Cyrodiil: An End to Nightcapping

Aurielle

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Time zones aside, you know that your daily “scoring cap” would apply to the trailing factions as well, right? Could you imagine how frustrating it would be to the faction in third place if they had a span of days in which they were really well-organized, got their butts into gear, and pushed hard to make it to first...only to be hit with a scoring cap? Sorry guys, you’re doing too well, no more score gains for you!

Again, in my post I mention this - it would fall to the trailing factions to hinder the leading faction's progress to take the lead. It's no different for anyone else. If you don't fight for the lead, why should be handed it on an uncontested battlefield? This change puts an end to the needless animosity between other timezones just for playing at different hour of the day than another timezone. This change needs to happen.

So what you’re essentially saying is that only the leading faction should be points-capped, and shouldn’t be able to pad their lead to ensure victory? Kinda how like in kids’ soccer matches, goals stop counting after a certain point, to keep the losing team’s feelings from being hurt? Everyone gets to feel like a winner in Cyrodiil, thumbs up!

Anyway, I always find it funny how the guys who pretend that “night capping” is a thing neglect to acknowledge the fact that Aussies play on all alliances, not just one. Pockets of population imbalance outside of various countries’ prime times will always occur throughout the day and night, irrespective of time zone. The way to “solve” this problem is to implement balanced population caps, not to negate the legitimate efforts of people living in time zones other than your own (what you call “exploiting”). Of course, if people can’t log onto AD or DC because, say, EP’s dead that morning/evening for whatever reason, you’ll have even more people leaving the game, so...

Vercingetorix

Aznarb wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

Love the idea, so no time-zone is more impacted than another one.


Edit : And people who speak about aussie and other time-zone, clearly don't have read the OP post.

For those who don't know, the act of nightcapping is storming a map during off-hours and gaining many points completely unopposed. If it sounds like an exploit to you, that's because it is.

Oh I read it.

Just because they are unopposed because that's their time to get on the game, doesnt mean they are exploiting.

Where the hell is the rapport with my com' ?
I speak about the IDEA the OP share.
So how the hell do you come at this ?

READ THE COM BEFORE ANSWER [snip].

OP idea :

The solution to handling this problem is rather simple: place daily faction score caps on each faction's progress for 1st/2nd/3rd place. To be absolutely clear, these would be caps on daily FACTION SCORE gain, NOT player AP

I already spoke to this person about it. I admit I should have chosen my words better when I initially posted the thread, but I since corrected it to make my intentions more clear. If anything this thread shows just how much animosity has grown from the broken scoring system screwing over players' hard work and why it so desperately needs to be changed to work equally for everyone.

PizzaCat82

Vercingetorix wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Is faction score a new thing? Is it like # of keeps, resources, towns?

No, it's the score you see next to your faction that lists how many keeps, scrolls, resources, etc. your faction has gained recently. It's separate from the individual player rankings on the leaderboard. The faction with the highest score at the end of the campaign wins.

Wouldn't that mean who ever took keeps at night gained no score, and who ever re-takes them in the morning now has free amount of faction score to stock up on each day?

Kagetenchu

Instead of changing scoring you change how the population cap works, so that no alliance can be up by more than 1 bar than the lowest pop alliance. Having arbitrary score caps will just kill pvp even more as who decides what is the max score for the day

Vercingetorix

@PizzaCat82

@Aurielle

No, the capped daily score would be stagnated every 6 hours during the day. What this means is that no one timezone can gain an unfair advantage over another timezone's progress. That timezone, if they reach their cap, can still earn AP and help pave the way for future point gain when the next 6 hour cycle starts. My post wasn't clear about this because I didn't think I needed to point that out. Honestly the fact that the score system needs to be changed at all was what I was trying to get across to folks because the way it is right now is completely skewed and making guilds drop Cyrodiil altogether since their effort is being nullified without a chance to defend their lead.

idk

Vercingetorix wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

We’ve had this thread before. “Night capping” does not exist in a game that is open to players across the world. Always remember, everything does not revolve around North America and Western Europe .

