Update on Guild History & Related Performance Issue

Elsonso

luton0watford4 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

kitsune_beth wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

kitsune_beth wrote: »

luton0watford4 wrote: »

Perhaps the best solution to to remove the guild finder function. If this is the root of the problem, then why don't you just remove it?

@ZOS_RichLambert

I agree. Why do people even need to look at a guilds history? Surely people can find other ways to find a guild too. There's a guild forum on here for example.

If it's causing so much of a problem, simply remove it.

Do u even know what the guild history is and which data it contains?

No, which is why I asked - sort of.

It contains a list of recent activity in the guild. Members added and removed, gold deposits, bank activity, trader activity (sales). It is useful for both people and addons to see what has been happening recently in the guild. Without it, guild management becomes harder, and it is not possible to get sales information from the trader. The latter is what I use to figure out what to sell stuff for (vs what people are asking).

It's not the guild history I am suggesting being removed. It is the new finder I want gone.

The new finder is not causing the problem. It helps show the problem, but indirectly. It is actually caused by other things, and can still happen, even without the guild finder. Removing the guild finder might make it harder to find guilds, but it does not fix the problem. They are trying to fix the problem with the changes they are making.

Dont_do_drugs

lordrichter wrote: »

luton0watford4 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

kitsune_beth wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

kitsune_beth wrote: »

luton0watford4 wrote: »

Perhaps the best solution to to remove the guild finder function. If this is the root of the problem, then why don't you just remove it?

@ZOS_RichLambert

I agree. Why do people even need to look at a guilds history? Surely people can find other ways to find a guild too. There's a guild forum on here for example.

If it's causing so much of a problem, simply remove it.

Do u even know what the guild history is and which data it contains?

No, which is why I asked - sort of.

It contains a list of recent activity in the guild. Members added and removed, gold deposits, bank activity, trader activity (sales). It is useful for both people and addons to see what has been happening recently in the guild. Without it, guild management becomes harder, and it is not possible to get sales information from the trader. The latter is what I use to figure out what to sell stuff for (vs what people are asking).

It's not the guild history I am suggesting being removed. It is the new finder I want gone.

The new finder is not causing the problem. It helps show the problem, but indirectly. It is actually caused by other things, and can still happen, even without the guild finder. Removing the guild finder might make it harder to find guilds, but it does not fix the problem. They are trying to fix the problem with the changes they are making.

I doubt the addons are the problem as well, there is just a sum of influences on the workload of the server, they are just removing or minimizing one influencer. I am pretty sure, thaere is much more than only that. After all, it kept me wondering for quite a while, how unintelligent this system was working as well as it kept me wondering for which reason zos never made a local solution for that data.

Why is it even possible to request 10 days sales history, why not less, why not saving and loading that data local, as those addons actually do, but those addons have no chance to ask server for specific missing data but have to crawl the history again. This has been built in times, where trading wasn't that extreme, where less people had been playing, but it is inefficient.

I just wonder, which solution zos will come up with. The good frequency of the addons requesting that data helped, that the new influx of data didn't lead into heavy fps Drops. The longer the interval, the bigger the packages which are getting visualized, the longer those fps drops/freezes. Atm people been starting to report 30sec based fpS drops/10sec freezes when zos sends the past packages in that interval, at least as long as ure not having the older data. This is also no top solution yet.

Elsonso

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

luton0watford4 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

kitsune_beth wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

kitsune_beth wrote: »

luton0watford4 wrote: »

Perhaps the best solution to to remove the guild finder function. If this is the root of the problem, then why don't you just remove it?

@ZOS_RichLambert

I agree. Why do people even need to look at a guilds history? Surely people can find other ways to find a guild too. There's a guild forum on here for example.

If it's causing so much of a problem, simply remove it.

Do u even know what the guild history is and which data it contains?

No, which is why I asked - sort of.

