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• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – May 6, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
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The skill gap is too great due to twitch-based reflex type combat like weaving and animation cancel.
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.Edited by Jeremy on April 4, 2020 3:31PM2 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedSanguinor2 wrote: »
Merriam Webster or Cambridge Dictionaries hardly account for exploiting in Video games, but they define it as taking unfairly Advantage of something to gain something for yourself(among multiple other definitions that are not related to this Topic). Thats not Happening with LA weaving/AC.
I'm British, so English is my mother tongue.
In British English, exploiting something doesn't have to be a bad thing, or an illegal thing.
You can, for example, "exploit natural resources" by sticking a water wheel in a river...
Weaving/AC are exploits of an unintended mechanic.
They're obviously not illegal, or unallowed exploits - you're not breaking any rules by using them - but, it is still exploiting something that exists in the game and in this case, was not originally intended to be there.
Unlike the aforementioned river.Definitions with Video games in mind in multiple Forums or Wikipedia describe it as taking Advantage in a manner not intended by the devs, which is not the case since the game is coded with and around it and combat balancing is done with and around it. And the devs also repeatedly told us that they intend for us to use AC/LA weaving.
Yeah, I don't care very much about narrow definitions used in gaming only.
When people use it, in this context, they mean that people are using an, originally, unintended situation to their advantage.
They are right to use it in that way, so it would be wise for certain people to stop, endlessly, fixating on that choice of word and stick to the topic at hand.
Were those games designed to have a combat like Eso tho? I havent played many other MMOs but all other MMOs I played made combat around cooldowns and cast times when they had an Auto attack, which many, Zos included, do not want here.
Well, yes, but I would suggest playing some other MMOs, as that will give you a better overview of what is considered normal in most of them.
...and it's not weaving, because most of them, as you say, have auto-attack and have done for decades.
Sometimes you can switch it off, if you want, but most people don't, meaning the skill gap (all other things being equal) is less wide and is normally based mainly on things like gear, or even better than that, on actual skill.
Not simply tapping out an on>off rythym, every second and then imagining that is "skill" and that anyone, who doesn't rate it, or approve of it, can't do it.
When you could, almost certainly, train a rather dim Labrador to do it (if you had big enough buttons/keys), for goodness sake.
People in other MMOs laugh when you describe having to weave, here.
They're not impressed - they think it's funny and they are right to.Edited by Tigerseye on April 4, 2020 4:05PM11 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedDusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
what is it with people like you who think this game needs to be like all others?
If it wants to retain players, it needs to be as good, or better, than all the others.
That's market choice for you.5 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.Sanguinor2 wrote: »
No, it's not.
Look up the definition of exploit (in a proper dictionary!).
Merriam Webster or Cambridge Dictionaries hardly account for exploiting in Video games, but they define it as taking unfairly Advantage of something to gain something for yourself(among multiple other definitions that are not related to this Topic). Thats not Happening with LA weaving/AC.
Definitions with Video games in mind in multiple Forums or Wikipedia describe it as taking Advantage in a manner not intended by the devs, which is not the case since the game is coded with and around it and combat balancing is done with and around it. And the devs also repeatedly told us that they intend for us to use AC/LA weaving.Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Were those games designed to have a combat like Eso tho? I havent played many other MMOs but all other MMOs I played made combat around cooldowns and cast times when they had an Auto attack, which many, Zos included, do not want here.
Well, yes, but I would suggest playing some other MMOs, as that will give you a better overview of what is considered normal in most of them.
...and it's not weaving, because most of them, as you say, have auto-attack and have done for decades.
Sometimes you can switch it off, if you want, but most people don't, meaning the skill gap (all other things being equal) is less wide and is normally based mainly on things like gear, or even better than that, on actual skill.
Not simply tapping out an on>off rythym, every second and then imagining that is "skill" and that anyone, who doesn't rate it, or approve of it, can't do it.