Very good point. Clearly night capping cannot exist in a game designed and intended to be played 24 hours a day by players across the world.

Again, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Zos purposely provide support on the NA server to Japan when they "expanded" the game to server that nation?

To demonstrate how misconceived this notion is, I am pretty sure it is night time in Japan and daytime in for the grand ole USA. See how that works?

You choose to ignore every one of my posts outlining the very reason for why the change needs to happen. See, I know that the majority of folks overseas are not maliciously trying to gain an advantage by playing on an empty map, yet you seem to paint this need for changing the score system as an attack. It's about correcting an issue with scoreboards and the population disparity tied to them - I mentioned that several times in this thread. Ignoring facts doesn't make you right.

Please do not falsely accuse me of ignoring something because I disagree based on how the idea is intended to minimize the value of some players.

If your idea is to have a cap set that would be reached before or near the end of prime time where you live then it is about segregation. It is about creating inequality and telling people who play at different times because of where they live or the hours they work that their money or playtime efforts are to have a reduced value. You have even inferred these people of exploiting because their playtime differs from yours.

That is specifically what the idea in the OP is presenting.

How is what we have right now any better? Right now, people from other timezones are demonized by others just for simply playing the game when they are awake. The scoring system needs to work for everyone. You are starting to sound like one of the bad apples that are actually trying to exploit the system, making the rest of the overseas folks here look bad. That's poor taste, dude. This change would end the pointless animosity between timezones and you're against it because you personally profit off of it...

It is a monumentally poor idea to pander to people who falsely claim appropriate playing of the game is an exploit. The people overseas are not being made to look bad via these false accusations. It is those professing these deceitful assertions that are showing how petty they are.

Yes, the change would end this pointless bickering because the people in AUS, NZ, JPN and people who work different hours would be smart enough to tell Zos where to get off if they implement such a ill-thought idea.

The proposed idea is about hate. Pure and simple. I expect Zos will avoid implementing such policies.

therift

I believe there is merit in OP's suggestion; it merely needs refinement.

I thought throwing in the 'obligatory reminder... yada yada yada' would be perceived as the joke I intended and not as a point of debate.

Runaway scores, which are often exacerbated by the fact there are far more players in certain time zones than other seems to me to be a condition that can be improved.

SeaGtGruff

It never amazes me how some ESO players believe that their chosen play styles and play times should get preferential consideration from ZOS.

My normal play time is usually 12 AM through 6 AM Eastern US Time, give or take a few hours. While I hardly ever wander into Cyrodiil unless there's some sort of event going on, and I have basically zero interest in the Alliance War as a whole, the idea that-- if I should happen to capture some resources or join a group of my fellow Alliance players in capturing some keeps-- my efforts should somehow count for naught is just wrong.

Besides, the last time there was a Cyrodiil event and I ran around trying to capture resources that were assigned to me by the job board, the resources I captured were retaken sooner or later by the other Alliances.

kmcaj

No. War doesn't sleep. If you can't stay awake 24-7 and skip things like work, that's a you issue.

Vercingetorix

therift wrote: »

I believe there is merit in OP's suggestion; it merely needs refinement.

I thought throwing in the 'obligatory reminder... yada yada yada' would be perceived as the joke I intended and not as a point of debate.

Runaway scores, which are often exacerbated by the fact there are far more players in certain time zones than other seems to me to be a condition that can be improved.

Yeah, it's my fault - I poorly worded the initial thread and folks ran away with it before I could clearly explain how it could be implemented. If anything, this thread has proven my point that animosity between timezones does exist and there is something fundamentally wrong with the current score system. A stagnated scoring cap in 6-hour cycles would help combat the issue so that every timezone can contribute. After the cap is reached, the leading faction must still maintain the board state so that their next 6-hour cycle is fruitful, otherwise they risk losing their lead. This still provides an opportunity for trailing factions to mount a comeback from a reasonable score gap.

