Story Mode Dungeons: Do we want them?

LoneStar2911

YES. We want a story mode.

Sevn wrote: »

I think I have a solution for the naysayers, especially the ones who are against any loot being rewarded including the skillpoint.

If there is a member of the party that hasn't done the story make the dungeon require every team member to wait until they have gone through all the dialogue for each npc.

Also allot a set amount of time for them to explore each section of the dungeon if they so choose.

No more worries about unearned loot or lack of players for pugs. Win/win right?

No. If some people get matched with someone the game forces them to wait around for, they'll just drop the group. It would be very difficult to keep a group together.

Sevn

Amber322 wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

I think I have a solution for the naysayers, especially the ones who are against any loot being rewarded including the skillpoint.

If there is a member of the party that hasn't done the story make the dungeon require every team member to wait until they have gone through all the dialogue for each npc.

Also allot a set amount of time for them to explore each section of the dungeon if they so choose.

No more worries about unearned loot or lack of players for pugs. Win/win right?

No. If some people get matched with someone the game forces them to wait around for, they'll just drop the group. It would be very difficult to keep a group together.

Oh no, I forgot to mention the inability to drop group as well! Unreasonable? Without question. Similar to their inability to reason with a story mode.

whitecrow

YES. We want a story mode.

Yes, so I don't have to try to find three other people who will let me listen to all the dialogue while we go through.

ZOS_Adrikoth

Hey folks, we don't have any plans for a Story Mode at this time but we have read through all of your suggestions and appreciate the feedback that has been provided in this thread.

zvavi

NO. Do not add a story mode.

ZOS_Adrikoth wrote: »

Hey folks, we don't have any plans for a Story Mode at this time but we have read through all of your suggestions and appreciate the feedback that has been provided in this thread.

Nice

Kendaric

YES. We want a story mode.

ZOS_Adrikoth wrote: »

Hey folks, we don't have any plans for a Story Mode at this time but we have read through all of your suggestions and appreciate the feedback that has been provided in this thread.

Sad to hear it, but the response is appreciated regardless.

I guess that means no dungeons for me for the forseeable future. I do wonder though ... how much of the "Dark Heart of Skyrim" story will I be missing out on?

Dusk_Coven

YES. We want a story mode.

Contaminate wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

So in fact it is HARDER content -- which tends to give out better rewards -- that gets exploited and grinded. Like Dragons in Elsweyr and Alik'r Dolmens. Theoretically hard and giving good rewards -- so let's swarm them until it's easy and grindable.
Never heard of people doing 4-man grinds of Fungal Grotto 1 all day to get... whatever.

I don’t know where you were, but FG1 grinding was the go-to for the Undaunted Event boxes.

It was also swarmed during the Undaunted Event before that one.

It’s the one people solo for Witch’s Fest gold skulls.

It’s the go to because it’s quick and easy.

And there’s no “exploitation” when good players carry poor ones in exchange for gold. Everyone has a fair shot at completing content, either someone don’t want to put in the time or the effort, so they pay for it instead. The content is still being run at a high level, unlike with a story mode that’s basically a Lazy River where you can do nothing and still get through it easily.

No, FG1 "grinding" was done SOLO ONCE per day for tickets. (See? people don't even want to group when they don't have to)
What people were actually wanting to grind was Veteran HM to get the opal pages. That's where the real loot was.

Even so, talking about events where some rewards are deliberately given out easily is invalid. You might as well talk about them giving out anniversary boxes for doing crafting dailies.
Whatever your views are about selling carries, the point is it's being farmed -- it's the hardest content in the game that tends to get farmed somehow.

Stop grasping at straws. Maybe you need to play the game more and look at what's really going on.

Dusk_Coven

YES. We want a story mode.

Amber322 wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

I think I have a solution for the naysayers, especially the ones who are against any loot being rewarded including the skillpoint.

If there is a member of the party that hasn't done the story make the dungeon require every team member to wait until they have gone through all the dialogue for each npc.

No. If some people get matched with someone the game forces them to wait around for, they'll just drop the group. It would be very difficult to keep a group together.

