The skill gap is too great due to twitch-based reflex type combat like weaving and animation cancel.

tmbrinks

No, the skill gap is fine.

idk wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

idk wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Wihuri wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.

Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?

Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?

They designed the game wrong.

Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.

Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.

Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.

Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.

I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.

...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.

I just don't like messy, amateurish design.

I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.

Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.

In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.

No, in "real content" macros are not a disadvantage, only bad macros are. There is a way of designing a game so that only bad (or very situational) macros are possible, but that is not the case with ESO. I'd explain more, but I'm not eager to be banned.

"I know it's happening" but.. "I'm not going to share". The mantra of those that exaggerate

TBF it is never a good idea to explain how to exploit and macros are an exploit.

Further, while I have never used a macro in combat, with the LA weave meta Zos created in Morrowind is really does push using macros. It is easy to set up a LA weave macro.

Let's be frank here. No one is actually going to admit they use macros but we all know the importance of hitting those LAs.

Yeah, I've now got Gryphon Heart, Immortal Redeemer, and Tick-Tock Tormentor, and I've never used a macro. I'd feel much less accomplished had I. Yes, I'm a healer, so LA weaving is mush less important, but looking at logs, I'm fairly confident that I'm at least okay at them.

Clearly I did not indicate everyone used macros. Further, as a healer, it is a non-issue. The bigger issue healers with the idea Zos proposed is they will have to either stack more regen or learn to LA reliably if they are currently used to doing HAs to help with sustain.

There is an idea proposed by someone named Code that is well thought and considered playstyles at all levels of the game. I am not suggesting it is perfect but it is by far the best suggestion any players have proposed. Certainly more constructive than purposely biased polls. The link is below.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/517845/how-the-la-ha-changes-fail-to-fulfill-zoss-stated-goals-and-what-could-be-done-instead/p1

That was partially my point.

I already LA weave as a healer, I'm not as good at it as our DD's, but I do it. These changes aren't going to really hurt me, an end-game healer, who already weaves.

It's going to kill those that don't though, and they'll have to learn.

(And I'm well aware of Code's post... We're on the same raid team )

YandereGirlfriend

No, the skill gap is fine.

Fun Fact of the Day: You can animation-cancel in Skyrim.

It's been too long since I've played Oblivion to know if it is available there, but I simply wanted to debunk the oft-repeated claim that animation-cancelling is somehow an exogenous feature that has sneaked in from other series.

Kiyakotari

No, the skill gap is fine.

I suck at DPS. Straight up. I hit 10K DPS, I'm happy as a clam. I hit 20K DPS, I start wondering if maybe Combat Metrics isn't reporting accurately, because no way I'm doing that much. My hands are too messed up for me to be good at DPS. I'm cool with that. I have my DPS toons, and I play around with them as long as it's not anything serious where other people really need to rely on me.

You know what I do? I tank. I heal. I'm the "oh crap our tank dropped" pocket tank for a whole bunch of people, from a whole range of skill levels. Beginners who need a tank that will basically half-carry them through Fungal 1, all the way up through end-game vet trials prog groups. And that's fine because not everyone is good at everything. Not everyone has to excel in all areas. I don't get why people have trouble understanding or accepting that.

coletas

No, the skill gap is fine.

It doesnt matter when 1 skill takes a year to fire in cyro... Or when you fire It, the bar has autoswapped or when the enemy is 10 meters away from you are watching on screen, or when you shoot a npc that is 10 meters behind the enemy you have targeted, or you oupps... Blocking is not anymore bloxking XD now seriously, the gameplay is great in the normal way... But only works at 3am lol

zyk

No, the skill gap is fine.

Threads like this have disturbed me for years because at their essence, they want to limit how good other players can be so they are relatively less bad.

This would be somewhat understandable if they were completely missing out on content like which would happen in older MMOs, but playing ESO optimally is completely optional. ESO is an extremely forgiving game and even vet level content does not require animation cancelling or twitchy reflexes. And if vet is too difficult, there is a very easy normal version available.

I think what bothers the majority of players is the reality that there are so many players who are unfathomably better than them and they can't deal with it. They want to be the super special hero that all the NPCs rave about and that twitchy 22 year old who can play 12 hours a day is ruining their immersion.

