5.3: You can now only queue as a solo player into Battlegrounds.
Update 46 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676794
Maintenance for the week of April 28:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 28
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – April 29, 12:00AM EDT (4:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EDT (22:00 UTC) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/677003
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 28
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – April 29, 12:00AM EDT (4:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EDT (22:00 UTC) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/677003
We will be performing maintenance for patch 11.0.2 on the PTS on Monday at 8:00AM EDT (12:00 UTC).
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Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thannazzar wrote: »
So would you be happy with a solo queue and a group queue being separate?
Sure, if an appropriate ranking system is added that actually reflects team effort and not just the amount of games that you've played. The underlying issue with BG's is the MMR/Ranking system.
@Daemonai
I've done 1 or maybe 2 BG's this patch as a 4 man premade, and that was with me knowing that I'd be paired up against two other 4 man premades. So the pugstomping doesn't really apply to me. The majority of pug stomping occurs from players that rerolls new characters over and over again to stay in the low mmr bracket. And they'll be able to keep doing so next patch as well (which is kinda sad, but what can you do......)
I never said or implied that most people queue solo (not intentionally at least). My point here was that a lot of the complains I see about people thinking they're up against premades rarely are premades. I personally play a big portion of my BG's as a duo, and from the few threads I've read so far, many others seems to play that way too (maybe with a partner, friend etc...) and this change completely kills that option because some players doesn't like to lose and excuse themselves that it's because of a suspected premade (which rarely is a premade).
I do welcome the MMR reset, because it might mean that I don't have to spend a ridiculous amount of time waiting for a game on my main character. But the entire "solo-queue" only feels like a band aid fix for not being able to figure out a way to improve the current MMR/Ranking system.2 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
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Sure, if an appropriate ranking system is added that actually reflects team effort and not just the amount of games that you've played. The underlying issue with BG's is the MMR/Ranking system.
@Daemonai
I've done 1 or maybe 2 BG's this patch as a 4 man premade, and that was with me knowing that I'd be paired up against two other 4 man premades. So the pugstomping doesn't really apply to me. The majority of pug stomping occurs from players that rerolls new characters over and over again to stay in the low mmr bracket. And they'll be able to keep doing so next patch as well (which is kinda sad, but what can you do......)
I never said or implied that most people queue solo (not intentionally at least). My point here was that a lot of the complains I see about people thinking they're up against premades rarely are premades. I personally play a big portion of my BG's as a duo, and from the few threads I've read so far, many others seems to play that way too (maybe with a partner, friend etc...) and this change completely kills that option because some players doesn't like to lose and excuse themselves that it's because of a suspected premade (which rarely is a premade).
I do welcome the MMR reset, because it might mean that I don't have to spend a ridiculous amount of time waiting for a game on my main character. But the entire "solo-queue" only feels like a band aid fix for not being able to figure out a way to improve the current MMR/Ranking system.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/509038/a-solution-to-bg-problem-perhaps#latest0 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Thre is absolutely nothing positive in those changes.
1. PvP players who enjoy playing with friend now don't have content to play together (you can just stop directing to cyro with its 999+ ping).
2. mmr reset will force experienced players to matched against new players like it was during update launch, but this time instead of couple weeks it will be couple months.
Does people who like playing together will like it - No. Competitiveness of this pvp content simply removed.
Does experienced players will like to roflstomp new players - No, I personally stoped playing bg till they fixed it coz placing in match against such unexperienced players that you could solo win deathmatch with 34 kills was causing nothing but frustration.
Does new players will like to be stomped - No, and after being stomped for like month I don't feel they will be inspired to play it.
And btw we got Ald Carac old map back, so why Istirus Outpost wasn't return to old state? In it current form it most disgusting map to play.5 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
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If this sticks going into the live server I won't ever play BG's again. I only play it. Because of friends.
I do not understand what is with ZoS' aversion to having choices. Why not both queues, yeesh.0 -
The Uninvited✭✭✭✭✭
✭I hate it. BG's are what got my wife and me into PVP, both coming from games like Unreal Tournament. We like playing together, no matter who the other two group members are.
