in progressing. I agree there is nothing wrong with closing that gap, but making light attacks useless isn't the answer.

In no other game (or at least not in any good one) does the combination always involve the same button in the exact same order for literally every single action. Yes, there are rotations, and there are combos, but they are chosen based on situation, involving a player decision, not as a matter of "press this button every second or you suck at this game". Only ESO has such a stupid mechanic. LA weaving doesn't add depth to the game, only unnecessarily complicates the controls.

As for the role of LA weaving under this system, if they don't go through with the changes currently on PTS, a spammable that is free and generates ultimate will find a place in a lot of builds. With this change you'd only be forced to press it at most once every 5 seconds in regular builds (for the enchant proc with infused weapon, 8 with any other trait due to the ulti buff lasting 8s). This by the way creates build diversity, something that is also very much desired by a lot of people. This adds a lot of depth to the game that once understood by new players will result in an "aha" moment, not an "is this a bug?" or an "I should make a macro for this" moment the way LA weaving does when it's explained.

Rikumaru

No, the skill gap is fine.

BlueRaven wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I don’t under stand why people think that animation canceling was intended. Do they think the people designing the combat animations did not read their memos about combat speed? Do they think the game director intended janky looking combat? Like intentionally making it look like a mistake, by design?



It was obviously not intended just by how stupid it looks. If it was intended, it would look way more polished.

Sometimes I wish the designers stuck to their guns and kept mods that tracked dps out of the game. You can see how much poison it has inflicted into the player base. Having all the players not worry about how much dps they do compared to others would have maintained a much healthier attitude in the player base.

Overwatch has animation canceling which works identical to ESO.

Is that an mmo? Well then, I would counter that example with basically every AAA game ever created.

But is nice to see that "The Pee Wee Herman crashing into a curb school of Visual Design" has at least one graduate.

What does being an mmo have to do with anything? The point is animation canceling is not a glitch and has existed in many online PvP games. It's not a new concept, and certainly not cheating/exploiting. The fact that you're so bent out of shape on a known mechanic makes you look no less than a newb.

I think you should actually spend more time learning how to play instead of making dumb sarcastic comments on the forums. You just make yourself look more of a fool

"What does being an mmo have to do with anything?"

I am sorry, are you on the wrong forums? Do you not know the game we are talking about?

Are we now talking about all video games in general or other games comparable with ESO? If we are talking about MMO-RPGs only then what does Overwatch have anything to do with this conversation? If we are talking about all video games then I would point out that all of the Total War games do not have animation canceling, and there are a ton of those.

And I think maybe you should spend time talking about the subject at hand then just making flippant remarks.

Overwatch has as much to do with combat in ESO as does Fornite. They are two completely different animals.

And unless you personally had a hand in designing ESO, then I was not making a sarcastic remark about you. Rather the person who designed Overwatch being from that school.

BDO has animation cancelling in it. They even tell you how to cancel with videos in game for it. So yeah other MMOs do have animation cancelling.

ScardyFox

No, the skill gap is fine.

And I am saying this as a person well past his dexterous prime.

Kalante

No, the skill gap is fine.

People that want this game to be like ffiiv or like any other generic combat with skill cool downs are always such a meme. ESO was made for fast paced combat get over it.

Tigerseye

Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressed

tmbrinks wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

justaquickword wrote: »

This is starting to remind me of the arguments over Brexit...

In reminds me of it too, but in the sense that no one wants to compromise. It's either all the way in or all the way out. And that's probably why this is still an unresolved problem nearly a half decade later.

Which is why I'm sympathetic to the suggestions of the OP.

If they put in an optional auto attack, this would give players who can't or won't weave a competitive option to help "narrow the skill gap" (which was supposedly the goal of these awful changes). Players who enjoy manual weaving and want to keep doing it may still do so.

What's wrong with that?

Is the "automated" attack going to do less damage than a normal LA? Otherwise who choose the dps loss?

LA are like 15% of dps (unless you're using a skill to specifically boost them, like Ele Weapon), that 15% doesn't account for the vast difference between "end-game" and "mid-tier"

Nerf LA damage by 30%. Boost skill damage by like 3%. Top tier people will pull the same DPS. mid-tier will gain dps. Sadly the LA spammers will lose dps.

Not sure what happened to my first response to you (it just vanished): but players who don't light attack weave would be the ones who would choose this automated attack. Because even if it would ultimately be less damage than players who manually did it - at least this way it wouldn't shut them out completely from the benefits of weaving light attacks into their rotations. So it would narrow the gap between players who can weave and those who can't, which if I read it correctly is the supposed goal.

To me that's a much better solution then implementing these terrible changes on the PTS.

Yeah, that has been happening a lot of the forums lately. Whether it's due to overloaded servers, or stealth moderation, I don't know.

If the auto attack did like 50% of the dps of somebody who was a 0.7 LA/sec weaver, fine. But much more than that and it'll be too strong.

No, auto-attack light attacks would have to be equal, in terms of pure DPS, as manually applied light attacks.

In GW2, where auto-attack is optional (it can be disabled), there is no (official) DPS advantage to disabling it, as far as I know.

However, I did hear a player claim, there, that you could increase DPS by disabling it, if you knew how to weave.

Presumably, as your light attacks might be even better timed, in relation to your skills, than the auto-attack ones?

However, there is no DPS advantage to each individual, non auto-attack light attack and that is the way it should be.

Juhasow

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.

I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.

IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.

It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?

I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.

Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.

Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.

The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.

Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.

Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).



Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".

So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.

Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.

They're different things.

Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?

LA weaving is a subset of AC.

And if you say "at most", it's not cherry-picking when I show you a contrary example, regardless of the class I pick. And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't use LAs at all if I couldn't AC them, but LAs generally do less damage than a single skill, so the % difference would remain the same or be even greater if I started replacing skills with non-cancellable LAs.

I DON'T CONSIDER LA WEAVING TO BE ANIMATION CANCELING. The 5% I give is from ACTUAL ANIMATION CANCELING!!!

besides get rid of AC and you won't even be able to block if you're in the middle of a channel when an add or boss decides to attack you. It was literally kill the reactive combat in the game.

