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Do you consider the new pet p2w
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Indoril_Nerevar✭✭✭Honestly?
Nothing is even worth a debate, nor an opinion anymore. The forums might as well be a fan based website only - because if ZOS is taking any information from us in consideration to their updates.. . than why the *** did it cause an Apocalypse?!?
1 -
A_Silverius✭✭✭✭✭A_Silverius wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »A modest list of inventory slots available in store prior to the introduction of the Bristleback War Boar non-combat pet.- Bag Space Upgrade 1,000 Crowns
- Bank Space Upgrade 1,000 Crowns
- Crown Lesson: Riding Capacity (10) 1,000 Crowns
- Storage Chest, Fortified 2,000 Crowns
- Storage Chest, Oaken 2,000 Crowns
- Storage Chest, Secure 2,000 Crowns
- Storage Chest, Sturdy 2,000 Crowns
- Storage Coffer, Oaken 1,000 Crowns
- Storage Coffer, Secure 1,000 Crowns
- Storage Coffer, Sturdy 1000 Crowns
- Additional Character Slot (10) 1,500 Crowns
- ESO +
This does not include the other forms of convenience the store offers like Bankers, Merchants, Vampirism, Lycanthropy, Skilllines, Skill Shards, Race Changes as well as a Class and the Paywalled Race.
But sure, these 5 slots attached to a non-combat pet is the corner ZOS has finally turned towards P2W.
The difference is all of the above could be earned in-game other than additional character slot and eso+. Now we can expect more inventory and bank space to be placed behind a paywall.
and ESO+ is by a longshot the most important one on that list considering it doubles your bank space, doubles your furnishing space AND gives you the infinite craft bag.
You know, you've done it - you've inspired me. I wasn't going to do it, but I'm going to go vote with my wallet and buy the pig. It's such a non-issue it's hilarious watching people writhe over it like it's fundamentally game changing.
Don't let me keep you from making your own decisions man, when ZO$ starts implementing more paywalls until it resembles SWTOR's mtx model you'll understand. At least swtor lets you keep all the expansions even after your subscription ends.All over Tamriel, theres a sudden spike in Bosmers getting caught for their crimes. A sad day indeed... #FightForYourRite Give Bosmers back our stealth!1 -
A_Silverius✭✭✭✭✭Indoril_Nerevar wrote: »Honestly?
Nothing is even worth a debate, nor an opinion anymore. The forums might as well be a fan based website only - because if ZOS is taking any information from us in consideration to their updates.. . than why the *** did it cause an Apocalypse?!?
Should be renamed:
Forums > English > General ESO Discussion Roast and insult people's intelligence for having different opinionsAll over Tamriel, theres a sudden spike in Bosmers getting caught for their crimes. A sad day indeed... #FightForYourRite Give Bosmers back our stealth!4 -
Owondyah✭✭✭it's not p2w....
It's not something I like either...
Direction where it leads is direction where game shouldn't go...
just my 2 cents1 -
Contaminate✭✭✭✭✭
✭An interesting thing, everyone is so keen on the issue of p2w regarding the new pet, but absolutely do not notice low-level pvp, where 10 level players run with purchased skyshards, guilds and thus have a tremendous superiority over the others
We do, and did when the skill point packs and skill line instaboosts got released, but people (the same ones really) claimed it wasn’t P2W because “who plays <50 anyway” and “but you don’t instantly get GO or Emperor” or my favorite “but it can’t make a meh player instantly win against a skilled player so it doesn’t count”1 -
MajBludd✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So pay to win is having more bag space?
How does having more bag space help you beat content or other players?1 -
Contaminate✭✭✭✭✭
✭So pay to win is having more bag space?
How does having more bag space help you beat content or other players?
The pet isn't a textbook definition of P2W like the skill lines and skill point packs are (and no, no one can honestly deny they cause extreme discrepancies in <50 campaigns) but it's still a method of milking players despite the company being completely able to offer free solutions such as more storage coffers for writs and Tel Var, or additional gold-purchased bank and bag upgrades with every quarterly patch.
The inventory management issue persists so ZOS can sell you "solutions" like ESO+ and this pet, of which there will certainly be more of because people are praising this crown-store-only bag upgrade. The mount slow-down being reintroduced likely paves a way for a "buy this to not slow down when your mount runs out of stamina" upgrade. They do this intentionally.4 -
Contaminate✭✭✭✭✭
✭@/Contaminate dont horde, is all I can say. We managed before the crafting bag.
We also had far, far fewer items and sets before the craft bag too.
Anyone who plays multiple classes and multiple roles will have inventory problems, no hoarding necessary.
We had a somewhat manageable amount of items before the craft bag, but more are being added every patch. There wasn’t such a thing as poisons before Dark Brotherhood dropped. Any random reagent might become the next ingredient for a BiS recipe. Entire new systems get added in 1/10ths doses to double the space required to make use of them.
And yet with hundreds more mats and reagents and sets, we’ve never gotten more bank or bag space upgrades made available in the game.
Edited for a sh ton of typosEdited by Contaminate on November 13, 2019 11:48AM2 -
nickl413✭✭✭✭No, and I have ESO+Some people have strange ideas of what constitutes winning. Apparently it means paying to obtain something that someone else cannot obtain without paying. In that case, crown-only housing and crown store exclusive motifs are P2W. Buying the game is P2W because people who don't buy the game can't play.
Now they offer 5 extra slots per character? ZOS has gone too far! We all know you can't score 600k in vma without max bag space. With the pig you can get 800k score easy. People are going to be running around cyrodiil with extra bag space reking fools. Imagine the pre-mades in BGs with all 4 team members running pig. This is getting out of hand ZOS!1 -
kitsune_beth✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
Then why bother paying real money when you can use the stable to increase your mount capacity for 250G a day? Weird.
The pet itself must look very cool or something.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IDK/Prefer not to answerkitsune_beth wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Then why bother paying real money when you can use the stable to increase your mount capacity for 250G a day? Weird.
The pet itself must look very cool or something.
...and after you have your 60 slots from the mount?0 -
kitsune_beth✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »kitsune_beth wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Then why bother paying real money when you can use the stable to increase your mount capacity for 250G a day? Weird.
The pet itself must look very cool or something.
...and after you have your 60 slots from the mount?
You can buy backpack space for gold too - I think total is something like 200 - just how much space does someone need? 0 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭No, and I have ESO+A_Silverius wrote: »A_Silverius wrote: »A_Silverius wrote: »Hippie4927 wrote: »Please explain how 5 extra inventory slots is P2W.
Few months down the line - "Please explain how 20 extra inventory slots is P2W"
One year later and 50+ pets x 5 slots - ???!!!
A string of hypothetical situations is not an explanation for how 5 extra inventory slots is P2W and is not particularly compelling.
You've sorely misunderstood my point. It wasn't an explanation for how 5 extra inventory slots is P2W but how it could lead to a "hypothetical situation" where it could be considered p2w and neither was it* my aim to impress you or anyone.
I can already see it in the crown store:
20 extra inventory slots + 4 reskinned pets bundle - 2500 crowns.
50 extra inventory slots + 10 reskinned pets bundle - 5000 crowns
100 extra inventory slots + 20 reskinned pets bundle - 9000 crowns
Here's another hypothetical situation, maybe they won't even reskin pets but instead reuse the existing pets and stick a 5 extra inventory slots to each of them and sell them in the above mentioned hypothetical crown store bundles too.
But ofc this is all just hypothetical!
You've sorely misunderstood what the word 'compelling' means and putting quotes around the word hypothetical doesn't make it less hypothetical. Conjecture is not helpful to the discussion.
Even if what you've suggested is the case, it's not Pay to Win - it's still Pay to Convenience. Even if it were 1000 additional inventory slots, inventory provides no advantage over other players aside from convenience. That would imply that a banker or merchant is an unfair advantage. If that is what you believe, you may want to consider playing a game without a cash shop. You can call it greedy - I do. You may have a negative opinion of the crown store - a lot of people do. Neither of these opinions are relevant to the P2W discussion. It seems to me that this P2W accusation comes from people who have never played a game that is actually P2W and have no frame of reference. You can hypothesize all you want, but not one person has been able to provide anything demonstrable that would suggest that an additional Ballista or stack of trash potions in your inventory is going to provide the crux for victory in Cyrodil.It's pretty impressive how many amazing players come out of the woodwork whose PvP losses are so marginal that they could be attributed to the other teams acquisition of 5 additional inventory slots. It's almost as if buying a non-combat pet has turned the average player into a living god.
