Maintenance for the week of June 24:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – June 24
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – June 24
The skill gap is too great due to twitch-based reflex type combat like weaving and animation cancel.
-
ArcVelarian✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.If they *really* wanted to axe the animation cancelling skill gap, then they'd change it to where casting a new ability would cancel the animation of the previous. But that would be too simple.
Murphy's Law of PvP : If it can be abused and or exploited, it will be abused and or exploited.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »Sometimes I can't help but feel anti-animation canceling peeps are the people that can't get the rotations down, get flustered, claim it has to be an exploit to do this, and then rage about cheaters instead of just accepting that they suck.
Actually, you almost certainly could help but feel that, you just choose not to.
Technically, it was an exploit of an unintended mechanic, which ZOS chose to "embrace", rather than find a proper fix for.
By "exploit", in this context, I don't mean the people doing it were doing something wrong.
Just that they had (innocently) stumbled across a (pretty obvious) loophole in the combat design and were, inevitably, using it to their (fairly massive) advantage.
Which means they were exploiting it...
Just because people call it what it is - an "exploit" - doesn't mean they think it's a nefarious exploit, that should have seen people using it be punished, or anything.
They're just, accurately, calling it what it, technically, is.
To exploit =/= to use an exploit. "Exploit" used as a verb have slightly different context from using that word as a noun.
And technically light attack weaving was part of intended mechanic which ZoS acknowledged the day they discovered it's possible to do. Animation cancelling was always intended in ESO that's a fact. Light attack weaving was byproduct of it. Unexpected at the beggining but still it was not breaking rules of the combat that developers created in any way. ZoS was simply not expecting that people will take it to the next level and turn it into important part of the rotations but the moment they've realized it they were completly fine with it because it was not breaking any rule of combat they've made.
What kind of logic is that - if you intend something you do not discover it later on - you put it there to be there, but if you had to discover it, it was clearly not intended
Logic is pretty simple here. But to understand it You need to first know the difference between terms "animation cancelling" and "light attack weaving". Looks like You don't.
You just try to cover up your illogical statement - you cannot discover something what you intentionally put there.
I am trying to cover up the fact I cannot take You seriously if You don't see the difference between animation cnacelling and light attack weaving.
Then try to explain it in logical terms this time - to me that are just different terms for the same thing.
I already explained it. Problem is You simply don't understand it. You should read more carefully my 1st post You've responded to. Especially part saying "light attack weaving was part of intended mechanic". That intended mechanic was animation cancelling.
Well, ZeroXFF was so kind to put it in terms which can be understood - instead to just state that i cannot understand it. What you cannot understand though is, that you said it was intentional and still they had to discover it - this doesn't fit together, it is either or, not both. Either put there by intend, or discovered later on.
I've said that animation cancelling was intentional and part of it which is light attack weaving was discovered later. If You had issues to understand it that's not my fault. You should read things more carefully.
And you think they create nice animations just to get them cancelled later on - why have them at all then?
And You think light attack weaving means that Your character is standing still and performing no animations at all ? I would hardly compare cliping the end of each animation to completly cancelling it. Light attack weaving is not removing animations completly. Most impirtant components of each animations are played out. People using argument that weaving is removing animations are simply overdramatic.
As for other ways of cancelling animations well I would rather not see animation of something then die due to not dodge/block/bash/swap cancelling.
I guess you just misunderstand what I'm trying to say - that the whole AC thing was never intended, but ZOS just accepted it in the end by whatever reasons. It just doesn't look like this could be intended, it is a flaw which they just don't want to fix.Edited by Lysette on April 5, 2020 5:30AM3 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.
It depends on the macros being used. There is no disadvantage in using short macros that combine light attacks with skills, and yes - a lot of players do use them. I've used similar macros on other games myself - and they are helpful and advantageous.
But anyway, macro use is a real problem on this game and me saying that shouldn't offend you or take away from your feeling of accomplishment on the "harder content". So there is no reason for you to become defensive here. I'm not accusing you personally of using macros.
Well if You assume that You'll create multiple macros for multiple situations that You'll be dynamically switching inbetween during combat then at certain point managing Your macros wil be harder then light attack weaving. As for making la+skill macro is ESO it is disadventageous. How do You know lot of players is using them in ESO ? Any data behind Your claim ? Because from what knowledge I was able to gather rarely anyone is in hardest game end content is even considering macros as usefull or adventageous. They're just making players weaker because someone who cannot click fast can't think fast and someone who can;t think fast will simply die when things will not go as planned. Making Yourself weaker deliberately will not get You accomplishments in hardest content in ESO. Don't compare using macros in other games to using them in ESO. Comparison like that is out of context.
Macros are not real problem. Barely anyone is using them and those who are using them and I know of are usually average players with or without them. People beliving that macros are massively used in ESO game end content are problem because they refuse to acknowledge real reasons of skill qap between players.
How about traffic data from a github page of just ONE of those macros? This aims at people who are comfortable installing some unknown stuff from random github pages for this purpose. And this is completely ignoring those who just program their gaming mice to do the same thing.
And the date of the release of the first publically available version:
Wanna do the math and compare the result to the numbers on Steam?
You're funny guy/girl @ZeroXFF to provide "evidence" like that. I made some small research on the data You've provided
So that graph You've linked is showing the most popular macro on the github website. And it had only 131 unique visitors. Out of hundreds of thousands or even millions of people that played in ESO during last 2 years on PC only 131 visited that website. We don't even know how many people downloaded it but propably less then that. I couldn't even find other similar macros on that website and if there are other ones they have close to zero visitors. So if there isn't other more popular website then Your evidence is non existant. And even if other more popular websites with macros like that exist then we're still talking about some margin of people. Like seriously to make some number important when compared to hundereds of thoudands or even millions You need like 10% of that. 5% atleast. You are not even able to come close to 1% even if we would assume there is 100 more websites like that one. Basically You've proven my point that barely anyone is using macros in ESO.
Oh and btw steam numbers are just showing tiny fraction of players playing on PC from steam not all players playing on PC platform. Vast majority of the PC playerbase is not using steam. Seriously You're embarrasing Yourself with posts like the one above.Edited by Juhasow on April 5, 2020 5:33AM4 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedDusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.
It depends on the macros being used. There is no disadvantage in using short macros that combine light attacks with skills, and yes - a lot of players do use them. I've used similar macros on other games myself - and they are helpful and advantageous.
But anyway, macro use is a real problem on this game and me saying that shouldn't offend you or take away from your feeling of accomplishment on the "harder content". So there is no reason for you to become defensive here. I'm not accusing you personally of using macros.
