Cyrodiil: An End to Nightcapping

Ufretin

bigelle.x3_ESO wrote: »

DC caps score during the day. Ep caps score during the night. Tied score. ???????

Not quite. During peak hours keeps usually flip back and forth frequently, whereas the alliance that paints the map at 4 a.m. often holds most of those objectives until the next afternoon.

Pelican

This guy isn't wrong when he says all off-prime players are nightcapping because Australia doesn't exist.

idk

UrQuan wrote: »

idk wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

@PizzaCat82

@Aurielle

No, the capped daily score would be stagnated every 6 hours during the day. What this means is that no one timezone can gain an unfair advantage over another timezone's progress. That timezone, if they reach their cap, can still earn AP and help pave the way for future point gain when the next 6 hour cycle starts. My post wasn't clear about this because I didn't think I needed to point that out. Honestly the fact that the score system needs to be changed at all was what I was trying to get across to folks because the way it is right now is completely skewed and making guilds drop Cyrodiil altogether since their effort is being nullified without a chance to defend their lead.

I just looked over the OP again and this comment seems to be intentionally misleading as the OP makes it the cap is daily and makes no mention of it being spread out into 6 time periods.

I have provided a full quote of the OP as it stands at this moment for reference. I might have read it wrong but I do not think I missed this point.

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Faction Lock was a great first step towards improving the competitive spirit in Cyrodiil, but one more plague exists and it needs to be dealt with if there's to be an actual competition in Cyrodiil. For those who don't know, the act of nightcapping is storming a map during off-hours and gaining many points completely unopposed. For many players, this behavior is met with negativity because it leads to a skewed score increase that is unrepresentative of the contributions and hard work of others in the campaign. The solution to handling this problem is rather simple: place daily faction score caps on each faction's progress for 1st/2nd/3rd place. To be absolutely clear, these would be caps on daily FACTION SCORE gain, NOT player AP.

By implementing a daily cap on the amount of points a faction can earn, factions that perform hard work to overcome resistance during their play hours will not be undermined by players who are online during hours where the enemy is not present. Any player during any time of the day can make progress for their faction, but that progress will be capped each day, regardless of whether they capture 10 or 60 keeps during the night. This means that a faction that earns their 1st place lead and can only be beaten by a faction that rallies together and denies that 1st place faction progress on the battlefield. Yes, this change will lead to a player surge in activity at the start of a campaign, but a 1st place lead is only as good as the effort put forth to maintain it. With both faction lock and daily faction score caps, Cyrodiil's score system will promote healthy competition, regardless of a player's timezone.

EDIT: I'm aware of the fact that players in other timezones are not all maliciously trying to gain an advantage - I know it's just the time you happen to be playing the game. For you, I'm sure NA "primetime" feels like nightcapping, so this change helps everyone out. I think the negative connotation derives from a history of players being shortchanged by a score system that doesn't take into account timezone disparity. If anything, this is the biggest reason why this change needs to happen.

I see that "adding further details to an idea that was previously only briefly described" is now considered being "intentionally misleading". OK, then.

@UrQuan

If you look at the spoiler I clearly included the quote of the OP as it was when that statement was made. I clearly stated that I looked over the OP when I saw the comment in question.

So yes, When it was made it was clearly and intentionally misleading as that information was not included in the OP and the quoted comment made was as though the person has misread the OP, which is not the case

So my comments were very accurate and included proof.

Nope, you're being intentionally dishonest.

The post of his that you quoted was clearly adding additional explanation and context to what he meant in the OP (which he's edited several times to clarify what he meant). He even explicitly mentioned that his original post wasn't clear about how he intended that it would work, which obviously means that the post you're quoting was his attempt to add clarifying detail. You're dishonestly characterizing him adding additional details about how he would implement his idea as him being "intentionally misleading".

Intentionally dishonest when I stated something that was 100% factual and accurate.

There is nothing in the post I quoted that in any manner indicated what you are trying to suggest. You are the one intentionally misleading here with false information.

Here is a link to the post in questionHere is a link to the post in questionHere is a link to the post in question.

