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The skill gap is too great due to twitch-based reflex type combat like weaving and animation cancel.
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Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.
I took them saying doing the same DPS as being very similar, not exact. There will always be people that can do a rotation faster or smoother. That's just how I took it though.
I don't really think it's a reward to not die and keep DPS'ing for knowing mechanics when the chance is that you might not have the DPS to finish in the first place if you're the only one left standing and having to take waaay longer or start all over. That's just personally how I feel though. Maybe others like that. IDK.
If you Always execute mechanics perfectly there is very few fights you cannot finish. You obviously also Need your teammates to do mechanics well but you dont finish Trials with super high dps either if you are the only one left alive. The only Trial that Comes to mind is vSS hm. You still Need reasonable dps for the others of Course but you dont Need to be even close to what the top Groups get to clear everything but vSS hm.
And if you dont like starting over and taking way longer to get to the same Point then you Need more dps. But if you all do mechanics well then you wont Need to start over anyway.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.1 -
ZOS_FalcoYamaokaadminGreetings,
We had to remove some posts as it violated our rules around abusive language and baiting. Please be sure to keep discussions civil and constructive. If you have any questions about the actions being taken, please take a moment to review our community rules here.0 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.
I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.
IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.
It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.1 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.
I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.
IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.
It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.
Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.
The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.
Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger61,215 achievement points8 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.BXR_Lonestar wrote: »
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.
There is only one dps check in Trials that actually requires you to do AC/LA weaving near flawlessly and that is vSS hm. All other Content you dont Need perfect weaving or AC for to pass dps checks, you just have to deal with mechanics more often.
The Performance gap will still be there even if you were to remove weaving because of Group compositions, buff and debuff uptimes, strats, specific boss builds that might not be shared etc. so the difficulty regarding Content design will still remain and personally I dont think it is that difficult, normal is accessible to everyone, the newer vet modes Arent that unaccessible either and the hardmodes are challening enough.
In Sunspire for example you Always Need to do mechanics, having high dps just means you have to repeat them less often. The new Trial will likely work like that aswell.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.3 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedBXR_Lonestar wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.
I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.
IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.
It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.
Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.
The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.
Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.
Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).
Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".
So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40% after considering all the ACs not directly measured and all the knock-on effects.Edited by ZeroXFF on April 6, 2020 7:19PM3 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.
I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.
IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.
It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.
Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.
The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.
Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.
Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).
Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".
So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.
Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.
They're different things.
Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?Edited by tmbrinks on April 6, 2020 7:28PMTenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger61,215 achievement points7 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedBXR_Lonestar wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.
I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.
IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.
It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.
Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.
The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.
Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.
Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).
Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".
So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.
Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.
They're different things.
Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?
LA weaving is a subset of AC.
And if you say "at most", it's not cherry-picking when I show you a contrary example, regardless of the class I pick. And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't use LAs at all if I couldn't AC them, but LAs generally do less damage than a single skill, so the % difference would remain the same or be even greater if I started replacing skills with non-cancellable LAs.Edited by ZeroXFF on April 6, 2020 7:34PM3 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.
I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.
IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.
It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.
Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.
The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.
Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.
Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).
Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".
So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.
Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.
They're different things.
LA weaving is a subset of AC.
I'd rather not have turn based combat.
You're literally saying there should be no light attacks at all. 2 button presses per second is too much?
Forget (actual) animation canceling, bash weaving, etc...Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger61,215 achievement points8 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.
I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.
IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.
It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.
Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.
The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.
Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.
Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).
Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".
So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.
Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.
They're different things.
Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?
LA weaving is a subset of AC.
And if you say "at most", it's not cherry-picking when I show you a contrary example, regardless of the class I pick. And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't use LAs at all if I couldn't AC them, but LAs generally do less damage than a single skill, so the % difference would remain the same or be even greater if I started replacing skills with non-cancellable LAs.
I DON'T CONSIDER LA WEAVING TO BE ANIMATION CANCELING. The 5% I give is from ACTUAL ANIMATION CANCELING!!!
besides get rid of AC and you won't even be able to block if you're in the middle of a channel when an add or boss decides to attack you. It was literally kill the reactive combat in the game.
Honestly, if you want auto attacks with just casting skills go play one of the other dozens of MMOs that are built that way. You have a choice. There's not much choice for those of us who like this game for what it is because of how the combat currently is.Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger61,215 achievement points6 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedBXR_Lonestar wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.
I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.
IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.
It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.
Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.
The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.
Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.
Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).
Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".
So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.
Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.
They're different things.
LA weaving is a subset of AC. I'd rather not have turn based combat.
You're literally saying there should be no light attacks at all. 2 button presses per second is too much?
Forget (actual) animation canceling, bash weaving, etc...
In this case I was just correcting your statement, not asserting what would be the best solution.
But yeah, putting LAs on the GCD is actually a good solution. And it's not about how many buttons are being pressed in a second, it's about how many buttons are being pressed for effectively a single action.
[Edit to remove bait]
[Edit2 to restore context]Edited by ZeroXFF on April 6, 2020 9:41PM1 -
Daffen✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.I dont understand why having a skill cap is a bad thing, do people not want to be rewarded for practicing and imrpoving their skills? The skill gap is one of the many reasons why players play this game.7
-
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »Overwatch has animation canceling which works identical to ESO.
And the devs there handle it sensibly -- by taking away that unintended advantage.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/4ybr0c/a_reminder_for_those_who_think_animation/
Thanks for pointing us to a better example of game devs, who actually think sensibly and talk about it openly.