Well if You assume that You'll create multiple macros for multiple situations that You'll be dynamically switching inbetween during combat then at certain point managing Your macros wil be harder then light attack weaving. As for making la+skill macro is ESO it is disadventageous. How do You know lot of players is using them in ESO ? Any data behind Your claim ? Because from what knowledge I was able to gather rarely anyone is in hardest game end content is even considering macros as usefull or adventageous. They're just making players weaker because someone who cannot click fast can't think fast and someone who can;t think fast will simply die when things will not go as planned. Making Yourself weaker deliberately will not get You accomplishments in hardest content in ESO. Don't compare using macros in other games to using them in ESO. Comparison like that is out of context.
Macros are not real problem. Barely anyone is using them and those who are using them and I know of are usually average players with or without them. People beliving that macros are massively used in ESO game end content are problem because they refuse to acknowledge real reasons of skill qap between players.
How about traffic data from a github page of just ONE of those macros? This aims at people who are comfortable installing some unknown stuff from random github pages for this purpose. And this is completely ignoring those who just program their gaming mice to do the same thing.
And the date of the release of the first publically available version:
Wanna do the math and compare the result to the numbers on Steam?
And what does that graph says actually ? Providing random screen without context or explaining it is hardy an evidence for anything. You could atleast provide some links. For now it's just random graph that looks like it's being shown just to sound smart.
I do provide context. If you don't believe me, too bad, that's about as far as I can go without violating the TOS. I will also provide links if ZOS says it's ok, but unless I see a green text reply or a PM from a mod saying so, you'll have to be creative about searching for the answers.
There is no context for this graph. I can't belive or not belive in some random graph. Explain it and then we can talk about my beliefs. And No You're not violating ToS in any shape or form by saying what that graph is showing. So unless You explain what You just linked You have literally zero arguments. Tell me atleast how many people according to that website You're using downloaded said macro and what that macro was doing.
I do not have the "download" data, I have the page hit data (which includes viewing of the source code, so potentially any of those hits can qualify as a download, since the relevant code is just one file). The graph shows hits over the past 14 days (05.04 is at 1 because it wasn't even 5 am when I made the screenshot). The numbers below show cumulative data for the time period. The green line (scale left) shows total page hits each day, the blue line (scale right) shows unique visitors each day.
I also know at least one other project where the author took a similar approach with the same language. There are also macros written in other languages out there. And this is only accounting for those people who are comfortable using github, so keep in mind this isn't everyone's forte. And as mentioned, no way to account for gaming mice which will make up a significantly bigger portion of the people using macros, because they are much more user-friendly.
As for the functions - this macro in particular intercepts your skill keybinds and instead does a mouse click+the skill keybind you just pressed. If you go too fast, it saves the input in a queue for the duration of the GCD and fires it when the GCD is over (emulating the behavior of ESO if you were to only use skills without LAs). It also checks whether you're holding the left or right mouse button when it tries to fire, so that it doesn't interfere with block casting or HA rotations (then it only fires the skill). The queue can be disabled or the GCD time adjusted if you think you can manually squeeze out a few more milliseconds but would like to still not have to press the unnecessary extra buttons. LA ratio with this macro at default settings is 0.97-0.98. It has a few more features (related to bar swaps and handling of some other edge cases), but I don't want to get too much into it.
It's basically giving you the experience you would have if LAs were put on the GCD and their effects rolled into skills... Or if we had a form of togglable auto-attacks that did not in any way depend on skill animations/cooldowns.
So basically it's a fix for ESO's controls - the way they should have worked from day 1.
Make a screenshot of this, because I'm pretty sure I said too much, and this will be deleted.5 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedDusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.
It depends on the macros being used. There is no disadvantage in using short macros that combine light attacks with skills, and yes - a lot of players do use them. I've used similar macros on other games myself - and they are helpful and advantageous.
But anyway, macro use is a real problem on this game and me saying that shouldn't offend you or take away from your feeling of accomplishment on the "harder content". So there is no reason for you to become defensive here. I'm not accusing you personally of using macros.
Well if You assume that You'll create multiple macros for multiple situations that You'll be dynamically switching inbetween during combat then at certain point managing Your macros wil be harder then light attack weaving. As for making la+skill macro is ESO it is disadventageous. How do You know lot of players is using them in ESO ? Any data behind Your claim ? Because from what knowledge I was able to gather rarely anyone is in hardest game end content is even considering macros as usefull or adventageous. They're just making players weaker because someone who cannot click fast can't think fast and someone who can;t think fast will simply die when things will not go as planned. Making Yourself weaker deliberately will not get You accomplishments in hardest content in ESO. Don't compare using macros in other games to using them in ESO. Comparison like that is out of context.
Macros are not real problem. Barely anyone is using them and those who are using them and I know of are usually average players with or without them. People beliving that macros are massively used in ESO game end content are problem because they refuse to acknowledge real reasons of skill qap between players.
How about traffic data from a github page of just ONE of those macros? This aims at people who are comfortable installing some unknown stuff from random github pages for this purpose. And this is completely ignoring those who just program their gaming mice to do the same thing.
And the date of the release of the first publically available version:
Wanna do the math and compare the result to the numbers on Steam?
You're funny guy/girl @ZeroXFF to provide "evidence" like that. I made some small research on the data You've provided
So that graph You've linked is showing the most popular macro on the github website. And it had only 131 unique visitors. Out of hundreds of thousands or even millions of people that played in ESO during last 2 years on PC only 131 visited that website. We don't even know how many people downloaded it but propably less then that. I couldn't even find other similar macros on that website and if there are other ones they have close to zero visitors. So if there isn't other more popular website then Your evidence is non existant. Basically You've proven my point that barely anyone is using macros in ESO.
Oh and btw steam numbers are just showing tiny fraction of players playing on PC from steam not all players playing on PC platform. Vast majority of the PC playerbase is not using steam. Seriously You're embarrasing Yourself with posts like the one above.
131 in the past 14 days, including today, which just started. Do the math.4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.
No, in "real content" macros are not a disadvantage, only bad macros are. There is a way of designing a game so that only bad (or very situational) macros are possible, but that is not the case with ESO. I'd explain more, but I'm not eager to be banned.
"I know it's happening" but.. "I'm not going to share". The mantra of those that exaggerate
TBF it is never a good idea to explain how to exploit and macros are an exploit.
Further, while I have never used a macro in combat, with the LA weave meta Zos created in Morrowind is really does push using macros. It is easy to set up a LA weave macro.
Let's be frank here. No one is actually going to admit they use macros but we all know the importance of hitting those LAs.3 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.
It depends on the macros being used. There is no disadvantage in using short macros that combine light attacks with skills, and yes - a lot of players do use them. I've used similar macros on other games myself - and they are helpful and advantageous.
But anyway, macro use is a real problem on this game and me saying that shouldn't offend you or take away from your feeling of accomplishment on the "harder content". So there is no reason for you to become defensive here. I'm not accusing you personally of using macros.