If it was my aim to be compelling, surely what I wrote would've been marked with content meant to impress for it to be considered "compelling" wouldn't it? Regardless that was not my intention, it was more of a warning of what it could possibly be like in the future of predatory mtxs.
It seems someone has already explained that the banker and merchant assistants are disabled in pvp for obvious reasons.
If you've been reading why people people are not in favour of this than you'd understand that it's not just the 5+ inventory slots that we have a problem with but what it could mean for the future of ZO$' monetisation practices. It is not a conjecture when the proof is right there in the crown store for only 1200 crowns, and you know there's going to be more of where that came from since there are people who are supporting this business practice.
Judging by several posts you've made here, it's clear that you're more interested in exercising your mental gymnastics and mixing word salads than the actual discussion. Consistently questioning people's understanding of certain words isn't helpful to the discussion either.If you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the words 'advantage' or 'demonstrable' mean this makes sense.as I previously stated, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the word 'advantage' means. If you come to a race barefoot you are a moron - not a victim of the Crown Store. What an embarrassing allegory.
Lets be honest and put it plainly, you're low key insulting our friend @Rave the Histborn here when you said that and its an obvious attempt to bait a reaction out of him which I should remind you that it is a violation of the forum community rules.
"If it was my aim to be compelling, surely what I wrote would've been marked with content meant to impress for it to be considered "compelling" wouldn't it? Regardless that was not my intention, it was more of a warning of what it could possibly be like in the future of predatory mtxs."
No, it would have to be a sound argument for it to be compelling. Whether it is impressive or not is completely irrelevant. I don't understand what the point of sharing a warning or an argument if the goal is not to change people's minds or convince people to heed your warning. Might as well be screaming your opinion into the abyss.
"If you've been reading why people people are not in favour of this than you'd understand that it's not just the 5+ inventory slots that we have a problem with but what it could mean for the future of ZO$' monetisation practices. It is not a conjecture when the proof is right there in the crown store for only 1200 crowns, and you know there's going to be more of where that came from since there are people who are supporting this business practice."
If you've been reading my posts, you would understand that I've already stated that these Crown Store practices are greedy and I've already acknowledged that there are a lot of people who have a negative opinion of the Crown Store. This argument is not about the Crown Store - it's about whether or not 5 additional slots is Pay to Win. Don't conflate the two. It's obvious where the monetization practices are headed and most people don't require other's grand foresight to figure it out.
*I can already see it in the crown store:
20 extra inventory slots + 4 reskinned pets bundle - 2500 crowns.
50 extra inventory slots + 10 reskinned pets bundle - 5000 crowns
100 extra inventory slots + 20 reskinned pets bundle - 9000 crowns*
That is conjecture. That's literally all that it is, because you can't actually see that in the Crown Store.
"It seems someone has already explained that the banker and merchant assistants are disabled in pvp for obvious reasons."
Sure, obvious reasons, but that doesn't make a banker or merchant Pay to Win. That was the argument.
"Judging by several posts you've made here, it's clear that you're more interested in exercising your mental gymnastics and mixing word salads than the actual discussion. Consistently questioning people's understanding of certain words isn't helpful to the discussion either."
It's not my fault that terms like "unfair advantage" are being substituted for 'luxury' or 'convenience'. There is a distinction between them and if you refuse to acknowledge the distinction, then you either don't understand the words or you're being deliberately obstinate. Pick the one you would prefer.
"Lets be honest and put it plainly, you're low key insulting our friend @Rave the Histborn here when you said that and its an obvious attempt to bait a reaction out of him which I should remind you that it is a violation of the forum community rules.[/quote]"
I love this 'we' speak, as if this is not just you white knighting for somebody else who shares your opinion. Leave the finger wagging to ZoS and stop moralizing to others because someone you agree with got their feelings hurt. They had no interest in having a genial discussion about this topic and were antagonistic from the beginning. Their last post was edited for that reason, as well, but you feel like you can let that slide as long as they agree with you.
Tombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"0 -
HidesFromSun✭✭✭Yes, and I have ESO+I think I selected the wrong one. It's not P2W but it's a first step down a very slippery slope1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IDK/Prefer not to answerBecause 5 spaces per character doesn't even put a dent in storage capacity don't mean diddly.
I don't think that this is about one pack pet. Fast forward 5 years and put yourself into the position of a player who is looking at 10 or 20 of those pets, and the slots that they represent.
If all ZOS does is one pack pet, maybe not an issue? If ZOS does 20 of them? What constitutes a "dent"?1 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, and I have ESO+NordSwordnBoard wrote: »@Rave the Histborn I disagree about PvP:
Merchant and banker becoming LOS obstacles is probably more reasonable for not being in PvP. Siege can't stack in PvP, but there are limits to its effectiveness. You come across merchants for siege often enough (unless you purposely avoid the objectives) that a player with 200 siege has no advantage over another with 25 siege other than convenience.
I can understand that but if LoS was really such an issue they'd have to change up Sorcs and how their pets function along with monster sets that summon pets.
A player with 200 siege has an obvious advantage over a player with 20 siege, there's no real way around it. They have the ability to place more siege without worry of running out at a much faster rate. I don't get the "pay for convenience" argument, isn't that all pay to win. If they sold a weapon to one hit everything isn't that paying for the convenience of not fighting things? It's still pay to wnRave the Histborn wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Franckystationb16_ESO wrote: »Nordic__Knights wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »The boar is giftable that means that 360k gold is the regular price of the new pet. Don't tell me you are not capable of making 360k gold. Just by doing daily writts on all characters every day will grant you that in a week.
At the end of the day someone had to put money real life money into the store in order to sell those crowns or the pet as a gift for in-game gold
when a game offers you in store the most powerful weapon of a game or an armor or an instant exp we talk about P2W, there is the inventory, moreover in most MMO online slots inventory can be bought in store, there is no question of "P2W" review your definitions and the meaning of the sentences
Pay to win means paying for an advantage, not paying for a single player style weapon that one shots all enemies.
Emm not exactly. P2W has meant that you could by something in the cash shop that would make your character stronger in combat than it could be with what is obtained in game. It would include a weapon that one shot enemies if nothing better was available in game.
In other words, this pet is not even close to P2W. If Zos sold a new tier of upgrade material past legendary (gold) that would be P2W. vMA weapons could be considered P2W if Zos did not grant total access to all DLCs during the free trials.
No pay to win is an advantage.A_Silverius wrote: »A_Silverius wrote: »Hippie4927 wrote: »Please explain how 5 extra inventory slots is P2W.
Few months down the line - "Please explain how 20 extra inventory slots is P2W"
One year later and 50+ pets x 5 slots - ???!!!
A string of hypothetical situations is not an explanation for how 5 extra inventory slots is P2W and is not particularly compelling.
You've sorely misunderstood my point. It wasn't an explanation for how 5 extra inventory slots is P2W but how it could lead to a "hypothetical situation" where it could be considered p2w and neither was it* my aim to impress you or anyone.
I can already see it in the crown store:
20 extra inventory slots + 4 reskinned pets bundle - 2500 crowns.
50 extra inventory slots + 10 reskinned pets bundle - 5000 crowns
100 extra inventory slots + 20 reskinned pets bundle - 9000 crowns
Here's another hypothetical situation, maybe they won't even reskin pets but instead reuse the existing pets and stick a 5 extra inventory slots to each of them and sell them in the above mentioned hypothetical crown store bundles too.
But ofc this is all just hypothetical!
You've sorely misunderstood what the word 'compelling' means and putting quotes around the word hypothetical doesn't make it less hypothetical. Conjecture is not helpful to the discussion.