SWTOR has dialog lock like that and impatient people whisper in chat to press spacebar to skip.
With the type of people you have in ESO you're more liable to get kicked right away. Especially when the dungeon designs often don't need tank or healers. The ones that do -- typically the DLC ones -- no one wants to do anyway. From what I read on the forums, people who draw those as part of random normal daily drop group voluntarily rather than have their daily loot farm slowed down.

Iccotak

Yes. Although I don’t want a story mode, let people who want it have it.

zvavi wrote: »

ZOS_Adrikoth wrote: »

Hey folks, we don't have any plans for a Story Mode at this time but we have read through all of your suggestions and appreciate the feedback that has been provided in this thread.

Nice

Kahnak

Yes. Although I don’t want a story mode, let people who want it have it.

Kendaric wrote: »

ZOS_Adrikoth wrote: »

Hey folks, we don't have any plans for a Story Mode at this time but we have read through all of your suggestions and appreciate the feedback that has been provided in this thread.

Sad to hear it, but the response is appreciated regardless.

I guess that means no dungeons for me for the forseeable future. I do wonder though ... how much of the "Dark Heart of Skyrim" story will I be missing out on?

You don't think it's a little disingenuous to suggest that you're missing out on story because of some aspect of the game when you're the one deliberately avoiding the story in the group content simply because it's group content?

Contaminate

NO. Do not add a story mode.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

So in fact it is HARDER content -- which tends to give out better rewards -- that gets exploited and grinded. Like Dragons in Elsweyr and Alik'r Dolmens. Theoretically hard and giving good rewards -- so let's swarm them until it's easy and grindable.
Never heard of people doing 4-man grinds of Fungal Grotto 1 all day to get... whatever.

I don’t know where you were, but FG1 grinding was the go-to for the Undaunted Event boxes.

It was also swarmed during the Undaunted Event before that one.

It’s the one people solo for Witch’s Fest gold skulls.

It’s the go to because it’s quick and easy.

And there’s no “exploitation” when good players carry poor ones in exchange for gold. Everyone has a fair shot at completing content, either someone don’t want to put in the time or the effort, so they pay for it instead. The content is still being run at a high level, unlike with a story mode that’s basically a Lazy River where you can do nothing and still get through it easily.

No, FG1 "grinding" was done SOLO ONCE per day for tickets. (See? people don't even want to group when they don't have to)
What people were actually wanting to grind was Veteran HM to get the opal pages. That's where the real loot was.

Even so, talking about events where some rewards are deliberately given out easily is invalid. You might as well talk about them giving out anniversary boxes for doing crafting dailies.
Whatever your views are about selling carries, the point is it's being farmed -- it's the hardest content in the game that tends to get farmed somehow.

Stop grasping at straws. Maybe you need to play the game more and look at what's really going on.

There are maybe half a dozen guilds that have the skill and experience to “farm” vhm trials. The rest of the playerbase is progressing them, still struggling for their clears, still practicing and fine tuning and figuring out what works best. People like you only see the leaderboard scores and think “that’s not impressive, they’re just uber elites” as if those player don’t spend hours upon hours improving themselves to reach that level of efficiency and group synergy.

You talk about dolmens and world bosses, as if that’s any different than a Cyrodiil zerg, but we’re discussing dungeons, where the player count is hard capped and designed around four players as it should be.

FG1 was indeed farmed repeatedly. Multiple of my guilds farmed that out because once you got the opal masks, there was no reason not to go to the five-minute dungeon to farm boxes for the rest. All events are casual catering anyway, we don’t need more of that I can promise you.

Anyway this is all moot because thankfully a full dungeon overhaul, all to accommodate players who think forming their own groups with likeminded people is unreasonable, is not on the table

DarcyMardin

YES. We want a story mode.

ZOS_Adrikoth wrote: »

Hey folks, we don't have any plans for a Story Mode at this time but we have read through all of your suggestions and appreciate the feedback that has been provided in this thread.

Thanks for responding! I'm disappointed, though, that you have no plans for story mode currently, but hopeful that you might reconsider it for the future. There are a lot of us who feel we are missing out on parts of the new chapters' stories by not being able to complete the harder DLC dungeons. The year-long story mode of last year and this coming year have made this seem worse for us story-lovers.

Again, thanks for listening.

