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Prevent the reign of terror we're about to experience
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pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »
They're referring to the skeleton itself as a "bomber." I don't know why they don't just call it a Blastbones. I also don't know how to solve the problem we're about to face, and the latest patch notes don't inspire much hope. Thank god the competitive integrity of vMA has been restored with that Iceheart nerf though, that's a change everyone's been wanting for years!Over the last 3 years that I have been avidly PvPing, I've seen bombers take on several identities and iterations, from the Magblade stealth bombers, to Magplar bat bombs, to stam burst bombs, to Sorc Overload bombers. The latest iteration is the Necro Harmony bomber, and they're everywhere. I'm not sure how you've missed them, but arguing over semantics isn't going to solve the problem we're about to face if this mess goes live.
Bomber has been used by the devs back when they first revealed the skill lines and it really shouldn't have been this hard to figure out what bombers could mean in regards of this post.
See the pictures on the first page
Well i can tell you one solution for one of the biggest issues next patch:
Remove major defile from blastbones
I got a better one, pick between 40k health and max resistances or 8k weapon damage.
Except that defiles and pressure doesnt prevent you from stacking both.3 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »TheBonesXXX wrote: »
Are you implying that face tank heal spam is good for the game? Yes I've adapted to it with NMA 7k WD, stall and burst, dropping all DoTs from my bars, etc... and as a result find the game profoundly less enjoyable than when we had tools like Bleeds and Defiles to directly counter said face tank heal spam. You're right though, "L2P issue" is not a valid argument, it has been an expression of frustration with several things repeated yet again below...For starters please refrain from using the L2P issue as ur argument. It doesnt make you look smart or good but quite the opposite. Unless you want me to use the L2P issue as an argument too. After all, you are also complaining here about face tank heal spam.
I've acknowledged multiple times that Defiles alone will not put the slightest dent in the Tank Meta, but must accompany restoring class and weapon DoTs, some form of Bleed mechanic that punishes resist stacking, and unfortunately probably nerfs to certain forms of mitigation and healing after that. I've even used this to illustrate why the Defile on Blastbones is nothing to be afraid of, as there are no viable forms of pressure damage that can take advantage of it.a face tank heal spam build... is somehow going to be countered by the defiles and going to have issues surviving. Right, makes perfect sense.
I'm getting very tired of "buffing damage and reducing healing will make the meta more tanky" because that's actually part of the point, if you force people to build more tanky (make more sacrifices to sustain, utility, and damage) in order to obtain the same level of braindead face tanking they previously enjoyed, those tanky builds are now far less efficient than before, and thus easier to kill for the player who enjoys simply having more damage, or easier to ignore because they've invested so much into being tanky that they can't effectively heal allies or burst anyone down.So what are defiles going to do, wait for it.......Yep you are absolutely right again, they will make people to build for tankiness.
They're trying to maintain their meta, they don't actually care about the health of the game.
Why won't you understand that major defile will make the meta even worse, it won't get any better and I've explained numerous times why it will change to the worse.
But here's the short version just for you:
Major defile increases killing potential without changing your build ---> you can invest more into survivability/ kill people with more survivability with no changes ---> everyone without major defile can't kill you and keeps losing to stamnecros ----> they start building to be able to survive against you ----> you are in a worse tank meta than before because now everything is shaped around 1 spec due to it having 100% major defile uptime.
I don't understand why you don't get that pressure builds are the answer.
For the same reason oblivion damage wasnt the answer to shieldstacking.4 -
Here, people like to use numbers when building arguments in their own direction, but sometimes they exaggerate and downplay them. You understand this is not quite true very big health and very big WD. Most likely in the end you sacrifice something.
The Stamcro set lacks Major Fracture, so it relies on Defile to create pressure, just as Stamcro lacks minor brutality as in the case of Stam DK. I also want to add that necro's passive abilities are not related to increasing damage. My opinion is that it's a good start to use Defile as a class identity. Maybe in the future, developers will be able to come up with new types of debuff thanks to this push, which they can implement in other classes.Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on February 4, 2020 7:40PM0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »Here, people like to use numbers when building arguments in their own direction, but sometimes they exaggerate and downplay them. You understand this is not quite true very big health and very big WD. Most likely in the end you sacrifice something.
The Stamcro set lacks Major Fracture, so it relies on Defile to create pressure, just as Stamcro lacks minor brutality as in the case of Stam DK. I want to add that necro's passive abilities are not related to increasing damage. My opinion is that it's a good start to use Defile as a class identity. Maybe in the future, developers will be able to come up with new types of debuff thanks to this push, which they can implement in other classes.