What we have here instead are devs who made a short-sighted mistake; let it continue to get out of hand; and as with so many oversights and bugs and things they can't fix, are too embarrassed to openly admit it, discuss it, and address it.Edited by Dusk_Coven on April 6, 2020 7:58PM4 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedBXR_Lonestar wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.
I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.
IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.
It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.
Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.
The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.
Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.
Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).
Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".
So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.
Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.
They're different things.
Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?
LA weaving is a subset of AC.
And if you say "at most", it's not cherry-picking when I show you a contrary example, regardless of the class I pick. And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't use LAs at all if I couldn't AC them, but LAs generally do less damage than a single skill, so the % difference would remain the same or be even greater if I started replacing skills with non-cancellable LAs.
I DON'T CONSIDER LA WEAVING TO BE ANIMATION CANCELING. The 5% I give is from ACTUAL ANIMATION CANCELING!!!
besides get rid of AC and you won't even be able to block if you're in the middle of a channel when an add or boss decides to attack you. It was literally kill the reactive combat in the game.
Honestly, if you want auto attacks with just casting skills go play one of the other dozens of MMOs that are built that way. You have a choice. There's not much choice for those of us who like this game for what it is because of how the combat currently is.
Blocking or dodging doesn't increase your DPS on a dummy. Putting LAs on the GCD wouldn't affect it at all.
P.S. If you are going to come into the discussion with an alternative definition of certain terms, you should write out the definition of those terms. People can't read your mind about what you "consider" to be those terms. Because "animation cancelling" implies (drum roll) cancelling an animation, and that's exactly what happens when doing LA weaving. By not doing it your contribution to the thread instantly becomes a waste of screen space.2 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.
I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.
IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.
It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.
Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.
The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.
Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.
Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).
Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".
So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.
Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.
They're different things.
Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?
LA weaving is a subset of AC.
And if you say "at most", it's not cherry-picking when I show you a contrary example, regardless of the class I pick. And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't use LAs at all if I couldn't AC them, but LAs generally do less damage than a single skill, so the % difference would remain the same or be even greater if I started replacing skills with non-cancellable LAs.
I DON'T CONSIDER LA WEAVING TO BE ANIMATION CANCELING. The 5% I give is from ACTUAL ANIMATION CANCELING!!!
besides get rid of AC and you won't even be able to block if you're in the middle of a channel when an add or boss decides to attack you. It was literally kill the reactive combat in the game.
Honestly, if you want auto attacks with just casting skills go play one of the other dozens of MMOs that are built that way. You have a choice. There's not much choice for those of us who like this game for what it is because of how the combat currently is.
Blocking or dodging doesn't increase your DPS on a dummy. Putting LAs on the GCD wouldn't affect it at all.
P.S. If you are going to come into the discussion with an alternative definition of certain terms, you should write out the definition of those terms. People can't read your mind about what you "consider" to be those terms. Because "animation cancelling" implies (drum roll) cancelling an animation, and that's exactly what happens when doing LA weaving. By not doing it your contribution to the thread instantly becomes a waste of screen space.
All my fault for not being explicitly clear! I hope you can see that you're doing the same thing!
2 button presses a second is already slow. You want 1. Got it. No further explanation needed. If I want a turn-based game, I'll go play Civ VI. I like dynamic, reactive, engaging combat from something that requires some skill and practice to master.
That said, this is like beating a dead horse. It's in the game, the devs have said it's intended. They have given it their blessing. They do it themselves (albeit poorly) when they stream the game. When about 3 out of 4 people like it the way it is based on this (admittingly unscientific) poll, I don't forsee changes coming to this particular mechanic.
Now, the changes they're proposing for the PTS are going to make it EVEN MORE essential to LA weave to sustain, particularly for low-tier and mid-tier players (and healers and tanks), so better start practicing on that dummy, thankfully I already did so, to try and be the best possible healer that I could be!
Because if you enjoy something, and you want to be good at it... you actually practice it and learn how to do a skill!!!Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger61,215 achievement points7 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedBXR_Lonestar wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.
I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.
IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.
It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.
Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.
The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.
Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.
Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).
Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".
So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.
Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.
They're different things.
Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?
LA weaving is a subset of AC.
And if you say "at most", it's not cherry-picking when I show you a contrary example, regardless of the class I pick. And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't use LAs at all if I couldn't AC them, but LAs generally do less damage than a single skill, so the % difference would remain the same or be even greater if I started replacing skills with non-cancellable LAs.
I DON'T CONSIDER LA WEAVING TO BE ANIMATION CANCELING. The 5% I give is from ACTUAL ANIMATION CANCELING!!!
besides get rid of AC and you won't even be able to block if you're in the middle of a channel when an add or boss decides to attack you. It was literally kill the reactive combat in the game.
Honestly, if you want auto attacks with just casting skills go play one of the other dozens of MMOs that are built that way. You have a choice. There's not much choice for those of us who like this game for what it is because of how the combat currently is.
Blocking or dodging doesn't increase your DPS on a dummy. Putting LAs on the GCD wouldn't affect it at all.
P.S. If you are going to come into the discussion with an alternative definition of certain terms, you should write out the definition of those terms. People can't read your mind about what you "consider" to be those terms. Because "animation cancelling" implies (drum roll) cancelling an animation, and that's exactly what happens when doing LA weaving. By not doing it your contribution to the thread instantly becomes a waste of screen space.
All my fault for not being explicitly clear! I hope you can see that you're doing the same thing!
2 button presses a second is already slow. You want 1. Got it. No further explanation needed. If I want a turn-based game, I'll go play Civ VI. I like dynamic, reactive, engaging combat from something that requires some skill and practice to master.