When you could, almost certainly, train a rather dim Labrador to do it (if you had big enough buttons/keys), for goodness sake.
People in other MMOs laugh when you describe having to weave, here.
They're not impressed - they think it's funny and they are right to.
So, again, your argument is
"It's always been done this way" so that ESO must conform and be just like everything else.
Got it.Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger61,215 achievement points9 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressed
You're absolutely right, it's not skillful, at all.
It's just stupid.
So, why do you care if it goes?4 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
what is it with people like you who think this game needs to be like all others?
If it wants to retain players, it needs to be as good, or better, than all the others.
That's market choice for you.
Then CHOOSE to leave. There must be plenty of other games for you to play, instead of trying to make this one a clone of all the others.Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger61,215 achievement points10 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »
No, it's not.
Look up the definition of exploit (in a proper dictionary!).
Merriam Webster or Cambridge Dictionaries hardly account for exploiting in Video games, but they define it as taking unfairly Advantage of something to gain something for yourself(among multiple other definitions that are not related to this Topic). Thats not Happening with LA weaving/AC.
Definitions with Video games in mind in multiple Forums or Wikipedia describe it as taking Advantage in a manner not intended by the devs, which is not the case since the game is coded with and around it and combat balancing is done with and around it. And the devs also repeatedly told us that they intend for us to use AC/LA weaving.Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Were those games designed to have a combat like Eso tho? I havent played many other MMOs but all other MMOs I played made combat around cooldowns and cast times when they had an Auto attack, which many, Zos included, do not want here.
Well, yes, but I would suggest playing some other MMOs, as that will give you a better overview of what is considered normal in most of them.
...and it's not weaving, because most of them, as you say, have auto-attack and have done for decades.
Sometimes you can switch it off, if you want, but most people don't, meaning the skill gap (all other things being equal) is less wide and is normally based mainly on things like gear, or even better than that, on actual skill.
Not simply tapping out an on>off rythym, every second and then imagining that is "skill" and that anyone, who doesn't rate it, or approve of it, can't do it.
When you could, almost certainly, train a rather dim Labrador to do it (if you had big enough buttons/keys), for goodness sake.
People in other MMOs laugh when you describe having to weave, here.
They're not impressed - they think it's funny and they are right to.
This is good idea and better than my macro suggestion. Just give players the option whether to turn on or off an auto attack feature. You turn it on - and your character automatically light attacks at regular intervals. Problem solved and the "skill gap" is narrowed.
These are solutions that would actually work and address the problem. But instead they come up with these cockamamie workarounds that do nothing but negatively affect the game play.
2 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedHas nothing to do with skill, anyone can learn how to animation cancel and my best many do it without realizing it. Fact is, many people avoid ESO because animation cancelling is a bug and should not be in the game. Real PvPers and real PvP tournaments would not even look at ESO because of it. That alone should be enough of a reason for everyone to want it removed.
Yep.2 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.4 -
Nanfoodle✭✭✭✭✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedHas nothing to do with skill, anyone can learn how to animation cancel and my best many do it without realizing it. Fact is, many people avoid ESO because animation cancelling is a bug and should not be in the game. Real PvPers and real PvP tournaments would not even look at ESO because of it. That alone should be enough of a reason for everyone to want it removed.
what's a "Real PvPer"? or a "real PvP" tournament?
If you have to ask...1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.
It depends on the macros being used. There is no disadvantage in using short macros that combine light attacks with skills, and yes - a lot of players do use them. I've used similar macros on other games myself - and they are helpful and advantageous.
But anyway, macro use is a real problem on this game and me saying that shouldn't offend you or take away from your feeling of accomplishment on the "harder content". So there is no reason for you to become defensive here. I'm not accusing you personally of using macros.
Edited by Jeremy on April 4, 2020 3:46PM4 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.Has nothing to do with skill, anyone can learn how to animation cancel and my best many do it without realizing it. Fact is, many people avoid ESO because animation cancelling is a bug and should not be in the game. Real PvPers and real PvP tournaments would not even look at ESO because of it. That alone should be enough of a reason for everyone to want it removed.
what's a "Real PvPer"? or a "real PvP" tournament?
