The skill gap is too great due to twitch-based reflex type combat like weaving and animation cancel.

D0PAMINE

No, the skill gap is fine.

Vaoh wrote: »

Congrats ZOS. This is what happens when you cater to complainers. Three years ago these conversations didn’t happen - we’d discuss Sorc vs NB, actual balance stuff, etc.

You actually catered to the complainers and let down everyone who enjoyed ESO’s formerly fast-paced, fluid combat. The consequence - a divide in the community which has caused many long-time players to quit (rip pvp) and all sorts of ridiculous complaints to arise.

“ESO’s combat should’ve been like everyone else.” This game is 6 years old. If you do that it will cause the majority of longtime loyal players quit, as well as any other players who enjoyed the combat. However, if you don’t cater you will never hear the end of these complaints which are being popularized by players who don’t fully understand the implications of changes they as for. It’s a lose-lose and no matter what happens, the game has become exponentially worse over the years besides for lore lol.

Its unfortunate. ESO is such a great game but the Dev team is thought of very poorly by its playerbase and I have to agree it’s for good reason. The only game I have ever played where most players dread to release of patch notes.

Well said Vaoh.

BlueRaven

Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressed

I don’t under stand why people think that animation canceling was intended. Do they think the people designing the combat animations did not read their memos about combat speed? Do they think the game director intended janky looking combat? Like intentionally making it look like a mistake, by design?



It was obviously not intended just by how stupid it looks. If it was intended, it would look way more polished.

Sometimes I wish the designers stuck to their guns and kept mods that tracked dps out of the game. You can see how much poison it has inflicted into the player base. Having all the players not worry about how much dps they do compared to others would have maintained a much healthier attitude in the player base.

StaticWave

No, the skill gap is fine.

BlueRaven wrote: »

I don’t under stand why people think that animation canceling was intended. Do they think the people designing the combat animations did not read their memos about combat speed? Do they think the game director intended janky looking combat? Like intentionally making it look like a mistake, by design?



It was obviously not intended just by how stupid it looks. If it was intended, it would look way more polished.

Sometimes I wish the designers stuck to their guns and kept mods that tracked dps out of the game. You can see how much poison it has inflicted into the player base. Having all the players not worry about how much dps they do compared to others would have maintained a much healthier attitude in the player base.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.

Something the Devs want us to use cannot be an exploit.

The devs make mistakes regularly in all aspects of the game. Heck even the announcements have mistakes.
Allowing animation cancelling is just their biggest one and they've been paying for it ever since.
The proposed change to Light Attack hints at regret combined with silence due to their complicity.

Overwatch has animation canceling which works identical to ESO. Even in pure fps games like call of duty has animation canceling. If you think ESO is the only game that has animation canceling you are badly mistaken lmao.

Since you are so bent out of shape on a simple game mechanic, whenever you play don't even attempt to cancel any skill with block/dodge/barswap. Also don't attempt to cancel a light attack animation either. Come back to me and tell me how far you can get in vma or any harder content.

Sanguinor2

No, the skill gap is fine.

BlueRaven wrote: »

I don’t under stand why people think that animation canceling was intended. Do they think the people designing the combat animations did not read their memos about combat speed? Do they think the game director intended janky looking combat? Like intentionally making it look like a mistake, by design?



It was obviously not intended just by how stupid it looks. If it was intended, it would look way more polished.

Sometimes I wish the designers stuck to their guns and kept mods that tracked dps out of the game. You can see how much poison it has inflicted into the player base. Having all the players not worry about how much dps they do compared to others would have maintained a much healthier attitude in the player base.

Perfectly believable. Much more believable than a whole dev Team not seeing the issue in releasing a multiplayer game with PvP without any sort of cheat protection whatsoever. Which they did by the way.
And Im Pretty sure that being able to cancel whatever you are doing to block, dodge or weapon swap was intended from the start.

tmbrinks

No, the skill gap is fine.

BlueRaven wrote: »

I don’t under stand why people think that animation canceling was intended. Do they think the people designing the combat animations did not read their memos about combat speed? Do they think the game director intended janky looking combat? Like intentionally making it look like a mistake, by design?



It was obviously not intended just by how stupid it looks. If it was intended, it would look way more polished.

Sometimes I wish the designers stuck to their guns and kept mods that tracked dps out of the game. You can see how much poison it has inflicted into the player base. Having all the players not worry about how much dps they do compared to others would have maintained a much healthier attitude in the player base.

funny how each time people post from the anti-AC crowd, it seems there's a different reason.