Well if You assume that You'll create multiple macros for multiple situations that You'll be dynamically switching inbetween during combat then at certain point managing Your macros wil be harder then light attack weaving. As for making la+skill macro is ESO it is disadventageous. How do You know lot of players is using them in ESO ? Any data behind Your claim ? Because from what knowledge I was able to gather rarely anyone is in hardest game end content is even considering macros as usefull or adventageous. They're just making players weaker because someone who cannot click fast can't think fast and someone who can;t think fast will simply die when things will not go as planned. Making Yourself weaker deliberately will not get You accomplishments in hardest content in ESO. Don't compare using macros in other games to using them in ESO. Comparison like that is out of context.
Macros are not real problem. Barely anyone is using them and those who are using them and I know of are usually average players with or without them. People beliving that macros are massively used in ESO game end content are problem because they refuse to acknowledge real reasons of skill qap between players.
How about traffic data from a github page of just ONE of those macros? This aims at people who are comfortable installing some unknown stuff from random github pages for this purpose. And this is completely ignoring those who just program their gaming mice to do the same thing.
And the date of the release of the first publically available version:
Wanna do the math and compare the result to the numbers on Steam?
You're funny guy/girl @ZeroXFF to provide "evidence" like that. I made some small research on the data You've provided
So that graph You've linked is showing the most popular macro on the github website. And it had only 131 unique visitors. Out of hundreds of thousands or even millions of people that played in ESO during last 2 years on PC only 131 visited that website. We don't even know how many people downloaded it but propably less then that. I couldn't even find other similar macros on that website and if there are other ones they have close to zero visitors. So if there isn't other more popular website then Your evidence is non existant. Basically You've proven my point that barely anyone is using macros in ESO.
Oh and btw steam numbers are just showing tiny fraction of players playing on PC from steam not all players playing on PC platform. Vast majority of the PC playerbase is not using steam. Seriously You're embarrasing Yourself with posts like the one above.
131 in the past 14 days, including today, which just started. Do the math.
Ahh sorry it's 2 weeks. My mistake Then it would be less then 7k visitors (not downloads) during 2 years if we would assume numbers were stable throughout all that time. Still very low. And that graph shows that lately there was influx of visits which suggest previously it was lower. Can You show graph for example from last month ? Because I've seen that macro being linked lately on forum which was most propably reason why it got way more attention and way more visits then usual. That fact makes that 7k going down to like maybe 2-3k visitors during 2 years. 2-3k visitors which means even less donwloads. That is not even 1% of people that played ESO on PC during that time so You're still proving my point. You would need dozens or even hundereds of websites like that to actually prove Your point. I doubt You could find few and on most of them popularity of said program would be even lower then on github.Edited by Juhasow on April 5, 2020 5:48AM0 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedDusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.
It depends on the macros being used. There is no disadvantage in using short macros that combine light attacks with skills, and yes - a lot of players do use them. I've used similar macros on other games myself - and they are helpful and advantageous.
But anyway, macro use is a real problem on this game and me saying that shouldn't offend you or take away from your feeling of accomplishment on the "harder content". So there is no reason for you to become defensive here. I'm not accusing you personally of using macros.
Well if You assume that You'll create multiple macros for multiple situations that You'll be dynamically switching inbetween during combat then at certain point managing Your macros wil be harder then light attack weaving. As for making la+skill macro is ESO it is disadventageous. How do You know lot of players is using them in ESO ? Any data behind Your claim ? Because from what knowledge I was able to gather rarely anyone is in hardest game end content is even considering macros as usefull or adventageous. They're just making players weaker because someone who cannot click fast can't think fast and someone who can;t think fast will simply die when things will not go as planned. Making Yourself weaker deliberately will not get You accomplishments in hardest content in ESO. Don't compare using macros in other games to using them in ESO. Comparison like that is out of context.
Macros are not real problem. Barely anyone is using them and those who are using them and I know of are usually average players with or without them. People beliving that macros are massively used in ESO game end content are problem because they refuse to acknowledge real reasons of skill qap between players.
How about traffic data from a github page of just ONE of those macros? This aims at people who are comfortable installing some unknown stuff from random github pages for this purpose. And this is completely ignoring those who just program their gaming mice to do the same thing.
And the date of the release of the first publically available version:
Wanna do the math and compare the result to the numbers on Steam?
You're funny guy/girl @ZeroXFF to provide "evidence" like that. I made some small research on the data You've provided
So that graph You've linked is showing the most popular macro on the github website. And it had only 131 unique visitors. Out of hundreds of thousands or even millions of people that played in ESO during last 2 years on PC only 131 visited that website. We don't even know how many people downloaded it but propably less then that. I couldn't even find other similar macros on that website and if there are other ones they have close to zero visitors. So if there isn't other more popular website then Your evidence is non existant. Basically You've proven my point that barely anyone is using macros in ESO.
Oh and btw steam numbers are just showing tiny fraction of players playing on PC from steam not all players playing on PC platform. Vast majority of the PC playerbase is not using steam. Seriously You're embarrasing Yourself with posts like the one above.
131 in the past 14 days, including today, which just started. Do the math.
Ahh sorry it's 2 weeks. My mistake Then it would be less then 7k unique visits (not downloads) during 2 years. Still very low. And that graph shows that lately there was influx of visits which suggest previously it was lower. Can You show graph for example from last month ? Because I've seen that macro being linked lately on forum which was most propably reason why it got way more attention and way more visits then usual. That fact makes that 7k going down to like maybe 2-3k visits during 2 years. 2-3k visits which means even less donwloads. That is not even 1% of people that played ESO on PC during that time so You're still proving my point.
I cannot do that, guthub does not provide older data. You'll just have to believe me when I tell you that within a month of the initial release it was already at about 5 unique visitors per day and in the past year stayed fairly stable at 10/day.
And like I said, this is a fraction of a fraction. Most people just use gaming mice for it.Edited by ZeroXFF on April 5, 2020 5:48AM2 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.
It depends on the macros being used. There is no disadvantage in using short macros that combine light attacks with skills, and yes - a lot of players do use them. I've used similar macros on other games myself - and they are helpful and advantageous.
But anyway, macro use is a real problem on this game and me saying that shouldn't offend you or take away from your feeling of accomplishment on the "harder content". So there is no reason for you to become defensive here. I'm not accusing you personally of using macros.
Well if You assume that You'll create multiple macros for multiple situations that You'll be dynamically switching inbetween during combat then at certain point managing Your macros wil be harder then light attack weaving. As for making la+skill macro is ESO it is disadventageous. How do You know lot of players is using them in ESO ? Any data behind Your claim ? Because from what knowledge I was able to gather rarely anyone is in hardest game end content is even considering macros as usefull or adventageous. They're just making players weaker because someone who cannot click fast can't think fast and someone who can;t think fast will simply die when things will not go as planned. Making Yourself weaker deliberately will not get You accomplishments in hardest content in ESO. Don't compare using macros in other games to using them in ESO. Comparison like that is out of context.
Macros are not real problem. Barely anyone is using them and those who are using them and I know of are usually average players with or without them. People beliving that macros are massively used in ESO game end content are problem because they refuse to acknowledge real reasons of skill qap between players.
