The "Balance" of Mag Sorcs

Lord-Otto

How much regen have you guys tested?

PhoenixGrey

Lord-Otto wrote: »

How much regen have you guys tested?

I haven't tested on pts but here's what I see on live

I do not have a masters staff so I run bright throat, necro and chudan on my breton with around 1.9k regen and a 49k mag pool.

If I replace chudan with engine guardian I can sustain with one shield but risk getting one shot through hardened ward.

Cage is an expensive skill and the only reason why the setup works is due to harness and dark conversion while maintaining the damage

The nerf to hardened ward means getting more sustain and less damage
So good luck killing anything with half a brain and also good luck surviving any burst with tiny shields if you intend to use streak as stun. Some random hot from a trash PVE weapon ain't gonna save your ass.
I do hope I m wrong about this though

Lord-Otto

Hm... Sustain has always been meh on sorc. You could drop the pet and Necro for Lich next patch. With a Willpower instead of Master staff, you could compensate the mag loss a bit. Or the new monster set with the regen, could also help.
Hm... Certainly is a complicated patch we have here...

PhoenixGrey

You will lose a lot of damage that way and the tank meta aint going nowhere

stritzi

bardx86 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

Well since they removed the only real counter that provided some pressure in a 1v1 (shieldbreaker) I just ignore Sorcs and don't even attempt a 1v1 anymore.

The only real chance against them is either a lucky CC just as one of their multiple shields times out and then hope your burst is enough against remaining shields before they streak away or a swarm them with the hope that you have some players with amazing speed or a Sorc to keep pace with them as they streak away.

Sorcs are ESO's chosen god class on EZ mode.

if it wouldve been op god mode you wouldve been writing that sorc kills you in one second and you cant do anything with it. if you cant kill sorc and sorc cant kill you it means that in the formed situation you are equal. if being equal to you is na op god mode then theris nothing more to say here.

While I wouldn't call Sorcs "god mode" or anything, the fact that two players fail to kill each other doesn't actually make them equal. If one player is far more mobile than the other, they're clearly "better" since they'll have two options that their opponent doesn't:
1) Hang around on the periphery and look for an opportunity to attack again when they have the advantage.
2) Keep resetting the fight and attacking again, waiting for their opponent to eventually make a mistake.

This sort of thing was pretty regular with Stam builds vs Magicka builds back during the speedster days. If it became apparent that they weren't going to kill my non-mobile Magicka setup without some risk of their own death, they'd Dodge Roll once or twice, sprint for a couple seconds, and hide around LOS waiting for their next opportunity. And since I couldn't escape them if the tables were turned the other way, they had the clear advantage.

It's that way for me now against Magicka Sorcerers, and it's certainly annoying (though should be less so once Master Staff Reach spam goes away), but at least it's not Mag Sorcs and basically every Stam build.

So it sounds like that the Sorcs damage needs to be buffed as they couldn't kill a non mobile build.

Dudeeee, just dudeee, why are you like this

Lokey0024

I sat under oils last night during a siege and just spammed Harness magicka. Because I'm running BtB and Crafty I had a net income of magicka return off of the ability from the DoT. This was the only issue, sorcs can build for exceptional SP and Magicka without sacrifice for regen.

Outlasting a Sorc isn't feasible on live because of this, be it a very specific build. Stam sap wont work because mobility (skill play). I fought quite a few good players and at best they could turtle up and survive the magicka chainsaw weave (did you know if you get stuck in the heavy attack charge bug you can rapid fire light attacks, like 6 that hit as soon as the heavy goes!) but I had committed very little resource while they are using every heal/mend/vitality ability they could just to survive. Was fun, must admit. I think this causes alot of bar bloat, no room for gap closers if you have to use 5 abilities just not to get nuked.

bardx86

Lokey0024 wrote: »

I sat under oils last night during a siege and just spammed Harness magicka. Because I'm running BtB and Crafty I had a net income of magicka return off of the ability from the DoT. This was the only issue, sorcs can build for exceptional SP and Magicka without sacrifice for regen.