Now, there's a chance we are on opposing teams and have to fight each other. On the other hand, we could now of course easily pass a relic or chaos ball to each other as well. Hmmm...
There's also 1 other thing people seem to forget about. The people previously playing in premades, will now likely be in one of your teams. Prepare for group chat becoming less friendly and more like "oh look, it's the noobs again" toxic rants.Pandora's Promise (rip) | LND | Pactriotic | IKnowWhatUDidLastWinter's | The Uninvited |
Ride the paranoia | All life is pain | Only the grave is real4 -
Ylikollikas✭✭✭The most sensible choice is to have solo and group queue separately. It will split the playerbase, but is compensated for soloers by some solo players returning to BGs who previously got tired of facing premades. Groupers would face longer queue times, but I think it is more important to protect soloers.2 -
iris56✭✭✭I'm super glad battleground won't be just full of premades every single time anymore. I would prefer if you could at least queue as groups of two as my boyfriend and i used to do bgs together, but we haven't done that in ages anyway because our MMRs got too high and every single fight was against 4 man premades. Yuck.
Not a perfect change, but a really welcome one. At least everyone is on equal footing now.1 -
mav1234✭✭✭✭✭Not a perfect change, but a really welcome one. At least everyone is on equal footing now.
Is it, though? Now it is really RNG if you end up with a healer in your random.
I think your post exemplifies why the problem has never been queuing with someone else. It has always been about the nature of tankiness and healing in bgs.
Tanky healers with even a small amount of coordination from their team can create total stompfests. That coordination doesn't need to even be from queuing together... i agree 4 player premades are even worse than that... but this doesnt address what is really the problem...0 -
Kidgangster101✭✭✭✭✭
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Is it, though? Now it is really RNG if you end up with a healer in your random.
I think your post exemplifies why the problem has never been queuing with someone else. It has always been about the nature of tankiness and healing in bgs.
Tanky healers with even a small amount of coordination from their team can create total stompfests. That coordination doesn't need to even be from queuing together... i agree 4 player premades are even worse than that... but this doesnt address what is really the problem...
Yep I wasn't originally going to que but now I might que solo as my unkillable healer that does next to no damage and just keep my group alive so people can come back to forums and say this.....
"The que system is broken zos! There is premade groups still queing for bg I as a solo player can't compete with all these players glitching bg and finding a way to bring a full group into our solo gameplay mode"
Even though anything team related should be a "group". What's next all the bad players that try to pug trials are going to come on the forum saying their being kicked out of trials? This will make zos change trials to you have to solo que only? Because your not a good player you want to punish everyone to play your play style in a game that now has won what 3mmo of the year awards?
MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE game that supports only single player content or solo que content! I can see it winning mmo of the year for a 4th year supporting game modes that should be in offline only games lol.0 -
iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thannazzar wrote: »
So would you be happy with a solo queue and a group queue(2-4 players) being separate? Or do u you not want your duo group to come up a gainst a premade despite their being no 'premade domination'.
People are mad for several reasons: 1) this removes duos, which is a common way to play and is not toxic in the slightest. 2) guilds organize in guild games against eachother. This will no longer be possible 3) grouping up with friends in comms is a great deal of fun, and while waiting 40 minutes for a match is hardly ideal, removing a social aspect of an mmo is a bad idea4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Though I understand that making people do solo content in mmo is weird it has been introduced in eso since MA. So it isn’t new. Making an other system for groups could be an option but I don’t know the numbers and it would prob mean that you need to always cue with 4 or 2 cause else you cannot have a group cue. So I think for now since balancing didn’t really work this might help with it and cue times even though I don’t like doing solo content in mmo (best of all the bad options...)
Doing MA solo is rather irrelevant as it is designed to be done solo. BGs is a team/group so you are wrong and this change forcing players to play solo in a team activity is new, but good try.1 -
ArctosCethlenn✭✭✭✭GW2 tried to make the same change for the same reasons. Queue times got worse and pvp/bg participation dropped, because all those people who were looking to pvp with their friends and family said "ok well we can't do that here, we need to find a new game".