It contains a list of recent activity in the guild. Members added and removed, gold deposits, bank activity, trader activity (sales). It is useful for both people and addons to see what has been happening recently in the guild. Without it, guild management becomes harder, and it is not possible to get sales information from the trader. The latter is what I use to figure out what to sell stuff for (vs what people are asking).

It's not the guild history I am suggesting being removed. It is the new finder I want gone.

The new finder is not causing the problem. It helps show the problem, but indirectly. It is actually caused by other things, and can still happen, even without the guild finder. Removing the guild finder might make it harder to find guilds, but it does not fix the problem. They are trying to fix the problem with the changes they are making.

I doubt the addons are the problem as well, there is just a sum of influences on the workload of the server, they are just removing or minimizing one influencer. I am pretty sure, thaere is much more than only that. After all, it kept me wondering for quite a while, how unintelligent this system was working as well as it kept me wondering for which reason zos never made a local solution for that data.

Why is it even possible to request 10 days sales history, why not less, why not saving and loading that data local, as those addons actually do, but those addons have no chance to ask server for specific missing data but have to crawl the history again. This has been built in times, where trading wasn't that extreme, where less people had been playing, but it is inefficient.

I just wonder, which solution zos will come up with. The good frequency of the addons requesting that data helped, that the new influx of data didn't lead into heavy fps Drops. The longer the interval, the bigger the packages which are getting visualized, the longer those fps drops/freezes. Atm people been starting to report 30sec based fpS drops/10sec freezes when zos sends the past packages in that interval, at least as long as ure not having the older data. This is also no top solution yet.

The thing is that a well designed system, intended to deliver that information without impacting forground game play, should be able to deliver 30 days of history as easily as it does 1 day.

Dont_do_drugs

It, I guess, always depends on how u look on it. The system as designed yet sends repeatingly the same information to a user even if he received it multiple times. That's to me the definition of inefficiency. I do not ask, wether it should be able or not, I just ask why would someone do that.

Bam_Bam

Never saw any need for a guild finder. Seriously. It's not like guilds stand in every town advertising every 2 seconds

Delparis

hope you understand why this game went buy to play.

the issues they found out can't be fixed that's all.

reoskit

lordrichter wrote: »

luton0watford4 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

kitsune_beth wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

kitsune_beth wrote: »

luton0watford4 wrote: »

Perhaps the best solution to to remove the guild finder function. If this is the root of the problem, then why don't you just remove it?

@ZOS_RichLambert

I agree. Why do people even need to look at a guilds history? Surely people can find other ways to find a guild too. There's a guild forum on here for example.

If it's causing so much of a problem, simply remove it.

Do u even know what the guild history is and which data it contains?

No, which is why I asked - sort of.

It contains a list of recent activity in the guild. Members added and removed, gold deposits, bank activity, trader activity (sales). It is useful for both people and addons to see what has been happening recently in the guild. Without it, guild management becomes harder, and it is not possible to get sales information from the trader. The latter is what I use to figure out what to sell stuff for (vs what people are asking).

It's not the guild history I am suggesting being removed. It is the new finder I want gone.

The new finder is not causing the problem. It helps show the problem, but indirectly. It is actually caused by other things, and can still happen, even without the guild finder. Removing the guild finder might make it harder to find guilds, but it does not fix the problem. They are trying to fix the problem with the changes they are making.

I still think it's remarkably coincidental that, on the very day that they introduced the fix for the GF that finally allowed us to see all of the pending applications, all hell broke loose. That very day, the guild lists disappeared. The friends lists disappeared. The 10m chat lag showed up.

I don't think *that* many people joined guilds *that* day and started hammering on the history with MM. I just... man, I don't buy it.

Delparis

what Zenimax is doing to fix bugs

Elsonso

reoskit wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

The new finder is not causing the problem. It helps show the problem, but indirectly. It is actually caused by other things, and can still happen, even without the guild finder. Removing the guild finder might make it harder to find guilds, but it does not fix the problem. They are trying to fix the problem with the changes they are making.