This is the first time I've heard the "It'd be more polished if it was intended" shtick

I give them kudos for creativity though, it must to tough to keep on coming up with reasons when they are constantly disproven.

I imagine flat-earth society meetings are the same way... "what new way can we use to describe this, since last week attempt #2453 was disproven"

Jeremy

Wihuri wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Maybe. But this weaving/animation canceling thing has been an issue for years now. It would be worth it to add an auto attack just so that can end. Then everyone can see for themselves whether it was a significant factor or not. So either way, it would settle that particular debate and spare the game further (and damaging) changes to fix this problem, whether real or imaginary.

Except it's not an issue. The fact that you can choose to heavy attack or light attack is a choice made by the player. Auto attack would not work in this game. Go play games that have auto attack if you want it. It's just not ESO.

Whether you think it's an issue or not isn't the point.

The point is the developers think it is - and ultimately that's what matters more than what you or I may think. So it is an issue whether you or I or anyone else on this forum choose to accept it.

And if I had to choose between adding an auto attack and then implementing these crappy changes on the PTS - I vouch for a adding an auto attack, or at the least the option to have one if they so choose. You can continue to manually weave if you like - players who can't weave for what ever reason can turn their auto attack on - and then this problem is finally fixed and no more stupid changes are put into the game to compensate. It's a win/win situation and why anyone should be opposed to it I don't get.

Also: this is a forum where different opinions are expressed. If you don't like that - then maybe you are the one who should be going somewhere else.

Shantu

No, the skill gap is fine.

While I think the skill gap is reasonable, I still wouldn't mind if they brought up the floor a bit by adding some extra punch to HA builds. I'm not talking about making them comparable to higher DPS players now, but just something to make them more viable in end game content. I think it would be good for the game.

Jeremy

Juhasow wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Wihuri wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.

Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?

Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?

They designed the game wrong.

Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.

Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.

Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.

Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.

I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.

...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.

I just don't like messy, amateurish design.

I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.

Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.

In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.

It depends on the macros being used. There is no disadvantage in using short macros that combine light attacks with skills, and yes - a lot of players do use them. I've used similar macros on other games myself - and they are helpful and advantageous.

But anyway, macro use is a real problem on this game and me saying that shouldn't offend you or take away from your feeling of accomplishment on the "harder content". So there is no reason for you to become defensive here. I'm not accusing you personally of using macros.

Well if You assume that You'll create multiple macros for multiple situations that You'll be dynamically switching inbetween during combat then at certain point managing Your macros wil be harder then light attack weaving. As for making la+skill macro is ESO it is disadventageous. How do You know lot of players is using them in ESO ? Any data behind Your claim ? Because from what knowledge I was able to gather rarely anyone is in hardest game end content is even considering macros as usefull or adventageous. They're just making players weaker because someone who cannot click fast can't think fast and someone who can;t think fast will simply die when things will not go as planned. Making Yourself weaker deliberately will not get You accomplishments in hardest content in ESO. Don't compare using macros in other games to using them in ESO. Comparison like that is out of context.

Macros are not real problem. Barely anyone is using them and those who are using them and I know of are usually average players with or without them. People beliving that macros are massively used in ESO game end content are problem because they refuse to acknowledge real reasons of skill qap between players.

I can turn this around and say what's your data that macros aren't used by numerous players on this game?

What's your data?

I know macros are used on this game. I've spoken to players who use them directly. But if you want to pretend it's not a real thing on this game then be my guest. Just don't expect me to play along.

And why do you and others always tend to get so defensive when I talk about macros anyway? I just don't get it. I said people use macros - you even seem to admit they use macros (though we may quibble over how prevalent it is). Yet still you feel compelled to try and argue with me that players use macros on this game. Why? I don't honestly don't get it.

Sanguinor2

No, the skill gap is fine.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Is that an mmo? Well then, I would counter that example with basically every AAA game ever created.

Pretty sure it qualifies as massive multiplayer online game.
League of Legends also has Animation cancelling btw.

Jakx

I gave this a lot of thought. My first opinion on the changes were, like many, "wow literally catering to people who can't press buttons."

However, the more I thought about it. Yes, the skill gap in the game is big. We all agree there. My next thought is about how utterly awful it is to find pick up groups for things because the gap between somebody who understands the game/has a build is insane compared to people just sticking stuff on the bar and trying to RP Legolas with a bow. So it makes pugging so many dungeons problematic. I don't think that is healthy for the game either especially since the dungeons just keep getting harder.