Anyone can read that post and see that I do specifically reference the OP as it is and even include a quote of the OP in it's entirety as it was at that time. There is nothing in what I quoted where the OP is suggesting they are adding to their idea and it clearly appears to OP is speaking as though they are saying their idea already includes this new information, when it does not.

It is clearly a false to accuse me of being intentionally dishonest and clearly this guy cannot come up with anything from that post to back up this erroneous accusation towards me.

Odovacar

Lol, it sucks when you come back to a mess but hey isn't Cyrodiil one anyway?

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

After removing a handful of posts for baiting, we must remind everyone that all posts should be kept civil, constructive, and within the guidelines of the rules we have in place. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to view them here.

Thank you for your understanding.
Greg-

Jayman1000

In war and love all is fair. When the vikings started raiding and invading english towns they learned to attack when the christians where attending their sunday prayers in church (or so the tv-show would have me believe). If you are unsatisfied there is no stopping you from reporting for duty for nightwatch. Get to it soldier!

Jayman1000

And might I add that the USA is not the only country in the world sporting eso players. People playing from Europe or Australia or Japan are not "nightcapping" when they are playing during the day it's not night for them.

KappaKid83

Jayman1000 wrote: »

And might I add that the USA is not the only country in the world sporting eso players. People playing from Europe or Australia or Japan are not "nightcapping" when they are playing during the day it's not night for them.

To be fair here most EU players play on EU servers so you can limit those people but yes, Asian and Oceanic zone players definitely play NA. Most Aussie players play AD as well it seems, not sure why that is(maybe historically older Aussie guilds were AD oriented?). So night capping to us is primetime to them. I for one do not care if you "night cap" as I am there for my AP and for some end of campaign rewards, thats it, I don't really care about the small amount of gold and 1 extra piece of jewelry enough to overly care.

idk

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

And might I add that the USA is not the only country in the world sporting eso players. People playing from Europe or Australia or Japan are not "nightcapping" when they are playing during the day it's not night for them.

To be fair here most EU players play on EU servers so you can limit those people but yes, Asian and Oceanic zone players definitely play NA. Most Aussie players play AD as well it seems, not sure why that is(maybe historically older Aussie guilds were AD oriented?). So night capping to us is primetime to them. I for one do not care if you "night cap" as I am there for my AP and for some end of campaign rewards, thats it, I don't really care about the small amount of gold and 1 extra piece of jewelry enough to overly care.

Yes, the NA server is setup to serve everything from Japan to AUS/NZ. We know this is intentional because Zos specifically chose the NA server to host Japanese players when the launched in that nation in 2016.

Zos is not going to take steps to disenfranchise these areas of the world.

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25713 <-- Link to Zos' announcement for Japan.

Yirmeyahu

Is the OP's proposed solution "The Answer"?
I don't know. Personally, I wouldn't mind trying it though.
Because if there is one thing I know for absolute certain it is that
the 30 day CP campaign (Kaalgrontiid) should never, under any circumstances
look like this (for any faction)...

zaria

Yirmeyahu wrote: »

Is the OP's proposed solution "The Answer"?
I don't know. Personally, I wouldn't mind trying it though.
Because if there is one thing I know for absolute certain it is that
the 30 day CP campaign (Kaalgrontiid) should never, under any circumstances
look like this (for any faction)...

Stuff like that happens with low population as we see it on extra servers during event.
Even the main campaign get pretty low in population during the dead of night.

So either an AD has a bit more players on get more of the map and it snowball or some guild group up and capture it.
However the map is now an PvE map so how can you get AP here now? Town dailies
Their only hope is that another faction guild start fighting, pugs would not even bother here.

Jayman1000

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

And might I add that the USA is not the only country in the world sporting eso players. People playing from Europe or Australia or Japan are not "nightcapping" when they are playing during the day it's not night for them.

To be fair here most EU players play on EU servers so you can limit those people but yes, Asian and Oceanic zone players definitely play NA. Most Aussie players play AD as well it seems, not sure why that is(maybe historically older Aussie guilds were AD oriented?). So night capping to us is primetime to them. I for one do not care if you "night cap" as I am there for my AP and for some end of campaign rewards, thats it, I don't really care about the small amount of gold and 1 extra piece of jewelry enough to overly care.