If you have to ask...
You're talking about Fortnite aren't you? I knew it.Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger61,215 achievement points4 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, I think the skill gap is too great and should be addressedtmbrinks wrote:
Then CHOOSE to leave. There must be plenty of other games for you to play, instead of trying to make this one a clone of all the others.
lol, I'm not choosing to leave, because this is one thing I'm not happy with, while I am happy with most other things.
You can also choose to leave, if you want.Edited by Tigerseye on April 4, 2020 4:01PM4 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.If it wants to retain players, it needs to be as good, or better, than all the others.
That's market choice for you.
Or different. Why would you Play a WoW clone if you can Play WoW?[]
This is good idea and better than my macro suggestion. Just give players the option whether to turn on or off an auto attack feature. You turn it on - and your character automatically light attacks at regular intervals. Problem solved and the "skill gap" is narrowed.
These are solutions that would actually work and address the problem. But instead they come up with these cockamamie workarounds that do nothing but negatively affect the game play.
Zos does not only have the false solution, they even have the false Problem. Between Bottom and top the most significant is not the skillgap, but the Knowledge and build gap.
Those at the Bottom wouldnt even come close to the top even if they had a perfect LA Ratio, and the reason for that is that they dont know how Combat works, dont know how builds work, dont know the best abilities, the best gear, or even Fitting gear and abilities for what they want to do, they dont know how to best spread cp, dont know how to best build for enough Sustain while having enough Damage, dont know what a huge difference buffs and debuffs, Food, potions etc. make. That is the gap Zos Needs to target. Not the difference between "low and high APM".Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.10 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.tmbrinks wrote:
Then CHOOSE to leave. There must be plenty of other games for you to play, instead of trying to make this one a clone of all the others.
lol, I'm not choosing to leave, because this is one thing I'm not happy with, while I am happy with most other things.
You can also choose to leave, if you want.
I don't want to leave. I like the combat the way it is. I like that it's different than other MMOs.
Why does everything need to be the same?
Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger61,215 achievement points11 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.
How else would you become an elite? You dont become one from questing and playing casually, then you will never catch up and become an "elite". The elites practice their rotations, skills, make builds, do multiple trial runs for practice and communicates with their team almost every day so they can be the best.
As a pvp player you dont become an elite from copying someone elses build and playing badly, i used to be one of those players. I remember copying pvp builds from alcast not knowing why the sets were good and why he was using those abilities. Now, almost 3 years later and 3k hours played in the game i understand. Just. How. Bad. Alcast. Builds. Are. Sure, they work for beginners, but it will never perform the same as an experienced player making his own builds and playing around with different sets and skills. Once you begin buildcrafting, you start to learn how much mitigation, healing, damage and sustain your build needs and how you can min-max your build. (maximum damage possible while keeping the rest of your stats the same)
Im pretty sure they were using it in the context of elitism. I could be wrong, but that seemed to be the context. Its fine to become one of the elite through practice. But again, that wasnt the context it was being used in, imo.0 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.In my short journey in ESO so far I’ve gone from frantic button masher to a more patient better timed approach to playing the game. It has improved so much for me by being more methodical despite the fast paced feel of combat. That alone has made me understand the combat mechanics much better. It’s less guess work and also helps me to see better when to block, roll, dodge and keep my buffs up.
Pressing more buttons for the sake of pressing more buttons really can cause things to go sideways in battle too. An attack may not register or a skill may not fire because people are clicking too fast.