So if there is a way to at least bring up the skill of bad players so that some of the content is more achievable in a pick up group environment, I don't think that's the worst. It's just hard to say if this is the right way to go about it.

BlueRaven

Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressed

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I don’t under stand why people think that animation canceling was intended. Do they think the people designing the combat animations did not read their memos about combat speed? Do they think the game director intended janky looking combat? Like intentionally making it look like a mistake, by design?



It was obviously not intended just by how stupid it looks. If it was intended, it would look way more polished.

Sometimes I wish the designers stuck to their guns and kept mods that tracked dps out of the game. You can see how much poison it has inflicted into the player base. Having all the players not worry about how much dps they do compared to others would have maintained a much healthier attitude in the player base.

Perfectly believable. Much more believable than a whole dev Team not seeing the issue in releasing a multiplayer game with PvP without any sort of cheat protection whatsoever. Which they did by the way.
And Im Pretty sure that being able to cancel whatever you are doing to block, dodge or weapon swap was intended from the start.

Yes, but it was not intended for it to be used to increase dps. Hence why it is often referred to as an exploit.

Sanguinor2

No, the skill gap is fine.

Jeremy wrote: »

I can turn this around and say what's your data that macros aren't used by numerous players on this game?

What's your data?

I know macros are used on this game. I've spoken to players who use them directly. But if you want to pretend it's not a thing on this game then be my guest. Just don't expect me to play along with

Also: why do you and others always tend to get so defensive when I talk about macros? It's very.... strange.

Because the generalization of endgame Players likely using macros is Pretty stupid. Also being indirectly accused of Breaking Tos without someone having anything even remotely close to backing that up beyond sweeping generalizations doesnt sit well with many People *shrug*.
Some endgame Player I know tried using a macro for the necro Siphon because its such an annoying ability to use, end result, doing it manually produced better results.
Macro usage might be a Thing. Doesnt mean its widespread. Or that endgame Players are using them.

tmbrinks

No, the skill gap is fine.

Jeremy wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Wihuri wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.

Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?

Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?

They designed the game wrong.

Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.

Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.

Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.

Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.

I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.

...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.

I just don't like messy, amateurish design.

I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.

Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.

In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.

It depends on the macros being used. There is no disadvantage in using short macros that combine light attacks with skills, and yes - a lot of players do use them. I've used similar macros on other games myself - and they are helpful and advantageous.

But anyway, macro use is a real problem on this game and me saying that shouldn't offend you or take away from your feeling of accomplishment on the "harder content". So there is no reason for you to become defensive here. I'm not accusing you personally of using macros.

Well if You assume that You'll create multiple macros for multiple situations that You'll be dynamically switching inbetween during combat then at certain point managing Your macros wil be harder then light attack weaving. As for making la+skill macro is ESO it is disadventageous. How do You know lot of players is using them in ESO ? Any data behind Your claim ? Because from what knowledge I was able to gather rarely anyone is in hardest game end content is even considering macros as usefull or adventageous. They're just making players weaker because someone who cannot click fast can't think fast and someone who can;t think fast will simply die when things will not go as planned. Making Yourself weaker deliberately will not get You accomplishments in hardest content in ESO. Don't compare using macros in other games to using them in ESO. Comparison like that is out of context.

Macros are not real problem. Barely anyone is using them and those who are using them and I know of are usually average players with or without them. People beliving that macros are massively used in ESO game end content are problem because they refuse to acknowledge real reasons of skill qap between players.

I can turn this around and say what's your data that macros aren't used by numerous players on this game?

What's your data?

I know macros are used on this game. I've spoken to players who use them directly. But if you want to pretend it's not a real thing on this game then be my guest. Just don't expect me to play along.

And why do you and others always tend to get so defensive when I talk about macros anyway? I just don't get it. I said people use macros - you even seem to admit they use macros (though we may quibble over how prevalent it is). Yet still you feel compelled to try and argue with me that players use macros on this game. Why? I don't honestly don't get it.

If you're going to try and make a blanket statement about people cheating, the evidence has to come from your side.

The burden of proof is on the person trying to cast blame. The reverse, as you're stating is just bad science, bad policy, bad logic.

Imagine, having to prove yourself innocent, beyond a shadow of a doubt, in a court case to be exonerated of murder. You think we have a lot of false convictions now? yikes.

Jeremy

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I can turn this around and say what's your data that macros aren't used by numerous players on this game?

What's your data?