Im playing from EU on NA because I like the NA guilds and players more and also less performance problems. Im willing to live with the higher latency. When I go pvp I dont consider what time it is for US folks. I dont think the proposed 6 hour cap on alliance score is a good idea, it's going to feel like your alliance is missing out on points, which essentially it is. I also fail to see why it would even change anything, the same thing would still happen, why would this stop groups from taking over the map out of NA prime time?

JumpmanLane

Aurielle wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

People who play primetime PCNA set their alarms to get up and play is n the middle of the night when the campaign is empty. AD does do this. Period. So forget all that it’s Aussies or Oceanic players.

AD guilds pvdoor trade emp etc.

That’s some next-level paranoia on display there. Is it not more likely, perhaps, that you’ve got some North American players on PC NA who are night owls? Shift workers who usually sleep during the day anyway for work? Players who would otherwise be in bed but are suffering from insomnia and trying to tire themselves out with a bit of gaming? Why is “AD SETS ALARMS TO PLAY IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT” your go-to assumption? Do you have proof?

Also, I find it funny that you guys never complain about “day capping” during the work week. There are retirees, stay at home moms/dads, people on vacation, shift workers on their days off, people who are unemployed, kids on summer vacation, etc. who play during the middle of the day when most of the NA playerbase is at work. Pop numbers during the day are lower than NA prime time numbers, but there’s almost always good action to be found all over the map.

I’m not telling you what I THINK. I’m telling you what I KNOW. An AD friend of mine told me that people in AD set their alarms to get up and play in the middle of the night to take over the map. Trade emp etc. I didn’t ask. She just told me.

I fight these same folks in primetime Ni, Fantasia, Avante Guarde etc when I’m off Monday’s and Tuesday’s. Rest of the time I play in the middle of the night. You get to know who is who in Cyro. I used to think some of the nightcappers were no lifers, always on etc. Before that I assumed like everyone else nightcappers were Aussies or Oceanic players. Nightcappers aren’t.

My AD friend ran with Fantasia, runs with Ni now. She tells me stuff about AD, how the Ball Zergs work. Take emp for example. They most certainly nightcap to get emp. They most certainly trade it, take turns or whatever.

Last campaign it was her turn. She messaged me as much and asked me not to login and kill her because it was her turn and she wanted to get it. It’s not like first Bobby, then Bobby steps down, then it’s Judy.

Basically you have to go hat in hand to some fool and tell them you want to emp and they’ll agree to push for you if you have the lead. You don’t have to step down but you have to agree to slow down after you loose it. Apparently there was a little stink in AD when some Squishy/tank Necro emp decided not to slow down.

All this crap makes the idea of playing the map and caring about the campaign impossible. Faction lock is stupid too because it was designed to end campaign shenanigans.

Nightcapping is real. It’s not just Aussies, or a bunch of people with JP in their names, or night owls. It’s the same fools you kill in primetime playing in the middle of the night. I don’t have a solution to the problem but there is no denying there IS a problem.

Girl_Number8

idk wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

We’ve had this thread before. “Night capping” does not exist in a game that is open to players across the world. Always remember, everything does not revolve around North America and Western Europe .

Very good point. Clearly night capping cannot exist in a game designed and intended to be played 24 hours a day by players across the world.

Again, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Zos purposely provide support on the NA server to Japan when they "expanded" the game to server that nation?

To demonstrate how misconceived this notion is, I am pretty sure it is night time in Japan and daytime in for the grand ole USA. See how that works?

You choose to ignore every one of my posts outlining the very reason for why the change needs to happen. See, I know that the majority of folks overseas are not maliciously trying to gain an advantage by playing on an empty map, yet you seem to paint this need for changing the score system as an attack. It's about correcting an issue with scoreboards and the population disparity tied to them - I mentioned that several times in this thread. Ignoring facts doesn't make you right.

Please do not falsely accuse me of ignoring something because I disagree based on how the idea is intended to minimize the value of some players.