Olauron

YES. We want a story mode.

DarcyMardin wrote: »

ZOS_Adrikoth wrote: »

Hey folks, we don't have any plans for a Story Mode at this time but we have read through all of your suggestions and appreciate the feedback that has been provided in this thread.

Thanks for responding! I'm disappointed, though, that you have no plans for story mode currently, but hopeful that you might reconsider it for the future. There are a lot of us who feel we are missing out on parts of the new chapters' stories by not being able to complete the harder DLC dungeons. The year-long story mode of last year and this coming year have made this seem worse for us story-lovers.

Again, thanks for listening.

I actually think that it is the best answer we can have. Since story mode was not announced during the chapter reveal it was highly unlikely that there have been plans to implement it. Given the overall year-long plan including performance improvements I would not count on any new (unannounced) features added before the next year Q1, as even Q4 is likely planned and has no room for something else.

Kendaric

YES. We want a story mode.

Kahnak wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

ZOS_Adrikoth wrote: »

Hey folks, we don't have any plans for a Story Mode at this time but we have read through all of your suggestions and appreciate the feedback that has been provided in this thread.

Sad to hear it, but the response is appreciated regardless.

I guess that means no dungeons for me for the forseeable future. I do wonder though ... how much of the "Dark Heart of Skyrim" story will I be missing out on?

You don't think it's a little disingenuous to suggest that you're missing out on story because of some aspect of the game when you're the one deliberately avoiding the story in the group content simply because it's group content?

No, I think the question is perfectly reasonable given how they announced a deeper integration of dungeon DLCs into the storyline for the upcoming chapters.
If it's just like Elsweyr, I'm not missing out on anything important as it gets explained in the prologue quest to the chapter (with further information on various notes). Sure, I'd still prefer experiencing it firsthand but since that's not an option for me, I can easily live with it.
If, on the other hand, a relatively large chunk of the main story is getting moved into dungeons instead of overland quests, I' have a definite problem with it and it would of course affect my interest in future chapters (I preordered Greymoor anyway though).

BejaProphet

@Olauron is right. Their plans for the year are a done deal. It always would have, at best, been a “down the road” thing. A community guy speaking to the thread for a reason other than censure is way more than anybody should have hoped for. It could still never happen for a variety of reasons, but the acknowledgement was a win for the “yays.”

Dusk_Coven

YES. We want a story mode.

BejaProphet wrote: »

@Olauron is right. Their plans for the year are a done deal. It always would have, at best, been a “down the road” thing. A community guy speaking to the thread for a reason other than censure is way more than anybody should have hoped for. It could still never happen for a variety of reasons, but the acknowledgement was a win for the “yays.”

Yup. For us Skyrim is "new". But for ZOS, they were probably polishing it up last year. I would be horrified if they pumped out a whole expansion in a season. Whatever they want to do in 2021 is probably already locked in and they are probably having meetings about 2022.

Dusk_Coven

YES. We want a story mode.

Sevn wrote: »

Amber322 wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

I think I have a solution for the naysayers, especially the ones who are against any loot being rewarded including the skillpoint.

If there is a member of the party that hasn't done the story make the dungeon require every team member to wait until they have gone through all the dialogue for each npc.

Also allot a set amount of time for them to explore each section of the dungeon if they so choose.

No more worries about unearned loot or lack of players for pugs. Win/win right?

No. If some people get matched with someone the game forces them to wait around for, they'll just drop the group. It would be very difficult to keep a group together.

Oh no, I forgot to mention the inability to drop group as well! Unreasonable? Without question. Similar to their inability to reason with a story mode.

In FFXIV there is a category of daily random where you will be matched up with a story dungeon and the scenes are unskippable. You are told up front, you will be going into an unskippable cutscene dungeon. It will probably take an hour. But don't worry we will reward you for your time spent helping new players experiencing the fantastic story for the very first time.
… And people still found a workaround by disconnecting and reconnecting. While others are watching the (long) cutscenes, they are wiping the floor with the boss and moving ahead to the next boss fight.
Even when they voluntarily went into a story dungeon mode, they sabotaged it.