I know macros are used on this game. I've spoken to players who use them directly. But if you want to pretend it's not a thing on this game then be my guest. Just don't expect me to play along with

Also: why do you and others always tend to get so defensive when I talk about macros? It's very.... strange.

Because the generalization of endgame Players likely using macros is Pretty stupid. Also being indirectly accused of Breaking Tos without someone having anything even remotely close to backing that up beyond sweeping generalizations doesnt sit well with many People *shrug*.
Some endgame Player I know tried using a macro for the necro Siphon because its such an annoying ability to use, end result, doing it manually produced better results.
Macro usage might be a Thing. Doesnt mean its widespread. Or that endgame Players are using them.

I didn't generalize endgame players. I didn't even mention "endgame players".

I also went out of my way to tell that poster directly I wasn't accusing them of using macros and wasn't trying to belittle their accomplishments in "harder content"

So I don't know where that impression is even coming from. I know it's certainly not from anything I have said. People are way too touchy for some weird reason when the issue of macros comes up. I don't get it and your answer did not explain it.

Jeremy

tmbrinks wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Wihuri wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.

Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?

Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?

They designed the game wrong.

Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.

Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.

Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.

Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.

I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.

...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.

I just don't like messy, amateurish design.

I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.

Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.

In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.

It depends on the macros being used. There is no disadvantage in using short macros that combine light attacks with skills, and yes - a lot of players do use them. I've used similar macros on other games myself - and they are helpful and advantageous.

But anyway, macro use is a real problem on this game and me saying that shouldn't offend you or take away from your feeling of accomplishment on the "harder content". So there is no reason for you to become defensive here. I'm not accusing you personally of using macros.

Well if You assume that You'll create multiple macros for multiple situations that You'll be dynamically switching inbetween during combat then at certain point managing Your macros wil be harder then light attack weaving. As for making la+skill macro is ESO it is disadventageous. How do You know lot of players is using them in ESO ? Any data behind Your claim ? Because from what knowledge I was able to gather rarely anyone is in hardest game end content is even considering macros as usefull or adventageous. They're just making players weaker because someone who cannot click fast can't think fast and someone who can;t think fast will simply die when things will not go as planned. Making Yourself weaker deliberately will not get You accomplishments in hardest content in ESO. Don't compare using macros in other games to using them in ESO. Comparison like that is out of context.

Macros are not real problem. Barely anyone is using them and those who are using them and I know of are usually average players with or without them. People beliving that macros are massively used in ESO game end content are problem because they refuse to acknowledge real reasons of skill qap between players.

I can turn this around and say what's your data that macros aren't used by numerous players on this game?

What's your data?

I know macros are used on this game. I've spoken to players who use them directly. But if you want to pretend it's not a real thing on this game then be my guest. Just don't expect me to play along.

And why do you and others always tend to get so defensive when I talk about macros anyway? I just don't get it. I said people use macros - you even seem to admit they use macros (though we may quibble over how prevalent it is). Yet still you feel compelled to try and argue with me that players use macros on this game. Why? I don't honestly don't get it.

If you're going to try and make a blanket statement about people cheating, the evidence has to come from your side.

The burden of proof is on the person trying to cast blame. The reverse, as you're stating is just bad science, bad policy, bad logic.

Imagine, having to prove yourself innocent, beyond a shadow of a doubt, in a court case to be exonerated of murder. You think we have a lot of false convictions now? yikes.

No because I"m not trying to "prove" anything. This isn't a court of law. I already know people use macros on this game. The guy I was debating even admitted players use macros (we just differed on the prevalence of it). So there really isn't anything to prove anyway. Both of us already agree that players use macros.

There are people who use macros on this game. That's just the truth. And if you need someone to prove that to you, then that's on you. It's not my duty to convince you of something I already know to be true. So you can believe no one uses macros on this game if you like. That's really not something I'm concerned with. You can believe what ever you like.

Feindrah

I didn't vote in the poll because I don't think the skill gap is necessarily too big nor do I have a problem with skill gaps. I also don't have an issue with animation cancelling either, but the LA weaving has gone overboard in my opinion. If you don't do it that's a big chunk of DPS gone. For a year or so now the combat has been heavily focused on weaving to the point that a build without it does suffer. It would be nice if we could get to a combat place that allows either type of build to be a little closer in terms of DPS to one another.

It's personally too much on my joints. I've practiced and understand how to do it just fine but the constant spam can lock my joints up. I'm not old either.

I also don't like the insinuation that people that dislike weaving can't do mechanics... Like really?? Is that the stance we are going to take now?