Major defile has nothing to do with class identity and comparing major defile with major fracture or minor brutality is just absurd3 -
Your right to think so. I don't compare Defile to Brutality.This was an example of the lack of Minor Brutality in the Stamcro set to achieve high WD.OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »Here, people like to use numbers when building arguments in their own direction, but sometimes they exaggerate and downplay them. You understand this is not quite true very big health and very big WD. Most likely in the end you sacrifice something.
The Stamcro set lacks Major Fracture, so it relies on Defile to create pressure, just as Stamcro lacks minor brutality as in the case of Stam DK. I want to add that necro's passive abilities are not related to increasing damage. My opinion is that it's a good start to use Defile as a class identity. Maybe in the future, developers will be able to come up with new types of debuff thanks to this push, which they can implement in other classes.
Major defile has nothing to do with class identity and comparing major defile with major fracture or minor brutality is just absurd
Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on February 4, 2020 7:50PM0 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »
They're referring to the skeleton itself as a "bomber." I don't know why they don't just call it a Blastbones. I also don't know how to solve the problem we're about to face, and the latest patch notes don't inspire much hope. Thank god the competitive integrity of vMA has been restored with that Iceheart nerf though, that's a change everyone's been wanting for years!Over the last 3 years that I have been avidly PvPing, I've seen bombers take on several identities and iterations, from the Magblade stealth bombers, to Magplar bat bombs, to stam burst bombs, to Sorc Overload bombers. The latest iteration is the Necro Harmony bomber, and they're everywhere. I'm not sure how you've missed them, but arguing over semantics isn't going to solve the problem we're about to face if this mess goes live.
Bomber has been used by the devs back when they first revealed the skill lines and it really shouldn't have been this hard to figure out what bombers could mean in regards of this post.
See the pictures on the first page
Well i can tell you one solution for one of the biggest issues next patch:
Remove major defile from blastbones
I got a better one, pick between 40k health and max resistances or 8k weapon damage.
Except that defiles and pressure doesnt prevent you from stacking both.
Pressure builds are in shambles as a result of players who complain without merit, just like the state of this game.
An until barrage of nerfs continued will not help anything and asking for more is hardly a palpable solution to the problem.
I don't care about old Oblivion damage, but bleeds should have received a functionality rework, not a damage Nerf and left to rot.
Anyone can line burst, it's easy. This meta just makes it so there's even less risk.
There are superior ways to get rid of tank meta instead of more Nerfs.0 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Necro should have never been given a purge. Everything else it has now (including Blast Bones buff) would be fine if Necro didn't also have purge that costs health on a class with massive healing/mitigation.
It costs under 2k health for a purge, that's absurd. Compare to 4k magicka Templar purge, throw in some free corpse heals/Major Protection and who do you think can purge more?Edited by WreckfulAbandon on February 5, 2020 1:20AMPC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP1 -
WreckfulAbandon wrote: »Necro should have never been given a purge. Everything else it has now (including Blast Bones buff) would be fine if Necro didn't also have purge that costs health on a class with massive healing/mitigation.
It costs under 2k health for a purge, that's absurd. Compare to 4k magicka Templar purge, throw in some free corpse heals/Major Protection and who do you think can purge more?
I think this is an interesting question, but it will be a bigger blow for Magro than for Stamcro. There is something to think about when it comes to purge. Cleansing costs 2k health and quietly cleanses Major Vulnerability which costs 225 ult and etc. It also doesn't work for a group, a very selfish skill. It can also be used nonstop.Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on February 5, 2020 8:54AM0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »TheBonesXXX wrote: »
They're referring to the skeleton itself as a "bomber." I don't know why they don't just call it a Blastbones. I also don't know how to solve the problem we're about to face, and the latest patch notes don't inspire much hope. Thank god the competitive integrity of vMA has been restored with that Iceheart nerf though, that's a change everyone's been wanting for years!Over the last 3 years that I have been avidly PvPing, I've seen bombers take on several identities and iterations, from the Magblade stealth bombers, to Magplar bat bombs, to stam burst bombs, to Sorc Overload bombers. The latest iteration is the Necro Harmony bomber, and they're everywhere. I'm not sure how you've missed them, but arguing over semantics isn't going to solve the problem we're about to face if this mess goes live.
Bomber has been used by the devs back when they first revealed the skill lines and it really shouldn't have been this hard to figure out what bombers could mean in regards of this post.
See the pictures on the first page
Well i can tell you one solution for one of the biggest issues next patch:
Remove major defile from blastbones
I got a better one, pick between 40k health and max resistances or 8k weapon damage.
Except that defiles and pressure doesnt prevent you from stacking both.
Pressure builds are in shambles as a result of players who complain without merit, just like the state of this game.
An until barrage of nerfs continued will not help anything and asking for more is hardly a palpable solution to the problem.
I don't care about old Oblivion damage, but bleeds should have received a functionality rework, not a damage Nerf and left to rot.