We all slow down. It's okay to be subpar at something. Let those who are able to excel expose their potential. This is how some young people learn how to be successful in life.

Sylvermynx

No, the skill gap is fine.

zyk wrote: »

Threads like this have disturbed me for years because at their essence, they want to limit how good other players can be so they are relatively less bad.

This would be somewhat understandable if they were completely missing out on content like which would happen in older MMOs, but playing ESO optimally is completely optional. ESO is an extremely forgiving game and even vet level content does not require animation cancelling or twitchy reflexes. And if vet is too difficult, there is a very easy normal version available.

I think what bothers the majority of players is the reality that there are so many players who are unfathomably better than them and they can't deal with it. They want to be the super special hero that all the NPCs rave about and that twitchy 22 year old who can play 12 hours a day is ruining their immersion.

We all slow down. It's okay to be subpar at something. Let those who are able to excel expose their potential. This is how some young people learn how to be successful in life.

Yup. You got it.

I don't care because for me, just getting through quest content is a bonus. Endgame? Nah.... no interest, and satellite is NOT ever going to make it viable even if I thought it had any value (I don't - not for me, and I'm the only one I care about....)

Madhatten512

No, the skill gap is fine.

Its a combat game there will always be a skill gap they already allow you [snip] to run in full faction stacked hoards they have made support builds outperform damage builds in almost everyway possible, and they have dumbed down combat so much I could teach a monkey to do it.. [snip]. If your bad at the game there isn't any change that will magically make you good.. I know how about you complain about the game not freaking working. How the "performance fixes" have done nothing but make the game even more unplayable.. [snip]

[edited for bashing and baiting]

Feindrah

I thought people were coming to an agreement in this thread, but now it's back to this...

The way some of you think a valid criticism of something just means that people are just jealous of another persons 'skill' is.. kinda mind boggling. I'm not gonna say there aren't jealous people, but I would say a majority of us would like to come to some sort of balance between game play styles.

Madhatten512

No, the skill gap is fine.

graybeardII wrote: »

Ok first I never said any thing about abusing any mechanic weaving and ac are part of the game. And I struggle with them daily. Around 24k on a 3m dummey if your interested. But if I was to show up in a vBrF with a 35k dps and a heavy attack rotation I'd be kicked after the first boss even if my dps was sufficient and you know it (oops that came out kinda harsh sorry) but there it is. As you said vet dungens can be done with less dps but theres (so much) emphases put on high dps that if your not flawless your not wanted even by guildys. The question was asked if I thought the gap is to big and I do.You say its easy to make 30 to 45k dps maybe for you who has 2 working hands Im not asking to all of a sudden be doing top dps,doing speed runs and hm no death that's not realistic im aking for the gap to close just enough for people like me to be wanted in vet runs not thought of as a flower picker.Oh and I could give a rip about leader boards and skins and weather or not your better than me my interest is making friends having fun runing the more challenging not the most challenging content and as stated before learning the dungon machines where Imo the real skill (should) lay not weather or not you can do 80k dps. Then maybe topics like this wouldn't get so hostile and the dungen finder would run a little more smothly

I don't have a problem with them making other playstyles viable options for dps.. I don't like the "lowering the skill gap" verbiage its insane, and if I was you insulting. I don't have a problem with them adjusting heavy attack damage to make heavy attack builds a viable option. "lowering the skill gap" to me just says we are gonna go ahead and dumb this down so more.. I'm sorry but you cant balance a game around your lowest tier player base it just doesn't work.

I also don't know who your friends are, but ive never kicked a friend or guildmate because he was doing an off meta rotation. If your hitting 24k your clearing almost if not all vet dungeon content. I think you may just need to run with nicer people. I don't disagree that the game lack viable alternatives to light attack roations in pve, but I mean stam plar can hit 80k on a raid dummy with just light attacks and jabs. They have already dumbed down rotations so far from what they where..

