Update on Guild History & Related Performance Issue

reoskit

Please repin this thread.

Additionally, console users are still waiting for an update regarding their borked guild histories. It's been 4 full business days since the patch and not a word from ZOS on the issue. This is no way to treat your community.

majulook

so this issue is not going to be fixed?

FreshlyB8ked

@ZOS_RichLambert

There appears to be some legit concerns here from Console users and with their guild history.
Why is this not being addressed the same as it was for the other platforms?

valeriiya

@ZOS_RichLambert does not care about this issue or any other and hasn't for a long time

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »
» show previous quotes

"You know you don't have to be here right?"

wavingblue

Only legit concerns manglement have are crown store concerns, if this was a crown store issue they would swoop in and handle it immediately. As I posted in another thread I really think this game is on the verge of imploding with high usage.

PC EU is damned near unplayable at peak, PC NA is closely following and now console seems to have reached where PC was a few weeks ago. Remember ZOS did this exact thing... they dropped the nuke and THEN told everyone after huge outcry they actually dropped the nuke.

I know at every single opportunity when ZOS has asked for influencers feedback it has been conveyed very strongly stop with the new features and fix your game. This goes all the way back a few years to the Elseweyr preview, they were resoundingly told fix things. This has been ignored. They blamed add-ons for all the problems, now console has the same issues that EU and NA had... WITHOUT ADD-ONS. Community managers after admitting they don't communicate well... have fallen to not only right back to where communication was but managed to make it far worse. I've already voted with my dollars and very close to voting with my time.. they have too high of a population to keep the game running smoothly, fine, I'll assist and not add to the load. Also means they lose a few hundred dollars a year but meh, that's not a big deal to them.

Elsonso

wavingblue wrote: »

I know at every single opportunity when ZOS has asked for influencers feedback it has been conveyed very strongly stop with the new features and fix your game.

Hmm. I am thinking back to when I was a lowly "influencer" that got accidentally invited to ZOS, and accepted before they realized their mistake...

I don't recall the question coming up, but I do know my answer to such a question: If you stop developing new content, you will lose me as a customer. I expect you to do both. If you cannot fix your game, and develop new content, simultaneously, you have bigger problems that need to be addressed, first.

wavingblue

lordrichter wrote: »

[quote="wavingblue;c-6224151"I know at every single opportunity when ZOS has asked for influencers feedback it has been conveyed very strongly stop with the new features and fix your game.

Hmm. I am thinking back to when I was a lowly "influencer" that got accidentally invited to ZOS, and accepted before they realized their mistake...

I don't recall the question coming up, but I do know my answer to such a question: If you stop developing new content, you will lose me as a customer. I expect you to do both. If you cannot fix your game, and develop new content, simultaneously, you have bigger problems that need to be addressed, first.

[/quote]

Pretty damned clear they can't do both... its obvious from the past year that rolling out new content has introduced new flaws and exposed the flaws in the game. Don't worry, apparently you will keep getting new content, game is collapsing at every turn but at least its collapsing on new content. They have refused to address their bigger problems so the new content brigade rolls along.

Elsonso

wavingblue wrote: »

Pretty damned clear they can't do both... its obvious from the past year that rolling out new content has introduced new flaws and exposed the flaws in the game. Don't worry, apparently you will keep getting new content, game is collapsing at every turn but at least its collapsing on new content. They have refused to address their bigger problems so the new content brigade rolls along.

I don't see that as clear at all. Forum pessimism aside, it is clear that they are working on fixes while working on content. The question is more along the lines of whether they are providing enough resources to complete these concurrent fixes in a timely manner.

DaveMoeDee

luton0watford4 wrote: »

Perhaps the best solution to to remove the guild finder function. If this is the root of the problem, then why don't you just remove it?

@ZOS_RichLambert

Damage is already done as guild participation is at an all time high. That won't undo all the added guild memberships.

DaveMoeDee

wavingblue wrote: »

Only legit concerns manglement have are crown store concerns, if this was a crown store issue they would swoop in and handle it immediately. As I posted in another thread I really think this game is on the verge of imploding with high usage.

PC EU is damned near unplayable at peak, PC NA is closely following and now console seems to have reached where PC was a few weeks ago. Remember ZOS did this exact thing... they dropped the nuke and THEN told everyone after huge outcry they actually dropped the nuke.