Anyone can line burst, it's easy. This meta just makes it so there's even less risk.
There are superior ways to get rid of tank meta instead of more Nerfs.
I know pressure builds are in shambles and I never said they shouldn't exist. Easily handed major defile and crap like oblivion damage and old bleeds ignoring resistances is not the answer however.
I find it ironic that you are complaining about how easy it is to line up bursts but at the same endorsing the old bleed oblivion dmg defile meta considering that it's exactly the same thing. Easy.
I'm not opposed to having access to major defile. But if you are telling that having it by default on ur spammables and burst abilities is somehow skilled or not easy then I call bs. I'm not opposed to pressure builds and damage over time in general but if you are telling me that dots ignoring resistances and ridiculously high dot tooltips are good for the game and skilled gameplay then I also call bs.
I know there are ways to solve the tank meta. Easily handed major defile, sky high dots and ignoring resistances most definitely won't do that however.2 -
Kalixte✭✭✭ABSURD tankiness + crazy healing + insane pressure and burst.
How can people be like: "Naaaaaah! It's fiiiiiiiine!"Edited by Kalixte on February 5, 2020 8:28AMPC/EU server3 -
Neloth✭✭✭✭Just give magicka version of blasbones dragon leap treatment on landing.
Boom, mag necro has a good stun, blastbones have a good secondary effect, while both DK #leapunique and magsorc #fragsdontstun communities are pissed - sounds perfect.
P.S. of course it should be able to leap into the keepsEdited by Neloth on February 5, 2020 9:56AM1 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »TheBonesXXX wrote: »
They're referring to the skeleton itself as a "bomber." I don't know why they don't just call it a Blastbones. I also don't know how to solve the problem we're about to face, and the latest patch notes don't inspire much hope. Thank god the competitive integrity of vMA has been restored with that Iceheart nerf though, that's a change everyone's been wanting for years!Over the last 3 years that I have been avidly PvPing, I've seen bombers take on several identities and iterations, from the Magblade stealth bombers, to Magplar bat bombs, to stam burst bombs, to Sorc Overload bombers. The latest iteration is the Necro Harmony bomber, and they're everywhere. I'm not sure how you've missed them, but arguing over semantics isn't going to solve the problem we're about to face if this mess goes live.
Bomber has been used by the devs back when they first revealed the skill lines and it really shouldn't have been this hard to figure out what bombers could mean in regards of this post.
See the pictures on the first page
Well i can tell you one solution for one of the biggest issues next patch:
Remove major defile from blastbones
I got a better one, pick between 40k health and max resistances or 8k weapon damage.
Except that defiles and pressure doesnt prevent you from stacking both.
Pressure builds are in shambles as a result of players who complain without merit, just like the state of this game.
An until barrage of nerfs continued will not help anything and asking for more is hardly a palpable solution to the problem.
I don't care about old Oblivion damage, but bleeds should have received a functionality rework, not a damage Nerf and left to rot.
Anyone can line burst, it's easy. This meta just makes it so there's even less risk.
There are superior ways to get rid of tank meta instead of more Nerfs.
I know pressure builds are in shambles and I never said they shouldn't exist. Easily handed major defile and crap like oblivion damage and old bleeds ignoring resistances is not the answer however.
I find it ironic that you are complaining about how easy it is to line up bursts but at the same endorsing the old bleed oblivion dmg defile meta considering that it's exactly the same thing. Easy.
I'm not opposed to having access to major defile. But if you are telling that having it by default on ur spammables and burst abilities is somehow skilled or not easy then I call bs. I'm not opposed to pressure builds and damage over time in general but if you are telling me that dots ignoring resistances and ridiculously high dot tooltips are good for the game and skilled gameplay then I also call bs.
I know there are ways to solve the tank meta. Easily handed major defile, sky high dots and ignoring resistances most definitely won't do that however.
I think you misread, I said I don't care about Oblivion damage, it being changed is fine.
Bleeds should have received a rework and all dots should function different.
Pressure builds should start with Rapid/Bloodthirst/Jabs, dots aren't direct pressure, they're indirect pressure and be in support of.
I never once complained above burst being easy, I stated a fact. 6-8k weapon damage max, max resistances, and 40k health doesn't exactly make a burst line difficult. If that weren't tree every meta thumper and their gulidie wouldn't be doing it.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »TheBonesXXX wrote: »TheBonesXXX wrote: »
They're referring to the skeleton itself as a "bomber." I don't know why they don't just call it a Blastbones. I also don't know how to solve the problem we're about to face, and the latest patch notes don't inspire much hope. Thank god the competitive integrity of vMA has been restored with that Iceheart nerf though, that's a change everyone's been wanting for years!Over the last 3 years that I have been avidly PvPing, I've seen bombers take on several identities and iterations, from the Magblade stealth bombers, to Magplar bat bombs, to stam burst bombs, to Sorc Overload bombers. The latest iteration is the Necro Harmony bomber, and they're everywhere. I'm not sure how you've missed them, but arguing over semantics isn't going to solve the problem we're about to face if this mess goes live.