I still think it's remarkably coincidental that, on the very day that they introduced the fix for the GF that finally allowed us to see all of the pending applications, all hell broke loose. That very day, the guild lists disappeared. The friends lists disappeared. The 10m chat lag showed up.

I don't think *that* many people joined guilds *that* day and started hammering on the history with MM. I just... man, I don't buy it.

Like I said, the guild finder is not CAUSING the problem. I think that the problem was there before the GF was even on the schedule. GF shows us the problem. The fix is to address the problem, not the GF.

idk

Zathras wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Thanks for being patient with us while we work through this one.

-rich

TBH, this isn't the only serious performance issue. As you can read on the forums, your customer's patience is wearing thin.

I must agree.

Most certainly thank you for the update on the guild history issue and it is a very good update. However there are major issues that have gone without this level of communication and some like the GF have persisted for 2 years. The in-combat bug in it's current iteration has persisted since last year yet it is not even pinned to the Dev tracker even though Gina has acknowledged it.

Both are major issues and since both severally impede the game (one being a game system) it would be great to get a comparable level of communication concerning those issues. Neither can be blamed on the recent influx of players.

MCBIZZLE300

What about console? Performance is horrific right now.

Wolfpaw

Performance>everything else always.

If a feature hurts performance just remove it please, not balance the two.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Imza wrote: »

Imza wrote: »

...
I also suspect that the only true solution is to ban add-ons....


maybe we should be thinking about that.....

With this statement I meant to draw everyone into the discussion of is it possible for ZoS to do SOME modifications to the the UI and for us THE CUSTOMER to do without add-ons...


Do you think it is possible?

Yup entirely possible just look at console player that play without them and yes pc can do the same

anitajoneb17_ESO

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Yup entirely possible just look at console player that play without them and yes pc can do the same

CAN =/= WANT.
Can I play ESO without addons ? Probably not in the same way I'm used to playing with addons.
Do I WANT to play without addons ? No no no, not even 5 minutes.

So I guess the answer is : no, it's not possible.

Elsonso

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Imza wrote: »

Imza wrote: »

...
I also suspect that the only true solution is to ban add-ons....


maybe we should be thinking about that.....

With this statement I meant to draw everyone into the discussion of is it possible for ZoS to do SOME modifications to the the UI and for us THE CUSTOMER to do without add-ons...


Do you think it is possible?

Yup entirely possible just look at console player that play without them and yes pc can do the same

This is not a realistic answer.

Dont_do_drugs

@Dark_Lord_Kuro

It ABSOLUTELY isnt a realistic answer. ESOs vanilla UI is lacking of so many simple things. Starting with with customizable map pins, mini map, notes function and so on. Instead of pointing on console and that people play there without any addons is not just realistic, it is naive. Because console players should point on the fact, that ZOS thinks, everything is done, if addon creators do so, while giving in so low amount of effort into improving ingame functionalities. Yeh, we have a guild search now, yeh ZOS improved the trade guild ui, ZOS also brought test dummies (dps) and more numbers into the ui. But there is a hell of a lot more work for ZOS to do on that parts.

This trading system is lovely and nice, but it also has a lot of haters, people complaining about having to visit every store, people complaining about having no abilitiy of comparing prices and so on and in the end bcs of these things wanting an auction house. Those addons were build with friendly help of ZOS by enabling it due to API functions and those addons are also a part of the reason, why trading on PC is so much more active, so more interesting to people, because casuals, newcomers and also just plain simple, everyone who doesnt want to give in too much time and effort, to get his items for realistic prices sold, is able to trade with them. Instead of pointing on the console and that its "working" without any addons, you should start to point on the fact, that you still have to play, missing a lot of qol functionalities.

If addons werent a thing in ESO, a lot of players would have left the game in the early time already bcs of the bad, minimalistic UI.