Honestly, if you want auto attacks with just casting skills go play one of the other dozens of MMOs that are built that way. You have a choice. There's not much choice for those of us who like this game for what it is because of how the combat currently is.

Blocking or dodging doesn't increase your DPS on a dummy. Putting LAs on the GCD wouldn't affect it at all.

P.S. If you are going to come into the discussion with an alternative definition of certain terms, you should write out the definition of those terms. People can't read your mind about what you "consider" to be those terms. Because "animation cancelling" implies (drum roll) cancelling an animation, and that's exactly what happens when doing LA weaving. By not doing it your contribution to the thread instantly becomes a waste of screen space.

All my fault for not being explicitly clear! I hope you can see that you're doing the same thing!

2 button presses a second is already slow. You want 1. Got it. No further explanation needed. If I want a turn-based game, I'll go play Civ VI. I like dynamic, reactive, engaging combat from something that requires some skill and practice to master.

That said, this is like beating a dead horse. It's in the game, the devs have said it's intended. They have given it their blessing. They do it themselves (albeit poorly) when they stream the game. When about 3 out of 4 people like it the way it is based on this (admittingly unscientific) poll, I don't forsee changes coming to this particular mechanic.

Now, the changes they're proposing for the PTS are going to make it EVEN MORE essential to LA weave to sustain, particularly for low-tier and mid-tier players (and healers and tanks), so better start practicing on that dummy, thankfully I already did so, to try and be the best possible healer that I could be!

Because if you enjoy something, and you want to be good at it... you actually practice it and learn how to do a skill!!!

I already explicitly said that I don't care about how many button presses there are in a second. I just don't want to have to press 2 buttons every time I activate a skill. I don't have a problem with GCD being lowered to 0.5s to give you your much desired 2 button presses per second, but I'd much prefer pressing different buttons, not always the same one.

You don't even realize what would happen if abilities GCD would be lowered to 0,5 sec.

Who's against "fast paced" combat now?

Oh so You also don't realize what fast paced combat means in ESO. Nice.

And when I said You don't realize what would happen after lowering GCD to 0,5 sec I wasn't talking only about how speed of the combat would change.

I do know what "fast paced combat" means, and I know that having to click before using a skill isn't it, because the rate at which you have to make decisions doesn't change. LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action.

This is the compromise solution for those who reject putting LAs on the GCD with the excuse "1 button a second is slow". With the GCD at 0.5s and LAs on the GCD people would experience what 2 actions per second actually means. I'm ready for this pace, but are the people who are actually demanding 2 actions per second?

No You don't know what "fast paced combat" means in ESO. It means that combat is dynamic because there are priorities for different actions that when needed will overwrite one another. Light attack weaving is just part of fast paced combat it's not the only element of it. But still it adds the dynamic to the rotation. Having to do one additional click inbetween every ability is adding dynamic to Your rotation and Your opinion on that fact doesn't matter because it's a fact. If it would be as You say it is that "LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action" then everybody would be able to do it perfectly after 15 minutes of practice. And somehow it's not a thing.

Having to click ability every 0,5 sec changes that dynamic drastically because from coordinated weaves You turn game into button mashing as fast as possible. Imagine clicking 6-8 spammables in a row with 0,5 sec GCD instead of 3-4 la+3-4 abilities. It would be horrible button mashing without fun and possibly it would stress players fingers way more then current la weaving because You would have to use 1 finger 8 times in 4 seconds instead of 2 fingers 4 times in 4 seconds so even less people would be able to perform it decently in longer fights and latency would become even more important factor. Combat could be faster that way but it doesn't mean it would be more dynamic or that it would be fast paced.

And You clearly have no idea how key components of code work if You want to add 0,5 sec global cooldown for everything. You don't realize that changing GCD to 0,5 sec and adding weapon attack to that system would cause massive chain reaction and would require whole combat redesign. Do You even know there is registration time for next attack in the game ? Do You realize what combos would be possible in PvP with 0,5 sec GCD ? Do You think people wuld stick to constant LA weaving if they could press 1 additional ability instead of light attack ? Do You know what 2 abilities per second would mean PvE and PvP wise ?

Seriously You bringing the argument for 0,5 sec GCD is final prove that You have completly no idea how combat in ESO works and You just want to push Your biased agenda no matter what without seeing bigger picture.

Sharee

Juhasow wrote: »

Having to do one additional click inbetween every ability is adding dynamic to Your rotation and Your opinion on that fact doesn't matter because it's a fact.

Clicking the LA key inbetween every ability, regardless of what that ability is, regardless of anything else, just mechanical click-click-click over and over like a metronome that never changes is the very definition of static.

ZeroXFF

Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressed

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.

I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.

IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.

It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?

I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.

Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.

Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.

The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.

Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.

Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).



Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".

So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.

Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.

They're different things.

Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?

LA weaving is a subset of AC.

And if you say "at most", it's not cherry-picking when I show you a contrary example, regardless of the class I pick. And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't use LAs at all if I couldn't AC them, but LAs generally do less damage than a single skill, so the % difference would remain the same or be even greater if I started replacing skills with non-cancellable LAs.

I DON'T CONSIDER LA WEAVING TO BE ANIMATION CANCELING. The 5% I give is from ACTUAL ANIMATION CANCELING!!!

besides get rid of AC and you won't even be able to block if you're in the middle of a channel when an add or boss decides to attack you. It was literally kill the reactive combat in the game.

Honestly, if you want auto attacks with just casting skills go play one of the other dozens of MMOs that are built that way. You have a choice. There's not much choice for those of us who like this game for what it is because of how the combat currently is.

Blocking or dodging doesn't increase your DPS on a dummy. Putting LAs on the GCD wouldn't affect it at all.

P.S. If you are going to come into the discussion with an alternative definition of certain terms, you should write out the definition of those terms. People can't read your mind about what you "consider" to be those terms. Because "animation cancelling" implies (drum roll) cancelling an animation, and that's exactly what happens when doing LA weaving. By not doing it your contribution to the thread instantly becomes a waste of screen space.