So instead of continuing the model, FFXIV did the logical thing to not inconvenience players any more by simply NOT putting huge story cutscenes in their mandatory story content going forward.
In their story-progress-dungeons, the story is told as you run through it. You don't have to stop and no one misses anything. Because the style of storytelling for the dungeons is different.

ZOS's model of inconveniencing people is a dinosaur and needs to go.

Unseelie

If for some reason people want them, more power to them (again providing no reward). Usually for me between the sheer amount of daily quests available as well as running multiple alts through everything the idea is absolutely unthinkable for me.

TheFM

NO. Do not add a story mode.

TokenIntellect wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Most people are fine with content being made for everyone[...]

So, why are you a "NO" vote then?

Isn't the point of a story mode that more of the content will be available for everyone instead of the minority? It sure seems like sour grapes— you didn't get the change you wanted (harder overland content), so you want to make sure that the YES voters here won't get what they want, either.

It is entirely possible that a survey of all of the player base would come up with an entirely different result. But here's a novel thought for you, it may well be that the combination of the "year of the dragon," randomly fluctuating meta, thin plot, performance issues, etc. would also bias that poll to people who like the game as it is and play despite the issues. That doesn't mean ZOS would be well-served to think that the combination of the "year of the dragon," randomly fluctuating meta, thin plot, performance issues, et cetera worked and should be repeated.

Yet, that's what we've got coming up. Not only does ZOS seem to think that running a few threads of story through the dungeons was a good idea, they've claimed that the feedback they heard was all in favor of it (it certainly wasn't) and have now promised that the story will be even-more integrated into the dungeons.

Most people are fine with content being made for everyone.

A story mode would get us a lot closer to that than, say, harder overland content— but expanding the content in both directions (assuming the fallacy that story mode is about being less difficult) would be ideal. Of course, if ZOS made harder overland content with some kind of more-difficult world boss— I don't know, maybe some kind of dragon or something— without also considering making the dungeons available to more players... then we'd be in a situation where the player base would be perfectly justified asking and advocating for a story mode.

Because I was convinced otherwise? I know, people aren't allowed to do that nowadays.

I'd be fine with one with at most gold and consumables for drops.

TheFM

NO. Do not add a story mode.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Tell you what, you can have a solo mode when we get a vet overland mode.

Ergo, never.

It's called Craglorn but you don't want to go there.

Ok, you can have one dungeon. If you wanna use that comparison.

Why not? And when ZOS sees how many people use Story Mode, they'll give us more.
You don't use vet zones they gave you, so no more for you.

There are no vet zones, lol. Imperial city is the closest you get in no cp, and I am constantly there.

LOL you already agreed that Craglorn is a vet zone. See quotes above. Now you backtrack?
You're a waste of time.

Excuse me for not having 100 percent proper terminology, but yes, more insults, keep em coming, I'll just keep taking note.

Craglorn was a vet zone. Now it's at most public dungeon difficulty. A proper vet overland would be a step over that, like no cp imperial city.

Insults and assumptions - waste of time and no arguments. Gg

TheFM

NO. Do not add a story mode.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Ah.... hmmm. I don't need rewards from a solo "story dungeon mode". In fact.... I don't need rewards at all in this game or any other.

Sure. That's great.
I'm just questioning the motivation for "reduced or no rewards" versus simply using the existing paradigm for how ZOS calculates rewards. No need to change it.
If they calculate an overland-difficulty implementation for a story dungeon mode, then let them use whatever calculations they have for how to reward that implementation. No need for anyone to interfere at all with their calculation. That would be the fairest way.

If it were a chance for overland sets, that'd be fine. Dungeon difficulty sets should not drop in solo mode.

Starlock

YES. We want a story mode.

ZOS_Adrikoth wrote: »

Hey folks, we don't have any plans for a Story Mode at this time but we have read through all of your suggestions and appreciate the feedback that has been provided in this thread.

Thank you so much, @ZOS_Adrikoth , for letting us know where this idea is in terms of development, even if that "where it is" happens to be a "nowhere." If this is something the team may think about for the future, these might be important questions to ask:

What technical challenges present themselves when it comes to developing a single-player story mode for PvE group content (dungeons, trials, arenas)? This would include concerns such as server loads, instancing, quest activation, etc.