It's a multiplayer game, being able to group with your friends is supposed to be a selling point.2 -
SkysOutThizeOut✭✭✭✭This is only a good change to bad players and players who don’t have friends that bg. That’s it. You can solo queue and beat premades or place second if you just play around your team as scrubby as the randoms may be. Why do so many of you want to ruin the experience of so many, no premades, just because you are bad and haven’t learned to play? Because you don’t know how to face a challenge? I’d sincerely like to know1 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Kidgangster101 wrote: »
Yep I wasn't originally going to que but now I might que solo as my unkillable healer that does next to no damage and just keep my group alive so people can come back to forums and say this.....
"The que system is broken zos! There is premade groups still queing for bg I as a solo player can't compete with all these players glitching bg and finding a way to bring a full group into our solo gameplay mode"
Even though anything team related should be a "group". What's next all the bad players that try to pug trials are going to come on the forum saying their being kicked out of trials? This will make zos change trials to you have to solo que only? Because your not a good player you want to punish everyone to play your play style in a game that now has won what 3mmo of the year awards?
MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE game that supports only single player content or solo que content! I can see it winning mmo of the year for a 4th year supporting game modes that should be in offline only games lol.
This is getting *** exhausting. You people need to stop with this nonsense. There are a great many players that engage with this genre reasons well beyond playing with others at every turn. Believe it or not, playing and progressing a character as a solo player in an online game mmorpg, to gauge yourself amongst your peers is a very popular enabler for many players.0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »This is only a good change to bad players and players who don’t have friends that bg. That’s it. You can solo queue and beat premades or place second if you just play around your team as scrubby as the randoms may be. Why do so many of you want to ruin the experience of so many, no premades, just because you are bad and haven’t learned to play? Because you don’t know how to face a challenge? I’d sincerely like to know
I think my favorite thing about this whole situation is the claim that there aren't enough premades to make this a problem in the first place while also claiming that this will impact a lot of people so it is a bad idea. Can't have both here, either this will be a minimal change that impacts only a few groups or everyone was running premades and have no way to play any more.
Pre-mades in the normal queue was bad for this mode and I'd confidently say it led to far more players leaving BGs than this change will cause. The problem was that during many times of the week, these premades would enter the queue and you would face them constantly match to match, pretty much ruining an entire night of BG play.
This isn't a solo mode, even with the change, as it still puts you with a group that you need to figure out how to work with, promoting individual skill and on the fly group cohesion. Which is far more indicative of skill and far more rewarding of a win than just crushing those groups with a team you no-life with.
Edited by jaws343 on January 21, 2020 4:15PM0 -
killingspreeb16_ESO✭✭✭✭SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »This is only a good change to bad players and players who don’t have friends that bg. That’s it. You can solo queue and beat premades or place second if you just play around your team as scrubby as the randoms may be. Why do so many of you want to ruin the experience of so many, no premades, just because you are bad and haven’t learned to play? Because you don’t know how to face a challenge? I’d sincerely like to know
What a load of BS,solo player should suck it up because they need to "face a challenge",yet premade face just another free win with no challenge whatsoever.
But ofcourse the bad player are the solo's not the people who play as premade vs random.
When people complained about premade the response from the people who play as premade often was basically "team up or deal with it" instead of suggest more Q type for a better playing field.
But now that the table have turned here they are.
The best solution was to make a soloQ(or solo/duo) and a premade queue,but it's always fun to read such BS about solo player need to "face a challenge".Edited by killingspreeb16_ESO on January 21, 2020 4:38PM2 -
mav1234✭✭✭✭✭killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »
What a load of BS,solo player should suck it up because they need to "face a challenge",yet premade face just another free win with no challenge whatsoever.
But ofcourse the bad player are the solo's not the people who play as premade vs random.
When people complained about premade the response from the people who play as premade often was basically "team up or deal with it" instead of suggest more Q type for a better playing field.
But now that they table have turned here they are.
The best solution was to make a soloQ(or solo/duo) and a premade queue,but it's always fun to read such BS about solo player need to "face a challenge".