All my fault for not being explicitly clear! I hope you can see that you're doing the same thing!

2 button presses a second is already slow. You want 1. Got it. No further explanation needed. If I want a turn-based game, I'll go play Civ VI. I like dynamic, reactive, engaging combat from something that requires some skill and practice to master.

That said, this is like beating a dead horse. It's in the game, the devs have said it's intended. They have given it their blessing. They do it themselves (albeit poorly) when they stream the game. When about 3 out of 4 people like it the way it is based on this (admittingly unscientific) poll, I don't forsee changes coming to this particular mechanic.

Now, the changes they're proposing for the PTS are going to make it EVEN MORE essential to LA weave to sustain, particularly for low-tier and mid-tier players (and healers and tanks), so better start practicing on that dummy, thankfully I already did so, to try and be the best possible healer that I could be!

Because if you enjoy something, and you want to be good at it... you actually practice it and learn how to do a skill!!!

I already explicitly said that I don't care about how many button presses there are in a second. I just don't want to have to press 2 buttons every time I activate a skill. I don't have a problem with GCD being lowered to 0.5s to give you your much desired 2 button presses per second, but I'd much prefer pressing different buttons, not always the same one.

You don't even realize what would happen if abilities GCD would be lowered to 0,5 sec.

Who's against "fast paced" combat now?

Oh so You also don't realize what fast paced combat means in ESO. Nice.

And when I said You don't realize what would happen after lowering GCD to 0,5 sec I wasn't talking only about how speed of the combat would change.

I do know what "fast paced combat" means, and I know that having to click before using a skill isn't it, because the rate at which you have to make decisions doesn't change. LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action.

This is the compromise solution for those who reject putting LAs on the GCD with the excuse "1 button a second is slow". With the GCD at 0.5s and LAs on the GCD people would experience what 2 actions per second actually means. I'm ready for this pace, but are the people who are actually demanding 2 actions per second?

No You don't know what "fast paced combat" means in ESO. It means that combat is dynamic because there are priorities for different actions that when needed will overwrite one another. Light attack weaving is just part of fast paced combat it's not the only element of it. But still it adds the dynamic to the rotation. Having to do one additional click inbetween every ability is adding dynamic to Your rotation and Your opinion on that fact doesn't matter because it's a fact. If it would be as You say it is that "LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action" then everybody would be able to do it perfectly after 15 minutes of practice. And somehow it's not a thing.

Having to click ability every 0,5 sec changes that dynamic drastically because from coordinated weaves You turn game into button mashing as fast as possible. Imagine clicking 6-8 spammables in a row with 0,5 sec GCD instead of 3-4 la+3-4 abilities. It would be horrible button mashing without fun and possibly it would stress players fingers way more then current la weaving because You would have to use 1 finger 8 times in 4 seconds instead of 2 fingers 4 times in 4 seconds so even less people would be able to perform it decently in longer fights and latency would become even more important factor. Combat could be faster that way but it doesn't mean it would be more dynamic or that it would be fast paced.

And You clearly have no idea how key components of code work if You want to add 0,5 sec global cooldown for everything. You don't realize that changing GCD to 0,5 sec and adding weapon attack to that system would cause massive chain reaction and would require whole combat redesign. Do You even know there is registration time for next attack in the game ? Do You realize what combos would be possible in PvP with 0,5 sec GCD ? Do You think people wuld stick to constant LA weaving if they could press 1 additional ability instead of light attack ? Do You know what 2 abilities per second would mean PvE and PvP wise ?

Seriously You bringing the argument for 0,5 sec GCD is final prove that You have completly no idea how combat in ESO works and You just want to push Your biased agenda no matter what without seeing bigger picture.

No, it's proof that people defending LA weaving don't actually want 2 APS, they want 1 APS with complicated keybinds.

tmbrinks

No, the skill gap is fine.

Tigerseye wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

justaquickword wrote: »

This is starting to remind me of the arguments over Brexit...

In reminds me of it too, but in the sense that no one wants to compromise. It's either all the way in or all the way out. And that's probably why this is still an unresolved problem nearly a half decade later.

Which is why I'm sympathetic to the suggestions of the OP.

If they put in an optional auto attack, this would give players who can't or won't weave a competitive option to help "narrow the skill gap" (which was supposedly the goal of these awful changes). Players who enjoy manual weaving and want to keep doing it may still do so.

What's wrong with that?

Is the "automated" attack going to do less damage than a normal LA? Otherwise who choose the dps loss?

LA are like 15% of dps (unless you're using a skill to specifically boost them, like Ele Weapon), that 15% doesn't account for the vast difference between "end-game" and "mid-tier"

Nerf LA damage by 30%. Boost skill damage by like 3%. Top tier people will pull the same DPS. mid-tier will gain dps. Sadly the LA spammers will lose dps.

Not sure what happened to my first response to you (it just vanished): but players who don't light attack weave would be the ones who would choose this automated attack. Because even if it would ultimately be less damage than players who manually did it - at least this way it wouldn't shut them out completely from the benefits of weaving light attacks into their rotations. So it would narrow the gap between players who can weave and those who can't, which if I read it correctly is the supposed goal.

To me that's a much better solution then implementing these terrible changes on the PTS.

Yeah, that has been happening a lot of the forums lately. Whether it's due to overloaded servers, or stealth moderation, I don't know.

If the auto attack did like 50% of the dps of somebody who was a 0.7 LA/sec weaver, fine. But much more than that and it'll be too strong.

No, auto-attack light attacks would have to be equal, in terms of pure DPS, as manually applied light attacks.

In GW2, where auto-attack is optional (it can be disabled), there is no (official) DPS advantage to disabling it, as far as I know.

However, I did hear a player claim, there, that you could increase DPS by disabling it, if you knew how to weave.

Presumably, as your light attacks might be even better timed, in relation to your skills, than the auto-attack ones?

However, there is no DPS advantage to each individual, non auto-attack light attack and that is the way it should be.