I'm a PVP main so I really don't care about PVE rotations that much. From a pvp perspective there proposed changes to "lower the skill gap" will do the exact opposite I promise you this.. The people who can properly weave and are knowledgeable enough to take advantage of the heavy attack damage will destroy the people ZOS are trying to protect.. Again I want to say I am all for changes that give viable alternative to playstyle and dps rotations, but "lowering the skill" gap in a combat game is dumb its supposed to take skill, and practice. Everything shouldn't be handed to people. I worked hard to get good at this game. I practice to get they way. I should now be punished for it because some people just don't want to, but still want to be competitive.. This isn't T ball everyone does not get a trophy just for showing up.

eso_lags

No, the skill gap is fine.

idk wrote: »

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

How much more do you want ESO to be dumbed down, Cx??

So you want a competitive game that is not competitive. Plus, you’re upset that people who have played the game longer than you and bothered to get better, are better than you

Seems like you just want people to punished with a boring combat system for being good at a game.

Changing LA/basic attacks is not really dumbing down the game. We did not see it as a great change to combat when Zos buffed LAs back in Morrowind. Heck, top raiders that adjusted to the change just fine thought the change back then was a dumb idea. Just being real about it.

Personally I dont think the the changes look that bad. If zos can find a way to give slower heavy attack builds a bit more damage, while keeping the more fast paced intricate play style builds on top, then fine. I'm just confused why people are so on board with the post that zos made, and why more people dont see the problem with it.

There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible. Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP.

I mean idk how anyone could read this and not be concerned. I guess if you zerg in pvp, or are a low apm player in pve, then I could understand. But even still why would anyone agree with "the current system rewards people who try harder, play faster, and play more efficiently, so lets make it easier for those who dont". Because thats pretty much what that post says.

The people who think its just button mashing are just uninformed. Try it and see how it goes. Its just excuse making. Any game you play for a long time will give you muscle memory and reflexes to certain situations. It is not, not, a bad thing.

And so many people are just thinking from a pve perspective, what about pvp? The more zos slows down combat the more they make it easier for players to not improve and do better. Its sad more than anything that this is what they think of people, that their expectations are so low. Its not that hard.

Septimus_Magna

Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressed

The skill gap is too big, this is not caused by fast reflexes but by a lack of knowledge and practice.

Lets forget perfect weaving for a second, how many casual players have a rotation with a good up-time for the abilities and no sustain issues? Even if you miss half of your light attacks you can still do decent dps by placing a couple dots plus your spammable.

Weaving is mostly optimizing dps, maybe good players get in a couple more LA+spammable but thats not the deciding factor. Using the right abilities at the right time, using the correct consumables and sustaining the rotation are much more important factors. All these things can be learned without having fast reflexes.

For example, if you see a DD spamming snipe or crystal frags without placing dots its clear that this player doesnt understand what a rotation is or how dps works. The dps will simply be avarage dmg/cast time, placing dots will increase dps while doing something else. So its mostly a skill gap caused by a lack of knowledge and practice. Doing decent dps is not hard if you know what to do and weaving also gets easy with a little practice.

sergiok

graybeardII wrote: »

Ok first I never said any thing about abusing any mechanic weaving and ac are part of the game. And I struggle with them daily. Around 24k on a 3m dummey if your interested. But if I was to show up in a vBrF with a 35k dps and a heavy attack rotation I'd be kicked after the first boss even if my dps was sufficient and you know it (oops that came out kinda harsh sorry) but there it is. As you said vet dungens can be done with less dps but theres (so much) emphases put on high dps that if your not flawless your not wanted even by guildys. The question was asked if I thought the gap is to big and I do.You say its easy to make 30 to 45k dps maybe for you who has 2 working hands Im not asking to all of a sudden be doing top dps,doing speed runs and hm no death that's not realistic im aking for the gap to close just enough for people like me to be wanted in vet runs not thought of as a flower picker.Oh and I could give a rip about leader boards and skins and weather or not your better than me my interest is making friends having fun runing the more challenging not the most challenging content and as stated before learning the dungon machines where Imo the real skill (should) lay not weather or not you can do 80k dps. Then maybe topics like this wouldn't get so hostile and the dungen finder would run a little more smothly

Just git gud?

LiquidPony

No, the skill gap is fine.