Even if what you've suggested is the case, it's not Pay to Win - it's still Pay to Convenience. Even if it were 1000 additional inventory slots, inventory provides no advantage over other players aside from convenience. That would imply that a banker or merchant is an unfair advantage. If that is what you believe, you may want to consider playing a game without a cash shop. You can call it greedy - I do. You may have a negative opinion of the crown store - a lot of people do. Neither of these opinions are relevant to the P2W discussion. It seems to me that this P2W accusation comes from people who have never played a game that is actually P2W and have no frame of reference. You can hypothesize all you want, but not one person has been able to provide anything demonstrable that would suggest that an additional Ballista or stack of trash potions in your inventory is going to provide the crux for victory in Cyrodil.
it's not Pay to Win - it's still Pay to Convenience.
Have you ever actually played a pay to win game? That is the whole point of pay to win.
Even if it were 1000 additional inventory slots, inventory provides no advantage over other players aside from convenience.
Except for the additional 1000 inventory slots which are pay to win as you are PAYING FOR AN ADVANTAGE NON PAYING PLAYERS ARE ABLE TO GET. This is an advantage over other players, if you can keep going through dungeons without ever having to sell/decon compared to a player with 200 inventory slots. 5x your inventory space is a giant advantage because it means more time spent playing vs managing inventory.
You can hypothesize all you want, but not one person has been able to provide anything demonstrable that would suggest that an additional Ballista or stack of trash potions in your inventory is going to provide the crux for victory in Cyrodil.
So if we take your hypothetical situation and say we have a pug of 20 players that have paid to have 1000 inventory slots vs 20 pug players with 200 inventory slots. Now PVP siege generally doesn't stack so who do you think is going to have a greater advantage in Cyrodiil. The players with enough slots to hold unlimited pvp plus additional resources and armor sets so they never have to access a merchant or the other group with the standard inventory space? Hmmm seems like something like that could be the crux for victory in Cyrodiil.
If you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the words 'advantage' or 'demonstrable' mean this makes sense. It's pretty impressive how many amazing players come out of the woodwork whose PvP losses are so marginal that they could be attributed to the other teams acquisition of 5 additional inventory slots. It's almost as if buying a non-combat pet has turned the average player into a living god.
"Except for the additional 1000 inventory slots which are pay to win as you are PAYING FOR AN ADVANTAGE NON PAYING PLAYERS ARE ABLE TO GET. This is an advantage over other players, if you can keep going through dungeons without ever having to sell/decon compared to a player with 200 inventory slots. 5x your inventory space is a giant advantage because it means more time spent playing vs managing inventory."
Except 1000 inventory slots is obvious hyperbole and you just spent however long attempting to refute a blatant exaggeration. As previously stated in the post that you copied but failed to actually read, *that would imply that a banker or merchant is an unfair advantage. If that is what you believe, you may want to consider playing a game without a cash shop.*
5 additional inventory slots that you pay to get and have no way of earning in game is pay to win, it is a paid advantage over other players. An advantage doesn't mean one player is a god and the other player isn't, if we ran a race and I paid for running shoes and you went barefoot then that is a paid advantage.
"Except 1000 inventory slots is obvious hyperbole and you just spent however long attempting to refute a blatant exaggeration. "
Obviously it's hyperbole, I don't think you get that your own argument is a case against your point. What's the difference between 5 inventory slots extra or 500 extra or 5000 extra? It's still a paid advantage no matter how you spin it.
"As previously stated in the post that you copied but failed to actually read, *that would imply that a banker or merchant is an unfair advantage. If that is what you believe, you may want to consider playing a game without a cash shop.*"
Obviously it's pay to win XD, why do you think it's disabled in PVP? That's a competitive environment and if you were in a situation where you run out of siege how is it a fair advantage to just pull up the banker and take out some siege vs a player that can't buy the banker that has to go out of the way to find an available siege merchant. Also the banker has 480 slots with ESO+ if you include that with a characters max inventory of 205 now that is 685 slots total.
I'm not opposed to the cash shop, I've said it before, spend your money how you want if you can but be willing to call it what it is.
[Edit to remove bait]
"5 additional inventory slots that you pay to get and have no way of earning in game is pay to win, it is a paid advantage over other players. An advantage doesn't mean one player is a god and the other player isn't, if we ran a race and I paid for running shoes and you went barefoot then that is a paid advantage."
It's evident that you're going to continue to double down on whatever wacky definition of advantage that you've imagined. If every luxury or convenience service that you can buy off of the Crown Store is Pay to Win then, as I previously stated, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the word 'advantage' means. If you come to a race barefoot you are a moron - not a victim of the Crown Store. What an embarrassing allegory.
"Obviously it's pay to win XD, why do you think it's disabled in PVP? That's a competitive environment and if you were in a situation where you run out of siege how is it a fair advantage to just pull up the banker and take out some siege vs a player that can't buy the banker that has to go out of the way to find an available siege merchant. Also the banker has 480 slots with ESO+ if you include that with a characters max inventory of 205 now that is 685 slots total. "
You're going to blow me out by making an unsubstantiated claim? Sick. A banker is obviously not Pay to Win if you can't use it in PvP. This line of reasoning would also suggest that a) players are filling up their inventory to the brim with siege b) siege is what determines who wins and who loses in PvP. Both of which are untrue, but this argument holds even less water with PvP that doesn't involve siege at all whatsoever. Besides the fact that there are plenty of people who participate in Cyrodil PvP that don't siege period. Are those people at a disadvantage too? Of course not, because 5 inventory slots don't add any efficacy to your character in any pillar of play. All that I hear is that you're attempting to mask your inadequacy by making excuses and projecting on people that spend money in the crown store. I wouldn't play a Pay to Win game, and I think that most people would identify with that sentiment. If you believe this game is Pay to Win, why are you playing?
[Edit to remove references of quoted content that was removed]
Ok because you don't seem to understand the meaning of words.
ad·van·tage
/ədˈvan(t)ij/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a condition or circumstance that puts one in a favorable or superior position.
"companies with a computerized database are at an advantage"
Now hopefully you're able to grasp that an advantage is ANYTHING that gives you a competitive edge. This also includes inventory spaces. Also when it comes to barefoot races in my example I'm also correct but hey, maybe the complete moron that can't even grasp basic English is going to disprove that. Oh wait no, they don't even know the definitions of the words they're using.
"You're going to blow me out by making an unsubstantiated claim? Sick."
What was unsubstantiated? Should I go copy and paste this definition as well because you heard the word once and don't understand the meaning behind it?
"A banker is obviously not Pay to Win if you can't use it in PvP.""
Why can't you use the thing you paid for in PVP? Is it because ZOS knows stuff like this is pay to win and all of the added inventory spaces would give you a huge advantage. Hey man, if all the stuff in the crownstore isn't pay to win it's pay for convenience, why can't I use my convenience item in the only truly competitive mode in the game? Is it just pay to win in PVP?
"This line of reasoning would also suggest that a) players are filling up their inventory to the brim with siege b) siege is what determines who wins and who loses in PvP. Both of which are untrue, but this argument holds even less water with PvP that doesn't involve siege at all whatsoever."
Checks how PVP works. Factions still get points from scoring by capturing keeps/scrolls/outposts through siege. This means siege still determines who wins and loses in PVP. There's nothing you could hold at all in non siege pvp either to gain an advantage. Conveniently forgets about additional armor sets/potions you could get in between respawns to either help killing/objective running/ etc.
"Besides the fact that there are plenty of people who participate in Cyrodil PvP that don't siege period."
Opinion is fact now? Also lets say plenty of peolpe is 50% of Cyrodiil players, that leaves 50% who do siege. That's a large population that I'm sure could use 5 extra slots to their advantage.
"Are those people at a disadvantage too? Of course not, because 5 inventory slots don't add any efficacy to your character in any pillar of play."
Of course it is, but based on your previous sentences you don't seem to have ever PVP'd as you don't think siege plays a role in Cyrodiil in anyway. 5 inventory slots is 1000 potions in PVP and I know you thought you had a "gotcha" before when you were talking about 1k of this and 1k of that being exaggerations but here we are again at 1000 extra of something. Hey though, I guess when you bought ESO for the forums access and never played the game that'll happen.
"that I hear is that you're attempting to mask your inadequacy by making excuses and projecting on people that spend money in the crown store."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, that's rich coming from a person that's advocating for crown store sales to compensate for their own gameplay. But what else should be expected from someone that thinks siege is just used for show in Cyrodiil. Have you ever considered buying Fallout 76? I think their monetization is right up your alley. Oh and if you want to screenshot your playtime and PVP rank I'll gladly post mine and embarrass you further.