I know at every single opportunity when ZOS has asked for influencers feedback it has been conveyed very strongly stop with the new features and fix your game. This goes all the way back a few years to the Elseweyr preview, they were resoundingly told fix things. This has been ignored. They blamed add-ons for all the problems, now console has the same issues that EU and NA had... WITHOUT ADD-ONS. Community managers after admitting they don't communicate well... have fallen to not only right back to where communication was but managed to make it far worse. I've already voted with my dollars and very close to voting with my time.. they have too high of a population to keep the game running smoothly, fine, I'll assist and not add to the load. Also means they lose a few hundred dollars a year but meh, that's not a big deal to them.

Crown store is a tiny database of relatively static information. I get it. You are bitter and want to trash the devs because that makes you feel better. But your claim is so over-the-top. Considering all the resources they have working on non-crown store development, you first paragraph contributes nothing to the discussion.

They aren't saying addons are the only problem. Addons mean way more pings against the database, causing dramatic performance issues much quicker than merely increasing guild membership. That doesn't mean that base game requests can't on their own take down the database if there is enough activity. It just means the problem arises first with addons flooding the backend with requests.

The communication isn't the problem here. Even with the explanation in this thread you are here trying to twist it into something you can rant about. No communication will soothe you until there is a fix.

wavingblue

lordrichter wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

Pretty damned clear they can't do both... its obvious from the past year that rolling out new content has introduced new flaws and exposed the flaws in the game. Don't worry, apparently you will keep getting new content, game is collapsing at every turn but at least its collapsing on new content. They have refused to address their bigger problems so the new content brigade rolls along.

I don't see that as clear at all. Forum pessimism aside, it is clear that they are working on fixes while working on content. The question is more along the lines of whether they are providing enough resources to complete these concurrent fixes in a timely manner.

Forum pessimism? So this is just forum pessimism. LFG hasn't been borked for a couple of years and had to be cut back so now you queue to queue. PC EU isn't a performance disaster. PC trading guilds weren't crippled with unannounced complete cut off of trading data and now relegated to a sketchy system for getting the data that may or may not work. Console has lost access to all their trade guild information, much like PC did a few weeks ago with no response.. but that's forum pessimism. Cyrodil isn't a complete mess, its the forums. Got it, nothing to see here, just forum pessimism.

p00tx

wavingblue wrote: »

Only legit concerns manglement have are crown store concerns, if this was a crown store issue they would swoop in and handle it immediately. As I posted in another thread I really think this game is on the verge of imploding with high usage.

PC EU is damned near unplayable at peak, PC NA is closely following and now console seems to have reached where PC was a few weeks ago. Remember ZOS did this exact thing... they dropped the nuke and THEN told everyone after huge outcry they actually dropped the nuke.

Console has been there for years, mostly in PvP. It's just that it's leaked out into vanilla game and PvE now and is like that even outside of peak hours, so it apparently actually currently matters to the rest of the community. Better late than never, I guess.

wavingblue

p00tx wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

Only legit concerns manglement have are crown store concerns, if this was a crown store issue they would swoop in and handle it immediately. As I posted in another thread I really think this game is on the verge of imploding with high usage.

PC EU is damned near unplayable at peak, PC NA is closely following and now console seems to have reached where PC was a few weeks ago. Remember ZOS did this exact thing... they dropped the nuke and THEN told everyone after huge outcry they actually dropped the nuke.

Console has been there for years, mostly in PvP. It's just that it's leaked out into vanilla game and PvE now and is like that even outside of peak hours, so it apparently actually currently matters to the rest of the community. Better late than never, I guess.

This thread is about trade guilds, that is what I am referencing, trade guilds, trade data, trade this, trade that. Your trade data got turned off like ours did. That is what I am referencing. Especially because ZOS blamed add-ons for the issue.

Elsonso

wavingblue wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

Pretty damned clear they can't do both... its obvious from the past year that rolling out new content has introduced new flaws and exposed the flaws in the game. Don't worry, apparently you will keep getting new content, game is collapsing at every turn but at least its collapsing on new content. They have refused to address their bigger problems so the new content brigade rolls along.

I don't see that as clear at all. Forum pessimism aside, it is clear that they are working on fixes while working on content. The question is more along the lines of whether they are providing enough resources to complete these concurrent fixes in a timely manner.

Forum pessimism? So this is just forum pessimism. LFG hasn't been borked for a couple of years and had to be cut back so now you queue to queue. PC EU isn't a performance disaster. PC trading guilds weren't crippled with unannounced complete cut off of trading data and now relegated to a sketchy system for getting the data that may or may not work. Console has lost access to all their trade guild information, much like PC did a few weeks ago with no response.. but that's forum pessimism. Cyrodil isn't a complete mess, its the forums. Got it, nothing to see here, just forum pessimism.