Jeremy

Feindrah wrote: »

I didn't vote in the poll because I don't think the skill gap is necessarily too big nor do I have a problem with skill gaps. I also don't have an issue with animation cancelling either, but the LA weaving has gone overboard in my opinion. If you don't do it that's a big chunk of DPS gone. For a year or so now the combat has been heavily focused on weaving to the point that a build without it does suffer. It would be nice if we could get to a combat place that allows either type of build to be a little closer in terms of DPS to one another.

It's personally too much on my joints. I've practiced and understand how to do it just fine but the constant spam can lock my joints up. I'm not old either.

I also don't like the insinuation that people that dislike weaving can't do mechanics... Like really?? Is that the stance we are going to take now?

They're making it an even bigger chunk of the combat now with these new changes, because it's now the new de facto way to sustain your resources.

Now how that translates into supposedly making light attack weaving less of a factor is anyone's guess.

justaquickword

This is starting to remind me of the arguments over Brexit...

Sylvermynx

No, the skill gap is fine.

I can weave. It's not pretty, as I'm not young so I don't have the reflexes - but once I got somewhat better satellite connection, there was no excuse for not figuring it out. Of course, it probably looks like I'm button mashing.... but that's because of 750+ ms ping most of the time.

Not sure how this new combat setup will work for me, but if the answer is "not at all" I'll just do writs and housing I guess!

Jeremy

justaquickword wrote: »

This is starting to remind me of the arguments over Brexit...

In reminds me of it too, but in the sense that no one wants to compromise. It's either all the way in or all the way out. And that's probably why this is still an unresolved problem nearly a half decade later.

Which is why I'm sympathetic to the suggestions of the OP.

If they put in an optional auto attack, this would give players who can't or won't weave a competitive option to help "narrow the skill gap" (which was supposedly the goal of these awful changes). Players who enjoy manual weaving and want to keep doing it may still do so.

What's wrong with that?

tmbrinks

No, the skill gap is fine.

Jeremy wrote: »

justaquickword wrote: »

This is starting to remind me of the arguments over Brexit...

In reminds me of it too, but in the sense that no one wants to compromise. It's either all the way in or all the way out. And that's probably why this is still an unresolved problem nearly a half decade later.

Which is why I'm sympathetic to the suggestions of the OP.

If they put in an optional auto attack, this would give players who can't or won't weave a competitive option to help "narrow the skill gap" (which was supposedly the goal of these awful changes). Players who enjoy manual weaving and want to keep doing it may still do so.

What's wrong with that?

Is the "automated" attack going to do less damage than a normal LA? Otherwise who choose the dps loss?

LA are like 15% of dps (unless you're using a skill to specifically boost them, like Ele Weapon), that 15% doesn't account for the vast difference between "end-game" and "mid-tier"

Nerf LA damage by 30%. Boost skill damage by like 3%. Top tier people will pull the same DPS. mid-tier will gain dps. Sadly the LA spammers will lose dps.

Jeremy

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I can weave. It's not pretty, as I'm not young so I don't have the reflexes - but once I got somewhat better satellite connection, there was no excuse for not figuring it out. Of course, it probably looks like I'm button mashing.... but that's because of 750+ ms ping most of the time.

Not sure how this new combat setup will work for me, but if the answer is "not at all" I'll just do writs and housing I guess!

I like weaving when I'm actually attacking a target as I do think it makes the combat more interesting. But I don't like having to weave while I'm playing defensively in between blocks, taunts, shields or heals. That is just plain annoying to me, which is why I detest these changes - or am expected to spam light attacks when I run out of resources. This does not compliment the game play in any way and just makes the combat feel clunky and ineffective.

That's mostly the reason I can't stand these changes. It's not because I have anything in particular against light attack weaving.

Sylvermynx

No, the skill gap is fine.

Jeremy wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I can weave. It's not pretty, as I'm not young so I don't have the reflexes - but once I got somewhat better satellite connection, there was no excuse for not figuring it out. Of course, it probably looks like I'm button mashing.... but that's because of 750+ ms ping most of the time.

Not sure how this new combat setup will work for me, but if the answer is "not at all" I'll just do writs and housing I guess!

I like weaving when I'm actually attacking a target as I do think it makes the combat more interesting. But I don't like having to weave while I'm playing defensively in between blocks, taunts, shields or heals. That is just plain annoying to me, which is why I detest these changes - or am expected to spam light attacks when I run out of resources. This does not compliment the game play in any way and just makes the combat feel clunky and ineffective.