"I wouldn't play a Pay to Win game, and I think that most people would identify with that sentiment. If you believe this game is Pay to Win, why are you playing?"
I'm going to have to wholey disagree with you on that one, you'd just label it something else to make you feel better like you're doing now. "It's not pay to win, it's just pay for convenience" "Inventory doesn't help you at all. There's no extra items you can use to make the game easier." I guess it can't be pay to win though if you do everything to change the definition which is the problem. Weird that it's not pay to win, it's just under the umbrella of everything pay to win encompasses.
The reason I play is because I started playing years ago wayyy before a lot of the current monetization model became what it is now and before a lot of executives were hired from other MMOs that were under more P2W models. I've put in more then enough time at this point that these changes really don't affect me as much. If you also bothered to read any of my posts I've said multiple times in the past and in this thread. I don't care how you spend your money, you're an adult do what you want. I do care that you're unwilling to call it what it is which is P2W. That doesn't mean I don't understand what they're doing in the long run.2 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, and I have ESO+Rave the Histborn wrote: »Franckystationb16_ESO wrote: »Nordic__Knights wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »The boar is giftable that means that 360k gold is the regular price of the new pet. Don't tell me you are not capable of making 360k gold. Just by doing daily writts on all characters every day will grant you that in a week.
At the end of the day someone had to put money real life money into the store in order to sell those crowns or the pet as a gift for in-game gold
when a game offers you in store the most powerful weapon of a game or an armor or an instant exp we talk about P2W, there is the inventory, moreover in most MMO online slots inventory can be bought in store, there is no question of "P2W" review your definitions and the meaning of the sentences
Pay to win means paying for an advantage, not paying for a single player style weapon that one shots all enemies.
So 5 extra inventory slots will let me be emperor, take the top spots on the trials leaderboards, and totally dominate battlegrounds. Nice to know.
Although....I don't pvp, so being able to carry 5 more items isn't going to make the current emperor bow down before me.... I haven't even bothered/managed to do the version 2s of the undaunted pledges, so I doubt being able to carry 5 more items is going to make the current leaders throw up their hands in despair and leave the field to me....Never yet set foot in any battleground, so if everyone else will immediately jump off cliffs to make it easy for me to "win" just because I can carry 5 more items, that would be very nice and polite of them.
Do you mean the "advantage" is I can pick up 5 more items in a dungeon run before someone calls the banker or merchant? Kinda not though; if others don't have the "advantage" the banker/merchant is called before my inventory is full, so I still use them just like everyone else and people are good to go. If I'm only doing pve and solo content, then exactly how is being able to pick up 5 more items before I call the banker/merchant any kind of an advantage?
Let me buy armor that ignores all attacks; a weapon that ignores magic shields, real shields, armor, everything and one shots dragons, a potion that boosts every stat to the thousands and heals over 9000 a second....that would be an advantage.
"So 5 extra inventory slots will let me be emperor, take the top spots on the trials leaderboards, and totally dominate battlegrounds. Nice to know."
Sorry, I didn't realize it's only P2W if you're a god or they're selling you gamebreaking items. I guess all those mobile games that lock chests and things behind timers aren't P2W because you're just paying for the convenience of opening those chests and the items they have don't matter. I'm sure they'll be happy to hear that. Oh and I hate to tell you but if you're gunning for leaderboards in Cyro then yes anything to save time including extra siege slots is an advantage.
"I haven't even bothered/managed to do the version 2s of the undaunted pledges, so I doubt being able to carry 5 more items is going to make the current leaders throw up their hands in despair and leave the field to me"
Gotcha, so you don't PVP and you don't have any experience in vet dungeons or anything beyond the most basic of content. Well thanks for the take? You've got the right to voice your opinion just as I have the right to tell you that you don't have enough exp to really chime in on it.
"Let me buy armor that ignores all attacks; a weapon that ignores magic shields, real shields, armor, everything and one shots dragons, a potion that boosts every stat to the thousands and heals over 9000 a second....that would be an advantage."
https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/https://blogs-images.forbes.com/insertcoin/files/2014/02/dungeon-keeper.jpg
https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/https://blogs-images.forbes.com/paultassi/files/2019/04/blades-new1.jpg
It can still be P2W if they sell you regular stuff.2 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭No, and I have ESO+Rave the Histborn wrote: »NordSwordnBoard wrote: »@Rave the Histborn I disagree about PvP:
Merchant and banker becoming LOS obstacles is probably more reasonable for not being in PvP. Siege can't stack in PvP, but there are limits to its effectiveness. You come across merchants for siege often enough (unless you purposely avoid the objectives) that a player with 200 siege has no advantage over another with 25 siege other than convenience.
I can understand that but if LoS was really such an issue they'd have to change up Sorcs and how their pets function along with monster sets that summon pets.
A player with 200 siege has an obvious advantage over a player with 20 siege, there's no real way around it. They have the ability to place more siege without worry of running out at a much faster rate. I don't get the "pay for convenience" argument, isn't that all pay to win. If they sold a weapon to one hit everything isn't that paying for the convenience of not fighting things? It's still pay to wnRave the Histborn wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Franckystationb16_ESO wrote: »Nordic__Knights wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »The boar is giftable that means that 360k gold is the regular price of the new pet. Don't tell me you are not capable of making 360k gold. Just by doing daily writts on all characters every day will grant you that in a week.
At the end of the day someone had to put money real life money into the store in order to sell those crowns or the pet as a gift for in-game gold
when a game offers you in store the most powerful weapon of a game or an armor or an instant exp we talk about P2W, there is the inventory, moreover in most MMO online slots inventory can be bought in store, there is no question of "P2W" review your definitions and the meaning of the sentences
Pay to win means paying for an advantage, not paying for a single player style weapon that one shots all enemies.
Emm not exactly. P2W has meant that you could by something in the cash shop that would make your character stronger in combat than it could be with what is obtained in game. It would include a weapon that one shot enemies if nothing better was available in game.
In other words, this pet is not even close to P2W. If Zos sold a new tier of upgrade material past legendary (gold) that would be P2W. vMA weapons could be considered P2W if Zos did not grant total access to all DLCs during the free trials.
No pay to win is an advantage.A_Silverius wrote: »A_Silverius wrote: »Hippie4927 wrote: »Please explain how 5 extra inventory slots is P2W.
Few months down the line - "Please explain how 20 extra inventory slots is P2W"
One year later and 50+ pets x 5 slots - ???!!!
A string of hypothetical situations is not an explanation for how 5 extra inventory slots is P2W and is not particularly compelling.
You've sorely misunderstood my point. It wasn't an explanation for how 5 extra inventory slots is P2W but how it could lead to a "hypothetical situation" where it could be considered p2w and neither was it* my aim to impress you or anyone.
I can already see it in the crown store:
20 extra inventory slots + 4 reskinned pets bundle - 2500 crowns.
50 extra inventory slots + 10 reskinned pets bundle - 5000 crowns
100 extra inventory slots + 20 reskinned pets bundle - 9000 crowns
Here's another hypothetical situation, maybe they won't even reskin pets but instead reuse the existing pets and stick a 5 extra inventory slots to each of them and sell them in the above mentioned hypothetical crown store bundles too.
But ofc this is all just hypothetical!
You've sorely misunderstood what the word 'compelling' means and putting quotes around the word hypothetical doesn't make it less hypothetical. Conjecture is not helpful to the discussion.
Even if what you've suggested is the case, it's not Pay to Win - it's still Pay to Convenience. Even if it were 1000 additional inventory slots, inventory provides no advantage over other players aside from convenience. That would imply that a banker or merchant is an unfair advantage. If that is what you believe, you may want to consider playing a game without a cash shop. You can call it greedy - I do. You may have a negative opinion of the crown store - a lot of people do. Neither of these opinions are relevant to the P2W discussion. It seems to me that this P2W accusation comes from people who have never played a game that is actually P2W and have no frame of reference. You can hypothesize all you want, but not one person has been able to provide anything demonstrable that would suggest that an additional Ballista or stack of trash potions in your inventory is going to provide the crux for victory in Cyrodil.
it's not Pay to Win - it's still Pay to Convenience.