Vercingetorix

kmcaj wrote: »

No. War doesn't sleep. If you can't stay awake 24-7 and skip things like work, that's a you issue.

Haha, yes "all pvp and no work makes Jack an emp". This is very true in Cyrodiil and why being emperor is something most folks will never bother with.

idk

Vercingetorix wrote: »

@PizzaCat82

@Aurielle

No, the capped daily score would be stagnated every 6 hours during the day. What this means is that no one timezone can gain an unfair advantage over another timezone's progress. That timezone, if they reach their cap, can still earn AP and help pave the way for future point gain when the next 6 hour cycle starts. My post wasn't clear about this because I didn't think I needed to point that out. Honestly the fact that the score system needs to be changed at all was what I was trying to get across to folks because the way it is right now is completely skewed and making guilds drop Cyrodiil altogether since their effort is being nullified without a chance to defend their lead.

I just looked over the OP again and this comment seems to be intentionally misleading as the OP makes it the cap is daily and makes no mention of it being spread out into 6 time periods.

I have provided a full quote of the OP as it stands at this moment for reference. I might have read it wrong but I do not think I missed this point.

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Faction Lock was a great first step towards improving the competitive spirit in Cyrodiil, but one more plague exists and it needs to be dealt with if there's to be an actual competition in Cyrodiil. For those who don't know, the act of nightcapping is storming a map during off-hours and gaining many points completely unopposed. For many players, this behavior is met with negativity because it leads to a skewed score increase that is unrepresentative of the contributions and hard work of others in the campaign. The solution to handling this problem is rather simple: place daily faction score caps on each faction's progress for 1st/2nd/3rd place. To be absolutely clear, these would be caps on daily FACTION SCORE gain, NOT player AP.

By implementing a daily cap on the amount of points a faction can earn, factions that perform hard work to overcome resistance during their play hours will not be undermined by players who are online during hours where the enemy is not present. Any player during any time of the day can make progress for their faction, but that progress will be capped each day, regardless of whether they capture 10 or 60 keeps during the night. This means that a faction that earns their 1st place lead and can only be beaten by a faction that rallies together and denies that 1st place faction progress on the battlefield. Yes, this change will lead to a player surge in activity at the start of a campaign, but a 1st place lead is only as good as the effort put forth to maintain it. With both faction lock and daily faction score caps, Cyrodiil's score system will promote healthy competition, regardless of a player's timezone.

EDIT: I'm aware of the fact that players in other timezones are not all maliciously trying to gain an advantage - I know it's just the time you happen to be playing the game. For you, I'm sure NA "primetime" feels like nightcapping, so this change helps everyone out. I think the negative connotation derives from a history of players being shortchanged by a score system that doesn't take into account timezone disparity. If anything, this is the biggest reason why this change needs to happen.

Varaug_Gaming

you think a real life war ends in the evening with all the soldiers leaving and going home to check in next day at 8 am again?

Vercingetorix

Varaug_Gaming wrote: »

you think a real life war ends in the evening with all the soldiers leaving and going home to check in next day at 8 am again?

No, the next shift clocks in.

idk

I was correct above. OP has edited the OP to reflect their new vision I quoted above.

However this is pointless.

1. What some falsely call night capping will still happen. They will have the full 6 hours to reap the rewards of their rewards.
2. It still tells some people their work is unimportant. If they log in late in the NA prime time the cap should be reached so their efforts will be pointless outside of personal AP.

3. and most important. It specifically will prevent a trailing faction to make inroads to catch up to the leadign faction during NA prime time. The design oringally and as modified in the current edit is desigend to protect the lead of whatever faction is leading.

These three reasons are just a tip of the subject but do demonstrate how the idea is not healthy for the game by any means.

SirAndy

Quit your job, sleep during your day, play during your night.

Problem solved, you're welcome ...

