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Is it rude to tell someone "l2p"?
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anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.InvictusApollo wrote: »Different phrasing for the same things. Sorry for assuming that my respondents are smart enough to understand the options provided. Your argument about number of options basically says: "people are so dumb that they will choose "no" even if they think "yes" just because there are multiple options for "no"".
Ha ha ha (thanks for the laugh).
Next time though please do me the favour to not ask for explanations when you're not willing or able to understand them.
Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on October 15, 2019 1:44PM4 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Simply no.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Why would you add a 5th answer just to be contrarian? The reason there isn't a 5th choice in the original poll is because then you get the redundancy of choices 2 & 3 which are the exact same question in the end. You don't need 8 different choices when the answers should be boiled down to "Yes, No, Other."
I added a 5th answer to 1/ follow the original pattern 2/ offer a neutral option.
Yes the answers could be boiled down to yes/no/other or even yes/no BUT that's exactly what the OP did NOT do. He chose to spread them over several options, full and mild (why not), but he did not do it evenly and chose misleading formulations.Rave the Histborn wrote: »It wasn't until you were informed that you don't seem to understand how to read polls that you got mad at the choices..../...It was pointed out to you that your perception of the answer was wrong and it was explained to you (Yes, but only if there wasn't provided any direction on what to exactly learn. Remember this?)
Yup. That's when OP "explained" that his "No, but" actually means yes that he proved, all by himself, that the poll was biased because 3 answers were meant to mean "no" and only one was meant to be "yes", which makes it a wrongly designed poll. Got it ?Rave the Histborn wrote: »Instead of accepting the advice and taking the loss you've attacked the pollster, the poll, all of the answer choices.
Why do you think people aren't wasting their time explaining things. I'm not here to teach you how to do the things your should know only to be told that I'm wrong.
I'm explaining because the OP expressedly asked me to.
And this poll IS wrongly done, that's an objective fact, whether you like it or not. And yes, you are 100% wrong. Sorry. Time for you to LEARN.
1) Other is a neutral option, you didn't' need to add another neutral option.
2) He did do it evenly. You just don't seem to understand how to answer polls. It is either rude or it isn't, elaborating doesn't make it biased. You could also add any answer you want by choosing other. Guess what, only 6% of people did that. That's on you, not the poll or the polster.
3) It isn't a wrongly designed poll just because you don't understand basic English. A poll is meant to gauge peoples opinions not to prove facts. You're only bringing this up now because, again, you put your opinion into something without reading it.
4) Just because you keep saying the poll is wrong doesn't make it wrong. Your opinion also isn't objective fact whether you like it nor not and no, I am not 100% wrong. If I was wrong you'd be able to explain because it's pretty obvious you like hearing yourself talk.
If l2p was really rude it would be a majority consensus and not open for debate. Even your side of "yes, it's like living through the Holocaust" doesn't have majority consensus on it.
Sorry, time for you to L2Read before you reply to things. God imagine trying to tell someone you're correct when you don't even have an elementary schooler's lvl of problem solving.1 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.Rave the Histborn wrote: »If l2p was really rude it would be a majority consensus and not open for debate. Even your side of "yes, it's like living through the Holocaust" doesn't have majority consensus on it.
You just earned 1 Godwin point, Sir.
That doesn't make you any less wrong, though.
3 -
InvictusApollo✭✭✭✭✭
✭No. There is nothing wrong with educating someone about the source of their problems, when they ask for it.
I've already said that I've put more options so that people wouldn't get confused whether they should choose "yes" or "no" when consider it not being rude but only in certain situations. Had they put their votes into "Others" option, then we would have a much less clear data.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Why would you add a 5th answer just to be contrarian? The reason there isn't a 5th choice in the original poll is because then you get the redundancy of choices 2 & 3 which are the exact same question in the end. You don't need 8 different choices when the answers should be boiled down to "Yes, No, Other."
Yes the answers should be boiled down to yes/no/other or even yes/no BUT that's exactly what the OP did NOT do.
You still do not understand. If you read following part of my previous post, maybe you will finally understand that whenever a poll is done, a researcher can ask several questions to the poll results.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »It wasn't until you were informed that you don't seem to understand how to read polls that you got mad at the choices..../...It was pointed out to you that your perception of the answer was wrong and it was explained to you (Yes, but only if there wasn't provided any direction on what to exactly learn. Remember this?)