Then it's an unequivocal "NO" from me. Let this game have some skill to it.

Juhasow

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.

I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.

IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.

It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?

I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.

Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.

Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.

The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.

Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.

Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).



Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".

So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.

Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.

They're different things.

Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?

LA weaving is a subset of AC.

And if you say "at most", it's not cherry-picking when I show you a contrary example, regardless of the class I pick. And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't use LAs at all if I couldn't AC them, but LAs generally do less damage than a single skill, so the % difference would remain the same or be even greater if I started replacing skills with non-cancellable LAs.

I DON'T CONSIDER LA WEAVING TO BE ANIMATION CANCELING. The 5% I give is from ACTUAL ANIMATION CANCELING!!!

besides get rid of AC and you won't even be able to block if you're in the middle of a channel when an add or boss decides to attack you. It was literally kill the reactive combat in the game.

Honestly, if you want auto attacks with just casting skills go play one of the other dozens of MMOs that are built that way. You have a choice. There's not much choice for those of us who like this game for what it is because of how the combat currently is.

Blocking or dodging doesn't increase your DPS on a dummy. Putting LAs on the GCD wouldn't affect it at all.

P.S. If you are going to come into the discussion with an alternative definition of certain terms, you should write out the definition of those terms. People can't read your mind about what you "consider" to be those terms. Because "animation cancelling" implies (drum roll) cancelling an animation, and that's exactly what happens when doing LA weaving. By not doing it your contribution to the thread instantly becomes a waste of screen space.

All my fault for not being explicitly clear! I hope you can see that you're doing the same thing!

2 button presses a second is already slow. You want 1. Got it. No further explanation needed. If I want a turn-based game, I'll go play Civ VI. I like dynamic, reactive, engaging combat from something that requires some skill and practice to master.

That said, this is like beating a dead horse. It's in the game, the devs have said it's intended. They have given it their blessing. They do it themselves (albeit poorly) when they stream the game. When about 3 out of 4 people like it the way it is based on this (admittingly unscientific) poll, I don't forsee changes coming to this particular mechanic.

Now, the changes they're proposing for the PTS are going to make it EVEN MORE essential to LA weave to sustain, particularly for low-tier and mid-tier players (and healers and tanks), so better start practicing on that dummy, thankfully I already did so, to try and be the best possible healer that I could be!

Because if you enjoy something, and you want to be good at it... you actually practice it and learn how to do a skill!!!

I already explicitly said that I don't care about how many button presses there are in a second. I just don't want to have to press 2 buttons every time I activate a skill. I don't have a problem with GCD being lowered to 0.5s to give you your much desired 2 button presses per second, but I'd much prefer pressing different buttons, not always the same one.

You don't even realize what would happen if abilities GCD would be lowered to 0,5 sec.

Who's against "fast paced" combat now?

Oh so You also don't realize what fast paced combat means in ESO. Nice.

And when I said You don't realize what would happen after lowering GCD to 0,5 sec I wasn't talking only about how speed of the combat would change.

I do know what "fast paced combat" means, and I know that having to click before using a skill isn't it, because the rate at which you have to make decisions doesn't change. LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action.

This is the compromise solution for those who reject putting LAs on the GCD with the excuse "1 button a second is slow". With the GCD at 0.5s and LAs on the GCD people would experience what 2 actions per second actually means. I'm ready for this pace, but are the people who are actually demanding 2 actions per second?

No You don't know what "fast paced combat" means in ESO. It means that combat is dynamic because there are priorities for different actions that when needed will overwrite one another. Light attack weaving is just part of fast paced combat it's not the only element of it. But still it adds the dynamic to the rotation. Having to do one additional click inbetween every ability is adding dynamic to Your rotation and Your opinion on that fact doesn't matter because it's a fact. If it would be as You say it is that "LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action" then everybody would be able to do it perfectly after 15 minutes of practice. And somehow it's not a thing.

Having to click ability every 0,5 sec changes that dynamic drastically because from coordinated weaves You turn game into button mashing as fast as possible. Imagine clicking 6-8 spammables in a row with 0,5 sec GCD instead of 3-4 la+3-4 abilities. It would be horrible button mashing without fun and possibly it would stress players fingers way more then current la weaving because You would have to use 1 finger 8 times in 4 seconds instead of 2 fingers 4 times in 4 seconds so even less people would be able to perform it decently in longer fights and latency would become even more important factor. Combat could be faster that way but it doesn't mean it would be more dynamic or that it would be fast paced.

And You clearly have no idea how key components of code work if You want to add 0,5 sec global cooldown for everything. You don't realize that changing GCD to 0,5 sec and adding weapon attack to that system would cause massive chain reaction and would require whole combat redesign. Do You even know there is registration time for next attack in the game ? Do You realize what combos would be possible in PvP with 0,5 sec GCD ? Do You think people wuld stick to constant LA weaving if they could press 1 additional ability instead of light attack ? Do You know what 2 abilities per second would mean PvE and PvP wise ?

Seriously You bringing the argument for 0,5 sec GCD is final prove that You have completly no idea how combat in ESO works and You just want to push Your biased agenda no matter what without seeing bigger picture.

No, it's proof that people defending LA weaving don't actually want 2 APS, they want 1 APS with complicated keybinds.

Hmmm....

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I do know what "fast paced combat" means, and I know that having to click before using a skill isn't it, because the rate at which you have to make decisions doesn't change. LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action.

So is it complicated or not ? Or You're saying that somehow it's complicated but in terms of brain power it isn't ? Fact that You've started to disprove Your own words within 2 posts proves You're out of arguments if You ever had any. Also I like how You highlited finishing conclusion of my previous post and completly avoided responding to more important parts of it explaining why that conclusion was made. Nice try of avoiding reality. If anything You're a proff that some of the people against light attack weaving have close to none sensible arguments and usually those people are the loudest in the crowd. And sorry but being the loudest and repeating the same nonsensical thing over and over doesn't validate Your arguments.

xF1REFL1x

Lysette wrote: »

i guess, most do not even care - let the 5% have their fun with higher dps and do harder content - for most it is good enough to just get through normal content somewhat - somewhat is good enough, having fun is more important than practicing repetitive actions IMO.