If your idea is to have a cap set that would be reached before or near the end of prime time where you live then it is about segregation. It is about creating inequality and telling people who play at different times because of where they live or the hours they work that their money or playtime efforts are to have a reduced value. You have even inferred these people of exploiting because their playtime differs from yours.

That is specifically what the idea in the OP is presenting.

The OP should just play at night problem solved. No reason to ask Zos to change the game to fit just their needs. Very Selfish idea.

Girl_Number8

Vercingetorix wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

We’ve had this thread before. “Night capping” does not exist in a game that is open to players across the world. Always remember, everything does not revolve around North America and Western Europe .

Very good point. Clearly night capping cannot exist in a game designed and intended to be played 24 hours a day by players across the world.

Again, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Zos purposely provide support on the NA server to Japan when they "expanded" the game to server that nation?

To demonstrate how misconceived this notion is, I am pretty sure it is night time in Japan and daytime in for the grand ole USA. See how that works?

You choose to ignore every one of my posts outlining the very reason for why the change needs to happen. See, I know that the majority of folks overseas are not maliciously trying to gain an advantage by playing on an empty map, yet you seem to paint this need for changing the score system as an attack. It's about correcting an issue with scoreboards and the population disparity tied to them - I mentioned that several times in this thread. Ignoring facts doesn't make you right.

Please do not falsely accuse me of ignoring something because I disagree based on how the idea is intended to minimize the value of some players.

If your idea is to have a cap set that would be reached before or near the end of prime time where you live then it is about segregation. It is about creating inequality and telling people who play at different times because of where they live or the hours they work that their money or playtime efforts are to have a reduced value. You have even inferred these people of exploiting because their playtime differs from yours.

That is specifically what the idea in the OP is presenting.

How is what we have right now any better? Right now, people from other timezones are demonized by others just for simply playing the game when they are awake. The scoring system needs to work for everyone. You are starting to sound like one of the bad apples that are actually trying to exploit the system, making the rest of the overseas folks here look bad. That's poor taste, dude. This change would end the pointless animosity between timezones and you're against it because you personally profit off of it...

What about red and blue working together, yellow and blue working together, red and yellow working together??

What you're describing is not an exploit in the least. Just people playing.

vamp_emily

Heady wrote: »

The OP should just play at night problem solved. No reason to ask Zos to change the game to fit just their needs. Very Selfish idea.

I don't agree with the OP's solution but I will say that there is an issue with capping keeps while nobody is playing. You can call it whatever you like, daycapping , nightcapping or whatever. It is an issue.

OP suggestion is kind of like you suggesting a New Trader System. I don't think neither one of you were being selfish.

Girl_Number8

vamp_emily wrote: »

Heady wrote: »

The OP should just play at night problem solved. No reason to ask Zos to change the game to fit just their needs. Very Selfish idea.

I don't agree with the OP's solution but I will say that there is an issue with capping keeps while nobody is playing. You can call it whatever you like, daycapping , nightcapping or whatever. It is an issue.

OP suggestion is kind of like you suggesting a New Trader System. I don't think neither one of you were being selfish.

But people are playing. They're not exploiting, just playing. It's a game for people to play not to be catered around one player. In that they are selfish.

RedTalon

Faction Lock is why nightcapping is back in full swing. Some factions have decent pops all time around, and now tsome can't switch to alts to balance things out during low pop times

vamp_emily

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

But people are playing. They're not exploiting, just playing. It's a game for people to play not to be catered around one player. In that they are selfish.

Some people are silent on the issue and don't feel the need to come and post because you get the same counter reply all the time "blah blah blah.. people have the right to play whenever they want .. blah blah blah".

However, I will say esports is becoming very popular. It really drains the spirit of PvP when your alliance tries really hard to win but don't have a chance because of off hour population gaps.

I've always thought the solution was create 1 competitive campaign with population balanced at all hours. I think that would be neat.

Just incase some people are confused on what "esports" is, this is the google definition.

Esports is a form of competition using video games. Most commonly, esports takes the form of organized, multiplayer video game competitions, particularly between professional players, individually or as teams

AlanTheDragonLord

It's not a design flaw that people outside of the US are playing a game that's designed to be available for the entire world, and I'm amazed so many people here think that it is. And accordingly, people outside the US are not 'exploiting' the game simply by playing it in their own part of the world - and I'm amazed so many people here think they are.