I agree that the best solution is a solo/duo queue, and a 4 person group queue. But a lot of people do not want duos in the solo queue... Regardless, that is not the proposed solution; if it was, I would be on board with ZOS. But that has not been communicated as their intent, and until it has, I will fight vehemently against this change (certainly in vain, given past PTS cycles).
As to groups just saying to get your own premade... Many, MANY groups advocated strongly for an organized group queue / lobby system in the past. There were many threads about this. And many of us never said one shouldn't be made at all, it was just never anything on the PTS or anywhere to discuss. This is the first time we've had the option to bring it up to ZOS.
Not everyone that groups with a friend ends up "stomping pugs". Not all of us are even particularly coordinated when we do group with a friend. Many of us just want to play with our friends or loved ones. And the only time a duo queue in a BG right now is really a negative thing is if it contains a tanky healer player - indicating quite clearly the major problem is with healing builds.1 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
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I agree that the best solution is a solo/duo queue, and a 4 person group queue. But a lot of people do not want duos in the solo queue... Regardless, that is not the proposed solution; if it was, I would be on board with ZOS. But that has not been communicated as their intent, and until it has, I will fight vehemently against this change (certainly in vain, given past PTS cycles).
As to groups just saying to get your own premade... Many, MANY groups advocated strongly for an organized group queue / lobby system in the past. There were many threads about this. And many of us never said one shouldn't be made at all, it was just never anything on the PTS or anywhere to discuss. This is the first time we've had the option to bring it up to ZOS.
Not everyone that groups with a friend ends up "stomping pugs". Not all of us are even particularly coordinated when we do group with a friend. Many of us just want to play with our friends or loved ones. And the only time a duo queue in a BG right now is really a negative thing is if it contains a tanky healer player - indicating quite clearly the major problem is with healing builds.
That is ridiculous. Since BGs was implemented there have been countless threads about removing pre-mades from the queue due to the overwhelming power advantage. Any one of those threads was an avenue for this discussion.0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Seriously, I am thoroughly convinced the only people saying this is an issue have not ever played in the higher mmr bracket.
You can solo all the way up to the point where you eventually have 30 minute queues only to he faced with the same handful of premades all night. This is an absolute truth full stop. "Ahhh now I can play with my wife once a day for the random exp bonus", your group will never grasp how miserable bgs actually become.
But which one is it then? You have people here saying premade issues are just a falsehood that bad players claim to excuse their loss, and that is actually just a group of random better players, so then this change doesnt matter as most arent actually premades and those good players will be fine with the change? Or is this actually an issue with premades in every other match to which this change will have a major effect?
Duo queues arent carrying games or stomping lobbies in higher mmr either. This change will make bgs palatable for higher mmr queues at the expense of the casual players not being able to get their daily done with a friend once a day. Duo queues probably got have remained as their impact is not as severe.3 -
mav1234✭✭✭✭✭That is ridiculous. Since BGs was implemented there have been countless threads about removing pre-mades from the queue due to the overwhelming power advantage. Any one of those threads was an avenue for this discussion.
This is the first time that someone like me has gotten involved because I am astonished that ZOS would simply bar friends from queuing together. I imagine this is true of many of us. Compared to a lot of posters here I am very, very casual. I follow PvP streams and read the occasional thread; I almost never weigh in. I have seen threads previously by people that run premades asking for lobbies for organizational purposes. I didn't bookmark them so I can't find them, but they did happen. I have never opposed group and solo queue options, however they are implemented.
The reason you haven't seen as much discussion on this before is because nobody anticipated the removal of a group option entirely for a group activity.0 -
mav1234✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Seriously, I am thoroughly convinced the only people saying this is an issue have not ever played in the higher mmr bracket.
You can solo all the way up to the point where you eventually have 30 minute queues only to he faced with the same handful of premades all night. This is an absolute truth full stop. "Ahhh now I can play with my wife once a day for the random exp bonus", your group will never grasp how miserable bgs actually become.
But which one is it then? You have people here saying premade issues are just a falsehood that bad players claim to excuse their loss, and that is actually just a group of random better players, so then this change doesnt matter as most arent actually premades and those good players will be fine with the change? Or is this actually an issue with premades in every other match to which this change will have a major effect?