Have you ever actually played a pay to win game? That is the whole point of pay to win.
Even if it were 1000 additional inventory slots, inventory provides no advantage over other players aside from convenience.
Except for the additional 1000 inventory slots which are pay to win as you are PAYING FOR AN ADVANTAGE NON PAYING PLAYERS ARE ABLE TO GET. This is an advantage over other players, if you can keep going through dungeons without ever having to sell/decon compared to a player with 200 inventory slots. 5x your inventory space is a giant advantage because it means more time spent playing vs managing inventory.
You can hypothesize all you want, but not one person has been able to provide anything demonstrable that would suggest that an additional Ballista or stack of trash potions in your inventory is going to provide the crux for victory in Cyrodil.
So if we take your hypothetical situation and say we have a pug of 20 players that have paid to have 1000 inventory slots vs 20 pug players with 200 inventory slots. Now PVP siege generally doesn't stack so who do you think is going to have a greater advantage in Cyrodiil. The players with enough slots to hold unlimited pvp plus additional resources and armor sets so they never have to access a merchant or the other group with the standard inventory space? Hmmm seems like something like that could be the crux for victory in Cyrodiil.
If you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the words 'advantage' or 'demonstrable' mean this makes sense. It's pretty impressive how many amazing players come out of the woodwork whose PvP losses are so marginal that they could be attributed to the other teams acquisition of 5 additional inventory slots. It's almost as if buying a non-combat pet has turned the average player into a living god.
"Except for the additional 1000 inventory slots which are pay to win as you are PAYING FOR AN ADVANTAGE NON PAYING PLAYERS ARE ABLE TO GET. This is an advantage over other players, if you can keep going through dungeons without ever having to sell/decon compared to a player with 200 inventory slots. 5x your inventory space is a giant advantage because it means more time spent playing vs managing inventory."
Except 1000 inventory slots is obvious hyperbole and you just spent however long attempting to refute a blatant exaggeration. As previously stated in the post that you copied but failed to actually read, *that would imply that a banker or merchant is an unfair advantage. If that is what you believe, you may want to consider playing a game without a cash shop.*
5 additional inventory slots that you pay to get and have no way of earning in game is pay to win, it is a paid advantage over other players. An advantage doesn't mean one player is a god and the other player isn't, if we ran a race and I paid for running shoes and you went barefoot then that is a paid advantage.
"Except 1000 inventory slots is obvious hyperbole and you just spent however long attempting to refute a blatant exaggeration. "
Obviously it's hyperbole, I don't think you get that your own argument is a case against your point. What's the difference between 5 inventory slots extra or 500 extra or 5000 extra? It's still a paid advantage no matter how you spin it.
"As previously stated in the post that you copied but failed to actually read, *that would imply that a banker or merchant is an unfair advantage. If that is what you believe, you may want to consider playing a game without a cash shop.*"
Obviously it's pay to win XD, why do you think it's disabled in PVP? That's a competitive environment and if you were in a situation where you run out of siege how is it a fair advantage to just pull up the banker and take out some siege vs a player that can't buy the banker that has to go out of the way to find an available siege merchant. Also the banker has 480 slots with ESO+ if you include that with a characters max inventory of 205 now that is 685 slots total.
I'm not opposed to the cash shop, I've said it before, spend your money how you want if you can but be willing to call it what it is.
[Edit to remove bait]
"5 additional inventory slots that you pay to get and have no way of earning in game is pay to win, it is a paid advantage over other players. An advantage doesn't mean one player is a god and the other player isn't, if we ran a race and I paid for running shoes and you went barefoot then that is a paid advantage."
It's evident that you're going to continue to double down on whatever wacky definition of advantage that you've imagined. If every luxury or convenience service that you can buy off of the Crown Store is Pay to Win then, as I previously stated, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the word 'advantage' means. If you come to a race barefoot you are a moron - not a victim of the Crown Store. What an embarrassing allegory.
"Obviously it's pay to win XD, why do you think it's disabled in PVP? That's a competitive environment and if you were in a situation where you run out of siege how is it a fair advantage to just pull up the banker and take out some siege vs a player that can't buy the banker that has to go out of the way to find an available siege merchant. Also the banker has 480 slots with ESO+ if you include that with a characters max inventory of 205 now that is 685 slots total. "
You're going to blow me out by making an unsubstantiated claim? Sick. A banker is obviously not Pay to Win if you can't use it in PvP. This line of reasoning would also suggest that a) players are filling up their inventory to the brim with siege b) siege is what determines who wins and who loses in PvP. Both of which are untrue, but this argument holds even less water with PvP that doesn't involve siege at all whatsoever. Besides the fact that there are plenty of people who participate in Cyrodil PvP that don't siege period. Are those people at a disadvantage too? Of course not, because 5 inventory slots don't add any efficacy to your character in any pillar of play. All that I hear is that you're attempting to mask your inadequacy by making excuses and projecting on people that spend money in the crown store. I wouldn't play a Pay to Win game, and I think that most people would identify with that sentiment. If you believe this game is Pay to Win, why are you playing?
[Edit to remove references of quoted content that was removed]
Ok because you don't seem to understand the meaning of words.
ad·van·tage
/ədˈvan(t)ij/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a condition or circumstance that puts one in a favorable or superior position.
"companies with a computerized database are at an advantage"
Now hopefully you're able to grasp that an advantage is ANYTHING that gives you a competitive edge. This also includes inventory spaces. Also when it comes to barefoot races in my example I'm also correct but hey, maybe the complete moron that can't even grasp basic English is going to disprove that. Oh wait no, they don't even know the definitions of the words they're using.
"You're going to blow me out by making an unsubstantiated claim? Sick."
What was unsubstantiated? Should I go copy and paste this definition as well because you heard the word once and don't understand the meaning behind it?
"A banker is obviously not Pay to Win if you can't use it in PvP.""
Why can't you use the thing you paid for in PVP? Is it because ZOS knows stuff like this is pay to win and all of the added inventory spaces would give you a huge advantage. Hey man, if all the stuff in the crownstore isn't pay to win it's pay for convenience, why can't I use my convenience item in the only truly competitive mode in the game? Is it just pay to win in PVP?
"This line of reasoning would also suggest that a) players are filling up their inventory to the brim with siege b) siege is what determines who wins and who loses in PvP. Both of which are untrue, but this argument holds even less water with PvP that doesn't involve siege at all whatsoever."
Checks how PVP works. Factions still get points from scoring by capturing keeps/scrolls/outposts through siege. This means siege still determines who wins and loses in PVP. There's nothing you could hold at all in non siege pvp either to gain an advantage. Conveniently forgets about additional armor sets/potions you could get in between respawns to either help killing/objective running/ etc.
"Besides the fact that there are plenty of people who participate in Cyrodil PvP that don't siege period."
Opinion is fact now? Also lets say plenty of peolpe is 50% of Cyrodiil players, that leaves 50% who do siege. That's a large population that I'm sure could use 5 extra slots to their advantage.
"Are those people at a disadvantage too? Of course not, because 5 inventory slots don't add any efficacy to your character in any pillar of play."
Of course it is, but based on your previous sentences you don't seem to have ever PVP'd as you don't think siege plays a role in Cyrodiil in anyway. 5 inventory slots is 1000 potions in PVP and I know you thought you had a "gotcha" before when you were talking about 1k of this and 1k of that being exaggerations but here we are again at 1000 extra of something. Hey though, I guess when you bought ESO for the forums access and never played the game that'll happen.
"that I hear is that you're attempting to mask your inadequacy by making excuses and projecting on people that spend money in the crown store."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, that's rich coming from a person that's advocating for crown store sales to compensate for their own gameplay. But what else should be expected from someone that thinks siege is just used for show in Cyrodiil. Have you ever considered buying Fallout 76? I think their monetization is right up your alley. Oh and if you want to screenshot your playtime and PVP rank I'll gladly post mine and embarrass you further.
"I wouldn't play a Pay to Win game, and I think that most people would identify with that sentiment. If you believe this game is Pay to Win, why are you playing?"
I'm going to have to wholey disagree with you on that one, you'd just label it something else to make you feel better like you're doing now. "It's not pay to win, it's just pay for convenience" "Inventory doesn't help you at all. There's no extra items you can use to make the game easier." I guess it can't be pay to win though if you do everything to change the definition which is the problem. Weird that it's not pay to win, it's just under the umbrella of everything pay to win encompasses.