Bomber has been used by the devs back when they first revealed the skill lines and it really shouldn't have been this hard to figure out what bombers could mean in regards of this post.
See the pictures on the first page
Well i can tell you one solution for one of the biggest issues next patch:
Remove major defile from blastbones
I got a better one, pick between 40k health and max resistances or 8k weapon damage.
Except that defiles and pressure doesnt prevent you from stacking both.
Pressure builds are in shambles as a result of players who complain without merit, just like the state of this game.
An until barrage of nerfs continued will not help anything and asking for more is hardly a palpable solution to the problem.
I don't care about old Oblivion damage, but bleeds should have received a functionality rework, not a damage Nerf and left to rot.
Anyone can line burst, it's easy. This meta just makes it so there's even less risk.
There are superior ways to get rid of tank meta instead of more Nerfs.
I know pressure builds are in shambles and I never said they shouldn't exist. Easily handed major defile and crap like oblivion damage and old bleeds ignoring resistances is not the answer however.
I find it ironic that you are complaining about how easy it is to line up bursts but at the same endorsing the old bleed oblivion dmg defile meta considering that it's exactly the same thing. Easy.
I'm not opposed to having access to major defile. But if you are telling that having it by default on ur spammables and burst abilities is somehow skilled or not easy then I call bs. I'm not opposed to pressure builds and damage over time in general but if you are telling me that dots ignoring resistances and ridiculously high dot tooltips are good for the game and skilled gameplay then I also call bs.
I know there are ways to solve the tank meta. Easily handed major defile, sky high dots and ignoring resistances most definitely won't do that however.
I think you misread, I said I don't care about Oblivion damage, it being changed is fine.
Bleeds should have received a rework and all dots should function different.
Pressure builds should start with Rapid/Bloodthirst/Jabs, dots aren't direct pressure, they're indirect pressure and be in support of.
I never once complained above burst being easy, I stated a fact. 6-8k weapon damage max, max resistances, and 40k health doesn't exactly make a burst line difficult. If that weren't tree every meta thumper and their gulidie wouldn't be doing it.
Except that the topic is about easily handed major defile with very high uptime. Not about pressure builds not existing. That's why I told you, if you are endorsing easily handed defiles then at least don't make an argument about easy burst cause it's literally the exact same crap. It's not difficult nor skilled to "pressure" people with defiles when it's literally handed to you by default just by using ur burst abilities.1 -
Axx_Xa✭✭✭Laughing at Templar that are scared of sharing first place at OP top tier. Seriously !? you’ll find a way to up heal any damage even with major defile.2 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭[...]
Except that the topic is about easily handed major defile with very high uptime. Not about pressure builds not existing. That's why I told you, if you are endorsing easily handed defiles then at least don't make an argument about easy burst cause it's literally the exact same crap. It's not difficult nor skilled to "pressure" people with defiles when it's literally handed to you by default just by using ur burst abilities.
This man gets it. We have already been there. Oblivion damage, bleeds, defiles, DoTs - all those thing were meant to counter tanky play style and failed. Claiming that anyone should have as easy access to such powerful debuff as defile is wrong, but adding major defile as a SECONDARY effect to skill like blastbones is just madness. ZOS removed it from Incap (an ultimate!!!!) and placed it on spamable skill that is cheap, aoe, ranged, undodgeable and hits almost as hard as Incap? Yeah... Totally balanced... LOL!
But you have to sell those upgrades somehow
Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge1 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭[...]
Except that the topic is about easily handed major defile with very high uptime. Not about pressure builds not existing. That's why I told you, if you are endorsing easily handed defiles then at least don't make an argument about easy burst cause it's literally the exact same crap. It's not difficult nor skilled to "pressure" people with defiles when it's literally handed to you by default just by using ur burst abilities.
This man gets it. We have already been there. Oblivion damage, bleeds, defiles, DoTs - all those thing were meant to counter tanky play style and failed. Claiming that anyone should have as easy access to such powerful debuff as defile is wrong, but adding major defile as a SECONDARY effect to skill like blastbones is just madness. ZOS removed it from Incap (an ultimate!!!!) and placed it on spamable skill that is cheap, aoe, ranged, undodgeable and hits almost as hard as Incap? Yeah... Totally balanced... LOL!
But you have to sell those upgrades somehow
Don't agree, the implementation was poor, it sucked for you all, I like my pressure builds actually functioning.