That's mostly the reason I can't stand these changes. It's not because I have anything in particular against light attack weaving.

I wish I had the data to download the PTS. I'd really like to see what's coming....

Jeremy

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I can weave. It's not pretty, as I'm not young so I don't have the reflexes - but once I got somewhat better satellite connection, there was no excuse for not figuring it out. Of course, it probably looks like I'm button mashing.... but that's because of 750+ ms ping most of the time.

Not sure how this new combat setup will work for me, but if the answer is "not at all" I'll just do writs and housing I guess!

I like weaving when I'm actually attacking a target as I do think it makes the combat more interesting. But I don't like having to weave while I'm playing defensively in between blocks, taunts, shields or heals. That is just plain annoying to me, which is why I detest these changes - or am expected to spam light attacks when I run out of resources. This does not compliment the game play in any way and just makes the combat feel clunky and ineffective.

That's mostly the reason I can't stand these changes. It's not because I have anything in particular against light attack weaving.

I wish I had the data to download the PTS. I'd really like to see what's coming....

Yeah the changes are hard to judge by just reading about them, especially given how the developers describe them. When I first heard about the changes they sounded pretty good to me. But then I actually tried them out and my opinion changed fast.

rexagamemnon

Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressed

graybeardII wrote: »

The game is what it is but I dont thing because I dont have the finger dexterity of a concert pianist I shoud some how be excluded from content. These old hand have seen a lot of abuse in 59 years. And no I dont want to be cared I want to earn my gear and monster helm's. I came here to run dungens and learn the mechanics not have to worry about how much DPS im doing all the darn time.

What this guy said, except im 30, not 59.
There is a huge skill gap problem in the game, and many het kicked from groups all the time, its a serious problem, there is a lot of content excluded from people who do not have as high dps, or high hps or whatever, the skill gap in the game has created a massive elitist class. Its sad because i have seen much of these people who are high performers absolutely trash talk, belittle and demean those who are not as high performing and kick them from contents all the time, this needs to be addressed.

D0PAMINE

No, the skill gap is fine.

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I can weave. It's not pretty, as I'm not young so I don't have the reflexes - but once I got somewhat better satellite connection, there was no excuse for not figuring it out. Of course, it probably looks like I'm button mashing.... but that's because of 750+ ms ping most of the time.

Not sure how this new combat setup will work for me, but if the answer is "not at all" I'll just do writs and housing I guess!

It can be tricky to weave and cancel with high ping. As long as you just get those light attacks in between skills, then you're doing it right Alternatively, my friend who's around 24 has issues with his hands tiring out and chooses not to do them too much, focusing on weaving heavy attacks instead, does really well. He's a beast.

SickleCider

Skill gap is always going to exist in a game. As for this game, I don't think all of it can be attributed to LA weaving. Preparation, strategy, positioning, use of the environment, etc. A good rotation, sure, fine, but that only carries you when the circumstances are ideal and DPS isn't the only measure of a successful gamer.

tmbrinks

No, the skill gap is fine.

rexagamemnon wrote: »

graybeardII wrote: »

The game is what it is but I dont thing because I dont have the finger dexterity of a concert pianist I shoud some how be excluded from content. These old hand have seen a lot of abuse in 59 years. And no I dont want to be cared I want to earn my gear and monster helm's. I came here to run dungens and learn the mechanics not have to worry about how much DPS im doing all the darn time.

What this guy said, except im 30, not 59.
There is a huge skill gap problem in the game, and many het kicked from groups all the time, its a serious problem, there is a lot of content excluded from people who do not have as high dps, or high hps or whatever, the skill gap in the game has created a massive elitist class. Its sad because i have seen much of these people who are high performers absolutely trash talk, belittle and demean those who are not as high performing and kick them from contents all the time, this needs to be addressed.

what content are you exlcuded from because you can't LA weave?

The only things I can think of would like Godslayer progression, and maybe TTT/GH progression.

Everything else is obtainable with a non-LA weaving, no AC cancelling build!

Unknown_Redemption

Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressed

TheFM wrote: »

2 button presses per 1 second is far FAR from twitch based combat. That tic toc you hear on an old school clock. Thats how fast we weave. And that is not quick at all.

Youre forgetting about bar swapping and bashing. Oh, and general movement.

proteinexe

No, the skill gap is fine.

To be honest.. the only reason i'm voting this way is because I have multiple friends in the PvP community and they're very upset about the change, and I can see why.