I don't know about this... parsing and practicing your rotation on a 21m dummy is actually really fun. Seeing those numbers go up even slightly is rewarding. A basic rotation is not hard to learn... and practicing to improve your game play is what ESO was all about... sad to see them moving away. Guess we all get blue ribbons now.

ZeroXFF

Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressed

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.

I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.

IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.

It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?

I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.

Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.

Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.

The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.

Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.

Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).



Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".

So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.

Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.

They're different things.

Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?

LA weaving is a subset of AC.

And if you say "at most", it's not cherry-picking when I show you a contrary example, regardless of the class I pick. And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't use LAs at all if I couldn't AC them, but LAs generally do less damage than a single skill, so the % difference would remain the same or be even greater if I started replacing skills with non-cancellable LAs.

I DON'T CONSIDER LA WEAVING TO BE ANIMATION CANCELING. The 5% I give is from ACTUAL ANIMATION CANCELING!!!

besides get rid of AC and you won't even be able to block if you're in the middle of a channel when an add or boss decides to attack you. It was literally kill the reactive combat in the game.

Honestly, if you want auto attacks with just casting skills go play one of the other dozens of MMOs that are built that way. You have a choice. There's not much choice for those of us who like this game for what it is because of how the combat currently is.

Blocking or dodging doesn't increase your DPS on a dummy. Putting LAs on the GCD wouldn't affect it at all.

P.S. If you are going to come into the discussion with an alternative definition of certain terms, you should write out the definition of those terms. People can't read your mind about what you "consider" to be those terms. Because "animation cancelling" implies (drum roll) cancelling an animation, and that's exactly what happens when doing LA weaving. By not doing it your contribution to the thread instantly becomes a waste of screen space.

All my fault for not being explicitly clear! I hope you can see that you're doing the same thing!

2 button presses a second is already slow. You want 1. Got it. No further explanation needed. If I want a turn-based game, I'll go play Civ VI. I like dynamic, reactive, engaging combat from something that requires some skill and practice to master.

That said, this is like beating a dead horse. It's in the game, the devs have said it's intended. They have given it their blessing. They do it themselves (albeit poorly) when they stream the game. When about 3 out of 4 people like it the way it is based on this (admittingly unscientific) poll, I don't forsee changes coming to this particular mechanic.

Now, the changes they're proposing for the PTS are going to make it EVEN MORE essential to LA weave to sustain, particularly for low-tier and mid-tier players (and healers and tanks), so better start practicing on that dummy, thankfully I already did so, to try and be the best possible healer that I could be!

Because if you enjoy something, and you want to be good at it... you actually practice it and learn how to do a skill!!!

I already explicitly said that I don't care about how many button presses there are in a second. I just don't want to have to press 2 buttons every time I activate a skill. I don't have a problem with GCD being lowered to 0.5s to give you your much desired 2 button presses per second, but I'd much prefer pressing different buttons, not always the same one.

You don't even realize what would happen if abilities GCD would be lowered to 0,5 sec.

Who's against "fast paced" combat now?

Oh so You also don't realize what fast paced combat means in ESO. Nice.

And when I said You don't realize what would happen after lowering GCD to 0,5 sec I wasn't talking only about how speed of the combat would change.

I do know what "fast paced combat" means, and I know that having to click before using a skill isn't it, because the rate at which you have to make decisions doesn't change. LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action.

This is the compromise solution for those who reject putting LAs on the GCD with the excuse "1 button a second is slow". With the GCD at 0.5s and LAs on the GCD people would experience what 2 actions per second actually means. I'm ready for this pace, but are the people who are actually demanding 2 actions per second?

No You don't know what "fast paced combat" means in ESO. It means that combat is dynamic because there are priorities for different actions that when needed will overwrite one another. Light attack weaving is just part of fast paced combat it's not the only element of it. But still it adds the dynamic to the rotation. Having to do one additional click inbetween every ability is adding dynamic to Your rotation and Your opinion on that fact doesn't matter because it's a fact. If it would be as You say it is that "LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action" then everybody would be able to do it perfectly after 15 minutes of practice. And somehow it's not a thing.

Having to click ability every 0,5 sec changes that dynamic drastically because from coordinated weaves You turn game into button mashing as fast as possible. Imagine clicking 6-8 spammables in a row with 0,5 sec GCD instead of 3-4 la+3-4 abilities. It would be horrible button mashing without fun and possibly it would stress players fingers way more then current la weaving because You would have to use 1 finger 8 times in 4 seconds instead of 2 fingers 4 times in 4 seconds so even less people would be able to perform it decently in longer fights and latency would become even more important factor. Combat could be faster that way but it doesn't mean it would be more dynamic or that it would be fast paced.

And You clearly have no idea how key components of code work if You want to add 0,5 sec global cooldown for everything. You don't realize that changing GCD to 0,5 sec and adding weapon attack to that system would cause massive chain reaction and would require whole combat redesign. Do You even know there is registration time for next attack in the game ? Do You realize what combos would be possible in PvP with 0,5 sec GCD ? Do You think people wuld stick to constant LA weaving if they could press 1 additional ability instead of light attack ? Do You know what 2 abilities per second would mean PvE and PvP wise ?

Seriously You bringing the argument for 0,5 sec GCD is final prove that You have completly no idea how combat in ESO works and You just want to push Your biased agenda no matter what without seeing bigger picture.

No, it's proof that people defending LA weaving don't actually want 2 APS, they want 1 APS with complicated keybinds.

Hmmm....

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I do know what "fast paced combat" means, and I know that having to click before using a skill isn't it, because the rate at which you have to make decisions doesn't change. LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action.