Grimm13

Bam_Bam wrote: »

Never saw any need for a guild finder. Seriously. It's not like guilds stand in every town advertising every 2 seconds

There is an advantage to those looking for a Guild and to guilds. Not everyone uses the forums and posts get buried very fast so using a forum is highly inefficient both for the guild & applicant. In game both guild advertiser and applicant would have to be in the same zone and at the same time to get a chance at a match.

Guild Finder makes the process highly efficient for both Guilds and applicants. Just takes a small amount of time to list your guild. Applicants can look at anytime to see listings that may interest them.

Previously I would spend 4-8 hours after a purge of inactives to bring my guild back to 495 to 500, I left room a lot of the times for members to ad those they had contact with. Purges were several times a week.
Now my listing goes active as soon as GF detects room for new members. Members can tell people list them as a referral on the app if there is not room to add them. I can do several purges a week, look for referrals in the app's then refill back to 500 members.On average there are 40 - 80 apps waiting to join but I have 5-10 openings. This at most 30mins of my time so I regained a large chunk of time that I can actually play the game.

To me GF is a win for all sides.

Wolfpaw

Grimm13 wrote: »

Bam_Bam wrote: »

Never saw any need for a guild finder. Seriously. It's not like guilds stand in every town advertising every 2 seconds

There is an advantage to those looking for a Guild and to guilds. Not everyone uses the forums and posts get buried very fast so using a forum is highly inefficient both for the guild & applicant. In game both guild advertiser and applicant would have to be in the same zone and at the same time to get a chance at a match.

Guild Finder makes the process highly efficient for both Guilds and applicants. Just takes a small amount of time to list your guild. Applicants can look at anytime to see listings that may interest them.

Previously I would spend 4-8 hours after a purge of inactives to bring my guild back to 495 to 500, I left room a lot of the times for members to ad those they had contact with. Purges were several times a week.
Now my listing goes active as soon as GF detects room for new members. Members can tell people list them as a referral on the app if there is not room to add them. I can do several purges a week, look for referrals in the app's then refill back to 500 members.On average there are 40 - 80 apps waiting to join but I have 5-10 openings. This at most 30mins of my time so I regained a large chunk of time that I can actually play the game.

To me GF is a win for all sides.

I can understand, but performance should always be priority.

& 500 player guild...add that to how many guilds a player can join?...is a waste. Every guild I have seen always has the same 20-30 active social in-crowd group making the guild what it's. Everyone else is usually just there for the free use of stuff in guild hall (dummy, transmute, etc...) & to make use of the horrid trade system ESO has to offer.

Make one global trade system, reduce guilds a player can join to one or two, reduce the amount of players in a guild (with a global trade system players would drop these 500 player guilds & waste of space/game performance trade guilds anyhow), & watch performance jump.

This system I mention above has worked across mmo's for a reason, don't need to reinvent the wheel or add fluff like guild finder/traders...

One of the biggest issues in this game is guild traders, it's a garbage system that has its tentacles in too many systems of the game.

girlpoison

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Yup entirely possible just look at console player that play without them and yes pc can do the same

There is a reason I barely broke 40 hours of gameplay for ESO on Xbox yet have over 3700 hours logged on PC.

Bevik

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Grimm13 wrote: »

Bam_Bam wrote: »

Never saw any need for a guild finder. Seriously. It's not like guilds stand in every town advertising every 2 seconds

There is an advantage to those looking for a Guild and to guilds. Not everyone uses the forums and posts get buried very fast so using a forum is highly inefficient both for the guild & applicant. In game both guild advertiser and applicant would have to be in the same zone and at the same time to get a chance at a match.

Guild Finder makes the process highly efficient for both Guilds and applicants. Just takes a small amount of time to list your guild. Applicants can look at anytime to see listings that may interest them.