That said, this is like beating a dead horse. It's in the game, the devs have said it's intended. They have given it their blessing. They do it themselves (albeit poorly) when they stream the game. When about 3 out of 4 people like it the way it is based on this (admittingly unscientific) poll, I don't forsee changes coming to this particular mechanic.
Now, the changes they're proposing for the PTS are going to make it EVEN MORE essential to LA weave to sustain, particularly for low-tier and mid-tier players (and healers and tanks), so better start practicing on that dummy, thankfully I already did so, to try and be the best possible healer that I could be!
Because if you enjoy something, and you want to be good at it... you actually practice it and learn how to do a skill!!!
I already explicitly said that I don't care about how many button presses there are in a second. I just don't want to have to press 2 buttons every time I activate a skill. I don't have a problem with GCD being lowered to 0.5s to give you your much desired 2 button presses per second, but I'd much prefer pressing different buttons, not always the same one.2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.
No, in "real content" macros are not a disadvantage, only bad macros are. There is a way of designing a game so that only bad (or very situational) macros are possible, but that is not the case with ESO. I'd explain more, but I'm not eager to be banned.
"I know it's happening" but.. "I'm not going to share". The mantra of those that exaggerate
TBF it is never a good idea to explain how to exploit and macros are an exploit.
Further, while I have never used a macro in combat, with the LA weave meta Zos created in Morrowind is really does push using macros. It is easy to set up a LA weave macro.
Let's be frank here. No one is actually going to admit they use macros but we all know the importance of hitting those LAs.
Yeah, I've now got Gryphon Heart, Immortal Redeemer, and Tick-Tock Tormentor, and I've never used a macro. I'd feel much less accomplished had I. Yes, I'm a healer, so LA weaving is mush less important, but looking at logs, I'm fairly confident that I'm at least okay at them.
Clearly I did not indicate everyone used macros. Further, as a healer, it is a non-issue. The bigger issue healers with the idea Zos proposed is they will have to either stack more regen or learn to LA reliably if they are currently used to doing HAs to help with sustain.
There is an idea proposed by someone named Code that is well thought and considered playstyles at all levels of the game. I am not suggesting it is perfect but it is by far the best suggestion any players have proposed. Certainly more constructive than purposely biased polls. The link is below.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/517845/how-the-la-ha-changes-fail-to-fulfill-zoss-stated-goals-and-what-could-be-done-instead/p1
Good post.
These changes on the PTS are going to screw a lot of play styles and builds that are accustomed to using heavy attacks as a source of sustain. And there are likely a lot of them too since this has literally been the way the game has operated since its beta.
So I don't know who at Zenimax thought these changes were a good idea, but I hope they reconsider and it never goes live. Because the last thing you want to do if you want to supposedly bridge the gap between players who weave and those who don't is to make light attack weaving necessary for sustain. Healers and tanks especially are going to hate these changes (I can promise you that) as it's very awkward trying to LA weave in between defensive and support actions.
This debacle is going to solve nothing and just wind up annoying players for no good reason.Edited by Jeremy on April 6, 2020 8:12PM3 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think there are better ways to make the player "gap" smaller. Like for example gear availability.
Gear can make a huge difference in how players preform. In short: Players who have better "skill level" (are more skilled), can do harder content which rewards them with better gear (example perfected gear vs non-perfected or Arena weapons, or DLC Dungeon gear vs base game gear etc). And so the gap in terms of player performance gets greater with more or less every update.
I do realize that gear is a matter of progression too. However if we had ways in which less skilled players can obtain better gear in a different way, it would be definitely less invasive (lesser evil) than making huge changes every update, adding cast times left & right and slowing the game down.
Other ways could be for example similar mechanics that was used in IC - key fragments that allow you get gear by sloooowly grinding keys. Other solution could be gold vendor (it kinda lost its meaning when ZOS added jewellery crafting).Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on April 6, 2020 8:28PM0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »I think there are better ways to make the player "gap" smaller. Like for example gear availability.
Gear can make a huge difference in how players preform. In short: Players who have better "skill level" (are more skilled), can do harder content which rewards them with better gear (example perfected gear vs non-perfected or Arena weapons, or DLC Dungeon gear vs base game gear etc). And so the gap in terms of player performance gets greater with more or less every update.
I do realize that gear is a matter of progression too. However if we had ways in which less skilled players can obtain better gear in a different way, it would be definitely less invasive (lesser evil) than making huge changes every update, adding cast times left & right and slowing the game down.
Other ways could be for example similar mechanics that was used in IC - key fragments that allow you get gear by sloooowly grinding keys. Other solution could be gold vendor (it kinda lost its meaning when ZOS added jewellery crafting).
There are ways already. You can get the non perfected versions from normal Trials, the only Thing they are missing is a singular stat Bonus compared to perfected (outside of ability altering weapons) and nma for example is craftable and some overland or dungeon sets that you can farm in normal are very good aswell.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.4 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.Regarding not being able to do vTrial Hard Modes without Light Attacking, all I can say is: SMH. It is literally called HARD MODE.
That is like a Super Smash Bros. player saying "I deserve to compete (and win!) at EVO and I totally could... except that I don't like to air-dodge. In fact, I refuse to air-dodge! The only reason I ever lose is because I don't air-dodge. I think air-dodge should be removed because I'm a good player and I shouldn't lose to players who abuse air-dodge." See how nonsensical that sounds?
Hard Modes are not intended for everyone to complete, they (and the even more esoteric achievements) are there for the best-of-the-best not Average Joe 60th percentile DPS.
We cannot all have all of the things, otherwise the value of those things plummets to zero and obviates the accomplishment of actually doing them. What about this is so hard to understand?