Outlasting a Sorc isn't feasible on live because of this, be it a very specific build. Stam sap wont work because mobility (skill play). I fought quite a few good players and at best they could turtle up and survive the magicka chainsaw weave but I had committed very little resource while they are using every heal/mend/vitality ability they could just to survive. Was fun, must admit. I think this causes alot of bar bloat, no room for gap closers if you have to use 5 abilities just not to get nuked.

Sound like CP? BG's is a different deal, sustain is an issue.

Lokey0024

bardx86 wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

I sat under oils last night during a siege and just spammed Harness magicka. Because I'm running BtB and Crafty I had a net income of magicka return off of the ability from the DoT. This was the only issue, sorcs can build for exceptional SP and Magicka without sacrifice for regen.

Outlasting a Sorc isn't feasible on live because of this, be it a very specific build. Stam sap wont work because mobility (skill play). I fought quite a few good players and at best they could turtle up and survive the magicka chainsaw weave but I had committed very little resource while they are using every heal/mend/vitality ability they could just to survive. Was fun, must admit. I think this causes alot of bar bloat, no room for gap closers if you have to use 5 abilities just not to get nuked.

Sound like CP? BG's is a different deal, sustain is an issue.

I agree. Tried doing BGs using the same tactic and it didn't work so good. To many LoS obstacles and all the dam pets made targeting a nightmare as well. Might switch it up

Derra

Koensol wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Hmph. Warden, both specs, were INCREDIBLY overpowered when Morrowind launched. No projectiles could harm them, no dodge escaped them. And Shalks brought a world of pain. If you're saying magsorc beat magden back then, wow.
Stamsorcs are known to be bad. They had two patches after Hurricane was created, and then got nuked by the nerfhammer to this day. Comparing that to a magsorc isn't a fair comparison.
And yes, magsorcs had their bad times. Before CP got changed in Thieves Guild, although every magicka spec suffered from that. Dark Brotherhood made us near extinct in Cyrodiil. One Tamriel proc meta was so much better for stamina, it wasn't funny. And CwC, while not a leg-breaking patch, did make things harder with the Frag nerf. I agree sorcs have been quite steady since Homestead, especially among magicka classes, but there were some rough times. Don't ignore that because it fits a narrative!

I certainly wouldn't say that Magicka Warden was overpowered in the early days...especially given how rare we/they were. Having played both Magicka Warden and Magicka Sorcerer during that time, I'd say that Sorcs had better killing power against everything that wasn't a dodge roll spammer (getting a little hate-tell nostalgia now...), and it was a pretty significant gap at that. Sure, Warden had some good damage, and I could actually often get more total damage done numbers on Warden than I could on Sorc...but Sorc's burst and ability to get (and secure) kills was significantly better.

And I would absolutely dispute the assertion that Stam Sorcs are bad. I'm not saying they're the #1 most overpowered thing in the game, but they're most certainly not "bad." For the past several years, pretty much any Stamina class has been at least decent. Not necessarily all balanced against each other, mind you, but none have been down where Magicka Necromancer is right now...or even close to that bad IMO.

Lest anyone get the wrong idea - I'm not calling for giant nerfs to Mag Sorcs, and in fact I think the shield changes for 5.1 are probably a bit much, especially for no-CP. But any Sorc who thinks they aren't the overall top dog for offensive Magicka builds in PvP needs to try out some other classes.

Edit: Forgot to mention that I've been saying Shimmering Shield could use some nerfs, right from the beginning of Morrowind. It, like the previous version of DK Wings, is too much of a hard counter to any build that's forced to rely on projectiles for a significant amount of their damage, while being totally ignorable for some other setups. Things were worse when it was cheap enough, and had enough magicka return, that Stam Wardens were able to spam it non-stop, but I still wouldn't mind seeing some changes.