Yup. That's when OP "explained" that his "No, but" actually means yes that he proved, all by himself, that the poll was biased because 3 answers were meant to mean "no" and only one was meant to be "yes", which makes it a wrongly designed poll. Got it ?
It's not that several answers mean "no". It's that several answers mean "no, in a specific context/situation".InvictusApollo wrote: »"How many people believe that there is a context in which "l2p" is rude?"
then we would take these sets:
"Yes, ofcourse." - it's allways rude
"Yes, but only if there wasn't provided any direction on what to exactly learn." - it's rude when no one provided direction of learning
"No. There is nothing wrong with educating someone about the source of their problems, when they ask for it." - it's rude if the person hasn't asked for being educated as in the "l2p" came as a starter of communication.
On the other hand, if we were to answer a question:
"How many people believe that there is a context in which "l2p" is rude?"
then we would take these sets:
"Yes, ofcourse." - it's allways rude
"Yes, but only if there wasn't provided any direction on what to exactly learn." - it's rude when no one provided direction of learning
"No. There is nothing wrong with educating someone about the source of their problems, when they ask for it." - it's rude if the person hasn't asked for being educated as in the "l2p" came as a starter of communication.
The poll could be boiled down to:
"Is it rude to tell someone "l2p"?
> Yes, allways.
> Yes, except of situation/context #1.
> Yes, except of situation/context #2.
> No, never.
> Other"
I might have used different wording, but that would be the same thing.
Do you understand now?
You've been attacking me and the poll long before I asked you to provide your poll idea.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »I'm explaining because the OP expressedly asked me to.
What @Rave the Histborn meant is that you @anitajoneb17_ESO are an excellent example of a person who is either incapable or unwilling to learn or even accept that you might be wrong.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
And this poll IS wrongly done, that's an objective fact, whether you like it or not. And yes, you are 100% wrong. Sorry. Time for you to LEARN.Rave the Histborn wrote: »Instead of accepting the advice and taking the loss you've attacked the pollster, the poll, all of the answer choices.
Why do you think people aren't wasting their time explaining things. I'm not here to teach you how to do the things your should know only to be told that I'm wrong.
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Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Simply no.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »If l2p was really rude it would be a majority consensus and not open for debate. Even your side of "yes, it's like living through the Holocaust" doesn't have majority consensus on it.
You just earned 1 Godwin point, Sir.
That doesn't make you any less wrong, though.
Lol hey guys you're so wrong I'm not even going to bother answering all the points that make look wrong and like I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Omg did you just compare it to Nazis? Isn't that one of the most universally recognizable events of the 20th century? Godwin said you would use that, he's a super genius with the world's highest IQ. Who else could have thought that people by nature are hyperbolic and will take events like that in order to use them in a lesser context. I am out done, I concede, you are very smart and 100% have the ability to read a poll. None of that is sarcasm.
You've definitely earned that monster light today boomer
*cracks and sips
1 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.It's definitely rude.
People, invariably, say it because they're frustrated, or angry.
There is no need to say it while trying to help someone learn about a mechanic, or whatever, so you can't really justify it like that.1 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.InvictusApollo wrote: »You still do not understand. If you read following part of my previous post, maybe you will finally understand that whenever a poll is done, a researcher can ask several questions to the poll results.
An honest researcher in opinions working with closed polls does not
1/ suggest an answer that means no but starts with "yes" (or vice-versa)
2/ offer more options that mean "no" than options that mean "yes" (or vice-versa).
That should be simple enough to understand. And there's nothing else to understand.
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Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Simply no.[/quote]
What @Rave the Histborn meant is that you @anitajoneb17_ESO are an excellent example of a person who is either incapable or unwilling to learn or even accept that you might be wrong.
[/quote]
@InvictusApollo
That sums it up well.
It's weird that the same people that think L2P is rude are the quickest to attack any and all parts of your character in anyway once you prove them wrong.1 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Simply no.It's definitely rude.
People, invariably, say it because they're frustrated, or angry.
There is no need to say it while trying to help someone learn about a mechanic, or whatever, so you can't really justify it like that.
You can't say it in jest? It's always just rude? Why is it always the worst people trying to control what you can or cannot say.0 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.I've never seen "l2p" used when somebody is actually trying to explain something. That's sure as hell not how I use it. Don't pretty it up now, I'll have to start throwing down "ffs" instead.
I think ffs is better.