(And I say this as a humble, non-elite DPS who knows that many achievements are not mine to have, but who is nonetheless okay with and approving of that.)10 -
![[Deleted User]](https://us.v-cdn.net/5020507/uploads/06301530861bfae62d56b72eef4ac33d.png)
[Deleted User]Soul ShrivenHello everyone,
Recently we've had to remove a few posts for baiting and flaming, content that is against the Forum Rules. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid thread derailment.
Thank you for understanding.1 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.I agree there is a skill gap and it would be nice if newer players could be brought along faster, but I selected no in this poll because it not only asks about a skill gap but makes assumptions built into the question about the cause and (by inference) the solution.
Skill gaps naturally occur in ALL MATURE MMOs. Yes, it's true that some folks will spend a LOT of time trying to hit those elite DPS numbers and can't. I am one of those people. For a variety of reasons. Which is why I heal, tank, and my DPS alts don't get past normal trials but can do most vet dungeons as long as they aren't 100% carrying the other DPS. I can accept that. I also would be fine with a good solution to this that doesn't dumb the game down and further reduce the flexibility and fun of support roles in the process.
However I do not think the biggest problem is weaving or people hitting 30K DPs that can't hit 65K. The biggest problem is people barely hitting 5K and not understanding how this is an issue until it is too late in the game and they get frustrated when they are kicked or ridiculed in real content. This has to do with the fact that less new people are learning together at one time, as happens with a brand new MMO, there's power creep so that overland and questing content is crazy easy, and there are less people available and even less willing to help new people make their way through older, kinda hard content before jumping to the brand new content. It is NOT because these people can't weave or animation cancel. These folks need help with learning what weapons to use with their class, what sets to pursue, how to block, how to interrupt, learning what enchantments are, and knowing that if the healer rezzes they can't also be healing which means that's the LAST RESORT.
WE SHOULD FIX THIS PROBLEM FIRST. If it is possible to fix any of this, at all. Because, as I said, a bit of it is just the nature of MMOs.
Changing LA and HA so drastically to try and "close the skill gap" is a bad idea. And this poll is problematic because it makes it seem if you pick yes that you support the solution on the table, which frankly is NOT a good one.3 -
Rust_in_Peace✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.No one asked for this change and the people defending it are just mindless bootlickers.3 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.
I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.
IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.
It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.
Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.
The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.
Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.
Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).
Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".
So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.
Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.
They're different things.
Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?
LA weaving is a subset of AC.
And if you say "at most", it's not cherry-picking when I show you a contrary example, regardless of the class I pick. And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't use LAs at all if I couldn't AC them, but LAs generally do less damage than a single skill, so the % difference would remain the same or be even greater if I started replacing skills with non-cancellable LAs.
I DON'T CONSIDER LA WEAVING TO BE ANIMATION CANCELING. The 5% I give is from ACTUAL ANIMATION CANCELING!!!
besides get rid of AC and you won't even be able to block if you're in the middle of a channel when an add or boss decides to attack you. It was literally kill the reactive combat in the game.
Honestly, if you want auto attacks with just casting skills go play one of the other dozens of MMOs that are built that way. You have a choice. There's not much choice for those of us who like this game for what it is because of how the combat currently is.
Blocking or dodging doesn't increase your DPS on a dummy. Putting LAs on the GCD wouldn't affect it at all.
P.S. If you are going to come into the discussion with an alternative definition of certain terms, you should write out the definition of those terms. People can't read your mind about what you "consider" to be those terms. Because "animation cancelling" implies (drum roll) cancelling an animation, and that's exactly what happens when doing LA weaving. By not doing it your contribution to the thread instantly becomes a waste of screen space.
All my fault for not being explicitly clear! I hope you can see that you're doing the same thing!
2 button presses a second is already slow. You want 1. Got it. No further explanation needed. If I want a turn-based game, I'll go play Civ VI. I like dynamic, reactive, engaging combat from something that requires some skill and practice to master.
That said, this is like beating a dead horse. It's in the game, the devs have said it's intended. They have given it their blessing. They do it themselves (albeit poorly) when they stream the game. When about 3 out of 4 people like it the way it is based on this (admittingly unscientific) poll, I don't forsee changes coming to this particular mechanic.
Now, the changes they're proposing for the PTS are going to make it EVEN MORE essential to LA weave to sustain, particularly for low-tier and mid-tier players (and healers and tanks), so better start practicing on that dummy, thankfully I already did so, to try and be the best possible healer that I could be!
Because if you enjoy something, and you want to be good at it... you actually practice it and learn how to do a skill!!!
I already explicitly said that I don't care about how many button presses there are in a second. I just don't want to have to press 2 buttons every time I activate a skill. I don't have a problem with GCD being lowered to 0.5s to give you your much desired 2 button presses per second, but I'd much prefer pressing different buttons, not always the same one.
You don't even realize what would happen if abilities GCD would be lowered to 0,5 sec.Edited by Juhasow on April 7, 2020 4:24AM2 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedBXR_Lonestar wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.
I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.
IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.
It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.
Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.
The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.
Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.
Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).
Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".
So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.
Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.
They're different things.
Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?
LA weaving is a subset of AC.
And if you say "at most", it's not cherry-picking when I show you a contrary example, regardless of the class I pick. And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't use LAs at all if I couldn't AC them, but LAs generally do less damage than a single skill, so the % difference would remain the same or be even greater if I started replacing skills with non-cancellable LAs.