Comparing incap to Blastbones in two different iterations doesn't work, the power creep and scaling is not the same.
I get your point, I dont agree. I'm not saying pressure to just to counter tanky, pressure is a legit playstyle just like any other.
It shouldn't be second to burst, it should go toe to toe with it. Just as optimal and efficient.
0 -
You guys really like to get into the controversy around the topic of Stamcro. How evasively people ignore the facts of the lack of many effects in the Stamcro set - Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Major Savagery, Major Fracture. Again, this is not a comparison with Defile it is a review of the Stamcro kit as a whole. First of all, please describe what Stamcro should be like if you delete Defile from it or what you can give It in return.0
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xylena✭✭✭✭✭Now it's degenerated into "Defiles don't kill tanks but nerf Defiles and also Stamcro." Put this thread out of its misery.Retired until we break the Tank Meta2 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »You guys really like to get into the controversy around the topic of Stamcro. How evasively people ignore the facts of the lack of many effects in the Stamcro set - Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Major Savagery, Major Fracture. Again, this is not a comparison with Defile it is a review of the Stamcro kit as a whole. First of all, please describe what Stamcro should be like if you delete Defile from it or what you can give It in return.
Major Brutality - obviously always up from Rally
Major Savagery+Minor Berserk+3%WD - camouflaged hunter
Minor Brutality - DK group buff, can be provided to stamcro in smallscale, organized group or pug
Major Fracture - yes, this is notable downside... but stamplar&stamsorc lacks them as well, stamNB has it on ability which does nothing else1 -
MartiniDaniels wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »You guys really like to get into the controversy around the topic of Stamcro. How evasively people ignore the facts of the lack of many effects in the Stamcro set - Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Major Savagery, Major Fracture. Again, this is not a comparison with Defile it is a review of the Stamcro kit as a whole. First of all, please describe what Stamcro should be like if you delete Defile from it or what you can give It in return.
Major Brutality - obviously always up from Rally
Major Savagery+Minor Berserk+3%WD - camouflaged hunter
Minor Brutality - DK group buff, can be provided to stamcro in smallscale, organized group or pug
Major Fracture - yes, this is notable downside... but stamplar&stamsorc lacks them as well, stamNB has it on ability which does nothing else
Yes I know, but I'm talking about the Stamcro kit if you delete Defile it will just be ability with power nothing more.Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on February 5, 2020 2:37PM0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »You guys really like to get into the controversy around the topic of Stamcro. How evasively people ignore the facts of the lack of many effects in the Stamcro set - Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Major Savagery, Major Fracture. Again, this is not a comparison with Defile it is a review of the Stamcro kit as a whole. First of all, please describe what Stamcro should be like if you delete Defile from it or what you can give It in return.
Major Brutality - obviously always up from Rally
Major Savagery+Minor Berserk+3%WD - camouflaged hunter
Minor Brutality - DK group buff, can be provided to stamcro in smallscale, organized group or pug
Major Fracture - yes, this is notable downside... but stamplar&stamsorc lacks them as well, stamNB has it on ability which does nothing else
Yes I know, but I'm talking about the Stamcro kit if you delete Defile it will just be abilities with power nothing more.
1k cost, undodgeable, not avoided by LOS, AOE bomb with damage just slightly less then spectral bow/frags... This change made me to switch to S&B backbar. I have zero idea how to fight new blastbones if you can't hard block them. All things I usually relied on 2H/bow - speed, roll-dodge, free cc with heavy attack on off-balance (to stamcro not to BB ofc).. all of this won't work in new patch.
I mean Defile is just an icing on cake which will prevent another method of protection - healing. I don't see any other counter to new BB as to block them with as higher mitigation as possible, which of course comes from S&B block+major evasion.Edited by MartiniDaniels on February 5, 2020 2:40PM2 -
MartiniDaniels wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »You guys really like to get into the controversy around the topic of Stamcro. How evasively people ignore the facts of the lack of many effects in the Stamcro set - Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Major Savagery, Major Fracture. Again, this is not a comparison with Defile it is a review of the Stamcro kit as a whole. First of all, please describe what Stamcro should be like if you delete Defile from it or what you can give It in return.
Major Brutality - obviously always up from Rally
Major Savagery+Minor Berserk+3%WD - camouflaged hunter
Minor Brutality - DK group buff, can be provided to stamcro in smallscale, organized group or pug
Major Fracture - yes, this is notable downside... but stamplar&stamsorc lacks them as well, stamNB has it on ability which does nothing else
Yes I know, but I'm talking about the Stamcro kit if you delete Defile it will just be abilities with power nothing more.
1k cost, undodgeable, not avoided by LOS, AOE bomb with damage just slightly less then spectral bow/frags... This change made me to switch to S&B backbar. I have zero idea how to fight new blastbones if you can't hard block them. All things I usually relied on 2H/bow - speed, roll-dodge, free cc with heavy attack on off-balance (to stamcro not to BB ofc).. all of this won't work in new patch.