So is it complicated or not ? Or You're saying that somehow it's complicated but in terms of brain power it isn't ? Fact that You've started to disprove Your own words within 2 posts proves You're out of arguments if You ever had any. Also I like how You highlited finishing conclusion of my previous post and completly avoided responding to more important parts of it explaining why that conclusion was made. Nice try of avoiding reality. If anything You're a proff that some of the people against light attack weaving have close to none sensible arguments and usually those people are the loudest in the crowd. And sorry but being the loudest and repeating the same nonsensical thing over and over doesn't validate Your arguments.

It's complicated in terms of finger dexterity, not brain power. You're not making decisions, you're just pressing extra buttons for no good reason. Do I need to chew it a bit more for you, or are you capable of understanding the point being made now?

It's not me who is out of arguments, you still haven't really disproven a single one of my arguments. Do you want 2 APS, or do you want 1 with complicated keybinds? Because if you consider a LA a separate action, and high APM a desirable goal, why not make it so that we also have to hold down Shift when using a skill to do 20% more damage, but while holding it, we can't do a light attack. Also, make it so that we do 10% more damage for 5 seconds when we press a backspace before a light attack. And of course don't forget an Alt while holding shift for the next skill to give your attack 10% more crit... 5 APS for optimal performance, this must be great game design, right?

relentless_turnip

No, the skill gap is fine.

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.

I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.

IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.

It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?

I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.

Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.

Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.

The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.

Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.

Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).



Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".

So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.

Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.

They're different things.

Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?

LA weaving is a subset of AC.

And if you say "at most", it's not cherry-picking when I show you a contrary example, regardless of the class I pick. And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't use LAs at all if I couldn't AC them, but LAs generally do less damage than a single skill, so the % difference would remain the same or be even greater if I started replacing skills with non-cancellable LAs.

I DON'T CONSIDER LA WEAVING TO BE ANIMATION CANCELING. The 5% I give is from ACTUAL ANIMATION CANCELING!!!

besides get rid of AC and you won't even be able to block if you're in the middle of a channel when an add or boss decides to attack you. It was literally kill the reactive combat in the game.

Honestly, if you want auto attacks with just casting skills go play one of the other dozens of MMOs that are built that way. You have a choice. There's not much choice for those of us who like this game for what it is because of how the combat currently is.

Blocking or dodging doesn't increase your DPS on a dummy. Putting LAs on the GCD wouldn't affect it at all.

P.S. If you are going to come into the discussion with an alternative definition of certain terms, you should write out the definition of those terms. People can't read your mind about what you "consider" to be those terms. Because "animation cancelling" implies (drum roll) cancelling an animation, and that's exactly what happens when doing LA weaving. By not doing it your contribution to the thread instantly becomes a waste of screen space.

All my fault for not being explicitly clear! I hope you can see that you're doing the same thing!

2 button presses a second is already slow. You want 1. Got it. No further explanation needed. If I want a turn-based game, I'll go play Civ VI. I like dynamic, reactive, engaging combat from something that requires some skill and practice to master.

That said, this is like beating a dead horse. It's in the game, the devs have said it's intended. They have given it their blessing. They do it themselves (albeit poorly) when they stream the game. When about 3 out of 4 people like it the way it is based on this (admittingly unscientific) poll, I don't forsee changes coming to this particular mechanic.

Now, the changes they're proposing for the PTS are going to make it EVEN MORE essential to LA weave to sustain, particularly for low-tier and mid-tier players (and healers and tanks), so better start practicing on that dummy, thankfully I already did so, to try and be the best possible healer that I could be!

Because if you enjoy something, and you want to be good at it... you actually practice it and learn how to do a skill!!!

I already explicitly said that I don't care about how many button presses there are in a second. I just don't want to have to press 2 buttons every time I activate a skill. I don't have a problem with GCD being lowered to 0.5s to give you your much desired 2 button presses per second, but I'd much prefer pressing different buttons, not always the same one.

You don't even realize what would happen if abilities GCD would be lowered to 0,5 sec.

Who's against "fast paced" combat now?

Oh so You also don't realize what fast paced combat means in ESO. Nice.

And when I said You don't realize what would happen after lowering GCD to 0,5 sec I wasn't talking only about how speed of the combat would change.

I do know what "fast paced combat" means, and I know that having to click before using a skill isn't it, because the rate at which you have to make decisions doesn't change. LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action.

This is the compromise solution for those who reject putting LAs on the GCD with the excuse "1 button a second is slow". With the GCD at 0.5s and LAs on the GCD people would experience what 2 actions per second actually means. I'm ready for this pace, but are the people who are actually demanding 2 actions per second?

No You don't know what "fast paced combat" means in ESO. It means that combat is dynamic because there are priorities for different actions that when needed will overwrite one another. Light attack weaving is just part of fast paced combat it's not the only element of it. But still it adds the dynamic to the rotation. Having to do one additional click inbetween every ability is adding dynamic to Your rotation and Your opinion on that fact doesn't matter because it's a fact. If it would be as You say it is that "LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action" then everybody would be able to do it perfectly after 15 minutes of practice. And somehow it's not a thing.

Having to click ability every 0,5 sec changes that dynamic drastically because from coordinated weaves You turn game into button mashing as fast as possible. Imagine clicking 6-8 spammables in a row with 0,5 sec GCD instead of 3-4 la+3-4 abilities. It would be horrible button mashing without fun and possibly it would stress players fingers way more then current la weaving because You would have to use 1 finger 8 times in 4 seconds instead of 2 fingers 4 times in 4 seconds so even less people would be able to perform it decently in longer fights and latency would become even more important factor. Combat could be faster that way but it doesn't mean it would be more dynamic or that it would be fast paced.

And You clearly have no idea how key components of code work if You want to add 0,5 sec global cooldown for everything. You don't realize that changing GCD to 0,5 sec and adding weapon attack to that system would cause massive chain reaction and would require whole combat redesign. Do You even know there is registration time for next attack in the game ? Do You realize what combos would be possible in PvP with 0,5 sec GCD ? Do You think people wuld stick to constant LA weaving if they could press 1 additional ability instead of light attack ? Do You know what 2 abilities per second would mean PvE and PvP wise ?

Seriously You bringing the argument for 0,5 sec GCD is final prove that You have completly no idea how combat in ESO works and You just want to push Your biased agenda no matter what without seeing bigger picture.