I’m playing on XB1 and have my skills mapped a certain way that makes logical sense on my controller for my play style. Thought admittedly I am using the standard controller and I feel like I will have more flexibility with a pro controller. Of course that will be another learning experience all together.2 -
D0PAMINE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.graybeardII wrote: »The game is what it is but I dont thing because I dont have the finger dexterity of a concert pianist I shoud some how be excluded from content. These old hand have seen a lot of abuse in 59 years. And no I dont want to be cared I want to earn my gear and monster helm's. I came here to run dungens and learn the mechanics not have to worry about how much DPS im doing all the darn time.
No one is advocating skipping mechanics. We simply want our fast paced combat that allows us to be as reactive as possible. I'm fine running content with those that are not as reactive and there are plenty of builds to use that do great damage without requiring LA weaving.
People will most likely wipe due to uninterruptible animations, block and bar swap not working, and mechanics being busted when you do them correctly. Right now, the game is limiting players while still having major issues.6 -
carlos424✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »Sometimes I can't help but feel anti-animation canceling peeps are the people that can't get the rotations down, get flustered, claim it has to be an exploit to do this, and then rage about cheaters instead of just accepting that they suck.
Actually, you almost certainly could help but feel that, you just choose not to.
Technically, it was an exploit of an unintended mechanic, which ZOS chose to "embrace", rather than find a proper fix for.
By "exploit", in this context, I don't mean the people doing it were doing something wrong.
Just that they had (innocently) stumbled across a (pretty obvious) loophole in the combat design and were, inevitably, using it to their (fairly massive) advantage.
Which means they were exploiting it...
Just because people call it what it is - an "exploit" - doesn't mean they think it's a nefarious exploit, that should have seen people using it be punished, or anything.
They're just, accurately, calling it what it, technically, is.
It’s hitting a freaking light attack before a skill. If you push the button for light attack and then push the button for a skill you will probably not see the full light attack animation unless you wait for a second or more. That’s literally all it is. If you press a skill and then bar swap, you will probably not see the full animation of the skill because you bar swapped. Uh oh, you just did animation cancelling. Why are people so bent out of shape about this? Most people probably already do it, and don’t even realize it.Edited by carlos424 on April 4, 2020 6:08PM9 -
Casul✭✭✭✭✭
✭graybeardII wrote: »Ok first I never said any thing about abusing any mechanic weaving and ac are part of the game. And I struggle with them daily. Around 24k on a 3m dummey if your interested. But if I was to show up in a vBrF with a 35k dps and a heavy attack rotation I'd be kicked after the first boss even if my dps was sufficient and you know it (oops that came out kinda harsh sorry) but there it is. As you said vet dungens can be done with less dps but theres (so much) emphases put on high dps that if your not flawless your not wanted even by guildys. The question was asked if I thought the gap is to big and I do.You say its easy to make 30 to 45k dps maybe for you who has 2 working hands Im not asking to all of a sudden be doing top dps,doing speed runs and hm no death that's not realistic im aking for the gap to close just enough for people like me to be wanted in vet runs not thought of as a flower picker.Oh and I could give a rip about leader boards and skins and weather or not your better than me my interest is making friends having fun runing the more challenging not the most challenging content and as stated before learning the dungon machines where Imo the real skill (should) lay not weather or not you can do 80k dps. Then maybe topics like this wouldn't get so hostile and the dungen finder would run a little more smothly
If You would show up in vBF with 35k DPS and heavy attack rotation and You would execute mechanics properly most of the people wouldn't care about Your DPS and how You're achieving it and You should know it. Lot of people thinks that they're excluded from harder content because of their DPS when in fact it's not true. Very often they're excluded from it because they're simply not ready for the mechanics that they'll meet there and the'll be dead very often. And despite that they're refusing to adjust their setups to fit their capabilities and they're choosing to brainlesly follow the meta despite the fact meta is not working for them.
I see lot of people with CP 200+ trying to farm zaan and persistently looking for group for vSSCP which is silly. Most of them is not fitted for wearing that monster set. Even top players are using it only in specific fights and those CP 200+ players want to make it their main monster set. They very often refuse to understand that meta setups are not for them and that they should use some begginer friendly things.