I mean Defile is just an icing on cake which will prevent another method of protection - healing. I don't see any other counter to new BB as to block them with as higher mitigation as possible, which of course comes from S&B block+major evasion.
I like live sneaking blastbones better, of course, if geo data worked well, it would be even better. My suggestion has already been voiced here if Defile gets out of control leave the live blastbones version only for Stamcro. In consequence of this, Magro will get a blastbones morph that jumps from a distance. I liked how my friend on DK used the jump thanks to sneaking blastbones + defile. For me, changes of this kind are killing potential possible combinations.Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on February 5, 2020 2:58PM1 -
iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »You guys really like to get into the controversy around the topic of Stamcro. How evasively people ignore the facts of the lack of many effects in the Stamcro set - Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Major Savagery, Major Fracture. Again, this is not a comparison with Defile it is a review of the Stamcro kit as a whole. First of all, please describe what Stamcro should be like if you delete Defile from it or what you can give It in return.
Major Brutality - obviously always up from Rally
Major Savagery+Minor Berserk+3%WD - camouflaged hunter
Minor Brutality - DK group buff, can be provided to stamcro in smallscale, organized group or pug
Major Fracture - yes, this is notable downside... but stamplar&stamsorc lacks them as well, stamNB has it on ability which does nothing else
Yes I know, but I'm talking about the Stamcro kit if you delete Defile it will just be abilities with power nothing more.
1k cost, undodgeable, not avoided by LOS, AOE bomb with damage just slightly less then spectral bow/frags... This change made me to switch to S&B backbar. I have zero idea how to fight new blastbones if you can't hard block them. All things I usually relied on 2H/bow - speed, roll-dodge, free cc with heavy attack on off-balance (to stamcro not to BB ofc).. all of this won't work in new patch.
I mean Defile is just an icing on cake which will prevent another method of protection - healing. I don't see any other counter to new BB as to block them with as higher mitigation as possible, which of course comes from S&B block+major evasion.
The only counter to major defile is to stack effective healing or purge. Purge is available only to templar or warden.
Effective healing is given by stacking: mitigation, sword and board defenses. Ie, the tank meta.
Those are your only options. 100% uptime on major defile will make the tank meta worse. Mag players and non heavy armor players rely on healing instead of raw tankiness. Defile hits a damage dealer for much more than a tank. Anyone saying otherwise is ignorant3 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »You guys really like to get into the controversy around the topic of Stamcro. How evasively people ignore the facts of the lack of many effects in the Stamcro set - Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Major Savagery, Major Fracture. Again, this is not a comparison with Defile it is a review of the Stamcro kit as a whole. First of all, please describe what Stamcro should be like if you delete Defile from it or what you can give It in return.
Major Brutality - obviously always up from Rally
Major Savagery+Minor Berserk+3%WD - camouflaged hunter
Minor Brutality - DK group buff, can be provided to stamcro in smallscale, organized group or pug
Major Fracture - yes, this is notable downside... but stamplar&stamsorc lacks them as well, stamNB has it on ability which does nothing else
Yes I know, but I'm talking about the Stamcro kit if you delete Defile it will just be abilities with power nothing more.
1k cost, undodgeable, not avoided by LOS, AOE bomb with damage just slightly less then spectral bow/frags... This change made me to switch to S&B backbar. I have zero idea how to fight new blastbones if you can't hard block them. All things I usually relied on 2H/bow - speed, roll-dodge, free cc with heavy attack on off-balance (to stamcro not to BB ofc).. all of this won't work in new patch.
I mean Defile is just an icing on cake which will prevent another method of protection - healing. I don't see any other counter to new BB as to block them with as higher mitigation as possible, which of course comes from S&B block+major evasion.
I like live sneaking blastbones better, of course, if geo data worked well, it would be even better. My suggestion has already been voiced here if Defile gets out of control leave the live blastbones version only for Stamcro. In consequence of this, Magro will get a blastbones morph that jumps from a distance. I liked how my friend on DK used the jump thanks to sneaking blastbones + defile. For me, changes of this kind are killing potential possible combinations.
So because major defile is over tuned you want to make the skill unreliable rather than just removing major defile?
This game has seen enough clunky, unreliable skills in the past and there is absolutely no reasonable argument to make a skill clunky just to keep an overperforming part of it3 -
OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »You guys really like to get into the controversy around the topic of Stamcro. How evasively people ignore the facts of the lack of many effects in the Stamcro set - Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Major Savagery, Major Fracture. Again, this is not a comparison with Defile it is a review of the Stamcro kit as a whole. First of all, please describe what Stamcro should be like if you delete Defile from it or what you can give It in return.