No, it's proof that people defending LA weaving don't actually want 2 APS, they want 1 APS with complicated keybinds.

Hmmm....

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I do know what "fast paced combat" means, and I know that having to click before using a skill isn't it, because the rate at which you have to make decisions doesn't change. LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action.

So is it complicated or not ? Or You're saying that somehow it's complicated but in terms of brain power it isn't ? Fact that You've started to disprove Your own words within 2 posts proves You're out of arguments if You ever had any. Also I like how You highlited finishing conclusion of my previous post and completly avoided responding to more important parts of it explaining why that conclusion was made. Nice try of avoiding reality. If anything You're a proff that some of the people against light attack weaving have close to none sensible arguments and usually those people are the loudest in the crowd. And sorry but being the loudest and repeating the same nonsensical thing over and over doesn't validate Your arguments.

It's complicated in terms of finger dexterity, not brain power. You're not making decisions, you're just pressing extra buttons for no good reason. Do I need to chew it a bit more for you, or are you capable of understanding the point being made now?

It's not me who is out of arguments, you still haven't really disproven a single one of my arguments. Do you want 2 APS, or do you want 1 with complicated keybinds? Because if you consider a LA a separate action, and high APM a desirable goal, why not make it so that we also have to hold down Shift when using a skill to do 20% more damage, but while holding it, we can't do a light attack. Also, make it so that we do 10% more damage for 5 seconds when we press a backspace before a light attack. And of course don't forget an Alt while holding shift for the next skill to give your attack 10% more crit... 5 APS for optimal performance, this must be great game design, right?

wasn't I having this conversation with you earlier today?

It isn't a good idea... I have done my best to explain to you why, but you are still continuing to argue it.

What is this added nonsense about pressing shift for major brutality/sorcery damage and backspace for minor force?
Firstly everything you have said widens the skill gap in a thread discussing shrinking the skill gap.
Secondly why would you want to completely rewrite combat?

I assume because you are part of an ESO forum you like some element of the game? why not play a different game if you don't?

By being able to do 2 skills a second you have got the same thing with more damage, as I said your spammable will probably replace the light attack weaved.
A lot of your issues with combat could be resolved by changing your keybindings... why not allocate your first skill to shift(buff) your second to backspace(race against time for example) and put your light attack to what ever key you want...

When you have done this tell me if combat was more engaging. Will 2 skills a second instead of 1 and a light attack be any more meaningful? You must understand you are suggesting the same thing with this change only with higher damage?

tmbrinks

No, the skill gap is fine.

haha... I love how the counter-arguments just keep getting more and ridiculous

As if increasing the absurdity makes it more likely we're going to change our minds

relentless_turnip

No, the skill gap is fine.

tmbrinks wrote: »

haha... I love how the counter-arguments just keep getting more and ridiculous

As if increasing the absurdity makes it more likely we're going to change our minds

I know

You must sing an Ab into your microphone to get minor expedition!!!

Shoes should replace light attacks!!!

Daffen

No, the skill gap is fine.

So whats the argument here, why do we need to change how light attack weaving and animation canceling works? Come with a specific and well-constructed argument without mentioning that its an exploit since developers have acknowledged it and accepted it.

ZeroXFF

Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressed

tmbrinks wrote: »

haha... I love how the counter-arguments just keep getting more and ridiculous

As if increasing the absurdity makes it more likely we're going to change our minds

The most ridiculous thing is, the absurd arguments come from the defenders of the LA weaving camp. You have no argument, because you are defending the absurd design that you yourself are then arguing against.

ZeroXFF

Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressed

relentless_turnip wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.

I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.

IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.

It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?

I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.

Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.

Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.

The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.

Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.

Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).



Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".

So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.

Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.

They're different things.

Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?

LA weaving is a subset of AC.

And if you say "at most", it's not cherry-picking when I show you a contrary example, regardless of the class I pick. And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't use LAs at all if I couldn't AC them, but LAs generally do less damage than a single skill, so the % difference would remain the same or be even greater if I started replacing skills with non-cancellable LAs.

I DON'T CONSIDER LA WEAVING TO BE ANIMATION CANCELING. The 5% I give is from ACTUAL ANIMATION CANCELING!!!

besides get rid of AC and you won't even be able to block if you're in the middle of a channel when an add or boss decides to attack you. It was literally kill the reactive combat in the game.

Honestly, if you want auto attacks with just casting skills go play one of the other dozens of MMOs that are built that way. You have a choice. There's not much choice for those of us who like this game for what it is because of how the combat currently is.

Blocking or dodging doesn't increase your DPS on a dummy. Putting LAs on the GCD wouldn't affect it at all.

P.S. If you are going to come into the discussion with an alternative definition of certain terms, you should write out the definition of those terms. People can't read your mind about what you "consider" to be those terms. Because "animation cancelling" implies (drum roll) cancelling an animation, and that's exactly what happens when doing LA weaving. By not doing it your contribution to the thread instantly becomes a waste of screen space.

All my fault for not being explicitly clear! I hope you can see that you're doing the same thing!

2 button presses a second is already slow. You want 1. Got it. No further explanation needed. If I want a turn-based game, I'll go play Civ VI. I like dynamic, reactive, engaging combat from something that requires some skill and practice to master.

That said, this is like beating a dead horse. It's in the game, the devs have said it's intended. They have given it their blessing. They do it themselves (albeit poorly) when they stream the game. When about 3 out of 4 people like it the way it is based on this (admittingly unscientific) poll, I don't forsee changes coming to this particular mechanic.

Now, the changes they're proposing for the PTS are going to make it EVEN MORE essential to LA weave to sustain, particularly for low-tier and mid-tier players (and healers and tanks), so better start practicing on that dummy, thankfully I already did so, to try and be the best possible healer that I could be!

Because if you enjoy something, and you want to be good at it... you actually practice it and learn how to do a skill!!!