Uh.

The question is more along the lines of whether they are providing enough resources to complete these concurrent fixes in a timely manner.

Linaleah

lordrichter wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

Pretty damned clear they can't do both... its obvious from the past year that rolling out new content has introduced new flaws and exposed the flaws in the game. Don't worry, apparently you will keep getting new content, game is collapsing at every turn but at least its collapsing on new content. They have refused to address their bigger problems so the new content brigade rolls along.

I don't see that as clear at all. Forum pessimism aside, it is clear that they are working on fixes while working on content. The question is more along the lines of whether they are providing enough resources to complete these concurrent fixes in a timely manner.

Forum pessimism? So this is just forum pessimism. LFG hasn't been borked for a couple of years and had to be cut back so now you queue to queue. PC EU isn't a performance disaster. PC trading guilds weren't crippled with unannounced complete cut off of trading data and now relegated to a sketchy system for getting the data that may or may not work. Console has lost access to all their trade guild information, much like PC did a few weeks ago with no response.. but that's forum pessimism. Cyrodil isn't a complete mess, its the forums. Got it, nothing to see here, just forum pessimism.

Uh.

The question is more along the lines of whether they are providing enough resources to complete these concurrent fixes in a timely manner.

given that some of the issues have been in game for years and are only getting worse, the answer seems to be.. NO?

Elsonso

Linaleah wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

Pretty damned clear they can't do both... its obvious from the past year that rolling out new content has introduced new flaws and exposed the flaws in the game. Don't worry, apparently you will keep getting new content, game is collapsing at every turn but at least its collapsing on new content. They have refused to address their bigger problems so the new content brigade rolls along.

I don't see that as clear at all. Forum pessimism aside, it is clear that they are working on fixes while working on content. The question is more along the lines of whether they are providing enough resources to complete these concurrent fixes in a timely manner.

Forum pessimism? So this is just forum pessimism. LFG hasn't been borked for a couple of years and had to be cut back so now you queue to queue. PC EU isn't a performance disaster. PC trading guilds weren't crippled with unannounced complete cut off of trading data and now relegated to a sketchy system for getting the data that may or may not work. Console has lost access to all their trade guild information, much like PC did a few weeks ago with no response.. but that's forum pessimism. Cyrodil isn't a complete mess, its the forums. Got it, nothing to see here, just forum pessimism.

Uh.

The question is more along the lines of whether they are providing enough resources to complete these concurrent fixes in a timely manner.

given that some of the issues have been in game for years and are only getting worse, the answer seems to be.. NO?

That much seems obvious. I do wish they would prioritize fixes at a higher level within the studio. They seem to have a rather laid back approach. If they did new content like they did fixes, we'd probably be at Update 10 rather than Update 23.

They need to do fixes like they do updates, not swap the two.

reoskit

I've written up some feedback regarding the server push of guild history on PTS.

As originally stated at the beginning of this thread, it's hard to test without real amounts of data and lots of live sales, but here you go:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/486455/guild-history-server-push-feedback/p1?new=1

If you test, please join in.

redlink1979

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Hi All!

More players in guilds is a great thing… but this has also surfaced a nasty performance problem with guild history, that is exacerbated by user-created add-ons that constantly query it for data. With significantly larger guilds, and more people using these add-ons, we’ve seen a huge amount of load on the servers that can’t be solved by throwing more hardware at the problem.

In the short term, we are throttling how much and how often add-ons can request the guild history. We will be making tweaks to this throttling over the next few days to find an acceptable balance between performance and user experience. Longer term, we’re working on changing the guild history to be more effectively queried by data being pushed to the client instead of allowing add-ons to poll the data on a whim. This work is being done now, and should be ready for testing with U23 PTS. (which is only a few weeks away!)

Thanks for being patient with us while we work through this one. It’s been a particularly difficult issue to nail down.

-rich

We don't have addons on consoles and yet we suffer from the same problems: lag in every game zone (with huge fps drops in certain areas), huge amounts of lag in Cyro and same guild issues. Our problem grows exponentially during the "prime time" hours, weekends and event days.

JKorr

valeriiya wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert does not care about this issue or any other and hasn't for a long time

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »
» show previous quotes

"You know you don't have to be here right?"