How would enemy scaling (or player scaling) and dungeon mechanics need to be changed to accommodate a single-player dungeon run? Are there any dungeons that would require substantial redesign to work with a single player?

How would offering story mode change customer habits or how customers play the game? Would more or fewer people utilize grouping functions for dungeons with the introduction of single-player modes?

What rewards or incentives are offered to the player for running single-player story mode group content, if any? Might there be unique rewards for story mode? A new daily quest for single-player experiences?

How many more customers be willing to pay for dungeon DLC or subscribe to ESO+ if a single-player story mode was offered? Would this adversely impact sales of cash shop motifs from dungeons as a trade-off?

PopotoSalad

Other:

Sure, bring on story mode, as long as there aren't any drops for it. It would be nice to head into normal/vet mode having already completed the quest, so as not to slow my party down.

Linaleah

YES. We want a story mode.

ZOS_Adrikoth wrote: »

Hey folks, we don't have any plans for a Story Mode at this time but we have read through all of your suggestions and appreciate the feedback that has been provided in this thread.

confirmation that you are paying attention is already nice, so thank you I understand why you guys want to tie dungeon DLC's into a larger narrative, it does make sense on a lot of levels. just from the point of view of actualy playing through them for the sake of a story, reality unfortunately doesn't match up to intention

Linaleah

YES. We want a story mode.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Amber322 wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

I think I have a solution for the naysayers, especially the ones who are against any loot being rewarded including the skillpoint.

If there is a member of the party that hasn't done the story make the dungeon require every team member to wait until they have gone through all the dialogue for each npc.

No. If some people get matched with someone the game forces them to wait around for, they'll just drop the group. It would be very difficult to keep a group together.

SWTOR has dialog lock like that and impatient people whisper in chat to press spacebar to skip.
With the type of people you have in ESO you're more liable to get kicked right away. Especially when the dungeon designs often don't need tank or healers. The ones that do -- typically the DLC ones -- no one wants to do anyway. From what I read on the forums, people who draw those as part of random normal daily drop group voluntarily rather than have their daily loot farm slowed down.

that is correct. even when I wanted to do DLC dungeons through dungeon finder, whether i'd actualy get to do them was a hit or miss. seeing half my group drop out the moment they would zone in before even seeing how the first few pulls go (which is where you can gauge if your group can actualy manage the place) we'd back fill, maybe lose another person, and only that other person if lucky, start clearing trash. the moment the MOMENT something goes wrong on a first boss? people drop. no conversation about what we can adjust about our tactics. nope. just drop. every once in a while, you get a group that's willing to stick it out, but even in that group, its more about finishing the dungeon than actualy enjoying its story. those are friendly groups and i appreciate that they exist. they are great if you only care about a clear and a skill point. but even THEY are not common.

there is a reason why they added solo dungeons to swtor. because even when they implemented cutscenes where everyone had to pick an answer before dialogue could progress, people would spacebar and expect others to space bar or get kicked. mind you... you don't get the same rewards in those dungeons that you get in group modes. loot is far worse and generaly its just vendor trash to take care of repairs, a piece of green loot (and in swtor, you cannot upgrade it the way you can in ESO) and a tiny amount of whatever current currency is used to get up to date gear. you COULD farm it. they even gave certain achievements (for example crisis on umbara when done 10 times, would reward ability to buy umbara stronghold regardless of what difficulty you did it on). but it wasn't most efficient way to spend your time. it WAS great if you were interested in story and exploration. it was fantastic to learn the layout of a dungeon so that you don't hopelessly get lost behind when in a group (I've seen new people get turned around even in the most linear of ESO dungeons, and they are no different in SWTOR in that regard)

but anyways, the reality is that you cannot force people to do something they do not want to do in a video game that they pay for to have fun in, and not have as a job that pays them to do things they do not want to do.

aetherial_heavenn

Yes. Although I don’t want a story mode, let people who want it have it.

Group required story mode

A story mode selection in the group finder would suit me if the mechanics applied but the mobs were tuned down to group dps of about 15k. Then we could select this first time in, or every time.

Alternatively, it could be auto selected if the character had not done the quest or got the skill point and a group of other first timers formed. The latter would be better for social interaction. It would also stop new to the dungeon peeps being matched with experienced speed runners. But it would need a reliable group finder and instancing system.