Major Brutality - obviously always up from Rally
Major Savagery+Minor Berserk+3%WD - camouflaged hunter
Minor Brutality - DK group buff, can be provided to stamcro in smallscale, organized group or pug
Major Fracture - yes, this is notable downside... but stamplar&stamsorc lacks them as well, stamNB has it on ability which does nothing else
Yes I know, but I'm talking about the Stamcro kit if you delete Defile it will just be abilities with power nothing more.
1k cost, undodgeable, not avoided by LOS, AOE bomb with damage just slightly less then spectral bow/frags... This change made me to switch to S&B backbar. I have zero idea how to fight new blastbones if you can't hard block them. All things I usually relied on 2H/bow - speed, roll-dodge, free cc with heavy attack on off-balance (to stamcro not to BB ofc).. all of this won't work in new patch.
I mean Defile is just an icing on cake which will prevent another method of protection - healing. I don't see any other counter to new BB as to block them with as higher mitigation as possible, which of course comes from S&B block+major evasion.
I like live sneaking blastbones better, of course, if geo data worked well, it would be even better. My suggestion has already been voiced here if Defile gets out of control leave the live blastbones version only for Stamcro. In consequence of this, Magro will get a blastbones morph that jumps from a distance. I liked how my friend on DK used the jump thanks to sneaking blastbones + defile. For me, changes of this kind are killing potential possible combinations.
So because major defile is over tuned you want to make the skill unreliable rather than just removing major defile?
This game has seen enough clunky, unreliable skills in the past and there is absolutely no reasonable argument to make a skill clunky just to keep an overperforming part of it
No I think devs can do the right geo data in the future. Perhaps they chose an easier path and now they need to change the morph for Magcro. I don't consider Defile over tuned with a bad kit of Stamcro's own buff/debuff.Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on February 5, 2020 3:11PM0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »You guys really like to get into the controversy around the topic of Stamcro. How evasively people ignore the facts of the lack of many effects in the Stamcro set - Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Major Savagery, Major Fracture. Again, this is not a comparison with Defile it is a review of the Stamcro kit as a whole. First of all, please describe what Stamcro should be like if you delete Defile from it or what you can give It in return.
Major Brutality - obviously always up from Rally
Major Savagery+Minor Berserk+3%WD - camouflaged hunter
Minor Brutality - DK group buff, can be provided to stamcro in smallscale, organized group or pug
Major Fracture - yes, this is notable downside... but stamplar&stamsorc lacks them as well, stamNB has it on ability which does nothing else
Yes I know, but I'm talking about the Stamcro kit if you delete Defile it will just be abilities with power nothing more.
1k cost, undodgeable, not avoided by LOS, AOE bomb with damage just slightly less then spectral bow/frags... This change made me to switch to S&B backbar. I have zero idea how to fight new blastbones if you can't hard block them. All things I usually relied on 2H/bow - speed, roll-dodge, free cc with heavy attack on off-balance (to stamcro not to BB ofc).. all of this won't work in new patch.
I mean Defile is just an icing on cake which will prevent another method of protection - healing. I don't see any other counter to new BB as to block them with as higher mitigation as possible, which of course comes from S&B block+major evasion.
I like live sneaking blastbones better, of course, if geo data worked well, it would be even better. My suggestion has already been voiced here if Defile gets out of control leave the live blastbones version only for Stamcro. In consequence of this, Magro will get a blastbones morph that jumps from a distance. I liked how my friend on DK used the jump thanks to sneaking blastbones + defile. For me, changes of this kind are killing potential possible combinations.
They can move defile to that skull spammable which nobody uses from what I see. Skull is dodgeable and has moderate damage so it won't be so crushing as maj defile on BB. Of course it won't allow to apply aoe major defile for the combo you describe... then major defile can be left on BB and cost OR damage should be drastically changed.MartiniDaniels wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »You guys really like to get into the controversy around the topic of Stamcro. How evasively people ignore the facts of the lack of many effects in the Stamcro set - Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Major Savagery, Major Fracture. Again, this is not a comparison with Defile it is a review of the Stamcro kit as a whole. First of all, please describe what Stamcro should be like if you delete Defile from it or what you can give It in return.
Major Brutality - obviously always up from Rally
Major Savagery+Minor Berserk+3%WD - camouflaged hunter
Minor Brutality - DK group buff, can be provided to stamcro in smallscale, organized group or pug
Major Fracture - yes, this is notable downside... but stamplar&stamsorc lacks them as well, stamNB has it on ability which does nothing else
Yes I know, but I'm talking about the Stamcro kit if you delete Defile it will just be abilities with power nothing more.