I DON'T CONSIDER LA WEAVING TO BE ANIMATION CANCELING. The 5% I give is from ACTUAL ANIMATION CANCELING!!!
besides get rid of AC and you won't even be able to block if you're in the middle of a channel when an add or boss decides to attack you. It was literally kill the reactive combat in the game.
Honestly, if you want auto attacks with just casting skills go play one of the other dozens of MMOs that are built that way. You have a choice. There's not much choice for those of us who like this game for what it is because of how the combat currently is.
Blocking or dodging doesn't increase your DPS on a dummy. Putting LAs on the GCD wouldn't affect it at all.
P.S. If you are going to come into the discussion with an alternative definition of certain terms, you should write out the definition of those terms. People can't read your mind about what you "consider" to be those terms. Because "animation cancelling" implies (drum roll) cancelling an animation, and that's exactly what happens when doing LA weaving. By not doing it your contribution to the thread instantly becomes a waste of screen space.
All my fault for not being explicitly clear! I hope you can see that you're doing the same thing!
2 button presses a second is already slow. You want 1. Got it. No further explanation needed. If I want a turn-based game, I'll go play Civ VI. I like dynamic, reactive, engaging combat from something that requires some skill and practice to master.
That said, this is like beating a dead horse. It's in the game, the devs have said it's intended. They have given it their blessing. They do it themselves (albeit poorly) when they stream the game. When about 3 out of 4 people like it the way it is based on this (admittingly unscientific) poll, I don't forsee changes coming to this particular mechanic.
Now, the changes they're proposing for the PTS are going to make it EVEN MORE essential to LA weave to sustain, particularly for low-tier and mid-tier players (and healers and tanks), so better start practicing on that dummy, thankfully I already did so, to try and be the best possible healer that I could be!
Because if you enjoy something, and you want to be good at it... you actually practice it and learn how to do a skill!!!
I already explicitly said that I don't care about how many button presses there are in a second. I just don't want to have to press 2 buttons every time I activate a skill. I don't have a problem with GCD being lowered to 0.5s to give you your much desired 2 button presses per second, but I'd much prefer pressing different buttons, not always the same one.
You don't even realize what would happen if abilities GCD would be lowered to 0,5 sec.
Who's against "fast paced" combat now?2 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.
I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.
IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.
It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.
Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.
The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.
Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.
Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).
Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".
So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.
Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.
They're different things.
Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?
LA weaving is a subset of AC.
And if you say "at most", it's not cherry-picking when I show you a contrary example, regardless of the class I pick. And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't use LAs at all if I couldn't AC them, but LAs generally do less damage than a single skill, so the % difference would remain the same or be even greater if I started replacing skills with non-cancellable LAs.
I DON'T CONSIDER LA WEAVING TO BE ANIMATION CANCELING. The 5% I give is from ACTUAL ANIMATION CANCELING!!!
besides get rid of AC and you won't even be able to block if you're in the middle of a channel when an add or boss decides to attack you. It was literally kill the reactive combat in the game.
Honestly, if you want auto attacks with just casting skills go play one of the other dozens of MMOs that are built that way. You have a choice. There's not much choice for those of us who like this game for what it is because of how the combat currently is.
Blocking or dodging doesn't increase your DPS on a dummy. Putting LAs on the GCD wouldn't affect it at all.
P.S. If you are going to come into the discussion with an alternative definition of certain terms, you should write out the definition of those terms. People can't read your mind about what you "consider" to be those terms. Because "animation cancelling" implies (drum roll) cancelling an animation, and that's exactly what happens when doing LA weaving. By not doing it your contribution to the thread instantly becomes a waste of screen space.
All my fault for not being explicitly clear! I hope you can see that you're doing the same thing!
2 button presses a second is already slow. You want 1. Got it. No further explanation needed. If I want a turn-based game, I'll go play Civ VI. I like dynamic, reactive, engaging combat from something that requires some skill and practice to master.
That said, this is like beating a dead horse. It's in the game, the devs have said it's intended. They have given it their blessing. They do it themselves (albeit poorly) when they stream the game. When about 3 out of 4 people like it the way it is based on this (admittingly unscientific) poll, I don't forsee changes coming to this particular mechanic.
Now, the changes they're proposing for the PTS are going to make it EVEN MORE essential to LA weave to sustain, particularly for low-tier and mid-tier players (and healers and tanks), so better start practicing on that dummy, thankfully I already did so, to try and be the best possible healer that I could be!
Because if you enjoy something, and you want to be good at it... you actually practice it and learn how to do a skill!!!
I already explicitly said that I don't care about how many button presses there are in a second. I just don't want to have to press 2 buttons every time I activate a skill. I don't have a problem with GCD being lowered to 0.5s to give you your much desired 2 button presses per second, but I'd much prefer pressing different buttons, not always the same one.
You don't even realize what would happen if abilities GCD would be lowered to 0,5 sec.
Who's against "fast paced" combat now?
Oh so You also don't realize what fast paced combat means in ESO. Nice.
And when I said You don't realize what would happen after lowering GCD to 0,5 sec I wasn't talking only about how speed of the combat would change.Edited by Juhasow on April 7, 2020 4:47AM1 -
Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, the skill gap is fine.A rotation is just playing simon except you are rewarded for your timing. Some people practice that and some dont. If this is the skill gap in question, I dont think that reaching that ceiling is impossible.1 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedBXR_Lonestar wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.
I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.
IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.
It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.
Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.
The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.
Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.
Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).
Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".
So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.
Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.
They're different things.
Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?
LA weaving is a subset of AC.