How about traffic data from a github page of just ONE of those macros? This aims at people who are comfortable installing some unknown stuff from random github pages for this purpose. And this is completely ignoring those who just program their gaming mice to do the same thing.
And the date of the release of the first publically available version:
Wanna do the math and compare the result to the numbers on Steam?
You're funny guy/girl @ZeroXFF to provide "evidence" like that. I made some small research on the data You've provided
So that graph You've linked is showing the most popular macro on the github website. And it had only 131 unique visitors. Out of hundreds of thousands or even millions of people that played in ESO during last 2 years on PC only 131 visited that website. We don't even know how many people downloaded it but propably less then that. I couldn't even find other similar macros on that website and if there are other ones they have close to zero visitors. So if there isn't other more popular website then Your evidence is non existant. Basically You've proven my point that barely anyone is using macros in ESO.
Oh and btw steam numbers are just showing tiny fraction of players playing on PC from steam not all players playing on PC platform. Vast majority of the PC playerbase is not using steam. Seriously You're embarrasing Yourself with posts like the one above.
131 in the past 14 days, including today, which just started. Do the math.
Ahh sorry it's 2 weeks. My mistake Then it would be less then 7k unique visits (not downloads) during 2 years. Still very low. And that graph shows that lately there was influx of visits which suggest previously it was lower. Can You show graph for example from last month ? Because I've seen that macro being linked lately on forum which was most propably reason why it got way more attention and way more visits then usual. That fact makes that 7k going down to like maybe 2-3k visits during 2 years. 2-3k visits which means even less donwloads. That is not even 1% of people that played ESO on PC during that time so You're still proving my point.
I cannot do that, guthub does not provide older data. You'll just have to believe me when I tell you that within a month of the initial release it was already at about 5 unique visitors per day and in the past year stayed fairly stable at 10/day.
And like I said, this is a fraction of a fraction. Most people just use gaming mice for it.
So it's like I said. Overall amount of downloads will be very low maybe even less then 1k. And that is propably one of the more popular websites to find stuff like that. If we would assume that during last 2 years 1 million players in total played the game on PC servers (propably it was more) then it means 0,1% of them used macro from the website You've linked. You would need 10 more websites like that to make it 1%. There is still pretty long way from that to saying that macros are real issue in the game and that peoples are commonly using them. Really long way.3 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.
No, in "real content" macros are not a disadvantage, only bad macros are. There is a way of designing a game so that only bad (or very situational) macros are possible, but that is not the case with ESO. I'd explain more, but I'm not eager to be banned.
To really understand why macros are not that adventageous for high game end players in ESO You would have to first become one. And judging by quality of Your posts I think You're not.4 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »I don’t under stand why people think that animation canceling was intended. Do they think the people designing the combat animations did not read their memos about combat speed? Do they think the game director intended janky looking combat? Like intentionally making it look like a mistake, by design?
It was obviously not intended just by how stupid it looks. If it was intended, it would look way more polished.
Sometimes I wish the designers stuck to their guns and kept mods that tracked dps out of the game. You can see how much poison it has inflicted into the player base. Having all the players not worry about how much dps they do compared to others would have maintained a much healthier attitude in the player base.
Overwatch has animation canceling which works identical to ESO.
Is that an mmo? Well then, I would counter that example with basically every AAA game ever created.
But is nice to see that "The Pee Wee Herman crashing into a curb school of Visual Design" has at least one graduate.
What does being an mmo have to do with anything? The point is animation canceling is not a glitch and has existed in many online PvP games. It's not a new concept, and certainly not cheating/exploiting. The fact that you're so bent out of shape on a known mechanic makes you look no less than a newb.
I think you should actually spend more time learning how to play instead of making dumb sarcastic comments on the forums. You just make yourself look more of a fool
"What does being an mmo have to do with anything?"
I am sorry, are you on the wrong forums? Do you not know the game we are talking about?
Are we now talking about all video games in general or other games comparable with ESO? If we are talking about MMO-RPGs only then what does Overwatch have anything to do with this conversation? If we are talking about all video games then I would point out that all of the Total War games do not have animation canceling, and there are a ton of those.
And I think maybe you should spend time talking about the subject at hand then just making flippant remarks.
Overwatch has as much to do with combat in ESO as does Fornite. They are two completely different animals.
And unless you personally had a hand in designing ESO, then I was not making a sarcastic remark about you. Rather the person who designed Overwatch being from that school.
I gave you multiple examples of competitive online games of different genres for a reason. Dota and League are Mobas whereas call of duty and overwatch are FPS games. Yet they all have animation canceling. Hell, even Skyrim has animation canceling if you try to do it, and it's a single player rpg game. The point is it isn't some glitch or new concept that's exclusive in ESO. Yes some games do not have animation canceling, but ESO does.
If you're going to talk about how animation canceling was not intended, then sure it wasn't to some extent. ZOS did not expect players to learn how to LA weave for more DPS. What was intended is defensive animation canceling. ZOS has always intended for blocking and dodge rolling to be prioritized over skills and light attacks because it creates a fluid combat system where players have the freedom to be defensive when necessary.
There is more to animation canceling than just LA weaving. You don't need to have a perfect LA ratio in PvP, but you do need to be able to perform defensive animation canceling perfectly if you want to be good at surviving. When people want animation canceling removed, they are unknowingly asking for the most fundamental aspect of this game's combat system to be removed. Nobody is going to support that.
Oh by the way, people who claim that it's a glitch are just trolls. ZOS has repeatedly confirmed that they fully support this mechanic on stream. The entire patch where LA damage was buffed is evidence for this support. The birth of Crushing Weapons in the Psijic skill line is also another piece of evidence for this.Edited by StaticWave on April 5, 2020 6:00AMPlatform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc1 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedDusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.
It depends on the macros being used. There is no disadvantage in using short macros that combine light attacks with skills, and yes - a lot of players do use them. I've used similar macros on other games myself - and they are helpful and advantageous.
But anyway, macro use is a real problem on this game and me saying that shouldn't offend you or take away from your feeling of accomplishment on the "harder content". So there is no reason for you to become defensive here. I'm not accusing you personally of using macros.
Well if You assume that You'll create multiple macros for multiple situations that You'll be dynamically switching inbetween during combat then at certain point managing Your macros wil be harder then light attack weaving. As for making la+skill macro is ESO it is disadventageous. How do You know lot of players is using them in ESO ? Any data behind Your claim ? Because from what knowledge I was able to gather rarely anyone is in hardest game end content is even considering macros as usefull or adventageous. They're just making players weaker because someone who cannot click fast can't think fast and someone who can;t think fast will simply die when things will not go as planned. Making Yourself weaker deliberately will not get You accomplishments in hardest content in ESO. Don't compare using macros in other games to using them in ESO. Comparison like that is out of context.