It demonstrates that you're just venting, rather than attacking the individual.4 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Simply no.What @Rave the Histborn meant is that you @anitajoneb17_ESO are an excellent example of a person who is either incapable or unwilling to learn or even accept that you might be wrong.
@InvictusApollo
That sums it up well.
It's weird that the same people that think L2P is rude are the quickest to attack any and all parts of your character in anyway once you prove them wrong.
Edited by Rave the Histborn on October 15, 2019 2:25PM1 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.InvictusApollo wrote: »
That's not entirely true, is it?
Assuming we are talking about things that may affect people's ability to play well.
Some people are intelligent, capable, happy and healthy (at that point in their life, at least).
Edited by Tigerseye on October 15, 2019 2:28PM2 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Simply no.InvictusApollo wrote: »
That's not entirely true, is it?
Some people are intelligent, capable, happy and healthy (at that point in their lives, at least).
That's not entirely true is it?
Everyone has problems you're not supposed to be sheltered all the time. This is why you think l2p is rude and not just a one off.1 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.Conversely, we might argue that it is the person who needs to learn to play that is in fact being rude by entering into a group-based environment with no clue about what they’re doing and how their lack of knowledge might negatively have an impact on others in the playspace. We can fairly assume that anyone in an MMO such as this has at least a basic ability to read (how else did they accept the T&C?) therefore the responsibility lies with them to read up a bit about what they’re attempting to do.
One who expects knowledge within random groups is destined for an extremely disappointing life.3 -
Michaelkeir✭✭✭✭✭No. There is nothing wrong with educating someone about the source of their problems, when they ask for it.I try not to tell people to l2p but when you lvl 810 and light attack spamming in vet City of Ash....we've got a problem. More so when I ask you why you are doing it and you don't respond or you get smart....then you get l2p and a quick vote kick.0 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.Darkenarlol wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
L2Post on a forum.
You really, really need it !
use "post reply" button?
looks like i've allready learned that
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
It's not polite for someone else to tell you to go correct and work on those things. It's basic social behaviour and instinctive respect of the Other Person with their differences.
a wonderfull example of double standards?
No, more that if someone says something first (or admits they say it in certain circumstances), it's then considered OK to do it back to them.
That would be the exception in-game, as well, I guess?
If someone tells you to "l2p" then messes up themselves, you are then perfectly at liberty to return the compliment, without being the rude one.
Or, in fact, if they say "l2p" you could then tell them to "l2escapefrommom'sbasement", or whatever else, without being rude, too.
When you are rude first, you better hope you don't meet someone who's better at it.Edited by Tigerseye on October 15, 2019 3:03PM2 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.Rave the Histborn wrote: »InvictusApollo wrote: »
That's not entirely true, is it?
Some people are intelligent, capable, happy and healthy (at that point in their lives, at least).
That's not entirely true is it?
Everyone has problems you're not supposed to be sheltered all the time. This is why you think l2p is rude and not just a one off.
Yes, it is entirely true that some people are (at that specific moment in time) intelligent, capable, happy and healthy, with no problems that (currently) affect their ability to play well.
I'm not suggesting that there are some people who never, ever have any problems, at any time in their life, but there are certainly always some people who have no problems, that are serious enough to significantly affect their ability to play, at that particular point in time.1 -
redlink1979✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.People can teach others without being rude or without depreciating them.
We are all newbies at some point, either in game or IRL, aren't we?"Sweet Mother, sweet Mother, send your child unto me, for the sins of the unworthy must be baptized in blood and fear"- Sons of the Night Mother | VforVendetta | Grownups Gaming EU | English Elders [PS][EU] 2360 CP
- Daggerfall's Mightiest | Eternal Champions | Legacy | Tamriel Melting Pot [PS][NA] 2190 CP
- SweetTrolls | Spring Rose | Daggerfall Royal Legion | Tinnitus Delux [PC][EU] 2345 CP
- Bacon Rats | Silverlight Brotherhood | Canis Root Tea Party | Vincula Doloris [PC][NA] 2090 CP
3 -
vivisectvib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, ofcourse.Unless that person is being a jerk, I'd say so. There are better ways to offer advice on "learning to play" than being a *** about it.3 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.InvictusApollo wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »InvictusApollo wrote: »I have never enjoyed nor even experienced this as I allways strive to excell in everything I do. And whenever anyone told me l2p I allways took it as an occasion to stop for a moment, contemplate and research how I could improve.
You can strive to excell at everything you do but you CANNOT possibly excell at anything and everything you try. You DO have weak points, probably many, like all of us, and things that you cannot improve even when working on them.