And if you say "at most", it's not cherry-picking when I show you a contrary example, regardless of the class I pick. And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't use LAs at all if I couldn't AC them, but LAs generally do less damage than a single skill, so the % difference would remain the same or be even greater if I started replacing skills with non-cancellable LAs.
I DON'T CONSIDER LA WEAVING TO BE ANIMATION CANCELING. The 5% I give is from ACTUAL ANIMATION CANCELING!!!
besides get rid of AC and you won't even be able to block if you're in the middle of a channel when an add or boss decides to attack you. It was literally kill the reactive combat in the game.
Honestly, if you want auto attacks with just casting skills go play one of the other dozens of MMOs that are built that way. You have a choice. There's not much choice for those of us who like this game for what it is because of how the combat currently is.
Blocking or dodging doesn't increase your DPS on a dummy. Putting LAs on the GCD wouldn't affect it at all.
P.S. If you are going to come into the discussion with an alternative definition of certain terms, you should write out the definition of those terms. People can't read your mind about what you "consider" to be those terms. Because "animation cancelling" implies (drum roll) cancelling an animation, and that's exactly what happens when doing LA weaving. By not doing it your contribution to the thread instantly becomes a waste of screen space.
All my fault for not being explicitly clear! I hope you can see that you're doing the same thing!
2 button presses a second is already slow. You want 1. Got it. No further explanation needed. If I want a turn-based game, I'll go play Civ VI. I like dynamic, reactive, engaging combat from something that requires some skill and practice to master.
That said, this is like beating a dead horse. It's in the game, the devs have said it's intended. They have given it their blessing. They do it themselves (albeit poorly) when they stream the game. When about 3 out of 4 people like it the way it is based on this (admittingly unscientific) poll, I don't forsee changes coming to this particular mechanic.
Now, the changes they're proposing for the PTS are going to make it EVEN MORE essential to LA weave to sustain, particularly for low-tier and mid-tier players (and healers and tanks), so better start practicing on that dummy, thankfully I already did so, to try and be the best possible healer that I could be!
Because if you enjoy something, and you want to be good at it... you actually practice it and learn how to do a skill!!!
I already explicitly said that I don't care about how many button presses there are in a second. I just don't want to have to press 2 buttons every time I activate a skill. I don't have a problem with GCD being lowered to 0.5s to give you your much desired 2 button presses per second, but I'd much prefer pressing different buttons, not always the same one.
You don't even realize what would happen if abilities GCD would be lowered to 0,5 sec.
Who's against "fast paced" combat now?
Oh so You also don't realize what fast paced combat means in ESO. Nice.
And when I said You don't realize what would happen after lowering GCD to 0,5 sec I wasn't talking only about how speed of the combat would change.
I do know what "fast paced combat" means, and I know that having to click before using a skill isn't it, because the rate at which you have to make decisions doesn't change. LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action.
This is the compromise solution for those who reject putting LAs on the GCD with the excuse "1 button a second is slow". With the GCD at 0.5s and LAs on the GCD people would experience what 2 actions per second actually means. I'm ready for this pace, but are the people who are actually demanding 2 actions per second?Edited by ZeroXFF on April 7, 2020 6:07AM2 -
eso_lags✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.
I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.
IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.
It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.
Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.
The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.
Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.
Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).
Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".
So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.
Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.
They're different things.
Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?
LA weaving is a subset of AC.
And if you say "at most", it's not cherry-picking when I show you a contrary example, regardless of the class I pick. And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't use LAs at all if I couldn't AC them, but LAs generally do less damage than a single skill, so the % difference would remain the same or be even greater if I started replacing skills with non-cancellable LAs.
I DON'T CONSIDER LA WEAVING TO BE ANIMATION CANCELING. The 5% I give is from ACTUAL ANIMATION CANCELING!!!
besides get rid of AC and you won't even be able to block if you're in the middle of a channel when an add or boss decides to attack you. It was literally kill the reactive combat in the game.
Honestly, if you want auto attacks with just casting skills go play one of the other dozens of MMOs that are built that way. You have a choice. There's not much choice for those of us who like this game for what it is because of how the combat currently is.
Blocking or dodging doesn't increase your DPS on a dummy. Putting LAs on the GCD wouldn't affect it at all.
P.S. If you are going to come into the discussion with an alternative definition of certain terms, you should write out the definition of those terms. People can't read your mind about what you "consider" to be those terms. Because "animation cancelling" implies (drum roll) cancelling an animation, and that's exactly what happens when doing LA weaving. By not doing it your contribution to the thread instantly becomes a waste of screen space.
All my fault for not being explicitly clear! I hope you can see that you're doing the same thing!
2 button presses a second is already slow. You want 1. Got it. No further explanation needed. If I want a turn-based game, I'll go play Civ VI. I like dynamic, reactive, engaging combat from something that requires some skill and practice to master.
That said, this is like beating a dead horse. It's in the game, the devs have said it's intended. They have given it their blessing. They do it themselves (albeit poorly) when they stream the game. When about 3 out of 4 people like it the way it is based on this (admittingly unscientific) poll, I don't forsee changes coming to this particular mechanic.
Now, the changes they're proposing for the PTS are going to make it EVEN MORE essential to LA weave to sustain, particularly for low-tier and mid-tier players (and healers and tanks), so better start practicing on that dummy, thankfully I already did so, to try and be the best possible healer that I could be!
Because if you enjoy something, and you want to be good at it... you actually practice it and learn how to do a skill!!!
I already explicitly said that I don't care about how many button presses there are in a second. I just don't want to have to press 2 buttons every time I activate a skill. I don't have a problem with GCD being lowered to 0.5s to give you your much desired 2 button presses per second, but I'd much prefer pressing different buttons, not always the same one.