I really wish people would stop using that out of context. That comment was in one thread that was actually a nice discussion between people playing ESO, and another player who happened to be a dev who played ESO. BACK IN 2016. It was discussing playing the game, and how he saw things from the player viewpoint. The rather rude threadcrapper who kept interrupting with not on topic posts about the game being a pos prompted that reply. If the poster thought the game sucked donkeyballs, he didn't have to be here.

Here you go: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/277898/rich-lambert-im-calling-you-out/p1

Gosh. I wonder why the devs stay away from any but the bare minimum of communication.....Three years, and people still pull that line up and use it out of context for TEH DRAMA!

therift

JKorr wrote: »

valeriiya wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert does not care about this issue or any other and hasn't for a long time

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »
» show previous quotes

"You know you don't have to be here right?"

I really wish people would stop using that out of context. That comment was in one thread that was actually a nice discussion between people playing ESO, and another player who happened to be a dev who played ESO. BACK IN 2016. It was discussing playing the game, and how he saw things from the player viewpoint. The rather rude threadcrapper who kept interrupting with not on topic posts about the game being a pos prompted that reply. If the poster thought the game sucked donkeyballs, he didn't have to be here.

Here you go: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/277898/rich-lambert-im-calling-you-out/p1

Gosh. I wonder why the devs stay away from any but the bare minimum of communication.....Three years, and people still pull that line up and use it out of context for TEH DRAMA!

Thank you for this. It's about time this meme was crushed.

phuein

It's great to hear of further attempts to improve the trader system. But this post doesn't encourage me. Even before this player influx - selling, buying, and searching in traders have been slow and buggy!

Throttling the data requests only makes it worse.

Pushing data to the clients will lead to even worse performance. A casual non-trading player will not notice anything, but an actual trading player will suffer even more nonsensical delays.

Players who trade regularly should be treated differently to players who don't trade often. The server should identify behavioral patterns. This is simple AI. There is no way around this solution.

valeriiya

JKorr wrote: »

valeriiya wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert does not care about this issue or any other and hasn't for a long time

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »
» show previous quotes

"You know you don't have to be here right?"

I really wish people would stop using that out of context. That comment was in one thread that was actually a nice discussion between people playing ESO, and another player who happened to be a dev who played ESO. BACK IN 2016. It was discussing playing the game, and how he saw things from the player viewpoint. The rather rude threadcrapper who kept interrupting with not on topic posts about the game being a pos prompted that reply. If the poster thought the game sucked donkeyballs, he didn't have to be here.

Here you go: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/277898/rich-lambert-im-calling-you-out/p1

Gosh. I wonder why the devs stay away from any but the bare minimum of communication.....Three years, and people still pull that line up and use it out of context for TEH DRAMA!

@JKorr and @therift hold on a minute and I'll get something off his Twitter from this year brb. The fact is that he doesn't care and the people in charge of the money extra don't care about performance as long as the money keeps rolling in.

How about this quote from @ZOS_RobGarrett regarding game performance?

Slowing Down Content Releases and the Great Fix Patch
I spoke with Rob about the fast release of updates and if ZOS had considered doing a “Great Fix Patch” for one of their updates. He said it’s a question they get a lot and whilst it’s not off the table they as a company do need to produce for everyone and a majority of the bugs and issues faced are not ones everyone encounters or are drastically halting gameplay, as such they need to continue creating content for people who want new content to play and and don’t play at the higher level to notice if a skill or mechanic works a little wonky.



Let me know if you need a few more examples

reoskit

Before y'all go further down the rabbit hole of attacking/defending an individual, please remember that this thread's topic is "Update on Guild History & Related Performance Issue."

Could we please stay on that specific topic?

There's a new guild history mechanic on PTS designed to address performance issues. If you have access to the PTS, it's time to prove we actually care about what we've been demanding. They answered the call and provided a system. Go test it. Provide feedback.

(Even if the feedback is that it can't be tested... but that's a whole different issue.)

JKorr

valeriiya wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

valeriiya wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert does not care about this issue or any other and hasn't for a long time

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »
» show previous quotes

"You know you don't have to be here right?"

I really wish people would stop using that out of context. That comment was in one thread that was actually a nice discussion between people playing ESO, and another player who happened to be a dev who played ESO. BACK IN 2016. It was discussing playing the game, and how he saw things from the player viewpoint. The rather rude threadcrapper who kept interrupting with not on topic posts about the game being a pos prompted that reply. If the poster thought the game sucked donkeyballs, he didn't have to be here.