UrQuan

idk wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

@PizzaCat82

@Aurielle

No, the capped daily score would be stagnated every 6 hours during the day. What this means is that no one timezone can gain an unfair advantage over another timezone's progress. That timezone, if they reach their cap, can still earn AP and help pave the way for future point gain when the next 6 hour cycle starts. My post wasn't clear about this because I didn't think I needed to point that out. Honestly the fact that the score system needs to be changed at all was what I was trying to get across to folks because the way it is right now is completely skewed and making guilds drop Cyrodiil altogether since their effort is being nullified without a chance to defend their lead.

I just looked over the OP again and this comment seems to be intentionally misleading as the OP makes it the cap is daily and makes no mention of it being spread out into 6 time periods.

I have provided a full quote of the OP as it stands at this moment for reference. I might have read it wrong but I do not think I missed this point.

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Faction Lock was a great first step towards improving the competitive spirit in Cyrodiil, but one more plague exists and it needs to be dealt with if there's to be an actual competition in Cyrodiil. For those who don't know, the act of nightcapping is storming a map during off-hours and gaining many points completely unopposed. For many players, this behavior is met with negativity because it leads to a skewed score increase that is unrepresentative of the contributions and hard work of others in the campaign. The solution to handling this problem is rather simple: place daily faction score caps on each faction's progress for 1st/2nd/3rd place. To be absolutely clear, these would be caps on daily FACTION SCORE gain, NOT player AP.

By implementing a daily cap on the amount of points a faction can earn, factions that perform hard work to overcome resistance during their play hours will not be undermined by players who are online during hours where the enemy is not present. Any player during any time of the day can make progress for their faction, but that progress will be capped each day, regardless of whether they capture 10 or 60 keeps during the night. This means that a faction that earns their 1st place lead and can only be beaten by a faction that rallies together and denies that 1st place faction progress on the battlefield. Yes, this change will lead to a player surge in activity at the start of a campaign, but a 1st place lead is only as good as the effort put forth to maintain it. With both faction lock and daily faction score caps, Cyrodiil's score system will promote healthy competition, regardless of a player's timezone.

EDIT: I'm aware of the fact that players in other timezones are not all maliciously trying to gain an advantage - I know it's just the time you happen to be playing the game. For you, I'm sure NA "primetime" feels like nightcapping, so this change helps everyone out. I think the negative connotation derives from a history of players being shortchanged by a score system that doesn't take into account timezone disparity. If anything, this is the biggest reason why this change needs to happen.

I see that "adding further details to an idea that was previously only briefly described" is now considered being "intentionally misleading". OK, then.

generalmyrick

BGS is a cool mode....

you can q in and play for 15 minutes and there is a winner.

most times its even got 4 players on each team.

idk

UrQuan wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

@PizzaCat82

@Aurielle

No, the capped daily score would be stagnated every 6 hours during the day. What this means is that no one timezone can gain an unfair advantage over another timezone's progress. That timezone, if they reach their cap, can still earn AP and help pave the way for future point gain when the next 6 hour cycle starts. My post wasn't clear about this because I didn't think I needed to point that out. Honestly the fact that the score system needs to be changed at all was what I was trying to get across to folks because the way it is right now is completely skewed and making guilds drop Cyrodiil altogether since their effort is being nullified without a chance to defend their lead.

I just looked over the OP again and this comment seems to be intentionally misleading as the OP makes it the cap is daily and makes no mention of it being spread out into 6 time periods.

I have provided a full quote of the OP as it stands at this moment for reference. I might have read it wrong but I do not think I missed this point.

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Faction Lock was a great first step towards improving the competitive spirit in Cyrodiil, but one more plague exists and it needs to be dealt with if there's to be an actual competition in Cyrodiil. For those who don't know, the act of nightcapping is storming a map during off-hours and gaining many points completely unopposed. For many players, this behavior is met with negativity because it leads to a skewed score increase that is unrepresentative of the contributions and hard work of others in the campaign. The solution to handling this problem is rather simple: place daily faction score caps on each faction's progress for 1st/2nd/3rd place. To be absolutely clear, these would be caps on daily FACTION SCORE gain, NOT player AP.