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The skill gap is too big, this is not caused by fast reflexes but by a lack of knowledge and practice.

Lets forget perfect weaving for a second, how many casual players have a rotation with a good up-time for the abilities and no sustain issues? Even if you miss half of your light attacks you can still do decent dps by placing a couple dots plus your spammable.

Weaving is mostly optimizing dps, maybe good players get in a couple more LA+spammable but thats not the deciding factor. Using the right abilities at the right time, using the correct consumables and sustaining the rotation are much more important factors. All these things can be learned without having fast reflexes.

For example, if you see a DD spamming snipe or crystal frags without placing dots its clear that this player doesnt understand what a rotation is or how dps works. The dps will simply be avarage dmg/cast time, placing dots will increase dps while doing something else. So its mostly a skill gap caused by a lack of knowledge and practice. Doing decent dps is not hard if you know what to do and weaving also gets easy with a little practice.

Agreed.

The "skill gap" largely exists because of the knowledge gap.

I saw a post on /r/elderscrollsonline the other day. Someone wanting to know why they were doing 30k DPS less than the people they saw on YouTube when their "rotation is good" and their "weaving is good" and they have "all the gear exactly right".

Of course it turns out that none of those statements were really true. The "good" rotation was "well I didn't want to use those skills so I just left them out", and the "good" weaving was "well I miss quite a few light attacks and I don't barswap cancel anything" and the "all the gear exactly right" was ... enough health enchants on the armor to reach 18k health using Lavafoot food on a stamblade.

There's just so much to unpack. Explaining why LAs are important, especially on a nightblade. The importance of off-resource skills for sustain. The importance of weapon skills like Rending Slashes to proc enchants and poisons. The amount of time saved by swap canceling and the "proper" way to weave and cancel the rotation reset on stam. The importance of not over-sustaining. The massive DPS difference made by missing out on 5k max stamina. How to map out the rotation into execute. Blah blah blah.

And you know what? I'm totally fine with all that!

The "skill gap" isn't so much a direct result of LA weaving as it is a direct result of the desire to improve, which involves a lot of learning and experimenting where you inevitably pick up LA weaving along the way. LA weaving is just an artifact of skilled play, it isn't the primary driver.

JKorr

colossalvoids wrote: »

If you're trying to push your opinions this way just make one post and not myriads of not well though out polls.

The only way Knowledge posts is by making myriads of not-well-thought-out-polls biased to suit his opinion. Or he's subtly trolling. Hard to tell in many cases.But following past history in any case.

Everest_Lionheart

No, the skill gap is fine.

I put a suggestion on another one of these polls. (why are there so many polls saying the same thing anyway?)

Rather than address the “skill gap” why not introduce another method to play that is more methodical and can offer players another avenue to unlocking better damage numbers that are on par (not superior) to the weaving/AC play style that appears on the outside to be the only “viable” way to compete in ESO.

How about like this: A combo meter of sorts.

Implement a small incremental bonus for allowing attack/skill animations to complete. Say something like 1-3% increments with a maximum stack up to 10%. First 3 full animations get a modest 1% each, next 2 get 2% each and the final (6th) skill gets 3% hitting the cap of 10% bonus damage. Interrupting the animation ticks the counter back by 1. Interrupting 2 in a row resets the bonus to zero. Bar swap = pause counter provided the previous animation completed.

You would still leave weaving and AC for those that want to play that way.

This way you put methodical thought out combat against fast and furious combat. Or you have to possibility to mix the two of you really have the skills. You could build up your combo and release an ultimate with a 10% bonus buff and then get a quick weave to finish off to opponent. Or you could wear your opponent down and then build a sufficient combo to finish them off. You could mix and match and come up with more viable options for all players.

Speed vs Strategy.

BXR_Lonestar

Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.

I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.

IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.

Lysette

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.

I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.

IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.

It is a good suggestion - but now you will be lynched verbally - just wait for it to come.

A_Silverius

No, the skill gap is fine.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.

This right here even though I'd say that it isn't too hard to learn weaving and animation cancel. It's why new players have a hard time getting into ESO and why my entire guild of friends stopped playing after 3 weeks. At least I get to keep the guild bank though, so I guess I could call it a "feature" in that regard.