The reason I play is because I started playing years ago wayyy before a lot of the current monetization model became what it is now and before a lot of executives were hired from other MMOs that were under more P2W models. I've put in more then enough time at this point that these changes really don't affect me as much. If you also bothered to read any of my posts I've said multiple times in the past and in this thread. I don't care how you spend your money, you're an adult do what you want. I do care that you're unwilling to call it what it is which is P2W. That doesn't mean I don't understand what they're doing in the long run.
"Now hopefully you're able to grasp that an advantage is ANYTHING that gives you a competitive edge. This also includes inventory spaces. Also when it comes to barefoot races in my example I'm also correct but hey, maybe the complete moron that can't even grasp basic English is going to disprove that. Oh wait no, they don't even know the definitions of the words they're using."
Stop beating me with your five additional inventory slots and your running shoes Crown Store!
"What was unsubstantiated? Should I go copy and paste this definition as well because you heard the word once and don't understand the meaning behind it?"
For what you said to be an accurate reflection of reality, ZOS would have to classify their own Crown Store services as Pay to Win. That logic doesn't follow. As someone else stated in an earlier post, the reason that it is not available in Cyrodil is because of the server strain. It doesn't have anything to do with ZoS conceding that their own services provide some advantage to players.
"Opinion is fact now? Also lets say plenty of peolpe is 50% of Cyrodiil players, that leaves 50% who do siege. That's a large population that I'm sure could use 5 extra slots to their advantage."
Seeing as you're basically illustrating my point for me in this statement, it's obviously a fact. If 50% of the player base in Cyrodil are not using siege, by your own admission that is also a large population. For this +5 inventory to be an advantage, your 50% would have to be at their inventory limit with siege equipment. For this to be true, you would have to be under the assumption that all players participating in siege are at their inventory limit with siege. Since this is obviously not true, there are less than 50% of these players that would be benefiting from + 5 inventory space based on your own metrics. You're probably the best at derailing your own train of thought.
"Of course it is, but based on your previous sentences you don't seem to have ever PVP'd as you don't think siege plays a role in Cyrodiil in anyway. 5 inventory slots is 1000 potions in PVP and I know you thought you had a "gotcha" before when you were talking about 1k of this and 1k of that being exaggerations but here we are again at 1000 extra of something. Hey though, I guess when you bought ESO for the forums access and never played the game that'll happen."
What is this weird attempt at gate-keeping? I must not have played the game because I don't understand your strange concept of what constitutes Pay to Win? What is your obsession with 'gotcha's' all about? This is all just incoherent word vomit.
"HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, that's rich coming from a person that's advocating for crown store sales to compensate for their own gameplay. But what else should be expected from someone that thinks siege is just used for show in Cyrodiil. Have you ever considered buying Fallout 76? I think their monetization is right up your alley. Oh and if you want to screenshot your playtime and PVP rank I'll gladly post mine and embarrass you further."
I'm not sure what you and other's insistence on conflating an argument that is essentially, "5 additional item slots are not Pay to Win" with advocating for Crown Store sales. That's obviously not the argument I'm making, but your insistence on trying to paint me as a shill is evidence enough that you have no interest in having an honest discussion about the topic. At this point, I've already mentioned multiple times that I think the inventory pet was a greedy move, which you've clearly ignored. I'm not too sure how your concept of epeen measuring and gate-keeping coupled with your irrelevant allegories are supposed to embarrass me. You're just embarrassing yourself.
"I'm going to have to wholey disagree with you on that one, you'd just label it something else to make you feel better like you're doing now. "It's not pay to win, it's just pay for convenience" "Inventory doesn't help you at all. There's no extra items you can use to make the game easier." I guess it can't be pay to win though if you do everything to change the definition which is the problem. Weird that it's not pay to win, it's just under the umbrella of everything pay to win encompasses."
*wholly*
I'm not labeling it anything that you haven't already labeled it. Just because you have some ill defined concept of what 'Pay to Win' constitutes, doesn't make it that thing. The majority of this poll don't even agree to your premise. You can pretend that it's that way, but until you demonstrate a real and practical disadvantage for players that don't have the 5 additional inventory slots, it won't be that way.
"The reason I play is because I started playing years ago wayyy before a lot of the current monetization model became what it is now and before a lot of executives were hired from other MMOs that were under more P2W models. I've put in more then enough time at this point that these changes really don't affect me as much. If you also bothered to read any of my posts I've said multiple times in the past and in this thread. I don't care how you spend your money, you're an adult do what you want. I do care that you're unwilling to call it what it is which is P2W. That doesn't mean I don't understand what they're doing in the long run. [/quote]"
OH, you started playing years ago? WHO.CARES. That doesn't make your insight on the topic any more relevant. I'm unwilling to call it what you've decided that it is.Tombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"1 -
Xologamer✭✭✭✭Yes, and I have ESO+no matter if it was 5 oder 1000 extra slot - its an advantage over other players which dont pay or ingame pets
and its defnetly p2w1 -
Reverb✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, and I don't have ESO+NordSwordnBoard wrote: »Convenience War Pigs have the power,
Hand of ZOS has struck the hour
Day of judgement, Bag space calling
On their knees the war pigs crawling, (from 5 items)
Begging mercies for your inventories,
ZOS, laughing, collects your crowns.
I feel like this cleverness needs more attention. Can we show some love for @NordSwordnBoard hereBattle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche2 -
A_Silverius✭✭✭✭✭No, it would have to be a sound argument for it to be compelling. Whether it is impressive or not is completely irrelevant. I don't understand what the point of sharing a warning or an argument if the goal is not to change people's minds or convince people to heed your warning. Might as well be screaming your opinion into the abyss.
That was actually what I was doing tbh, I honestly didn't care if I could convince you or anyone to change their minds because I already know how stubborn the playerbase is. That was why I didn't write something captivating or in other words, impressive enough to be considered "compelling" in yours. I'm starting to think that maybe you're the one that has the poor understanding of what it means.
If it was my intention to be "evoking interest, attention, or admiration in a powerfully irresistible way" then surely what I wrote must be pretty damn impressive for it to be powerfully irresistible wouldn't it? I've been trying to tell you over and over again, its not my aim to impress you or write something so persuasive that compels you to my side of the fence but you still insist on arguing over something so damn trivial.If you've been reading my posts, you would understand that I've already stated that these Crown Store practices are greedy and I've already acknowledged that there are a lot of people who have a negative opinion of the Crown Store. This argument is not about the Crown Store - it's about whether or not 5 additional slots is Pay to Win. Don't conflate the two. It's obvious where the monetization practices are headed and most people don't require other's grand foresight to figure it out.
Except that "grand foresight" happens to be related to the topic since people are discussing the possibility of adding more 5+ inventory slot pets that could even be 10+ or 20+ etc, there is nothing wrong with expanding upon a topic especially when it is related to the discussion.
If you understood then you wouldn't have said "It's pretty impressive how many amazing players come out of the woodwork whose PvP losses are so marginal that they could be attributed to the other teams acquisition of 5 additional inventory slots. It's almost as if buying a non-combat pet has turned the average player into a living god." because its clearly not what people are having a problem with and neither was the recipient of that message.That is conjecture. That's literally all that it is, because you can't actually see that in the Crown Store.
Don't kid yourself, we all know there's going to be more inventory slots turned into mtxs.It's not my fault that terms like "unfair advantage" are being substituted for 'luxury' or 'convenience'. There is a distinction between them and if you refuse to acknowledge the distinction, then you either don't understand the words or you're being deliberately obstinate. Pick the one you would prefer.
In your own words: "This argument is not about the Crown Store vocabulary - it's about whether or not 5 additional slots is Pay to Win. Don't conflate the two." It seems for some strange reason you prefer to pick the former.I love this 'we' speak, as if this is not just you white knighting for somebody else who shares your opinion. Leave the finger wagging to ZoS and stop moralizing to others because someone you agree with got their feelings hurt. They had no interest in having a genial discussion about this topic and were antagonistic from the beginning. Their last post was edited for that reason, as well, but you feel like you can let that slide as long as they agree with you.