You don't even realize what would happen if abilities GCD would be lowered to 0,5 sec.
Who's against "fast paced" combat now?
Oh so You also don't realize what fast paced combat means in ESO. Nice.
And when I said You don't realize what would happen after lowering GCD to 0,5 sec I wasn't talking only about how speed of the combat would change.
I do know what "fast paced combat" means, and I know that having to click before using a skill isn't it, because the rate at which you have to make decisions doesn't change. LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action.
This is the compromise solution for those who reject putting LAs on the GCD with the excuse "1 button a second is slow". With the GCD at 0.5s and LAs on the GCD people would experience what 2 actions per second actually means. I'm ready for this pace, but are the people who are actually demanding 2 actions per second?
Do any of you think of pvp, or even console, when you are making this stuff up? Just answer a couple questions if you wouldnt mind. Think about it and honestly.
Why do think zos should change the combat in a game that has been out for 6 years? Where the combat has pretty much been the same the entire time. And why do you think its okay to make the game easier for people who dont why to try as hard? Why should it matter to you if certain players want to play faster than you?
No matter what way you try to explain it, when zos says they think the skill gap is too high, and they want to change things so lower APM players do more damage, that its making the game easier for players who do not or cannot try as hard as other players do. That is the result and the message, and that is ridiculous.
And Im not even saying I disagree with the proposed changes. I 1000% disagree with the message of "dont get better, we'll just make it easier for you". I also think the reasoning is incredibly stupid and is going to negatively impact pvp. Just like the god awful changes to block.
If you want slow clunky combat I understand, but there are other games to find it. This is a fast paced game, it always has been, and anyone can do good. Its just a matter of not being lazy.3 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedBXR_Lonestar wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Just IMO, but the ability to flawlessly execute animation cancelling should be SECONDARY to the ability to flawlessly execute raid/dungeon mechanics. However, the tuning of the game is such that there are some hard DPS checks where you literally cannot survive unless you meet a minimum DPS threshhold, and in other places, you can simply bypass mechanics by overwhelming DPS. This has fueled the idea that the only skill that matters is being able to flawlessly execute animation cancelling in your rotation, and quite frankly, the game is worse off for it. Its the cause of a lot of toxicity in "higher end" groups and it serves to discourage a lot of people from even trying to complete the higher end content.
I've got a full time job. I don't have time to spend multiple hours in front of a dummy to try to eek out an extra 5-6k DPS or to perfect my animation cancelling. I'd rather spend that time actually playing through content. That shouldn't serve as a bar to actually completing difficult content - if I'm able to flawlessly execute the dungeon/trial's mechanics. Which I've been able to do with my core team on some of the games hardest DLC dungeons.
IMO, it makes a lot more sense to get rid of the animation cancelling so that two people running the same race/class/build are turning out equal DPS. Then the skill that will distinguish the two is the skill to flawlessly negotiate mechanics, rather than the ability to flawlessly execute their rotations with animation cancelling.
It still doesnt make sense that just because People have similar builds they should do similar dps. The one actually executing the build better should still be rewarded or do you intend for all rotations to be automated so that execution of the Rotation doesnt matter?
I'd actually agree that execution of rotation should play a part in DPS variation but I don't think that variation based on ability to execute animation cancelling should be the cause for that. Keeping DoT's up, AoE's, and timing of executing sustain mechanics? All fair and should result in different DPS if we hold other factors equal. But the execution of animation cancelling is creating a performance gap in endgame content that, IMO, is impermissible and makes it difficult to make any content that is both 1) challenging enough to satisfy the hardcore and 2) that is also accessible to a broader spectrum of the player base.
Your ability to make it through that content should be determined MORE on your ability to negotiate the mechanics and less on your ability to hit a specific DPS number. DPS checks are fair in certain contexts, as described above where DPS difference is based on ability/inability to sustain damage output, but not so when they are so high that they require a person/group to do animation cancelling flawlessly in order to pass those DPS checks.
Why is this claim always made? Unless you are literally talking about Godslayer achievement. Then this is patently false. AC is literally a 5% (at most) dps boost. It doesn't make or break your ability to do content.
The MASSIVE majority is what you describe. Ability to execute your rotation (not overcasting DoTs, etc...) ability to stay alive while still doing that rotation, and knowing what you need to do.
Do that well, and you can do 99%+ of the content in the game.
Well, in this parse it's over 27% which would be a difference between 75k and 54k on the 21M dummy, if it was even sustainable without AC due to mechanics tied to LA weaving and the increased duration of the fight because of low DPS (which would mean sacrificing damage stats for sustain, dropping the DPS even lower).
Also, I'm looking at just LA animation cancelling here in the above calculation. Add to it at least 2 bar swaps per 10s rotation (actually an average of 3 with what I was doing here), and you get down from "good enough for everything" to "too low for vAA hm unless the healers are literal gods".
So no, it's not 5% at most. Here you see a case where it's at least 27%, but actually probably close to 40%.
Good. I was talking about animation canceling. Not Light Attack weaving.
They're different things.
Also. You're going to pick the class that is most dependent upon light attack damage to make that comparison. You're going to make the false claim that you wouldn't light attack at all otherwise (or replace it with heavy attacks). Good job cherry picking data. You can't seriously believe this to be the case, can you?
LA weaving is a subset of AC.
And if you say "at most", it's not cherry-picking when I show you a contrary example, regardless of the class I pick. And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't use LAs at all if I couldn't AC them, but LAs generally do less damage than a single skill, so the % difference would remain the same or be even greater if I started replacing skills with non-cancellable LAs.