Those are the main reasons for the gap. Because lot of people simply cannot focus on doing damage (even smaller ones) while following mechanics at the same time and despite of that they want to get the best gear possible designed for more experienced players from the get go. It is in a sense a l2p issue that many people refuses to acknowledge and instead they're looking for various excuses like complaining about light attack weaving being the main reason they cannot comlete content.
I agree with this a lot. Knowledge of content and environmental awareness is a major selling point to me on someone's capabilities. If someone has stormproof it makes me feel significantly more confident in their ability to both carry out challenging content, as well as stick through it till the end.PvP needs more love.1 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.It takes about 10 minutes to learn weaving and doing it every time you enter combat it becomes second nature.
In terms of DPS, it is very important in trials. I don't agree it is for the rest of the content.
Pvp is about landing a combo i.e. as many skills landing at near enough the same time as possible.
The dungeons in this game can all be done easily if you learn the mechanics. I mainly PvP and probably do no more than 15 - 20k sustained DPS on any of my characters. I can also solo a lot of dungeons on vet with the same characters. A LOT of your "APM" should be moving out of stupid, blocking and utilising all of the other mechanics.
Weaving and animation cancelling has always been such a small element of learning this game. There has always been so much controversy surrounding both that it is considered way more important than it is. To take part in endgame yes you should probably learn it. Overland and dungeons it isn't necessary.7 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »If it wants to retain players, it needs to be as good, or better, than all the others.
That's market choice for you.
Or different. Why would you Play a WoW clone if you can Play WoW?[]
This is good idea and better than my macro suggestion. Just give players the option whether to turn on or off an auto attack feature. You turn it on - and your character automatically light attacks at regular intervals. Problem solved and the "skill gap" is narrowed.
These are solutions that would actually work and address the problem. But instead they come up with these cockamamie workarounds that do nothing but negatively affect the game play.
Zos does not only have the false solution, they even have the false Problem. Between Bottom and top the most significant is not the skillgap, but the Knowledge and build gap.
Those at the Bottom wouldnt even come close to the top even if they had a perfect LA Ratio, and the reason for that is that they dont know how Combat works, dont know how builds work, dont know the best abilities, the best gear, or even Fitting gear and abilities for what they want to do, they dont know how to best spread cp, dont know how to best build for enough Sustain while having enough Damage, dont know what a huge difference buffs and debuffs, Food, potions etc. make. That is the gap Zos Needs to target. Not the difference between "low and high APM".
Maybe. But this weaving/animation canceling thing has been an issue for years now. It would be worth it to add an auto attack just so that can end. Then everyone can see for themselves whether it was a significant factor or not. So either way, it would settle that particular debate and spare the game further (and damaging) changes to fix this problem, whether real or imaginary.Edited by Jeremy on April 4, 2020 6:32PM3 -
Wihuri✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.Maybe. But this weaving/animation canceling thing has been an issue for years now. It would be worth it to add an auto attack just so that can end. Then everyone can see for themselves whether it was a significant factor or not. So either way, it would settle that particular debate and spare the game further (and damaging) changes to fix this problem, whether real or imaginary.
Except it's not an issue. The fact that you can choose to heavy attack or light attack is a choice made by the player. Auto attack would not work in this game. Go play games that have auto attack if you want it. It's just not ESO.11 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Allowing the use of an unintended combat feature instead of ZOS calling it what it is -- an exploit of programming deficiency -- led this to this debacle. Probably the worst combat design decision they ever made. Their short-sightedness has had repercussions ever since and is slowly coming to a head now.
Would you prefer waiting every time a light attack goes off so that it can finish it's animation and then you would be able to activate an ability? So you would choose whether to use another light attack or use an ability? You think that would be a fun game?
Why is it always only a choice between Turd A and Turd B, with you people?
They designed the game wrong.
Most games of this type (not made by this company!) have auto-attack.
Therefore, weaving/AC isn't an issue in those games and it shouldn't be an issue here.