TequilaFire

RedTalon wrote: »

Faction Lock is why nightcapping is back in full swing. Some factions have decent pops all time around, and now tsome can't switch to alts to balance things out during low pop times

The capping was the same when there were no locks, it was even worse in the morning on PS4 NA.

Aurielle

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

People who play primetime PCNA set their alarms to get up and play is n the middle of the night when the campaign is empty. AD does do this. Period. So forget all that it’s Aussies or Oceanic players.

AD guilds pvdoor trade emp etc.

That’s some next-level paranoia on display there. Is it not more likely, perhaps, that you’ve got some North American players on PC NA who are night owls? Shift workers who usually sleep during the day anyway for work? Players who would otherwise be in bed but are suffering from insomnia and trying to tire themselves out with a bit of gaming? Why is “AD SETS ALARMS TO PLAY IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT” your go-to assumption? Do you have proof?

Also, I find it funny that you guys never complain about “day capping” during the work week. There are retirees, stay at home moms/dads, people on vacation, shift workers on their days off, people who are unemployed, kids on summer vacation, etc. who play during the middle of the day when most of the NA playerbase is at work. Pop numbers during the day are lower than NA prime time numbers, but there’s almost always good action to be found all over the map.

I’m not telling you what I THINK. I’m telling you what I KNOW. An AD friend of mine told me that people in AD set their alarms to get up and play in the middle of the night to take over the map. Trade emp etc. I didn’t ask. She just told me.

I fight these same folks in primetime Ni, Fantasia, Avante Guarde etc when I’m off Monday’s and Tuesday’s. Rest of the time I play in the middle of the night. You get to know who is who in Cyro. I used to think some of the nightcappers were no lifers, always on etc. Before that I assumed like everyone else nightcappers were Aussies or Oceanic players. Nightcappers aren’t.

My AD friend ran with Fantasia, runs with Ni now. She tells me stuff about AD, how the Ball Zergs work. Take emp for example. They most certainly nightcap to get emp. They most certainly trade it, take turns or whatever.

Last campaign it was her turn. She messaged me as much and asked me not to login and kill her because it was her turn and she wanted to get it. It’s not like first Bobby, then Bobby steps down, then it’s Judy.

Basically you have to go hat in hand to some fool and tell them you want to emp and they’ll agree to push for you if you have the lead. You don’t have to step down but you have to agree to slow down after you loose it. Apparently there was a little stink in AD when some Squishy/tank Necro emp decided not to slow down.

All this crap makes the idea of playing the map and caring about the campaign impossible. Faction lock is stupid too because it was designed to end campaign shenanigans.

Nightcapping is real. It’s not just Aussies, or a bunch of people with JP in their names, or night owls. It’s the same fools you kill in primetime playing in the middle of the night. I don’t have a solution to the problem but there is no denying there IS a problem.

“My friend told me so” is not proof.

However, let’s entertain for a moment the idea that certain AD guilds on your server are, in fact, setting alarms to nightcap on a dead map without opposition. What’s stopping members of your alliance from setting alarms of their own to thwart their efforts? Do you really mean to tell me that AD has the monopoly on players who are willing to do whatever it takes to crown an emp or advance their alliance’s score?

Demra

Trying to understand the proposition, correct me if i got it wrong.

So let's say AD captured the whole map and suppose to get 100 points (the cap) for that. So they will receive those points only during a 6 hour mark? Alright, and if during 5 hour mark, 1/3 of their keeps are captured back now at 6:00 they will only receive 70points and the other 30 will be devided accordingly between other factions depending on what they've got? So this way you're always incentives to fight for your allience regardless of time of day but more so right before each 6 hour mark? And this suppose to prevent from one faction getting way a head with a score that would demoralize other factions and subdued the battles? Basically reinforcing the notion 'you might've won the battle but not the war'.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

NA servers, just sayin'. If you're out there capturing every resource in Cyrodiil while it is night time in NA, you're night capping...