Macros are not real problem. Barely anyone is using them and those who are using them and I know of are usually average players with or without them. People beliving that macros are massively used in ESO game end content are problem because they refuse to acknowledge real reasons of skill qap between players.
How about traffic data from a github page of just ONE of those macros? This aims at people who are comfortable installing some unknown stuff from random github pages for this purpose. And this is completely ignoring those who just program their gaming mice to do the same thing.
And the date of the release of the first publically available version:
Wanna do the math and compare the result to the numbers on Steam?
You're funny guy/girl @ZeroXFF to provide "evidence" like that. I made some small research on the data You've provided
So that graph You've linked is showing the most popular macro on the github website. And it had only 131 unique visitors. Out of hundreds of thousands or even millions of people that played in ESO during last 2 years on PC only 131 visited that website. We don't even know how many people downloaded it but propably less then that. I couldn't even find other similar macros on that website and if there are other ones they have close to zero visitors. So if there isn't other more popular website then Your evidence is non existant. Basically You've proven my point that barely anyone is using macros in ESO.
Oh and btw steam numbers are just showing tiny fraction of players playing on PC from steam not all players playing on PC platform. Vast majority of the PC playerbase is not using steam. Seriously You're embarrasing Yourself with posts like the one above.
131 in the past 14 days, including today, which just started. Do the math.
Ahh sorry it's 2 weeks. My mistake Then it would be less then 7k unique visits (not downloads) during 2 years. Still very low. And that graph shows that lately there was influx of visits which suggest previously it was lower. Can You show graph for example from last month ? Because I've seen that macro being linked lately on forum which was most propably reason why it got way more attention and way more visits then usual. That fact makes that 7k going down to like maybe 2-3k visits during 2 years. 2-3k visits which means even less donwloads. That is not even 1% of people that played ESO on PC during that time so You're still proving my point.
I cannot do that, guthub does not provide older data. You'll just have to believe me when I tell you that within a month of the initial release it was already at about 5 unique visitors per day and in the past year stayed fairly stable at 10/day.
And like I said, this is a fraction of a fraction. Most people just use gaming mice for it.
So it's like I said. Overall amount of downloads will be very low maybe even less then 1k. And that is propably one of the more popular websites to find stuff like that. If we would assume that during last 2 years 1 million players in total played the game on PC servers (propably it was more) then it means 0,1% of them used macro from the website You've linked. You would need 10 more websites like that to make it 1%. There is still pretty long way from that to saying that macros are real issue in the game and that peoples are commonly using them. Really long way.
Yet again: gaming mice. Why download sketchy scripts when you can just fool around with the software that came with your mouse when you bought it?1 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedDusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.
No, in "real content" macros are not a disadvantage, only bad macros are. There is a way of designing a game so that only bad (or very situational) macros are possible, but that is not the case with ESO. I'd explain more, but I'm not eager to be banned.
To really understand why macros are not that adventageous for high game end players in ESO You would have to first become one. And judging by quality of Your posts I think You're not.
I did all hard modes in dungeons (except the last 2, because I kinda barely log in any more due to switching my main OS to linux), vBRP, flawless conqueror on multiple classes, and most of the trial hard modes (vMoL hm, vHoF hm [a year or two before the nerf], vSS fire and ice hm, vCR+2), all in a casual guild with open signups, because I was never into the whole hardcore thing and having "core" groups. Of course there are better players, but they are rarer than macro users, and if you want proof, search for the last numbers ZOS provided on the completion of all the content I listed.
I also explained how one macro works. What disadvantage do you see there? Like even just hypothetical. All I see from you is assertions with no basis at all.2 -
Nomadic_Atmoran✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, the skill gap is fine.Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »Sometimes I can't help but feel anti-animation canceling peeps are the people that can't get the rotations down, get flustered, claim it has to be an exploit to do this, and then rage about cheaters instead of just accepting that they suck.
Actually, you almost certainly could help but feel that, you just choose not to.
Technically, it was an exploit of an unintended mechanic, which ZOS chose to "embrace", rather than find a proper fix for.
By "exploit", in this context, I don't mean the people doing it were doing something wrong.
Just that they had (innocently) stumbled across a (pretty obvious) loophole in the combat design and were, inevitably, using it to their (fairly massive) advantage.
Which means they were exploiting it...
Just because people call it what it is - an "exploit" - doesn't mean they think it's a nefarious exploit, that should have seen people using it be punished, or anything.
They're just, accurately, calling it what it, technically, is.
You, really, need, to understand, that commas, are not meant, to be, abused in this manner.
If the developers wanted this gone and at this point its their opinions on the matter that is all that matters on the topic 6 years in. If the developers wanted it gone they would have taken a stance against it already. They have not.Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry - Laerinel Rhaev - Enrerion - Caius Berilius - Seylina Ithvala - Signa Squallrider - H'Vak the GrimjawlYynril Rothvani - Tenarei Rhaev - Bathes-In-Coin - Dazsh Ro Khar - Aredyhel - Reads-To-Frogs - Azjani Ma'LesKheshna gra-Gharbuk - Gallisten Bondurant - Aban Shahid Bakr - Etain Maquier - Atsu Kalame - Faulpia Severinus3 -
WilliamESO✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.Animations cancel is the reason why the pgm likes this game1
-
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.
I guess you just misunderstand what I'm trying to say - that the whole AC thing was never intended, but ZOS just accepted it in the end by whatever reasons. It just doesn't look like this could be intended, it is a flaw which they just don't want to fix.
Zos Always intended for you to be able to stop what you are doing to take defensive Action. So block, bash and roll cacnelling was Always intended.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.3 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.
No, in "real content" macros are not a disadvantage, only bad macros are. There is a way of designing a game so that only bad (or very situational) macros are possible, but that is not the case with ESO. I'd explain more, but I'm not eager to be banned.
"I know it's happening" but.. "I'm not going to share". The mantra of those that exaggerate
TBF it is never a good idea to explain how to exploit and macros are an exploit.
Further, while I have never used a macro in combat, with the LA weave meta Zos created in Morrowind is really does push using macros. It is easy to set up a LA weave macro.
Let's be frank here. No one is actually going to admit they use macros but we all know the importance of hitting those LAs.
Yeah, I've now got Gryphon Heart, Immortal Redeemer, and Tick-Tock Tormentor, and I've never used a macro. I'd feel much less accomplished had I. Yes, I'm a healer, so LA weaving is mush less important, but looking at logs, I'm fairly confident that I'm at least okay at them.Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger61,405 achievement points2 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedtmbrinks wrote:
Then CHOOSE to leave. There must be plenty of other games for you to play, instead of trying to make this one a clone of all the others.
lol, I'm not choosing to leave, because this is one thing I'm not happy with, while I am happy with most other things.
You can also choose to leave, if you want.
I don't want to leave. I like the combat the way it is. I like that it's different than other MMOs.
Why does everything need to be the same?