Duo queues arent carrying games or stomping lobbies in higher mmr either. This change will make bgs palatable for higher mmr queues at the expense of the casual players not being able to get their daily done with a friend once a day. Duo queues probably got have remained as their impact is not as severe.
I believe premades are likely an issue for higher MMR players, but at least on PC NA, if we define a premade as a team that stomps other teams to the point where nobody gets more than a couple kills, they are certainly not present in anywhere close to every other game. From watching one high MMR streamer, that seems to occur only one or twice a night. And a coupe of times I've seen a streamer call out other players for being in a premade, they have been proven wrong. I think a lot of times there is an assumption that a pure healer in high MMR is part of a premade. Sometimes that person is part of a duo I bet.
I think the solution is probably a single/duo queue and a group queue.0 -
mursie✭✭✭✭✭
If most people are queuing solo, by your own admission, then almost no one will be inconvenienced by the change, yeah? So what is there to be mad about...unless you want to be one of the few pug-stomping premades.
well played
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killingspreeb16_ESO✭✭✭✭
I agree that the best solution is a solo/duo queue, and a 4 person group queue. But a lot of people do not want duos in the solo queue... Regardless, that is not the proposed solution; if it was, I would be on board with ZOS. But that has not been communicated as their intent, and until it has, I will fight vehemently against this change (certainly in vain, given past PTS cycles).
As to groups just saying to get your own premade... Many, MANY groups advocated strongly for an organized group queue / lobby system in the past. There were many threads about this. And many of us never said one shouldn't be made at all, it was just never anything on the PTS or anywhere to discuss. This is the first time we've had the option to bring it up to ZOS.
Not everyone that groups with a friend ends up "stomping pugs". Not all of us are even particularly coordinated when we do group with a friend. Many of us just want to play with our friends or loved ones. And the only time a duo queue in a BG right now is really a negative thing is if it contains a tanky healer player - indicating quite clearly the major problem is with healing builds.
Im not saying everyone who play as premade wanted to stomp pugs but many did actually stomp pugs and if someone complained they had to deal with it or team up.
And i know not every premade play as a perfectly cordinated team but regardless of that they have an advantage that solo or even duo can't get.
In other games a full premade is restricted to ranked queue most of the time,just look at WoW,you can do random BG up to 5 people as premade but the bg team size are either 10 or 15 people per team.
In eso is 4vs4vs4 at best we can have duo as accettable premade size otherwise the gap will be too big for a solo player.
If people want to play as 4(nothing wrong with it) they should ask a Queue for premade vs premade and many people would support this.
But for now even in this thread as you can read(like the guy i quoted)apparently is just solo player that are bad and can't face a challenge.0 -
mav1234✭✭✭✭✭
there are a lot of duos queuing I bet. that is typically how I've queued. do you think duos are really that bad to fight? in the past I know you've said the problem is if one of the duo is a tanky healer.killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »In other games a full premade is restricted to ranked queue most of the time,just look at WoW,you can do random BG up to 5 people as premade but the bg team size are either 10 or 15 people per team.
In eso is 4vs4vs4 at best we can have duo as accettable premade size otherwise the gap will be too big for a solo player.
If people want to play as 4(nothing wrong with it) they should ask a Queue for premade vs premade and many people would support this.
But for now even in this thread as you can read(like the guy i quoted)apparently is just solo player that are bad and can't face a challenge.
pretty much everyone here is asking for more queue options instead of less (what ZOS did = less queuing options, since no way to queue as a group at all now)... and you are right one poster (probably more than one) did say solo people are bad. but there are also solo posters saying people that want to group are bad, etc. This is a heated issue for, I think, obvious reasons.