I DON'T CONSIDER LA WEAVING TO BE ANIMATION CANCELING. The 5% I give is from ACTUAL ANIMATION CANCELING!!!
besides get rid of AC and you won't even be able to block if you're in the middle of a channel when an add or boss decides to attack you. It was literally kill the reactive combat in the game.
Honestly, if you want auto attacks with just casting skills go play one of the other dozens of MMOs that are built that way. You have a choice. There's not much choice for those of us who like this game for what it is because of how the combat currently is.
Blocking or dodging doesn't increase your DPS on a dummy. Putting LAs on the GCD wouldn't affect it at all.
P.S. If you are going to come into the discussion with an alternative definition of certain terms, you should write out the definition of those terms. People can't read your mind about what you "consider" to be those terms. Because "animation cancelling" implies (drum roll) cancelling an animation, and that's exactly what happens when doing LA weaving. By not doing it your contribution to the thread instantly becomes a waste of screen space.
All my fault for not being explicitly clear! I hope you can see that you're doing the same thing!
2 button presses a second is already slow. You want 1. Got it. No further explanation needed. If I want a turn-based game, I'll go play Civ VI. I like dynamic, reactive, engaging combat from something that requires some skill and practice to master.
That said, this is like beating a dead horse. It's in the game, the devs have said it's intended. They have given it their blessing. They do it themselves (albeit poorly) when they stream the game. When about 3 out of 4 people like it the way it is based on this (admittingly unscientific) poll, I don't forsee changes coming to this particular mechanic.
Now, the changes they're proposing for the PTS are going to make it EVEN MORE essential to LA weave to sustain, particularly for low-tier and mid-tier players (and healers and tanks), so better start practicing on that dummy, thankfully I already did so, to try and be the best possible healer that I could be!
Because if you enjoy something, and you want to be good at it... you actually practice it and learn how to do a skill!!!
I already explicitly said that I don't care about how many button presses there are in a second. I just don't want to have to press 2 buttons every time I activate a skill. I don't have a problem with GCD being lowered to 0.5s to give you your much desired 2 button presses per second, but I'd much prefer pressing different buttons, not always the same one.
You don't even realize what would happen if abilities GCD would be lowered to 0,5 sec.
Who's against "fast paced" combat now?
Oh so You also don't realize what fast paced combat means in ESO. Nice.
And when I said You don't realize what would happen after lowering GCD to 0,5 sec I wasn't talking only about how speed of the combat would change.
I do know what "fast paced combat" means, and I know that having to click before using a skill isn't it, because the rate at which you have to make decisions doesn't change. LAs become part of the keybind for the skill and in terms of brain power involved do not add an action.
This is the compromise solution for those who reject putting LAs on the GCD with the excuse "1 button a second is slow". With the GCD at 0.5s and LAs on the GCD people would experience what 2 actions per second actually means. I'm ready for this pace, but are the people who are actually demanding 2 actions per second?
Do any of you think of pvp, or even console, when you are making this stuff up? Just answer a couple questions if you wouldnt mind. Think about it and honestly.
Why do think zos should change the combat in a game that has been out for 6 years? Where the combat has pretty much been the same the entire time. And why do you think its okay to make the game easier for people who dont why to try as hard? Why should it matter to you if certain players want to play faster than you?
No matter what way you try to explain it, when zos says they think the skill gap is too high, and they want to change things so lower APM players do more damage, that its making the game easier for players who do not or cannot try as hard as other players do. That is the result and the message, and that is ridiculous.
And Im not even saying I disagree with the proposed changes. I 1000% disagree with the message of "dont get better, we'll just make it easier for you". I also think the reasoning is incredibly stupid and is going to negatively impact pvp. Just like the god awful changes to block.
If you want slow clunky combat I understand, but there are other games to find it. This is a fast paced game, it always has been, and anyone can do good. Its just a matter of not being lazy.
How is lowering the GCD to 0.5 seconds but putting LAs on the GCD make it "slow" and "clunky"? If anything, you'll have true 2 actions per second rather than one with a complicated keybind.
But ok, let's go through your questions:
Why did they change it when it was out for 4 years? Or 3 years? Morrowind and Summerset happened too, you know. Why do they keep changing it every 3 months with sweeping balance changes? Well, I've got an answer for the last question: it's impossible to balance a game where the underlying mechanics are broken. And to answer your question directly: to fix a problem that should have been fixed during the beta in 2014 and ensure that the game becomes healthier in the future. You didn't complain when they fixed the ability to glitch through the doors in keeps (since you love PvP), even though it was a "feature" in the game for years too...Why do think zos should change the combat in a game that has been out for 6 years?
Because the gap between these people can exist without becoming as absurd as it is in ESO. By putting LAs on the GCD the gap will shrink by ~20%. But if you have ever been in a dungeon finder PUG, you'll know the difference is way bigger than 20%, and is more like 70%. Why are you not happy being twice as good as the "lazy" people, why does it have to be 3x? 2x is enough to show off your epeen. And the people who are half as good as you are paying customers too, so it's good business strategy to make sure they feel like they can achieve the goals they set for themselves. And considering that animation cancelling is the one expl..., I mean mechanic, that is the least intuitive to learn and the one doing most to make the game look broken, this is the one, the effects of which should be reduced.And why do you think its okay to make the game easier for people who dont why to try as hard?
Why should it matter to you that others can also complete the content that you are completing? Would you really stop enjoying it if others were doing it? I think that says more about you than about me.Why should it matter to you if certain players want to play faster than you?6
This discussion has been closed.