Yeah, you apparently like combat as it is, but there are probably other things you would say you would change, if you were specifically asked in a poll.
If I then said you should "CHOOSE to leave", just because I disagreed with your opinion, would you think of that as a fair solution?
It's a very childish thing to say.
This isn't just your game; everyone has a right to an opinion.5 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedNomadic_Atmoran wrote: »Sometimes I can't help but feel anti-animation canceling peeps are the people that can't get the rotations down, get flustered, claim it has to be an exploit to do this, and then rage about cheaters instead of just accepting that they suck.
Actually, you almost certainly could help but feel that, you just choose not to.
Technically, it was an exploit of an unintended mechanic, which ZOS chose to "embrace", rather than find a proper fix for.
By "exploit", in this context, I don't mean the people doing it were doing something wrong.
Just that they had (innocently) stumbled across a (pretty obvious) loophole in the combat design and were, inevitably, using it to their (fairly massive) advantage.
Which means they were exploiting it...
Just because people call it what it is - an "exploit" - doesn't mean they think it's a nefarious exploit, that should have seen people using it be punished, or anything.
They're just, accurately, calling it what it, technically, is.
It’s hitting a freaking light attack before a skill. If you push the button for light attack and then push the button for a skill you will probably not see the full light attack animation unless you wait for a second or more. That’s literally all it is. If you press a skill and then bar swap, you will probably not see the full animation of the skill because you bar swapped. Uh oh, you just did animation cancelling. Why are people so bent out of shape about this? Most people probably already do it, and don’t even realize it.
Do you bother to read anything anyone ever says?
Or do you just carry on assuming, to try to bolster up your (failing) argument?
I already said, both here and elsewhere, that I (reluctantly) weave (and have done for some time).
As you, correctly, say it's not hard (once you get into it), but it makes a massive difference to DPS, if you can maintain the right rythym and speed.
My issue with it, is that it is messy design and also, non-intuitive, for most newer players, to have to insert a light attack in between every single skill.
In addition to that, it's severely immersion-breaking, because in real life you would obviously never alternate attacks in a regimented way, like that.
On-off-on-off-on-off... just reminds you, literally every second, that you're playing a badly designed game.
If you have any kind of taste, at all, that should irk you.
The only reason anyone would want it to stay, is that "noobs" don't know to do it yet, so it gives more established players an, often undeserved, sense of superiority.
Edited by Tigerseye on April 5, 2020 11:20AM7 -
Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »
Actually, you almost certainly could help but feel that, you just choose not to.
Technically, it was an exploit of an unintended mechanic, which ZOS chose to "embrace", rather than find a proper fix for.
By "exploit", in this context, I don't mean the people doing it were doing something wrong.
Just that they had (innocently) stumbled across a (pretty obvious) loophole in the combat design and were, inevitably, using it to their (fairly massive) advantage.
Which means they were exploiting it...
Just because people call it what it is - an "exploit" - doesn't mean they think it's a nefarious exploit, that should have seen people using it be punished, or anything.
They're just, accurately, calling it what it, technically, is.
They Arent. Being a feature the devs want us to use and being an exploit is mutually exclusive, it cannot be one and the other. And the devs want us to use it.
But at their heart features and exploits are the same thing, a bug. Those that cannot be fixed become viewed as features, and those that can be fixed become viewed as exploits
3 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressed
I'm not trying to "force" anything.
I was asked my opinion and I gave it, just like you did.
I'm not going to stop having opinions and expressing them (and you shouldn't, either).4 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedStaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »I don’t under stand why people think that animation canceling was intended. Do they think the people designing the combat animations did not read their memos about combat speed? Do they think the game director intended janky looking combat? Like intentionally making it look like a mistake, by design?
It was obviously not intended just by how stupid it looks. If it was intended, it would look way more polished.
Sometimes I wish the designers stuck to their guns and kept mods that tracked dps out of the game. You can see how much poison it has inflicted into the player base. Having all the players not worry about how much dps they do compared to others would have maintained a much healthier attitude in the player base.
Overwatch has animation canceling which works identical to ESO.
Is that an mmo? Well then, I would counter that example with basically every AAA game ever created.
What does being an mmo have to do with anything? The point is animation canceling is not a glitch and has existed in many online games. It's not a new concept, and certainly not cheating/exploiting. The fact that you're so bent out of shape over a known mechanic makes you look no less than a noob.
ESO is one of the few games where there is freedom to play how you want and in this case, freedom to let animations play their full duration, or cancel them for more DPS. Yet it is the only game where players who suck at mechanics want to dumb down gameplay instead of trying to get better.
I think you should actually spend more time learning how to play instead of making dumb sarcastic comments on the forums. You just make yourself look more of a fool.
Going on about someone being a "noob" just proves my point about why (a few) not very nice or impressive people, so desperately, want this to stay.
There are far better ways to validate your existence on this planet than cheesing your way, endlessly, through the badly designed combat in a game and thinking of everyone else, who doesn't want to do that, as a "noob".4 -
Daffen✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.The reason ESO compared to some othe MMO's does not have an auto-attack function is because unlinke ESO, the other games have a mouse pointer able to point and click on enemies while ESO looks at where you are pointing. The other games also usually moves with the mouse as well.
Gameplay would become way clunkier and annoying if you had to doubble click on an enemy to auto-attack it while beeing locked onto them (to prevent beeing able to auto attack an enemy standing behind you). This would create more buttons to press to be able to stop attacking the enemy and do other actions like running in the opposite direction from the enemy.
Switching targets would also be extremely hard as you have to either double click or click once to auto-attack the enemy. Having a seperate button for auto-attacking would make it harder for players to quickly disengage or switch targets, slowing down combat.
And this poll is really misleading as the title is: The skill gap is too great due to twitch-based reflex type combat like weaving and animation cancel. What this means is that the skill gap is too great because you have to have fast reactions and twitch with your hands to be able to weave and animation cancel. I think of weaving and animation cancelling comes as a aequence of button presses, similar to playing piano, you dont press the buttons as fast as possible to play, but you press them in a specific order one button at a time. (not excactly as hard as it is to play piano but at beginner level it is the same) the first note is light attack, then you press the second note which is one of 6 different notes (skills) , third note is also one of many different combination of notes possible and doesnt have to be played every time. (block, bar-swap, roll dodge, bash. You can do all 4 of these at the same time by blocking then bashing and bar swapping right before roll dodging). This is the main melody of eso gameplay (right hand when playing piano) , when fighting and doing damage you wont be doing much different than pressing these different notes, in the same specific order.
All the other actions in the game (movement, sprinting, potions, jumping, moving mouse, getting on your horse) are performed at the same time the main melody is playing. This is the left hand when you are playing the piano. When practicing on a piano you usually practice the right and left hand individually first before trying to combine them and practice that. Playing the hands individually is easy for some, but harder for others. Thats why you start playing the song slow and start playing faster and faster once you get the hang of it.