I already explicitly said that I don't care about how many button presses there are in a second. I just don't want to have to press 2 buttons every time I activate a skill. I don't have a problem with GCD being lowered to 0.5s to give you your much desired 2 button presses per second, but I'd much prefer pressing different buttons, not always the same one.

You don't even realize what would happen if abilities GCD would be lowered to 0,5 sec.

Who's against "fast paced" combat now?

Oh so You also don't realize what fast paced combat means in ESO. Nice.

And when I said You don't realize what would happen after lowering GCD to 0,5 sec I wasn't talking only about how speed of the combat would change.

I do know what "fast paced combat" means, and I know that having to click before using a skill isn't it, because the rate at which you have to make decisions doesn't change. LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action.

This is the compromise solution for those who reject putting LAs on the GCD with the excuse "1 button a second is slow". With the GCD at 0.5s and LAs on the GCD people would experience what 2 actions per second actually means. I'm ready for this pace, but are the people who are actually demanding 2 actions per second?

No You don't know what "fast paced combat" means in ESO. It means that combat is dynamic because there are priorities for different actions that when needed will overwrite one another. Light attack weaving is just part of fast paced combat it's not the only element of it. But still it adds the dynamic to the rotation. Having to do one additional click inbetween every ability is adding dynamic to Your rotation and Your opinion on that fact doesn't matter because it's a fact. If it would be as You say it is that "LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action" then everybody would be able to do it perfectly after 15 minutes of practice. And somehow it's not a thing.

Having to click ability every 0,5 sec changes that dynamic drastically because from coordinated weaves You turn game into button mashing as fast as possible. Imagine clicking 6-8 spammables in a row with 0,5 sec GCD instead of 3-4 la+3-4 abilities. It would be horrible button mashing without fun and possibly it would stress players fingers way more then current la weaving because You would have to use 1 finger 8 times in 4 seconds instead of 2 fingers 4 times in 4 seconds so even less people would be able to perform it decently in longer fights and latency would become even more important factor. Combat could be faster that way but it doesn't mean it would be more dynamic or that it would be fast paced.

And You clearly have no idea how key components of code work if You want to add 0,5 sec global cooldown for everything. You don't realize that changing GCD to 0,5 sec and adding weapon attack to that system would cause massive chain reaction and would require whole combat redesign. Do You even know there is registration time for next attack in the game ? Do You realize what combos would be possible in PvP with 0,5 sec GCD ? Do You think people wuld stick to constant LA weaving if they could press 1 additional ability instead of light attack ? Do You know what 2 abilities per second would mean PvE and PvP wise ?

Seriously You bringing the argument for 0,5 sec GCD is final prove that You have completly no idea how combat in ESO works and You just want to push Your biased agenda no matter what without seeing bigger picture.

No, it's proof that people defending LA weaving don't actually want 2 APS, they want 1 APS with complicated keybinds.

Hmmm....

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I do know what "fast paced combat" means, and I know that having to click before using a skill isn't it, because the rate at which you have to make decisions doesn't change. LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action.

So is it complicated or not ? Or You're saying that somehow it's complicated but in terms of brain power it isn't ? Fact that You've started to disprove Your own words within 2 posts proves You're out of arguments if You ever had any. Also I like how You highlited finishing conclusion of my previous post and completly avoided responding to more important parts of it explaining why that conclusion was made. Nice try of avoiding reality. If anything You're a proff that some of the people against light attack weaving have close to none sensible arguments and usually those people are the loudest in the crowd. And sorry but being the loudest and repeating the same nonsensical thing over and over doesn't validate Your arguments.

It's complicated in terms of finger dexterity, not brain power. You're not making decisions, you're just pressing extra buttons for no good reason. Do I need to chew it a bit more for you, or are you capable of understanding the point being made now?

It's not me who is out of arguments, you still haven't really disproven a single one of my arguments. Do you want 2 APS, or do you want 1 with complicated keybinds? Because if you consider a LA a separate action, and high APM a desirable goal, why not make it so that we also have to hold down Shift when using a skill to do 20% more damage, but while holding it, we can't do a light attack. Also, make it so that we do 10% more damage for 5 seconds when we press a backspace before a light attack. And of course don't forget an Alt while holding shift for the next skill to give your attack 10% more crit... 5 APS for optimal performance, this must be great game design, right?

wasn't I having this conversation with you earlier today?

It isn't a good idea... I have done my best to explain to you why, but you are still continuing to argue it.

What is this added nonsense about pressing shift for major brutality/sorcery damage and backspace for minor force?
Firstly everything you have said widens the skill gap in a thread discussing shrinking the skill gap.
Secondly why would you want to completely rewrite combat?

I assume because you are part of an ESO forum you like some element of the game? why not play a different game if you don't?

By being able to do 2 skills a second you have got the same thing with more damage, as I said your spammable will probably replace the light attack weaved.
A lot of your issues with combat could be resolved by changing your keybindings... why not allocate your first skill to shift(buff) your second to backspace(race against time for example) and put your light attack to what ever key you want...

When you have done this tell me if combat was more engaging. Will 2 skills a second instead of 1 and a light attack be any more meaningful? You must understand you are suggesting the same thing with this change only with higher damage?

If your best explanation is basically arguing against your own point, then I'm sorry for you.

You are saying you want 2 APS, but then when I suggest a true 2 APS system, you are against it. You do not want 2 APS, you want 1 APS, because you lack the skill to play with 2 APS, but your hands are flexible enough to do a complicated key combination whenever you perform that single action, and you want this to be recognized as "skill".

You are laughing about the example I have given you, but you still don't realize that from a design perspective it's identical to LA weaving. Yes, it's absurd, I'm glad you're smart enough to recognize that, but so is LA weaving.

ZeroXFF

Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressed

relentless_turnip wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

haha... I love how the counter-arguments just keep getting more and ridiculous

As if increasing the absurdity makes it more likely we're going to change our minds

I know

You must sing an Ab into your microphone to get minor expedition!!!

Shoes should replace light attacks!!!

That's literally what LAs are. At the end of the day with the current system you perform a fancy dance on your keyboard to just cast force pulse.