Nope.

You are exploiting a weakness in your opponent's defence strategy - perfectly legitimate battlefield tactic.

Warfare is a 24/7 game, if one side is not up to that task the other side is foolish not to take advantage of that weakness.

All The Best

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

therift wrote: »

Obligatory reminder that Earth has 24 time zones, which means Aussies do not 'night cap'.


Not opposed to your idea, though. It has merit.

Aussies need their own server or hell an Asia Oceania server would be a huge help for their lag. As it stand Aussies player are Nightcappers the planet has 24 time zones NA does not.

TequilaFire

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Obligatory reminder that Earth has 24 time zones, which means Aussies do not 'night cap'.


Not opposed to your idea, though. It has merit.

Aussies need their own server or hell an Asia Oceania server would be a huge help for their lag. As it stand Aussies player are Nightcappers the planet has 24 time zones NA does not.

But NA players are the night cappers when Aussies sleep. lmao
Give it up.

idk

.

vamp_emily wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

But people are playing. They're not exploiting, just playing. It's a game for people to play not to be catered around one player. In that they are selfish.

Some people are silent on the issue and don't feel the need to come and post because you get the same counter reply all the time "blah blah blah.. people have the right to play whenever they want .. blah blah blah".

However, I will say esports is becoming very popular. It really drains the spirit of PvP when your alliance tries really hard to win but don't have a chance because of off hour population gaps.

I've always thought the solution was create 1 competitive campaign with population balanced at all hours. I think that would be neat.

Just incase some people are confused on what "esports" is, this is the google definition.

Esports is a form of competition using video games. Most commonly, esports takes the form of organized, multiplayer video game competitions, particularly between professional players, individually or as teams

They do have the right. It is very clear they have the right and Zos intended it to be so. You can disregard it as blah, blah, blah all you want but you have provided nothing valid to support your position that your playtime should be valued more than other which is exactly what you are trying to say.

Further, esorts is rather irrelevant to this discussion. Cyrodiil was not designed nor intended to be competitive and balanced. If you want something more akin to esports then you should be running BGs as that is the closest this game gets to it. This even has nothing to do with players being able to play 24 hours a day either. It should be obvious.

Aurielle

TequilaFire wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Obligatory reminder that Earth has 24 time zones, which means Aussies do not 'night cap'.


Not opposed to your idea, though. It has merit.

Aussies need their own server or hell an Asia Oceania server would be a huge help for their lag. As it stand Aussies player are Nightcappers the planet has 24 time zones NA does not.

But NA players are the night cappers when Aussies sleep. lmao
Give it up.

This. Also, North America is HUGE, and has nine distinct time zones between the US and Canada. Know what 8pm in Alaska is to me, here in Atlantic Canada? 1am. If someone plays from 8pm to 11pm in Alaska, they’re playing from 1am to 4am my time. Can I accuse them of nightcapping? Can I tell them, obnoxiously, that it’s a NORTH AMERICAN server?

SirAndy

Ah man, ZOS removed the post with the screenshot that showed an opposing faction having full bars during their night as proof that *nobody* is playing when they're asleep.
Why ZOS, WHY?

That was the prefect image to showcase the ridiculousness of this whole "it's not fair that other people can play while i'm asleep" nonsense ...

MasterSpatula

Mostly no. The faction that can field players deserves the rewards for doing so. It is not their fault the opposing faction cannot do so, and they shouldn't be punished for it.

But, on the other hand, completely dominating a board is a bit of a self-fulfilling thing. When there's a tiny number of your faction on and a huge number of another faction and anything you try gets met with a gigantic surge of enemy numbers keeping you from accomplishing anything, there's zero fun to be had there. I could certainly see some kind of diminishing returns for holding a high-enough percentage of the map for a long enough time. Not for getting to that point, but maybe, maybe for staying there without opposition. But even that's iffy.

EDIT: Also, having read the post that mentions certain guilds by name (let's see how long that one lasts), I have no difficulty believing people in the named guild would do what is mentioned. It's sleazy as hell (again, easy to believe), but I'm not convinced any solutions wouldn't be worse than the problem.