By implementing a daily cap on the amount of points a faction can earn, factions that perform hard work to overcome resistance during their play hours will not be undermined by players who are online during hours where the enemy is not present. Any player during any time of the day can make progress for their faction, but that progress will be capped each day, regardless of whether they capture 10 or 60 keeps during the night. This means that a faction that earns their 1st place lead and can only be beaten by a faction that rallies together and denies that 1st place faction progress on the battlefield. Yes, this change will lead to a player surge in activity at the start of a campaign, but a 1st place lead is only as good as the effort put forth to maintain it. With both faction lock and daily faction score caps, Cyrodiil's score system will promote healthy competition, regardless of a player's timezone.

EDIT: I'm aware of the fact that players in other timezones are not all maliciously trying to gain an advantage - I know it's just the time you happen to be playing the game. For you, I'm sure NA "primetime" feels like nightcapping, so this change helps everyone out. I think the negative connotation derives from a history of players being shortchanged by a score system that doesn't take into account timezone disparity. If anything, this is the biggest reason why this change needs to happen.

I see that "adding further details to an idea that was previously only briefly described" is now considered being "intentionally misleading". OK, then.

@UrQuan

If you look at the spoiler I clearly included the quote of the OP as it was when that statement was made. I clearly stated that I looked over the OP when I saw the comment in question.

So yes, When it was made it was clearly and intentionally misleading as that information was not included in the OP and the quoted comment made was as though the person has misread the OP, which is not the case

So my comments were very accurate and included proof.

seratin

A better idea would be to have a score multiplier based on the number of people your faction has logged in. This way a small group of players during the off hours can still score some easy points though not as many as are up for grabs during prime time. If the "nightcappers" are able to both take the map and bring in a large group than frankly they deserve the points they get. Their time is just as valuable as anyone else's.

Vlad9425

Once again a thread highlighting a real issue that is actually ruining PvP on some servers and once again more idiots trying to explain that time zones are a thing as if no one knows what time zones are. Let me try and make it as clear as possible to you people. Nightcapping exists, it’s a very big problem on EU servers specially where the server peaks at roughly similar times (due to the time zones you people love to bring up). Groups are using the fact that the server peaks at a certain time to jump on one alliance, do their PvDoor and take all the keeps, scrolls and Emp completely unopposed. It is completely disrespectful to everyone who put in work during the day and it ruins the end result of the campaign because the scoring ticks as normal even when the server is almost empty. I’m not sure how many threads like this need to be brought up until people actually start to actually use their brain and see the issue.

Salvas_Aren

So, you tell the Aussies to pay you respect?

Maybe if they play during their night time and let the server glow, you feel better?

Varaug_Gaming

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Once again a thread highlighting a real issue that is actually ruining PvP on some servers and once again more idiots trying to explain that time zones are a thing as if no one knows what time zones are. Let me try and make it as clear as possible to you people. Nightcapping exists, it’s a very big problem on EU servers specially where the server peaks at roughly similar times (due to the time zones you people love to bring up). Groups are using the fact that the server peaks at a certain time to jump on one alliance, do their PvDoor and take all the keeps, scrolls and Emp completely unopposed. It is completely disrespectful to everyone who put in work during the day and it ruins the end result of the campaign because the scoring ticks as normal even when the server is almost empty. I’m not sure how many threads like this need to be brought up until people actually start to actually use their brain and see the issue.

maybe you dont deserve those 20 wall repair kits when you only put in minimal effort and only contribute a little during prime time

idk

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Once again a thread highlighting a real issue that is actually ruining PvP on some servers and once again more idiots trying to explain that time zones are a thing as if no one knows what time zones are. Let me try and make it as clear as possible to you people. Nightcapping exists, it’s a very big problem on EU servers specially where the server peaks at roughly similar times (due to the time zones you people love to bring up). Groups are using the fact that the server peaks at a certain time to jump on one alliance, do their PvDoor and take all the keeps, scrolls and Emp completely unopposed. It is completely disrespectful to everyone who put in work during the day and it ruins the end result of the campaign because the scoring ticks as normal even when the server is almost empty. I’m not sure how many threads like this need to be brought up until people actually start to actually use their brain and see the issue.