Well thank god this isn't most games because most MMOs have mind numbingly slowcombat. And eso isn't that. Get over it, stop trying to change the game into something it isn't and just learn to press abutton 2 times per second. It's not too fast at all.
Yeah, that's not going to happen, babe.
I'm free to have my own opinion and will continue to express it.
...and by the way, I do weave, as I have stated repeatedly before.
I just don't like messy, amateurish design.
I think the design is ok, it's just vulnerable to macro use which can give players unfair advantages over others.
Maybe it's time they just added in-game macros like other MMORPGs have. That way everyone would be able to attach light attacks onto all their abilities and effortlessly weave while jumping around in circles without missing a beat. That would be a better solution than the current one - which is going to do nothing but make the problem worse.
In hardest game end content macros can be actually disadventageous. And if You think that all You need to compete in harder content is creating a macro that would tie light attack to Your abilities then You're very wrong. That is why I highly doubt there is more then some tiny percent of more experienced players using macros. Yes there can be few but vast majority is clicking 1 button for 1 action because You're simply better that way in real content.
It depends on the macros being used. There is no disadvantage in using short macros that combine light attacks with skills, and yes - a lot of players do use them. I've used similar macros on other games myself - and they are helpful and advantageous.
But anyway, macro use is a real problem on this game and me saying that shouldn't offend you or take away from your feeling of accomplishment on the "harder content". So there is no reason for you to become defensive here. I'm not accusing you personally of using macros.
Well if You assume that You'll create multiple macros for multiple situations that You'll be dynamically switching inbetween during combat then at certain point managing Your macros wil be harder then light attack weaving. As for making la+skill macro is ESO it is disadventageous. How do You know lot of players is using them in ESO ? Any data behind Your claim ? Because from what knowledge I was able to gather rarely anyone is in hardest game end content is even considering macros as usefull or adventageous. They're just making players weaker because someone who cannot click fast can't think fast and someone who can;t think fast will simply die when things will not go as planned. Making Yourself weaker deliberately will not get You accomplishments in hardest content in ESO. Don't compare using macros in other games to using them in ESO. Comparison like that is out of context.
Macros are not real problem. Barely anyone is using them and those who are using them and I know of are usually average players with or without them. People beliving that macros are massively used in ESO game end content are problem because they refuse to acknowledge real reasons of skill qap between players.4 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.If light attacks happened automatically then you could literally afk over 95% of the content in the game.4 -
bearbelly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Having this same circular argument every week, all weekend, is... puh.
No minds are ever going to be changed on this topic... it's just the same tiresome responses, back-and-forth, ad nauseum, until the thread is closed.
Find a new drug, folks.4 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.Congrats ZOS. This is what happens when you cater to complainers. Three years ago these conversations didn’t happen - we’d discuss Sorc vs NB, actual balance stuff, etc.
You actually catered to the complainers and let down everyone who enjoyed ESO’s formerly fast-paced, fluid combat. The consequence - a divide in the community which has caused many long-time players to quit (rip pvp) and all sorts of ridiculous complaints to arise.
“ESO’s combat should’ve been like everyone else.” This game is 6 years old. If you do that it will cause the majority of longtime loyal players quit, as well as any other players who enjoyed the combat. However, if you don’t cater you will never hear the end of these complaints which are being popularized by players who don’t fully understand the implications of changes they as for. It’s a lose-lose and no matter what happens, the game has become exponentially worse over the years besides for lore lol.
Its unfortunate.
ESO is such a great game but the Dev team is thought of very poorly by its playerbase and I have to agree it’s for good reason. The only game I have ever played where most players dread to release of patch notes.
11 -
Guyle✭✭✭✭✭No, the skill gap is fine.No, people who put the time and effort into gitting gud shouldn't have that taken away from them because some ppl cant be bothered. You can be trash and still participate in 95% of the content this game has to offer. Do a little work, and you can basically do 99% of it.3
This discussion has been closed.