It's not polite for someone else to tell you to go correct and work on those things. It's basic social behaviour and instinctive respect of the Other Person with their differences.
If what you say was true, then all the teachers would be automatically "rude people". And for all the other situations you can allways disagree with the need to improve in a specific field. For example if out of the blue someone told me to learn how to do ballet, then I'd just reject their piece of advice and don't even bother.
However if someone told me the same thing after I ruined a ballet show for everyone, then I would humbly accept my inability to master ballet skills in a timely fashion.
Rarely anyone tells you to learn something without reason. Usually that reason is your very poor performance in an activity that includes other people. When your failure negatively affects others it is in my opinion socially acceptable to advise more education. Otherwise the person who has failed either won't have any incentive to learn or might even stay in delusion of being skillfull. Whatever the case is, the lack of call to education will lead to repetition of failure.
Which is worse? Allowing someone to fail miserably over and over or exposing them to a temporary negative emotion that will have a chance of facilitating success for that person?
She's just saying that it's rude and unnecessary to tell someone to l2p.
I've never heard of a professional dance teacher who has told their students to l2b (l2ballet!), or whatever, so I think we're good...Edited by Tigerseye on October 15, 2019 3:10PM3 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »InvictusApollo wrote: »
So it's OK to tell someone in a wheelchair to "get up and walk" ? Just because "everyone has problems, it's life" ?
Some girls at my school were like that.
They thought a girl in a wheelchair was just "making it up" because, apparently, she could walk a few steps (probably in agony). ><2 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.Of course it is. Speech (and writing) patterns are always a choice.
For example, you can respond to someone by saying either 'you don't seem to understand'. or by saying 'you are an idiot'.
Generally it's just a lack of respect of person being shown by the rude person.
4 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.InvictusApollo wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Darkenarlol wrote: »so... you think that it is rude to say "learn to play"
but it is ok to say "learn to post"?
is it a double standards showcase or
you are trying to be intentionally rude?
asking just for fun, i don't care about you anyway
I was trying to be "intentionally rude" to demonstrate that it is rude to say "learn to..." to anyone even if they objectively should learn to, unlike what you've said.
Like you should obviously learn to post because your posts are horribly formatted (it's probably the fault of the device you're using, but still).
What an awesome example of how beneficial "l2p" (in this case "learn to post") can be. One person wasn't aware of their mistakes in formatting and anothernotified them. In result said person probably had some negative emotion arise in their heart but said emotion served as a motivating force to discover what exactly is wrong with their posting. Ultimately said person will learn how to properly post and become a little bit better person, since knowledge increases ones value.
lol.2 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Simply no.Rave the Histborn wrote: »InvictusApollo wrote: »
That's not entirely true, is it?
Some people are intelligent, capable, happy and healthy (at that point in their lives, at least).
That's not entirely true is it?
Everyone has problems you're not supposed to be sheltered all the time. This is why you think l2p is rude and not just a one off.
Yes, it is entirely true that some people are (at that specific moment in time) intelligent, capable, happy and healthy, with no problems that (currently) affect their ability to play well.
I'm not suggesting that there are some people who never, ever have any problems, at any time in their life, but there are certainly always some people who have no problems, that are serious enough to significantly affect their ability to play, at that particular point in time.
Then why bring it up?1 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.Nah lmao. L2p, ggez, noob is just the way games work. Welcome to the internet amirite.
No.Grianasteri wrote: »InvictusApollo wrote: »We often see people call for nerfs out of pure ignorance. They are making some obvious mistakes. Whether it is the lack of experience or knowledge about game mechanics the fact is obvious that had they learned how to play, they wouldn't have the issues that made them call for a nerf.
In all those threads we see other people saying: "l2p", which stands to: "learn to play". Some people offer education in the topic that is being discussed. While others simply notify the nerf caller about his/her need to increase his/her skill or widen game knowledge. The intention here is good: educate or notify about the importance of education, in order to help the nerf caller overcome his/her issues and have more fun playing the game. However some people consider this condescending or even insulting.
What is your opinion?
of course its rude, its basically just an insult, without any context.
Instead, offer constructive feedback. Try to highlight what is being done wrong, in your opinion, and how this can be improved, in your opinion.
Sadly it often makes little difference and you will still get a torrent of abuse just for trying to help.
Example... Vet dungeon, tank not maintaining aggro, boss cutting lose and 1 shotting group, wipes.