Previously I would spend 4-8 hours after a purge of inactives to bring my guild back to 495 to 500, I left room a lot of the times for members to ad those they had contact with. Purges were several times a week.
Now my listing goes active as soon as GF detects room for new members. Members can tell people list them as a referral on the app if there is not room to add them. I can do several purges a week, look for referrals in the app's then refill back to 500 members.On average there are 40 - 80 apps waiting to join but I have 5-10 openings. This at most 30mins of my time so I regained a large chunk of time that I can actually play the game.

To me GF is a win for all sides.

I can understand, but performance should always be priority.

& 500 player guild...add that to how many guilds a player can join?...is a waste. Every guild I have seen always has the same 20-30 active social in-crowd group making the guild what it's. Everyone else is usually just there for the free use of stuff in guild hall (dummy, transmute, etc...) & to make use of the horrid trade system ESO has to offer.

Make one global trade system, reduce guilds a player can join to one or two, reduce the amount of players in a guild (with a global trade system players would drop these 500 player guilds & waste of space/game performance trade guilds anyhow), & watch performance jump.

This system I mention above has worked across mmo's for a reason, don't need to reinvent the wheel or add fluff like guild finder/traders...

One of the biggest issues in this game is guild traders, it's a garbage system that has its tentacles in too many systems of the game.

Agree. Most ridiculous system I've ever seen in a video game. Check X amount of guild traders and millions of varieties of items for different prices it's just a joke. Put 1 damn global AH NPC to each major town and deal with it. This should solve a lot of problem itself. If they can't see this then ESO is just going to get worse. Every content they add just make the game less playable.

Dont_do_drugs

yeh and a global auction house where people pull all item infos from server for complete megaserver and listings in that auction house is totally THE solution to all server issues. you guys got it completely right, supersmart.

Wolfpaw

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

yeh and a global auction house where people pull all item infos from server for complete megaserver and listings in that auction house is totally THE solution to all server issues. you guys got it completely right, supersmart.

Compared to 200+ guild traders, 60+ areas, changing weekly, guild store, & addons, yes we're right.

To all server issues, c'mon nobody said that.

No need to remove npc's as you wouldn't want everyone stacking on one npc to sell/buy. No need for an auction style global trade, simple trade system that we have; list an item for b/o price.

Dont_do_drugs

Compared to 200+ guild traders, 60+ areas, changing weekly, guild store, & addons, yes we're right.

this is not how requesting from server works. the trader interface change two updates ago, where people pull a lot more item data from server for only one simple guild store instead of one global auction house already had severe impact on the server performance, what do you think happens if people start crawling items in a GLOBAL auction house and try to use text-search there instead of a simple small database of only 500 people listing within one small store. people were making jokes about text search (because the server has to search and give info about much more items than before) in a guild store 2 years ago expecting it to be problematic to the ig performance.

Wolfpaw

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Compared to 200+ guild traders, 60+ areas, changing weekly, guild store, & addons, yes we're right.

this is not how requesting from server works. the trader interface change two updates ago, where people pull a lot more item data from server for only one simple guild store instead of one global auction house already had severe impact on the server performance, what do you think happens if people start crawling items in a GLOBAL auction house and try to use text-search there instead of a simple small database of only 500 people listing within one small store. people were making jokes about text search (because the server has to search and give info about much more items than before) in a guild store 2 years ago expecting it to be problematic to the ig performance.

I forgot ESO is a special snowflake built with pixy stixs and fairy dust where information is carried by unionised leprechauns riding unicorns on a information rainbow...gg if implementing a trade system that has worked for 10years+ of mmo play can make this game worse...take it to the desert and bury it.

Joking aside,

Sounds like you know your eso tech as well as ZOS. I will sit back and watch it continue to get better.

Shantu

I love playing ESO and sincerely hope performance issues can get resolved. That being said, an influx of new/old users + new content + new features = degraded performance is really something a development team should have seen coming.

sylviermoone

Running a large, successful guild takes a lot of work, even WITH the help of add-ons. It's a minimum of 20 hours a week of tedious record keeping and accounting, spreadsheeting, putting events together for your guildmates, running raffles, dealing with trader flip, etc, etc, etc. We use add-ons to help because the game does not give us the functionality we need to maintain active guilds.