Sanguinor2

No, the skill gap is fine.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.

I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.

IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.

It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?

Lysette

A_Silverius wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.

This right here even though I'd say that it isn't too hard to learn weaving and animation cancel. It's why new players have a hard time getting into ESO and why my entire guild of friends stopped playing after 3 weeks. At least I get to keep the guild bank though, so I guess I could call it a "feature" in that regard.

That is about how I got to my "private" guild as well - lol.

Feindrah

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?

Er- I don't think they are necessarily suggesting that those that are executing their build better gets penalized, because IMO they should be rewarded for doing it flawlessly with more DPS, sustain, etc. Instead I think their point is that those that can do the mechanics well/flawlessly should also be rewarded even if they don't weave.

Right now we have a combat system that is only rewarding a certain playstyle. Which I felt wasn't always the case in the past.

relentless_turnip

No, the skill gap is fine.

Lysette wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.

I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.

IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.

It is a good suggestion - but now you will be lynched verbally - just wait for it to come.

I work 50 - 70 hours a week have a wife and 3 young children. I probably play 8 - 12 hours a week if I am lucky.
I mainly PVP... though I don't think the dedication to "git gud" is any less so.
I do agree with you that mechanics should be more important than DPS, but in most of the content it is.
Though it can be bypassed with overwhelming DPS in that same content.

What do you mean remove animation cancelling though? I am not trying to argue, but i often find this is confused for light attack weaving.
If they removed animation cancelling you wouldn't be able to roll dodge mid skill or block... is this what you want removed?
A lot of the mechanics require you to cancel your animation with a block, dodge or a bar swap.

Did you want to participate in trials? I am confused in that regard as well, because you don't need to light attack weave to participate in any other content, but you do need to be able to block and dodge at the right time.
If you want to PVP it helps, but not massively. Also it takes about 30 seconds to learn and then just improve by always doing it when you grind. <light attack - skill> that is all, block cancelling is basically not a thing any more and would only add a small amount to your DPS in a flawless rotation.

A rotation in PVE or executing combo's in PVP takes longer to master, but a skill gap needs to exist to hold a long term player base and keep the interest of a variety of players. I can completely sympathise with little time to play, but not changing the game for everyone to suit a few.

tmbrinks

No, the skill gap is fine.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.

I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.

IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.

What content are you referring to that you can't complete? Godslayer is the only thing that comes to mind that you would even conceivably HAVE to use AC to complete.

vMoL HM was done back when "good" dps was 30k on the fight. They did mechanics. Yes, more DPS make it easier, but to say it can't be done is disingenuous. You can now do 30k just by holding down your left mouse button.

You are insinuating that those that can do AC/LA weaving don't have full time jobs, don't work. That's patently a lie, and an insult.

Just to recap. There MIGHT be 1 title, Godslayer, that might REQUIRE the use of AC to complete. If you're talking about completeness of the game. That's worth 100 achievement points. (50 for Godslayer of Sunspire, and 50 for Sunspire Dragonbreak, which requires the Godslayer). 100 out of 40,365 possible points (100/40365 is 0.2477%)

0.2477% of the game MIGHT be inaccessible to you... and you want to completely change how combat works in the game.

Just to recap: A build that literally requires you to hold down a mouse button and do mechanics will allow you to do 99.7523% of this game. It's not a game problem that keeps people from accomplishing things. It's a lack of effort, a lack of willpower, to even attempt to improve yourself and a "I want it all, and I want it now attitude, but without the work"

Sanguinor2

No, the skill gap is fine.

Feindrah wrote: »

Er- I don't think they are necessarily suggesting that those that are executing their build better gets penalized, because IMO they should be rewarded for doing it flawlessly with more DPS, sustain, etc. Instead I think their point is that those that can do the mechanics well/flawlessly should also be rewarded even if they don't weave.

Right now we have a combat system that is only rewarding a certain playstyle. Which I felt wasn't always the case in the past.