Constructive feedback: Hey buddy I noticed you are losing aggro on the boss, so the group are taking boss hits, if possible please try to keep your taunt up more regularly. Cheers.
Reply: F*&~# YOU!!!! You are not healing that is why group is going down!
Constructive feedback: I cannot heal the group through 1 shot mechs that deal tens of thousands of damage in one go, the hits were talking about are 50k - 100k+ etc. Usually only a tank blocking can survive these consistently.
Reply: F%$£~ YOU! YOU f&*"$ing "&*$, %^&*£$ "£"(&*£(*%&"&£^%%$~@ NOOB f"%*@ }~&"!
*Sigh*
This is partly because people have been sensitised by all the people saying "l2p" and worse.
As soon as any advice is offered, they feel like it must be another attack.2 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.InvictusApollo wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »InvictusApollo wrote: »What an awesome example of how beneficial "l2p" (in this case "learn to post") can be. One person wasn't aware of their mistakes in formatting and anothernotified them. In result said person probably had some negative emotion arise in their heart but said emotion served as a motivating force to discover what exactly is wrong with their posting. Ultimately said person will learn how to properly post and become a little bit better person, since knowledge increases ones value.
That one would be for @Darkenarlol to answer, but I'm quite ready to bet that he/she currently is feeling more negatively about being told "L2..." , even by some stranger on the internet, and even for demonstration purposes, than he/she's feeling positively for having realized that his/her posts aren't properly formatted.
Pain is the source of the best motivation. Without it there would be no progress or even life.
Well I am going to call bollocks on that.
Whipping people doesn't make them learn faster. It just makes you a sadistic bully.
"Sadistic bully?" Jesus, that's a bit OTT.
Taking a beating in this context either pushes you to get stronger or pushes you in to finding safety amongst numbers, just like animals.
People who equate anything in ESO as "sadistic bully(ing)" probably find safety amongst numbers.
Become a Great White, not a Krill.
Nah, I'll carry on being a shark-killing dolphin, thanks.2 -
OneForSorrow✭✭✭✭Yes, but only if there wasn't provided any direction on what to exactly learn.It's a weird question.
Saying "l2p" is a pretty rude response, yes.
Explaining to someone how to do something and recommending they get more experience is not.PC NA. Various alts, trying to find a main, I have no idea what I'm doing.0 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.TheShadowScout wrote: »
I don't actually find that funny.
There are some, truly sick, individuals who think like that in real life.
...and I don't just mean people in psychiatric hospitals.
I mean people with power.
3 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.it is rude when you take l2p tip as rude
btw at all why that many player at all not only dont but even dont want to l2p cleary, even when others point where is their problem and they rather still call for nerfs etc and at sam time blame everyone more exp from frem for calling l2p to them
most of these noobs, newbies are rude
Fixed. L2TIt's rude when you take l2p tip as rude.
BTW, that many players not only don't want to l2p clearly. Even when others point where their problem is. Although, they would rather call for nerfs, etc. at same time, blame everyone for telling them to l2p.
Most of these noobs are newbies, who are rude.
Learn to Type.
OK, I really don't like his sentence structure, so I'm going to give it a go, too:
"When you wrongly perceive a l2p tip as rude, that is in fact rude of you.
BTW, why is it that almost all players not only don't learn to play, but clearly don't even even want to learn to play, at all?
Even when others point out what their problem is, they would still rather call for nerfs etc. and at the same time they blame anyone, who is more experienced than them, for telling them to "l2p".
Most of these people are noobs.
Newbies are rude."
Still not 100% happy with it, especially as the first sentence is utter nonsense and the rest of it isn't much better, but still.
Had to be done.
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Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, ofcourse.Rave the Histborn wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »InvictusApollo wrote: »
That's not entirely true, is it?
Some people are intelligent, capable, happy and healthy (at that point in their lives, at least).
That's not entirely true is it?
Everyone has problems you're not supposed to be sheltered all the time. This is why you think l2p is rude and not just a one off.
Yes, it is entirely true that some people are (at that specific moment in time) intelligent, capable, happy and healthy, with no problems that (currently) affect their ability to play well.
I'm not suggesting that there are some people who never, ever have any problems, at any time in their life, but there are certainly always some people who have no problems, that are serious enough to significantly affect their ability to play, at that particular point in time.
Then why bring it up?
l2comprehend?2
This discussion has been closed.