I think magicka warden was strong at launch and not necessarily OP. You have to realize its a non mobile magicka class which is an sitting duck in the battlefield like a magplar making them both free AP right now

Magplar free AP right now?..... That comment right there makes me seriously question how much you actually PvP.... Just stop.

I dare you to play a magplar against actual top players and prove that comment wrong. At least in high mmr bgs(PC NA) there's very few people left playing magplars, and they're all struggling. In open world nobody wants magplars because they don't have mobility. Even for healing, both magdens and magblades are better healers right now.

Magplars are good for 1v1 and pug stomping, the moment you go against a good player they all know you're a 1 trick pony. Timing your Purifying Light explosion with Crescent is pretty much the only way you have of killing someone, the rest of your abilities do little to do dmg. To top it off, they're nerfing barrage by like 30%. Don't even mention the Eclipse change, we all know that's not going live.

On PC EU top MMR mag DMGplar is considered one of the strongest and most played setups currently. Premade and solo Q. And hell yeah, it is freaking strong. From what I see on streams PC NA tends to just lack players willing to invest time into magicka gameplay, except msorc. They all nerd on their stamina chars (Im such a stronk warrior!) for years now. And when they play magicka its either magsorc or pure healbot.

Similar for Mag NB, its considered one of the stronger BG setups here on PC EU, for both healing and damage, for about 2 patches now. I don't see any Mag NBs on NA streams, tho.

Agreed on magplar, but magblade?? No. I have played BGs a lot the last year and you rarely see magblade dd's on EU PC. The one that I do see frequently in high MMR, Heresya, is simply an insanely good player who has mastered the class. But even he cheeses on magblade in BGs, using zaan and caluurion. Magblade has some good tools, and I suppose in the right group can be BiS. But it lacks the consistent AoE that magplar and magdens bring. Especially in solo queue without a lot of grouphealing magblade struggles.

Healblade I agree. I have played healblade for a long time now and it has been insanely strong ever since the introduction of healthy offering, but especially now that they got snare and root immunity. This patch they seem to have exploded in quantity though. Like suddenly people started to realize how strong magblade healer actually is. Quite funny to see how long it took people to break out of the "hurr duurrr templar or warden healer only hurr hurr" mentality.

HEY! Didn't you wanna leave?
SHOOO!!!
\(>~<)/
Just kidding. Are you happy with the changes?

Haha, I promise I'm done as far as sorc topic goes Enough salt has been spilt in this thread.

Overall I really like the patch, but I can't say for sure how it will all turn out. I mean, some classes got their abilities nerfed, sorc one of them. But on the other end, resto received some massive changes and there's no telling yet how that will influence overall class balance. I like how streak got buffed in accordance to the shield nerfs though. It puts sorc more into the ranged kiter position, while reducing their ability to facetank people.

The shield cost change + the massive buff to singletarget dots makes magsorc suffer really hard on pts. I don´t think it´s vaible for actual fighting and disagree with the sentiment of being a pure kiting (running away) class.

The face tanking potential was largely due to harness fueled sustain. Yet the sorc builds only utilizing hardened on pts got hit the hardest.
And i can´t think of anyone that would label a sorc only using hardened ward as op.

Then you also have the issue of entirely useless skills on sorc again - which just got reset to pre summerset conditions.

The resto changes seem good - but the smarthealing function of a singletarget hot (rr) makes it really iffy to use.
Also sorc lacks any healing synergies compared to other classes and their main class sustained healing got nerfed passively by the massive buffs to entropy (why would you slot surge compared to entropy now - this is especially ironic as one or multipe dots would be the tool needed to make surge good - yet it gets made redundant by one of them).

We had overperforming parts on sorc - pets and shieldstacking.
We got a nerf to those and then some nerfs on top and buffs to just about everything else (dots and hots both not present in the sorc toolkit nor synergising with the class) - so comparatively sorc just isn´t in a good spot on pts.