1k cost, undodgeable, not avoided by LOS, AOE bomb with damage just slightly less then spectral bow/frags... This change made me to switch to S&B backbar. I have zero idea how to fight new blastbones if you can't hard block them. All things I usually relied on 2H/bow - speed, roll-dodge, free cc with heavy attack on off-balance (to stamcro not to BB ofc).. all of this won't work in new patch.
I mean Defile is just an icing on cake which will prevent another method of protection - healing. I don't see any other counter to new BB as to block them with as higher mitigation as possible, which of course comes from S&B block+major evasion.
The only counter to major defile is to stack effective healing or purge. Purge is available only to templar or warden.
Effective healing is given by stacking: mitigation, sword and board defenses. Ie, the tank meta.
Those are your only options. 100% uptime on major defile will make the tank meta worse. Mag players and non heavy armor players rely on healing instead of raw tankiness. Defile hits a damage dealer for much more than a tank. Anyone saying otherwise is ignorant
Yes, ZOS doesn't understands that despite theoretically diminishing returns in mitigation formula it is still becames more effective as the more modifiers are stacked.
Just simple example - one player has 65% mitigation and other 70% (with battle spirit). Looks like only 5% difference. In practice 10k spammable will deal 3.5k to 1st and 3k to 2nd. 3.5/3 = 16% difference in damage received! No wonder that S&B is best back bar now and onslaught best ultimate. Because one provides highest bonus to mitigation with least drawbacks and other provides highest penetration of mitigation + burst.1 -
MartiniDaniels wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »You guys really like to get into the controversy around the topic of Stamcro. How evasively people ignore the facts of the lack of many effects in the Stamcro set - Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Major Savagery, Major Fracture. Again, this is not a comparison with Defile it is a review of the Stamcro kit as a whole. First of all, please describe what Stamcro should be like if you delete Defile from it or what you can give It in return.
Major Brutality - obviously always up from Rally
Major Savagery+Minor Berserk+3%WD - camouflaged hunter
Minor Brutality - DK group buff, can be provided to stamcro in smallscale, organized group or pug
Major Fracture - yes, this is notable downside... but stamplar&stamsorc lacks them as well, stamNB has it on ability which does nothing else
Yes I know, but I'm talking about the Stamcro kit if you delete Defile it will just be abilities with power nothing more.
1k cost, undodgeable, not avoided by LOS, AOE bomb with damage just slightly less then spectral bow/frags... This change made me to switch to S&B backbar. I have zero idea how to fight new blastbones if you can't hard block them. All things I usually relied on 2H/bow - speed, roll-dodge, free cc with heavy attack on off-balance (to stamcro not to BB ofc).. all of this won't work in new patch.
I mean Defile is just an icing on cake which will prevent another method of protection - healing. I don't see any other counter to new BB as to block them with as higher mitigation as possible, which of course comes from S&B block+major evasion.
I like live sneaking blastbones better, of course, if geo data worked well, it would be even better. My suggestion has already been voiced here if Defile gets out of control leave the live blastbones version only for Stamcro. In consequence of this, Magro will get a blastbones morph that jumps from a distance. I liked how my friend on DK used the jump thanks to sneaking blastbones + defile. For me, changes of this kind are killing potential possible combinations.
They can move defile to that skull spammable which nobody uses from what I see. Skull is dodgeable and has moderate damage so it won't be so crushing as maj defile on BB. Of course it won't allow to apply aoe major defile for the combo you describe... then major defile can be left on BB and cost OR damage should be drastically changed.
This is an interesting idea. I thought about it, too.
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Freakin_Hytte✭✭✭✭✭We need major defile, this will be a counter to the current tank meta, healing is too strong atm. This will help fix that. I say more defile to the people1
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BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Freakin_Hytte wrote: »We need major defile, this will be a counter to the current tank meta, healing is too strong atm. This will help fix that. I say more defile to the people
Please read through the previous posts again and you'll find plenty of reasons why major defile won't help in reducing the tankiness of people.
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katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »Here, people like to use numbers when building arguments in their own direction, but sometimes they exaggerate and downplay them. You understand this is not quite true very big health and very big WD. Most likely in the end you sacrifice something.
The Stamcro set lacks Major Fracture, so it relies on Defile to create pressure, just as Stamcro lacks minor brutality as in the case of Stam DK. I want to add that necro's passive abilities are not related to increasing damage. My opinion is that it's a good start to use Defile as a class identity. Maybe in the future, developers will be able to come up with new types of debuff thanks to this push, which they can implement in other classes.
Major defile has nothing to do with class identity and comparing major defile with major fracture or minor brutality is just absurd
Hmmm. Necromancer. Corpses. Pestilences. Disease damage. Boneyards. Skeletal pets.
Defile fits right in.
Maybe Necro should be The Defile Class, and other classes should have it removed. lol.
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This discussion has been closed.