It is not ruining PvP. It is Cyrodiil as it was designed. Some people seem to have a view that Cyrodiil is intended to be competitive PvP to begin with which is incorrect.

SirAndy

rynth wrote: »

ahh the zerg's are crying again about making things fair for them. Uninstall and zerg somewhere else already can't play with friends on other factions because some little kids went crying.

Are you talking about the zergs that claim "nightcapping" isn't fair to them or are you talking about the zergs that claim that claiming "nightcapping" isn't fair to them isn't fair?

KerinKor

Vercingetorix wrote: »

yet you seem to paint this need for changing the score system as an attack.

That's what happens when someone suggests fixing a design flaw someone else like to exploit for their benefit .. BTW 'exploit' means 'makes use of' for those whose English is challenged, of who there are many on MMO forums, not everything that's exploited is an 'exploit' as called out by the developers.

idk

KerinKor wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

yet you seem to paint this need for changing the score system as an attack.

That's what happens when someone suggests fixing a design flaw someone else like to exploit for their benefit .. BTW 'exploit' means 'makes use of' for those whose English is challenged, of who there are many on MMO forums, not everything that's exploited is an 'exploit' as called out by the developers.

It is hardly a design flaw. I think the confusion is based in a false notion that Cyrodiil was designed and intended to be competitive.

EmEm_Oh

Like another person said, there are 24-hours in a day, worldwide. To cap the "nightcapping", would be penalizing those who can only play when most are asleep. Even if there are players who logon, knowing few players are on and can get a lot of ap...so what. I don't think it's a problem, as it can be easily fixed by a few opposing players getting online.

I have to admit, I've done it once in the last several months just because I couldn't sleep and figured, hey, might as well get some ap.

Aurielle

KerinKor wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

yet you seem to paint this need for changing the score system as an attack.

That's what happens when someone suggests fixing a design flaw someone else like to exploit for their benefit .. BTW 'exploit' means 'makes use of' for those whose English is challenged, of who there are many on MMO forums, not everything that's exploited is an 'exploit' as called out by the developers.

How is the current scoring system a “design flaw”? It’s a game that runs 24/7, and one that is played by people who have widely varying work schedules. You simply cannot balance score gains around such a varied player base. To have your efforts only count towards the campaign score some of the time is ridiculous. The OP’s amended 6 hour bracket idea is no better than the original idea of a daily score cap. If I’m putting in the effort for my alliance, I darn well want that effort to count towards the outcome of the campaign — no matter what time of the day it is, or how far ahead/behind my alliance is. How the heck is implementing score caps supposed to incentivize faction loyalty and commitment to the campaign?

I’m a 12 hour shift worker. If someone tells me that my efforts are going to count for less, just because I’m playing during “off-peak” hours on my days/nights off, that’s someone who’s going to lose my respect very quickly.

idk

EmEm_Oh wrote: »

Like another person said, there are 24-hours in a day, worldwide. To cap the "nightcapping", would be penalizing those who can only play when most are asleep. Even if there are players who logon, knowing few players are on and can get a lot of ap...so what. I don't think it's a problem, as it can be easily fixed by a few opposing players getting online.

I have to admit, I've done it once in the last several months just because I couldn't sleep and figured, hey, might as well get some ap.

The old saying that it is 5 o'clock somewhere is appropriate here. With a 24/7 PvP instance one persons night time is another persons daytime. That is the hard fact of the matter.