The left hand should be the easiest, but it can be hard to know which notes you should be playing and where they are located but after a while your hand automatically knows where to go and which notes to press.
The right hand is a bit harder but is more fun to learn and sometimes require more practice to not stress out and press the buttons fanatically. After a while you learn the perfect rhythm of the melody and are sble to play it perfectly (equal to doing pve rotation on a training dummy).
Once you have mastered the hands individually you have to start all over again and practice with both hands simultaneously. This makes it so your left hand no longer knows where to go and which notes to press and your right hand are pressing buttons randomly. So you have to start practicing slowly again, some start by moving around the training dummy while doing rotations. Once you are feeling comfortable you start playing the song at normal speed (doing dungeons or pvp) you will miss notes alot in the beginning, but you will get better. It will take months to be able to be comfortable to play the game with la weaving and animation cancelling, but it is in no way, twitch-based reflex type combat as the op said.
People need to embrace the skill gap and instead of trying to change the game, change themselves. I am much happier when new players come on the forums to get help rather than blame the game, not wanting to improve. And also, comparing the game to a piano is not 100% accurate as you use both hands to do light attack and skills the same way you use both to move your mouse and move with keyboard. Same with controller.0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.
No, in "real content" macros are not a disadvantage, only bad macros are. There is a way of designing a game so that only bad (or very situational) macros are possible, but that is not the case with ESO. I'd explain more, but I'm not eager to be banned.
To really understand why macros are not that adventageous for high game end players in ESO You would have to first become one. And judging by quality of Your posts I think You're not.
I did all hard modes in dungeons (except the last 2, because I kinda barely log in any more due to switching my main OS to linux), vBRP, flawless conqueror on multiple classes, and most of the trial hard modes (vMoL hm, vHoF hm [a year or two before the nerf], vSS fire and ice hm, vCR+2), all in a casual guild with open signups, because I was never into the whole hardcore thing and having "core" groups. Of course there are better players, but they are rarer than macro users, and if you want proof, search for the last numbers ZOS provided on the completion of all the content I listed.
I also explained how one macro works. What disadvantage do you see there? Like even just hypothetical. All I see from you is assertions with no basis at all.
Well sorry to wake You up but all of the content You've mentioned is not the hardest game end. Most of it can be completed with properly guided casual players.
I think everyone knows how macro works. You don't need to explain it. My point still stands.Edited by Juhasow on April 5, 2020 12:59PM3 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.
It depends on the macros being used. There is no disadvantage in using short macros that combine light attacks with skills, and yes - a lot of players do use them. I've used similar macros on other games myself - and they are helpful and advantageous.
But anyway, macro use is a real problem on this game and me saying that shouldn't offend you or take away from your feeling of accomplishment on the "harder content". So there is no reason for you to become defensive here. I'm not accusing you personally of using macros.
Well if You assume that You'll create multiple macros for multiple situations that You'll be dynamically switching inbetween during combat then at certain point managing Your macros wil be harder then light attack weaving. As for making la+skill macro is ESO it is disadventageous. How do You know lot of players is using them in ESO ? Any data behind Your claim ? Because from what knowledge I was able to gather rarely anyone is in hardest game end content is even considering macros as usefull or adventageous. They're just making players weaker because someone who cannot click fast can't think fast and someone who can;t think fast will simply die when things will not go as planned. Making Yourself weaker deliberately will not get You accomplishments in hardest content in ESO. Don't compare using macros in other games to using them in ESO. Comparison like that is out of context.
Macros are not real problem. Barely anyone is using them and those who are using them and I know of are usually average players with or without them. People beliving that macros are massively used in ESO game end content are problem because they refuse to acknowledge real reasons of skill qap between players.
How about traffic data from a github page of just ONE of those macros? This aims at people who are comfortable installing some unknown stuff from random github pages for this purpose. And this is completely ignoring those who just program their gaming mice to do the same thing.
And the date of the release of the first publically available version:
Wanna do the math and compare the result to the numbers on Steam?
You're funny guy/girl @ZeroXFF to provide "evidence" like that. I made some small research on the data You've provided
So that graph You've linked is showing the most popular macro on the github website. And it had only 131 unique visitors. Out of hundreds of thousands or even millions of people that played in ESO during last 2 years on PC only 131 visited that website. We don't even know how many people downloaded it but propably less then that. I couldn't even find other similar macros on that website and if there are other ones they have close to zero visitors. So if there isn't other more popular website then Your evidence is non existant. Basically You've proven my point that barely anyone is using macros in ESO.
Oh and btw steam numbers are just showing tiny fraction of players playing on PC from steam not all players playing on PC platform. Vast majority of the PC playerbase is not using steam. Seriously You're embarrasing Yourself with posts like the one above.
131 in the past 14 days, including today, which just started. Do the math.
Ahh sorry it's 2 weeks. My mistake Then it would be less then 7k unique visits (not downloads) during 2 years. Still very low. And that graph shows that lately there was influx of visits which suggest previously it was lower. Can You show graph for example from last month ? Because I've seen that macro being linked lately on forum which was most propably reason why it got way more attention and way more visits then usual. That fact makes that 7k going down to like maybe 2-3k visits during 2 years. 2-3k visits which means even less donwloads. That is not even 1% of people that played ESO on PC during that time so You're still proving my point.
I cannot do that, guthub does not provide older data. You'll just have to believe me when I tell you that within a month of the initial release it was already at about 5 unique visitors per day and in the past year stayed fairly stable at 10/day.
And like I said, this is a fraction of a fraction. Most people just use gaming mice for it.
So it's like I said. Overall amount of downloads will be very low maybe even less then 1k. And that is propably one of the more popular websites to find stuff like that. If we would assume that during last 2 years 1 million players in total played the game on PC servers (propably it was more) then it means 0,1% of them used macro from the website You've linked. You would need 10 more websites like that to make it 1%. There is still pretty long way from that to saying that macros are real issue in the game and that peoples are commonly using them. Really long way.
Yet again: gaming mice. Why download sketchy scripts when you can just fool around with the software that came with your mouse when you bought it?
Because I don't want to put myself at disadventage when it comes to participating in harder fights. Both in PvE and PvP. Macros are simply too messy and lower Your skill level. So when You're put against really good players who are not using macros You'll fall behind them. That is why rarely any good player is relying on macros. Because at the end it would make him/her weaker and more vulnerable when things will not go as planned which happens pretty often.Edited by Juhasow on April 5, 2020 3:08PM7 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »
I guess you just misunderstand what I'm trying to say - that the whole AC thing was never intended, but ZOS just accepted it in the end by whatever reasons. It just doesn't look like this could be intended, it is a flaw which they just don't want to fix.
Zos Always intended for you to be able to stop what you are doing to take defensive Action. So block, bash and roll cacnelling was Always intended.