This bullcrap adds several hours weekly to what is already a tedious and thankless job and is enough to make me seriously consider if this is really how I want to spend my time each and every week. I can think of several other, less frustrating ways to spend my free time.

RANKK7

@ZOS_RichLambert I don't know if you realize in what state this game would be if a bunch of users didn't create some essential addons, it's a rethorical question, I'm pretty sure you know, we all know.

What quality of life improvements you provided to this game in 5 years? Because I look at addons and then I look at what the base game offers and you know what can be seen? A game lacking a lot of basic features, hence it seems this studio slept in serenity thinking resources could have been spared because there are users providing what you developers aren't providing.

Just yesterday a user posted a terrific spreadsheet for housing plans costed who knows how many hours because some platforms can't use addons, and all I have contemplated once again is how poor is what you provide, not even a complete compendium like Furniture Catalogue provides.

I often think what would have happened if no one would have released, for example, a Minimap or Harvest Map, or in case for some reason those addons would be disabled tomorrow because "problems".

Now I find myself logging in game very less since this crap happened with sales history and I'm not alone in this. And all the poorness of what is provided in terms of quality of life shows up again.

You worked on the trading interface recently, it's unbelievable that's what you released after 5 years, not even a "known/unknown" filter for motifs or plans, just another terrific example.

Are you aware how many motifs or plans are in game now?


So, the party is over, when the game appears in its real condition since some addons aren't working.

I don't know how you will reinstate a working complete sales history or if you'll ever be able to do so. I just know right know the kind of quality you provide and it seems pretty obvious part of the success of this game on pc platform is because of addons, it would be unplayable otherwise, for me and for many others players.

You may want to re-think at @ZOS your definition of "new content" and start working seriously to provide in game what the most popular addons provide at this point, or get a move on to make them work flawlessly as before, ASAP.

Patience for many is running short, with all the love one could have for TES world and this game.

sylviermoone wrote: »

Running a large, successful guild takes a lot of work, even WITH the help of add-ons. It's a minimum of 20 hours a week of tedious record keeping and accounting, spreadsheeting, putting events together for your guildmates, running raffles, dealing with trader flip, etc, etc, etc. We use add-ons to help because the game does not give us the functionality we need to maintain active guilds.

This bullcrap adds several hours weekly to what is already a tedious and thankless job and is enough to make me seriously consider if this is really how I want to spend my time each and every week. I can think of several other, less frustrating ways to spend my free time.

You are not alone. Thank you btw for all the great work on MM, in this situation where your addon is severely crippled this game is showing its very condition and what truly it's been provided in terms of quality of life for trading.
I really hope they'll get a move on to solve this and for good!

JezzaAKTT

sylviermoone wrote: »

Running a large, successful guild takes a lot of work, even WITH the help of add-ons. It's a minimum of 20 hours a week of tedious record keeping and accounting, spreadsheeting, putting events together for your guildmates, running raffles, dealing with trader flip, etc, etc, etc. We use add-ons to help because the game does not give us the functionality we need to maintain active guilds.

This bullcrap adds several hours weekly to what is already a tedious and thankless job and is enough to make me seriously consider if this is really how I want to spend my time each and every week. I can think of several other, less frustrating ways to spend my free time.

I also run a guild and feel exactly the same. If you can't enable our add-ons then at least give us some tools in game to replace them.

Mitrenga

It has been 5 years.
If ZoS wanted to solve our problems, they would have done it by now.
On top of all that, new problems introduced with each update.
It's either the game engine is living its last couple years or the devs simply do not care.
I believe it's a combination of the both.

Delparis

Please report the bugs and issues found under bug reports section.
That way everyone can have a look on them and Zenimax will be obliged to fix them.