Here you go: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/277898/rich-lambert-im-calling-you-out/p1

Gosh. I wonder why the devs stay away from any but the bare minimum of communication.....Three years, and people still pull that line up and use it out of context for TEH DRAMA!

@JKorr and @therift hold on a minute and I'll get something off his Twitter from this year brb. The fact is that he doesn't care and the people in charge of the money extra don't care about performance as long as the money keeps rolling in.

How about this quote from @ZOS_RobGarrett regarding game performance?

Slowing Down Content Releases and the Great Fix Patch
I spoke with Rob about the fast release of updates and if ZOS had considered doing a “Great Fix Patch” for one of their updates. He said it’s a question they get a lot and whilst it’s not off the table they as a company do need to produce for everyone and a majority of the bugs and issues faced are not ones everyone encounters or are drastically halting gameplay, as such they need to continue creating content for people who want new content to play and and don’t play at the higher level to notice if a skill or mechanic works a little wonky.

Let me know if you need a few more examples

Still not the same thing. Using out of context quotes to attack/dismiss/smear devs is not exactly new behavior but at this point the people who don't want a discussion or have an agenda will pull that up every time. No reason/evidence, but gosh it looks good. As for the quote you posted; welcome to big business reality, they will do what is best for the company. Something really game-breaking that effects a majority will get fixed. Smaller issues, maybe not as fast, or not at all.

It would be a good thing if the bug reports from the PTS were checked before the update went live. I used to try to check the pts, but time constraints and a new pc has ruled that out at the present time.

therift

I'm hoping that the switch from client-pull data updates to server-push will resolve most, if not all, Guild History issues once and for all. Perhaps such a switch is long overdue, considering the number of guilds present in the game now, the number of players, etc.

When PC/Mac had their Guild History throttled back in June, and had the critical guild management add-ons disabled, I recollect a comment from ZoS somewhere that adding Guild Finder had exposed a weakness in the current data transfer procedure. I trust that this is the fix for that.

And it would be interesting to hear from an add-on author how this change may affect their products, and if it may possibly permit enhancements. I'm thinking that if updates are broadcast rather than pulled, perhaps there is less pressure for the add-on to deliver updates as fast as possible to ensure Guild History data correlates precisely with add-on data.

reoskit

therift wrote: »

And it would be interesting to hear from an add-on author how this change may affect their products, and if it may possibly permit enhancements. I'm thinking that if updates are broadcast rather than pulled, perhaps there is less pressure for the add-on to deliver updates as fast as possible to ensure Guild History data correlates precisely with add-on data.

@Philgo68 & @sylviermoone - Regarding the above, I've been wondering the same. I'm sure you guys are already looking into it and I didn't want to breathe down your neck... I'm sure plenty of people have asked... But, poke poke. Tagging you just the same.

sylviermoone

reoskit wrote: »

therift wrote: »

And it would be interesting to hear from an add-on author how this change may affect their products, and if it may possibly permit enhancements. I'm thinking that if updates are broadcast rather than pulled, perhaps there is less pressure for the add-on to deliver updates as fast as possible to ensure Guild History data correlates precisely with add-on data.

@Philgo68 & @sylviermoone - Regarding the above, I've been wondering the same. I'm sure you guys are already looking into it and I didn't want to breathe down your neck... I'm sure plenty of people have asked... But, poke poke. Tagging you just the same.

We're looking into the patch notes now and will be testing MM on PTS over the next couple week to determine how to proceed.

Gut reaction though is that once per minute is half as fast as we're able to get information now, which would make the process twice as slow. Phil and I are withholding judgment until we can actually get on PTS, though.

sylviermoone

Also, can this post be re-pinned, please?? This information is crucially important to the functioning of trade guilds; it would be great to not have to dig through pages upon pages of drivel to find it again.

Dont_do_drugs

sylviermoone wrote: »

Also, can this post be re-pinned, please?? This information is crucially important to the functioning of trade guilds; it would be great to not have to dig through pages upon pages of drivel to find it again.

it wouldn't come up your mind this thread has been unpinned for some reasons? they wont read us here anyways, as well as they didnt do on the pts feedback thread about multi bids.

SirAndy

valeriiya wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert does not care about this issue or any other and hasn't for a long time

ZOS_RichLambert wrote:
"You know you don't have to be here right?"

Just another part of "we are killing it" ...