Quote literally says that someone with the same race/class/build as someone should do the same dps.
Edit: Also those that do mechanics well get rewarded. They dont die so they can Keep on dpsing and dont have to rez someone or have to dodgeroll spam because tank died etc.

L_Nici

No, the skill gap is fine.

To close the "skillgap" would be easy. Just get good.
There is nothing special to animation cancel or anything, every single person could learn that in 1 afternoon.
Maybe you should use your time to learn it instead of complaining how unfair it would be that some people are better. If you want a fair combat fine then take skyrims system, just smash light or heavy attack and remove skills, there is your closed Skillgap.

Lysette

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.

I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.

IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.

It is a good suggestion - but now you will be lynched verbally - just wait for it to come.

I work 50 - 70 hours a week have a wife and 3 young children. I probably play 8 - 12 hours a week if I am lucky.
I mainly PVP... though I don't think the dedication to "git gud" is any less so.
I do agree with you that mechanics should be more important than DPS, but in most of the content it is.
Though it can be bypassed with overwhelming DPS in that same content.

What do you mean remove animation cancelling though? I am not trying to argue, but i often find this is confused for light attack weaving.
If they removed animation cancelling you wouldn't be able to roll dodge mid skill or block... is this what you want removed?
A lot of the mechanics require you to cancel your animation with a block, dodge or a bar swap.

Did you want to participate in trials? I am confused in that regard as well, because you don't need to light attack weave to participate in any other content, but you do need to be able to block and dodge at the right time.
If you want to PVP it helps, but not massively. Also it takes about 30 seconds to learn and then just improve by always doing it when you grind. <light attack - skill> that is all, block cancelling is basically not a thing any more and would only add a small amount to your DPS in a flawless rotation.

A rotation in PVE or executing combo's in PVP takes longer to master, but a skill gap needs to exist to hold a long term player base and keep the interest of a variety of players. I can completely sympathise with little time to play, but not changing the game for everyone to suit a few.

You picked the wrong person - I'm neither for nor against removing of animation cancelling. I do it myself, when I want to kill something quickly - and sometimes I just let the animations play out (simply because it looks better) and slow down and see if my character can stand it. As I just do PvE content, there is most of the time no need for me to weave, but due to my ping I have a problem to get out of red in time, so I might just do it to take the enemy down before the effect in red can take place.

My latency is basically nearly always in red (333+) and i have to slow down to not get too much out of sync of what i see on screen and what the server's reality is. i guess with the changes to resource regain, i will at least have a better chance to regain resources, as it is pretty hard to stay on target with a high ping - what you see is not what you get with high ping.

And pvp is out of question anyway with moving targets and a high ping - when i would see a person in front of me, that might have been the server's reality half or a full second before and when the server will check my attack, this is then about 1.5 seconds after the fact - I cannot expect my target to still be there by then - like it is, i could not even pvp even if I would want to - what i don't, I just don't like the attitude I can see here in the forums of those playing pvp.

DukeDiewalker

No, the skill gap is fine.

With Harrowstorm the skill gap got crushed.
The game feels not only terrible to play but there is also no reason to play because every ***** who apparantly plays with their face glued to the keyboard can kill you with help of "some" friends, while an actual good player who learned how to play the game, can't even use block cancelling anymore and everything feels slow and unresponsive. Which of course doesn't matter for the guys with their faces glued to the keyboard because they are simply more people. What a surprise.

I can only imagine this will get even worse with the proposed (awful) changes to light and heavy attacks.
this is purely from a Pvp perspective but can be easily transferred to Pve.

I hate to say the phrase but if anyone thinks the skillgap was too big: Learn 2 Play ... or stick to the casual parts of the game, of which there is plenty.

relentless_turnip

No, the skill gap is fine.

Lysette wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.

I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.

IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.

It is a good suggestion - but now you will be lynched verbally - just wait for it to come.

I work 50 - 70 hours a week have a wife and 3 young children. I probably play 8 - 12 hours a week if I am lucky.
I mainly PVP... though I don't think the dedication to "git gud" is any less so.
I do agree with you that mechanics should be more important than DPS, but in most of the content it is.
Though it can be bypassed with overwhelming DPS in that same content.