You're very presumptuous, based on my experience with people who bait others often get threads locked by the admins and it was my intention to get you to end your unnecessarily uncouth remarks to avoid this.
His first post to you contradicts your accusation, it is free of any form of antagonism.
Yours on the other hand had been very clearly antagonistic with remarks like "If you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the words 'advantage' or 'demonstrable' mean this makes sense." "you may want to consider playing a game without a cash shop." very unnecessary and contributes nothing to the discussion you are so fond of enforcing.All over Tamriel, theres a sudden spike in Bosmers getting caught for their crimes. A sad day indeed... #FightForYourRite Give Bosmers back our stealth!1 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭No, and I have ESO+A_Silverius wrote: »No, it would have to be a sound argument for it to be compelling. Whether it is impressive or not is completely irrelevant. I don't understand what the point of sharing a warning or an argument if the goal is not to change people's minds or convince people to heed your warning. Might as well be screaming your opinion into the abyss.
That was actually what I was doing tbh, I honestly didn't care if I could convince you or anyone to change their minds because I already know how stubborn the playerbase is. That was why I didn't write something captivating or in other words, impressive enough to be considered "compelling" in yours. I'm starting to think that maybe you're the one that has the poor understanding of what it means.
If it was my intention to be "evoking interest, attention, or admiration in a powerfully irresistible way" then surely what I wrote must be pretty damn impressive for it to be powerfully irresistible wouldn't it? I've been trying to tell you over and over again, its not my aim to impress you or write something so persuasive that compels you to my side of the fence but you still insist on arguing over something so damn trivial.If you've been reading my posts, you would understand that I've already stated that these Crown Store practices are greedy and I've already acknowledged that there are a lot of people who have a negative opinion of the Crown Store. This argument is not about the Crown Store - it's about whether or not 5 additional slots is Pay to Win. Don't conflate the two. It's obvious where the monetization practices are headed and most people don't require other's grand foresight to figure it out.
Except that "grand foresight" happens to be related to the topic since people are discussing the possibility of adding more 5+ inventory slot pets that could even be 10+ or 20+ etc, there is nothing wrong with expanding upon a topic especially when it is related to the discussion.
If you understood then you wouldn't have said "It's pretty impressive how many amazing players come out of the woodwork whose PvP losses are so marginal that they could be attributed to the other teams acquisition of 5 additional inventory slots. It's almost as if buying a non-combat pet has turned the average player into a living god." because its clearly not what people are having a problem with and neither was the recipient of that message.That is conjecture. That's literally all that it is, because you can't actually see that in the Crown Store.
Don't kid yourself, we all know there's going to be more inventory slots turned into mtxs.It's not my fault that terms like "unfair advantage" are being substituted for 'luxury' or 'convenience'. There is a distinction between them and if you refuse to acknowledge the distinction, then you either don't understand the words or you're being deliberately obstinate. Pick the one you would prefer.
In your own words: "This argument is not about the Crown Store vocabulary - it's about whether or not 5 additional slots is Pay to Win. Don't conflate the two." It seems for some strange reason you prefer to pick the former.I love this 'we' speak, as if this is not just you white knighting for somebody else who shares your opinion. Leave the finger wagging to ZoS and stop moralizing to others because someone you agree with got their feelings hurt. They had no interest in having a genial discussion about this topic and were antagonistic from the beginning. Their last post was edited for that reason, as well, but you feel like you can let that slide as long as they agree with you.
You're very presumptuous, based on my experience with people who bait others often get threads locked by the admins and it was my intention to get you to end your unnecessarily uncouth remarks to avoid this.
His first post to you contradicts your accusation, it is free of any form of antagonism.
Yours on the other hand had been very clearly antagonistic with remarks like "If you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the words 'advantage' or 'demonstrable' mean this makes sense." "you may want to consider playing a game without a cash shop." very unnecessary and contributes nothing to the discussion you are so fond of enforcing.
"That was actually what I was doing tbh, I honestly didn't care if I could convince you or anyone to change their minds because I already know how stubborn the playerbase is. That was why I didn't write something captivating or in other words, impressive enough to be considered "compelling" in yours. I'm starting to think that maybe you're the one that has the poor understanding of what it means."
Seeing as you just posted the definition with all of it's synonyms, I find your accusation strange considering the conspicuous absence of the word 'impressive'. Neither is 'captivating' related to 'impressive' in any way except in your head.
"If you understood then you wouldn't have said "It's pretty impressive how many amazing players come out of the woodwork whose PvP losses are so marginal that they could be attributed to the other teams acquisition of 5 additional inventory slots. It's almost as if buying a non-combat pet has turned the average player into a living god." because its clearly not what people are having a problem with and neither was the recipient of that message."
That is exactly what some people are saying is the issue and is completely relevant to the discussion you felt the need to interject yourself into. If you weren't aware, the thread is titled "Do you consider the new pet Pay to Win', not "Is there an issue with micro transactions?". It's Pay to Win if it gives a mechanical advantage - that is the consensus. Besides the fact that statement is obviously facetious, it's perfectly relevant to an argument positing that it is a mechanical advantage in PvP.
"In your own words: "This argument is not about the Crown Store vocabulary - it's about whether or not 5 additional slots is Pay to Win. Don't conflate the two." It seems for some strange reason you prefer to pick the former."
It seems for some reason that you keep on conflating the two in a forum thread titled "Do you consider the new pet P2W?" Maybe if you were a little more consistent you'd be able to follow the discussion.
"You're very presumptuous, based on my experience with people who bait others often get threads locked by the admins and it was my intention to get you to end your unnecessarily uncouth remarks to avoid this.
His first post to you contradicts your accusation, it is free of any form of antagonism.
Yours on the other hand had been very clearly antagonistic with remarks like "If you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the words 'advantage' or 'demonstrable' mean this makes sense." "you may want to consider playing a game without a cash shop." very unnecessary and contributes nothing to the discussion you are so fond of enforcing.[/quote]"
As presumptuous as someone who feels the need to moderate and play arbiter in favor of people who share their opinion?Yeah, not quite. Obviously your invocation of the rules haven't brought about the results you were looking for. Perhaps you should just let it go.
Tombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"1 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, and I have ESO+A_Silverius wrote: »A_Silverius wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »A modest list of inventory slots available in store prior to the introduction of the Bristleback War Boar non-combat pet.- Bag Space Upgrade 1,000 Crowns
- Bank Space Upgrade 1,000 Crowns
- Crown Lesson: Riding Capacity (10) 1,000 Crowns
- Storage Chest, Fortified 2,000 Crowns
- Storage Chest, Oaken 2,000 Crowns
- Storage Chest, Secure 2,000 Crowns
- Storage Chest, Sturdy 2,000 Crowns
- Storage Coffer, Oaken 1,000 Crowns
- Storage Coffer, Secure 1,000 Crowns
- Storage Coffer, Sturdy 1000 Crowns
- Additional Character Slot (10) 1,500 Crowns
- ESO +
This does not include the other forms of convenience the store offers like Bankers, Merchants, Vampirism, Lycanthropy, Skilllines, Skill Shards, Race Changes as well as a Class and the Paywalled Race.
But sure, these 5 slots attached to a non-combat pet is the corner ZOS has finally turned towards P2W.
The difference is all of the above could be earned in-game other than additional character slot and eso+. Now we can expect more inventory and bank space to be placed behind a paywall.
and ESO+ is by a longshot the most important one on that list considering it doubles your bank space, doubles your furnishing space AND gives you the infinite craft bag.
You know, you've done it - you've inspired me. I wasn't going to do it, but I'm going to go vote with my wallet and buy the pig. It's such a non-issue it's hilarious watching people writhe over it like it's fundamentally game changing.
Don't let me keep you from making your own decisions man, when ZO$ starts implementing more paywalls until it resembles SWTOR's mtx model you'll understand. At least swtor lets you keep all the expansions even after your subscription ends.
If only that person's decisions didn't adversely impact the game for everyone else as well. Some folks will never understand. They will continue to support an industry racket to the detriment of both themselves and to the rest of the community. In most cases, it's a situation of a frog in a kettle slowly being brought to boil. They're simply oblivious to the larger pattern of what's going on. I don't blame those folks. The lion's share of the blame is squarely on the industry's shoulders.2 -
Tyrobag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, and I have ESO+It depends on how we want to define p2w, but it allows you to pay to gain an advantage that is completely inaccessible otherwise. It feels like they've really been trying to soften us up to feel like p2w features are acceptable, they're constantly pushing the boundaries.