Solo story mode
I'd do this on some content because concentrating on DLC mechanics, and moving at the pace of a group of experienced players means I still haven't got the story behind DoM or ScP clear in my mind. It took me about 20 runs to understand WGT's relationship with the lore.

Sometimes I want to play more slowly but still do group content with others so I prefer the first suggestion. However if the second suggestion were implemented I'd do quite a few on my fail dps character and my crafter to just smell the roses and enjoy the world building. My skill might even improve on the way

EDIT:
However, neither is a priority. Hence my vote. I want resources spent on bug fixes (stuck in combat/dodge roll failing to register with Oceanic ping/game kicks/infinite load screens entering and loading back in trials and Cyrodil all annoy me a lot more.

baratron

Other:

Story mode option for the group finder, so you still do the Dungeon as a dungeon, but everyone knows that the plan is to go slowly and listen to the dialogue.

Option for guilds to set themselves as "Story quests" in the Guild Finder.

Linaleah

YES. We want a story mode.

you know I was just listening to a Game Developer Conference talk by Damion Schubert on why people play MMO's alone. this was from 2011 and other then couple of things he mentioned as being more difficult to implement into UI that this game and a few others have implemented since (like multiple guilds) - that talk is as relevant as ever. I would highly recommend it to people in this thread. including ZoS people TBH.

Dusk_Coven

YES. We want a story mode.

baratron wrote: »

Story mode option for the group finder, so you still do the Dungeon as a dungeon, but everyone knows that the plan is to go slowly and listen to the dialogue.

Option for guilds to set themselves as "Story quests" in the Guild Finder.

It's been done in FFXIV and it doesn't work.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

In FFXIV there is a category of daily random where you will be matched up with a story dungeon and the scenes are unskippable. You are told up front, you will be going into an unskippable cutscene dungeon. It will probably take an hour. But don't worry we will reward you for your time spent helping new players experiencing the fantastic story for the very first time.
… And people still found a workaround by disconnecting and reconnecting. While others are watching the (long) cutscenes, they are wiping the floor with the boss and moving ahead to the next boss fight.
Even when they voluntarily went into a story dungeon mode, they sabotaged it.

So instead of continuing the model, FFXIV did the logical thing to not inconvenience players any more by simply NOT putting huge story cutscenes in their mandatory story content going forward.
In their story-progress-dungeons, the story is told as you run through it. You don't have to stop and no one misses anything. Because the style of storytelling for the dungeons is different.

ZOS's model of inconveniencing people is a dinosaur and needs to go.

DaveMoeDee

YES. We want a story mode.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

baratron wrote: »

Story mode option for the group finder, so you still do the Dungeon as a dungeon, but everyone knows that the plan is to go slowly and listen to the dialogue.

Option for guilds to set themselves as "Story quests" in the Guild Finder.

It's been done in FFXIV and it doesn't work.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

In FFXIV there is a category of daily random where you will be matched up with a story dungeon and the scenes are unskippable. You are told up front, you will be going into an unskippable cutscene dungeon. It will probably take an hour. But don't worry we will reward you for your time spent helping new players experiencing the fantastic story for the very first time.
… And people still found a workaround by disconnecting and reconnecting. While others are watching the (long) cutscenes, they are wiping the floor with the boss and moving ahead to the next boss fight.
Even when they voluntarily went into a story dungeon mode, they sabotaged it.

So instead of continuing the model, FFXIV did the logical thing to not inconvenience players any more by simply NOT putting huge story cutscenes in their mandatory story content going forward.
In their story-progress-dungeons, the story is told as you run through it. You don't have to stop and no one misses anything. Because the style of storytelling for the dungeons is different.

ZOS's model of inconveniencing people is a dinosaur and needs to go.

Except everyone misses the story when it is being told in the middle of combat. Like those audio recordings in BioShock. I love those. But if I am listening to one and get attacked, I need to replay it after to get the narrative. The same in FO76. The fix for that would be long walks where nothing happens, but who wants that in a dungeon?

They should have the story mode with no daily rewards. The reward should be the story. Otherwise, people will try to find a workaround.