Ok this is reasonable for getting out of the way - but I doubt it was intended for how it is used now. They just can't fix it.3 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »
I guess you just misunderstand what I'm trying to say - that the whole AC thing was never intended, but ZOS just accepted it in the end by whatever reasons. It just doesn't look like this could be intended, it is a flaw which they just don't want to fix.
Zos Always intended for you to be able to stop what you are doing to take defensive Action. So block, bash and roll cacnelling was Always intended.
Ok this is reasonable for getting out of the way - but I doubt it was intended for how it is used now. They just can't fix it.
To fix something You would have to 1st break it. Light attack weaving never broke any predetermined rules of combat in ESO. That plus fact developers likes the additional dynamic it adds to combat caused it to stay. If devs would just want to get rid of it they could do it easily long time ago since rules it underlies are pretty easy to change. For example they could just add blending time after light attack or delay registration of next attack within global cooldown frames. They did already both of those things in the past to certain abilities and actions which shows it's easily doable. They don't want to do it though because it would strip combat out from the thing that is for many people most enjoyable part of it. That is why they're looking for status quo instead of just removing weaving.Edited by Juhasow on April 5, 2020 5:13PM3 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »Sometimes I can't help but feel anti-animation canceling peeps are the people that can't get the rotations down, get flustered, claim it has to be an exploit to do this, and then rage about cheaters instead of just accepting that they suck.
Actually, you almost certainly could help but feel that, you just choose not to.
Technically, it was an exploit of an unintended mechanic, which ZOS chose to "embrace", rather than find a proper fix for.
By "exploit", in this context, I don't mean the people doing it were doing something wrong.
Just that they had (innocently) stumbled across a (pretty obvious) loophole in the combat design and were, inevitably, using it to their (fairly massive) advantage.
Which means they were exploiting it...
Just because people call it what it is - an "exploit" - doesn't mean they think it's a nefarious exploit, that should have seen people using it be punished, or anything.
They're just, accurately, calling it what it, technically, is.
To exploit =/= to use an exploit. "Exploit" used as a verb have slightly different context from using that word as a noun.
And technically light attack weaving was part of intended mechanic which ZoS acknowledged the day they discovered it's possible to do. Animation cancelling was always intended in ESO that's a fact. Light attack weaving was byproduct of it. Unexpected at the beggining but still it was not breaking rules of the combat that developers created in any way. ZoS was simply not expecting that people will take it to the next level and turn it into important part of the rotations but the moment they've realized it they were completly fine with it because it was not breaking any rule of combat they've made.
What kind of logic is that - if you intend something you do not discover it later on - you put it there to be there, but if you had to discover it, it was clearly not intended
Logic is pretty simple here. But to understand it You need to first know the difference between terms "animation cancelling" and "light attack weaving". Looks like You don't.
You just try to cover up your illogical statement - you cannot discover something what you intentionally put there.
I am trying to cover up the fact I cannot take You seriously if You don't see the difference between animation cnacelling and light attack weaving.
Then try to explain it in logical terms this time - to me that are just different terms for the same thing.
I already explained it. Problem is You simply don't understand it. You should read more carefully my 1st post You've responded to. Especially part saying "light attack weaving was part of intended mechanic". That intended mechanic was animation cancelling.
Well, ZeroXFF was so kind to put it in terms which can be understood - instead to just state that i cannot understand it. What you cannot understand though is, that you said it was intentional and still they had to discover it - this doesn't fit together, it is either or, not both. Either put there by intend, or discovered later on.
I've said that animation cancelling was intentional and part of it which is light attack weaving was discovered later. If You had issues to understand it that's not my fault. You should read things more carefully.
And you think they create nice animations just to get them cancelled later on - why have them at all then?
And You think light attack weaving means that Your character is standing still and performing no animations at all ? I would hardly compare cliping the end of each animation to completly cancelling it. Light attack weaving is not removing animations completly. Most impirtant components of each animations are played out. People using argument that weaving is removing animations are simply overdramatic.
As for other ways of cancelling animations well I would rather not see animation of something then die due to not dodge/block/bash/swap cancelling.
I guess you just misunderstand what I'm trying to say - that the whole AC thing was never intended, but ZOS just accepted it in the end by whatever reasons. It just doesn't look like this could be intended, it is a flaw which they just don't want to fix.
I guess You don't understand that You cannot design and program such complex system like animation cnacelling in ESO without wanting it to happen. Animation cancelling in ESO is not something that somebody could design in 1 day. It's a complex system that requires lot of work from multiple developers that are fully aware what they're doing. It needs to be first designed "on paper" then programmed and tested many times. Some parts of it like weaving may be unexpected because those things are happening on players side of the table but the design itself of being able to cancel animation with some other action with higher priority needs to be purposely made. You can't make it by mistake. I think You dont know how many different rules and mechanics comes together to make animation cancelling in ESO the way it is. And each of those rules and mechanics had to be purposely designed to work with others. "Whole AC thing" was always intended. You can't fix something that was never broken. The only flaw is in You if You belive so hard that AC could be not intended that You're publically voicing Your opinion.Edited by Juhasow on April 5, 2020 5:57PM7 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.
No, in "real content" macros are not a disadvantage, only bad macros are. There is a way of designing a game so that only bad (or very situational) macros are possible, but that is not the case with ESO. I'd explain more, but I'm not eager to be banned.
"I know it's happening" but.. "I'm not going to share". The mantra of those that exaggerate
TBF it is never a good idea to explain how to exploit and macros are an exploit.
Further, while I have never used a macro in combat, with the LA weave meta Zos created in Morrowind is really does push using macros. It is easy to set up a LA weave macro.
Let's be frank here. No one is actually going to admit they use macros but we all know the importance of hitting those LAs.
Yeah, I've now got Gryphon Heart, Immortal Redeemer, and Tick-Tock Tormentor, and I've never used a macro. I'd feel much less accomplished had I. Yes, I'm a healer, so LA weaving is mush less important, but looking at logs, I'm fairly confident that I'm at least okay at them.
Clearly I did not indicate everyone used macros. Further, as a healer, it is a non-issue. The bigger issue healers with the idea Zos proposed is they will have to either stack more regen or learn to LA reliably if they are currently used to doing HAs to help with sustain.
There is an idea proposed by someone named Code that is well thought and considered playstyles at all levels of the game. I am not suggesting it is perfect but it is by far the best suggestion any players have proposed. Certainly more constructive than purposely biased polls. The link is below.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/517845/how-the-la-ha-changes-fail-to-fulfill-zoss-stated-goals-and-what-could-be-done-instead/p12 -
daemonor✭✭✭✭The skill gap is fine but it's not based on the gameplay in my opinion. As the only other mmo I've seriously played was World of Warcraft, I'd say the majority of the people who can't do vet/hm dungeon/trial content or play pvp (since there is no competetive pvp in eso it's hard to go by 1vpotato videos on youtube) definitely won't complete any mythic raids or go higher than 2k (and that's still generous) raiting in arenas/bgs.2
This discussion has been closed.