5 inventory may not be huge, but will we still be saying that when there's a pet to increase it by 10? 20? 50? Or increase movement speed by 15%? Or health regeneration by 200? Or maybe a "vanity" pet that tanks for you? This is ZoS' pattern, they said the crown store would only be cosmetics, then it expanded to "convenience items" like potions and mount training, then grind bypass items like event tickets, now they sell skill lines.2 -
A_Silverius✭✭✭✭✭
https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/compellingSeeing as you just posted the definition with all of it's synonyms, I find your accusation strange considering the conspicuous absence of the word 'impressive'. Neither is 'captivating' related to 'impressive' in any way except in your head.
https://www.powerthesaurus.org/compelling/synonyms
https://www.thesaurus.net/compelling
https://www.macmillanthesaurus.com/captivate
https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/impressed
*Threw in some more synonyms because why not.
So you didn't understand then. Go on and quote someone who thinks 5 inventory slots would make you a god.That is exactly what some people are saying is the issue and is completely relevant to the discussion you felt the need to interject yourself into. If you weren't aware, the thread is titled "Do you consider the new pet Pay to Win', not "Is there an issue with micro transactions?". It's Pay to Win if it gives a mechanical advantage - that is the consensus. Besides the fact that statement is obviously facetious, it's perfectly relevant to an argument positing that it is a mechanical advantage in PvP.
I'm not the one who's so keen on arguing over vocabulary, that was you. Being unnecessarily, unequivocally, inconsistent. I've expressed my willingness time and time again to move on from arguing over the meaning of words as it was completely unrelated to the topic. But you kept insisting in steering the discussion back in that direction, you're the one who has difficulty following the discussion.It seems for some reason that you keep on conflating the two in a forum thread titled "Do you consider the new pet P2W?" Maybe if you were a little more consistent you'd be able to follow the discussion.
You're mistaking my disapproval for trolling/baiting as an attempt to guard those whose opinions I agree with. The only results I was looking for was a return to a civil discussion free of unrelated topics (like you arguing over vocabulary) and unnecessarily derisive remarks like "If you come to a race barefoot you are a moron - not a victim of the Crown Store. What an embarrassing allegory." Regardless of what you think I am arbiter or not, surely you can agree to keep things civil and follow the forum rules? It's not much to ask.As presumptuous as someone who feels the need to moderate and play arbiter in favor of people who share their opinion?Yeah, not quite. Obviously your invocation of the rules haven't brought about the results you were looking for. Perhaps you should just let it go.Edited by A_Silverius on November 13, 2019 6:17PMAll over Tamriel, theres a sudden spike in Bosmers getting caught for their crimes. A sad day indeed... #FightForYourRite Give Bosmers back our stealth!0 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭No, and I have ESO+A_Silverius wrote: »
https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/compellingSeeing as you just posted the definition with all of it's synonyms, I find your accusation strange considering the conspicuous absence of the word 'impressive'. Neither is 'captivating' related to 'impressive' in any way except in your head.
https://www.powerthesaurus.org/compelling/synonyms
https://www.thesaurus.net/compelling
So you didn't understand then. Go on and quote someone who thinks 5 inventory slots would make you a god.That is exactly what some people are saying is the issue and is completely relevant to the discussion you felt the need to interject yourself into. If you weren't aware, the thread is titled "Do you consider the new pet Pay to Win', not "Is there an issue with micro transactions?". It's Pay to Win if it gives a mechanical advantage - that is the consensus. Besides the fact that statement is obviously facetious, it's perfectly relevant to an argument positing that it is a mechanical advantage in PvP.
I'm not the one who's so keen on arguing over vocabulary, that was you. Being unnecessarily, unequivocally, inconsistent. I've expressed my willingness time and time again to move on from arguing over the meaning of words as it was completely unrelated to the topic. But you kept insisting in steering the discussion back in that direction, you're the one who has difficulty following the discussion.It seems for some reason that you keep on conflating the two in a forum thread titled "Do you consider the new pet P2W?" Maybe if you were a little more consistent you'd be able to follow the discussion.
You're mistaking my disapproval for trolling/baiting as an attempt to guard those whose opinions I agree with. The only results I was looking for was a return to a civil discussion free of unrelated topics (like you arguing over vocabulary) and unnecessarily derisive remarks like "If you come to a race barefoot you are a moron - not a victim of the Crown Store. What an embarrassing allegory." Regardless of what you think I am arbiter or not, surely you can agree to keep things civil and follow the forum rules? It's not much to ask.As presumptuous as someone who feels the need to moderate and play arbiter in favor of people who share their opinion?Yeah, not quite. Obviously your invocation of the rules haven't brought about the results you were looking for. Perhaps you should just let it go.A_Silverius wrote: »
https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/compellingSeeing as you just posted the definition with all of it's synonyms, I find your accusation strange considering the conspicuous absence of the word 'impressive'. Neither is 'captivating' related to 'impressive' in any way except in your head.
https://www.powerthesaurus.org/compelling/synonyms
https://www.thesaurus.net/compelling
So you didn't understand then. Go on and quote someone who thinks 5 inventory slots would make you a god.That is exactly what some people are saying is the issue and is completely relevant to the discussion you felt the need to interject yourself into. If you weren't aware, the thread is titled "Do you consider the new pet Pay to Win', not "Is there an issue with micro transactions?". It's Pay to Win if it gives a mechanical advantage - that is the consensus. Besides the fact that statement is obviously facetious, it's perfectly relevant to an argument positing that it is a mechanical advantage in PvP.
I'm not the one who's so keen on arguing over vocabulary, that was you. Being unnecessarily, unequivocally, inconsistent. I've expressed my willingness time and time again to move on from arguing over the meaning of words as it was completely unrelated to the topic. But you kept insisting in steering the discussion back in that direction, you're the one who has difficulty following the discussion.It seems for some reason that you keep on conflating the two in a forum thread titled "Do you consider the new pet P2W?" Maybe if you were a little more consistent you'd be able to follow the discussion.
You're mistaking my disapproval for trolling/baiting as an attempt to guard those whose opinions I agree with. The only results I was looking for was a return to a civil discussion free of unrelated topics (like you arguing over vocabulary) and unnecessarily derisive remarks like "If you come to a race barefoot you are a moron - not a victim of the Crown Store. What an embarrassing allegory." Regardless of what you think I am arbiter or not, surely you can agree to keep things civil and follow the forum rules? It's not much to ask.As presumptuous as someone who feels the need to moderate and play arbiter in favor of people who share their opinion?Yeah, not quite. Obviously your invocation of the rules haven't brought about the results you were looking for. Perhaps you should just let it go.
"You're mistaking my disapproval for trolling/baiting as an attempt to guard those whose opinions I agree with. The only results I was looking for was a return to a civil discussion free of unrelated topics (like you arguing over vocabulary) and unnecessarily derisive remarks like "If you come to a race barefoot you are a moron - not a victim of the Crown Store. What an embarrassing allegory." Regardless of what you think I am arbiter or not, surely you can agree to keep things civil and follow the forum rules? It's not much to ask."
Seeing as this person you're defending not only just called me a moron in his last post, but remarked specifically about his intention to try and embarrass me, that is exactly what you are doing. You have no interest in having an honest or civil discussion. If you did, you'd redirect your attention. Spare me your self righteous nonsense.
Tombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"0 -
A_Silverius✭✭✭✭✭Seeing as this person you're defending not only just called me a moron in his last post, but remarked specifically about his intention to try and embarrass me, that is exactly what you are doing. You have no interest in having an honest or civil discussion. If you did, you'd redirect your attention. Spare me your self righteous nonsense.
Which I disapprove as well. It is a shame that once we start insulting another, the natural human reaction would not take it as a compliment but instead the most common reaction would be a defense or an offense to the attack.All over Tamriel, theres a sudden spike in Bosmers getting caught for their crimes. A sad day indeed... #FightForYourRite Give Bosmers back our stealth!0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQUXuQ6Zd9w