What do you mean remove animation cancelling though? I am not trying to argue, but i often find this is confused for light attack weaving.
If they removed animation cancelling you wouldn't be able to roll dodge mid skill or block... is this what you want removed?
A lot of the mechanics require you to cancel your animation with a block, dodge or a bar swap.

Did you want to participate in trials? I am confused in that regard as well, because you don't need to light attack weave to participate in any other content, but you do need to be able to block and dodge at the right time.
If you want to PVP it helps, but not massively. Also it takes about 30 seconds to learn and then just improve by always doing it when you grind. <light attack - skill> that is all, block cancelling is basically not a thing any more and would only add a small amount to your DPS in a flawless rotation.

A rotation in PVE or executing combo's in PVP takes longer to master, but a skill gap needs to exist to hold a long term player base and keep the interest of a variety of players. I can completely sympathise with little time to play, but not changing the game for everyone to suit a few.

You picked the wrong person - I'm neither for nor against removing of animation cancelling. I do it myself, when I want to kill something quickly - and sometimes I just let the animations play out (simply because it looks better) and slow down and see if my character can stand it. As I just do PvE content, there is most of the time no need for me to weave, but due to my ping I have a problem to get out of red in time, so I might just do it to take the enemy down before the effect in red can take place.

My latency is basically nearly always in red (333+) and i have to slow down to not get too much out of sync of what i see on screen and what the server's reality is. i guess with the changes to resource regain, i will at least have a better chance to regain resources, as it is pretty hard to stay on target with a high ping - what you see is not what you get with high ping.

I meant to address both of you as you were in agreement with the post you quoted.
condolences for your *** ping... must be annoying.

Feindrah

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Quote literally says that someone with the same race/class/build as someone should do the same dps.
Edit: Also those that do mechanics well get rewarded. They dont die so they can Keep on dpsing and dont have to rez someone or have to dodgeroll spam because tank died etc.

I took them saying doing the same DPS as being very similar, not exact. There will always be people that can do a rotation faster or smoother. That's just how I took it though.

I don't really think it's a reward to not die and keep DPS'ing for knowing mechanics when the chance is that you might not have the DPS to finish in the first place if you're the only one left standing and having to take waaay longer or start all over. That's just personally how I feel though. Maybe others like that. IDK.

Cryptical

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Actually, you almost certainly could help but feel that, you just choose not to.

Technically, it was an exploit of an unintended mechanic, which ZOS chose to "embrace", rather than find a proper fix for.

By "exploit", in this context, I don't mean the people doing it were doing something wrong.

Just that they had (innocently) stumbled across a (pretty obvious) loophole in the combat design and were, inevitably, using it to their (fairly massive) advantage.

Which means they were exploiting it...

Just because people call it what it is - an "exploit" - doesn't mean they think it's a nefarious exploit, that should have seen people using it be punished, or anything.

They're just, accurately, calling it what it, technically, is.

They Arent. Being a feature the devs want us to use and being an exploit is mutually exclusive, it cannot be one and the other. And the devs want us to use it.

The devs want people to be able to cancel an action in order to get their shield up to block sudden incoming damage.

The devs want people to do more than skill-skill-skill-skill over and over... they want people to mix in some attacks with the weapon in their hand.

The devs did NOT want people to be able to crowbar more *damage* into a length of time than the attack animations would otherwise allow. That is, if a skill animation took 1.1 seconds and a light attack animation takes .2 seconds then common addition would have both together taking 1.3 seconds.... the devs did NOT WANT people to manipulate the need for sudden blocking into being able to crowbar 1.3 seconds worth of damage into a 0.8 second duration.

Best case scenario would have been for a mandatory animation length to have been applied to blocking and to light attacks, so that people could still suddenly block and still weave other attacks into their skill rotation while detailing people’s attempts to shrink the amount of time some attacks take.

It’s a balance issue. Skills and attacks are balanced according to how long they take to perform. If that duration can be changed through some sort of cancellation then the balance of the skill itself is being changed.

Too bad they didn’t just do the simple thing and implement a longer duration for a tap of block or roll dodge or LA. That would have nipped the whole debacle in the bud while still preserving snappy combat reactions.