There does seem to be a community consensus that there needs to be more queue options tho.
edit: also worth noting, at various points in WoW's history you could queue as a full premade into a BG. But now they offer both arenas and ranked BGs, so there is no reason to have premades in BGs there. if ESO did similar... a lot of us would be happy.Edited by mav1234 on January 21, 2020 4:59PM0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Some people just can't distinguish between 2 and 4 premade. You were getting stomped by the 4-premades, not the duo ones. And trust or not, pairs logging together is very common and this change is a complete p*ss off for them. And even creating group queue next to solo queue wouldn't help, because two pairs facing full 4-premade is just as bad as 4 solos facing full 4-premade. Best solution is making a solo/duo queue which is common practice in e-sports games. Even the most popular PvP game of last 10 years doesn't have queue for solo only, it has ranked solo/duo queue.
And to make it fair, there should be restriction added in the matchmaking process that only one pair at maximum can be at each team. This way 4 solos can't face two pairs. 4 solos against one pair and 2 solos is anything but big deal. Actually solo players should win because there is a MMR altering coeficient for being grouped, so the 4 solos will have higher MMR than the pair, thus being more experienced. In this case, and any experienced player will agree with me, individual experience > being in a party with a single friend.Edited by Olupajmibanan on January 21, 2020 5:12PM0 -
metabLast3r✭✭✭All I can say is, I cannot imagine the amount of waiting for queue to pop if they do add a group queue for 2-4 players. Solo queue would fill up fairly quick I would think and slow to pickup a game as it would need to fill 2-4 for a team. The real question is, would you be waiting for other half/full teams a lot longer. This would suck at certain times of the day.0
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Joinovikova✭✭✭✭From the PTS Notes:
"You can now only queue as a solo player into Battlegrounds."
This is an extremely bad choice. Preventing players from grouping with friends at all for BGs is a complete non-starter for many of us. I get there should be a solo queue and I understand why that could have knock-on effects in terms of queue times for groups. But to prevent it entirely is a huge problem.
I have several friends where what we enjoy in MMOs is instanced PvP. We play together for that reason. Cyrodil is laggy as crap and fights are infrequent if you aren't riding a zerg. BGs offer an alternative of a balanced game (in terms of player numbers, anyway).
This is NOT the answer to group-vs-solo queues in BGs. This will drive players away. There has to be another solution.
This is extremly great best what @ZOS can do make balance game for 99% of players not 1% of premade AOE builds spamm noobs0 -
killingspreeb16_ESO✭✭✭✭
there are a lot of duos queuing I bet. that is typically how I've queued. do you think duos are really that bad to fight? in the past I know you've said the problem is if one of the duo is a tanky healer.
pretty much everyone here is asking for more queue options instead of less (what ZOS did = less queuing options, since no way to queue as a group at all now)... and you are right one poster (probably more than one) did say solo people are bad. but there are also solo posters saying people that want to group are bad, etc. This is a heated issue for, I think, obvious reasons.
There does seem to be a community consensus that there needs to be more queue options tho.
edit: also worth noting, at various points in WoW's history you could queue as a full premade into a BG. But now they offer both arenas and ranked BGs, so there is no reason to have premades in BGs there. if ESO did similar... a lot of us would be happy.
Many want more Q option but not everyone,claiming there is not enough population for 2Queue or the one who say go to cyro if you want premade and so on,we can hope ZoS make 2 queue solo/duo and a premade one(maybe with a rating or some special reward to incentivate people playing in it)
For what i recall in WoW you could never queue up as full premade for random BG(maybe in the original vanilla(?) I started in burning crusade).
Now yes they have arena,rated bg and random bg but in random BG the premade size is max of 5 people.0 -
mursie✭✭✭✭✭there are a lot of duos queuing I bet. that is typically how I've queued. do you think duos are really that bad to fight? in the past I know you've said the problem is if one of the duo is a tanky healer.
rio and sunbark were duoing last night. rio started off as dedicated warden heals with sunbark warden dps. 2 bg's in a row... the other teams had 0 kills (one bg the entire green team left) and the duo squad team all had double digit kills.
later in the evening, rio and sun both went damage in a duo, and the bg was more evenly balanced between all teams.
finally, they split up and sun was solo. the bg was completely balanced.
this happened just last night. yes - group queing, of any variety, provides a significant advantage over solo pugs. duo's that have dedicated healing...even more so. three and four mans further exacerbate.
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