Koensol

Derra wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Hmph. Warden, both specs, were INCREDIBLY overpowered when Morrowind launched. No projectiles could harm them, no dodge escaped them. And Shalks brought a world of pain. If you're saying magsorc beat magden back then, wow.
Stamsorcs are known to be bad. They had two patches after Hurricane was created, and then got nuked by the nerfhammer to this day. Comparing that to a magsorc isn't a fair comparison.
And yes, magsorcs had their bad times. Before CP got changed in Thieves Guild, although every magicka spec suffered from that. Dark Brotherhood made us near extinct in Cyrodiil. One Tamriel proc meta was so much better for stamina, it wasn't funny. And CwC, while not a leg-breaking patch, did make things harder with the Frag nerf. I agree sorcs have been quite steady since Homestead, especially among magicka classes, but there were some rough times. Don't ignore that because it fits a narrative!

I certainly wouldn't say that Magicka Warden was overpowered in the early days...especially given how rare we/they were. Having played both Magicka Warden and Magicka Sorcerer during that time, I'd say that Sorcs had better killing power against everything that wasn't a dodge roll spammer (getting a little hate-tell nostalgia now...), and it was a pretty significant gap at that. Sure, Warden had some good damage, and I could actually often get more total damage done numbers on Warden than I could on Sorc...but Sorc's burst and ability to get (and secure) kills was significantly better.

And I would absolutely dispute the assertion that Stam Sorcs are bad. I'm not saying they're the #1 most overpowered thing in the game, but they're most certainly not "bad." For the past several years, pretty much any Stamina class has been at least decent. Not necessarily all balanced against each other, mind you, but none have been down where Magicka Necromancer is right now...or even close to that bad IMO.

Lest anyone get the wrong idea - I'm not calling for giant nerfs to Mag Sorcs, and in fact I think the shield changes for 5.1 are probably a bit much, especially for no-CP. But any Sorc who thinks they aren't the overall top dog for offensive Magicka builds in PvP needs to try out some other classes.

Edit: Forgot to mention that I've been saying Shimmering Shield could use some nerfs, right from the beginning of Morrowind. It, like the previous version of DK Wings, is too much of a hard counter to any build that's forced to rely on projectiles for a significant amount of their damage, while being totally ignorable for some other setups. Things were worse when it was cheap enough, and had enough magicka return, that Stam Wardens were able to spam it non-stop, but I still wouldn't mind seeing some changes.

I think magicka warden was strong at launch and not necessarily OP. You have to realize its a non mobile magicka class which is an sitting duck in the battlefield like a magplar making them both free AP right now

Magplar free AP right now?..... That comment right there makes me seriously question how much you actually PvP.... Just stop.

I dare you to play a magplar against actual top players and prove that comment wrong. At least in high mmr bgs(PC NA) there's very few people left playing magplars, and they're all struggling. In open world nobody wants magplars because they don't have mobility. Even for healing, both magdens and magblades are better healers right now.

Magplars are good for 1v1 and pug stomping, the moment you go against a good player they all know you're a 1 trick pony. Timing your Purifying Light explosion with Crescent is pretty much the only way you have of killing someone, the rest of your abilities do little to do dmg. To top it off, they're nerfing barrage by like 30%. Don't even mention the Eclipse change, we all know that's not going live.

On PC EU top MMR mag DMGplar is considered one of the strongest and most played setups currently. Premade and solo Q. And hell yeah, it is freaking strong. From what I see on streams PC NA tends to just lack players willing to invest time into magicka gameplay, except msorc. They all nerd on their stamina chars (Im such a stronk warrior!) for years now. And when they play magicka its either magsorc or pure healbot.

Similar for Mag NB, its considered one of the stronger BG setups here on PC EU, for both healing and damage, for about 2 patches now. I don't see any Mag NBs on NA streams, tho.

Agreed on magplar, but magblade?? No. I have played BGs a lot the last year and you rarely see magblade dd's on EU PC. The one that I do see frequently in high MMR, Heresya, is simply an insanely good player who has mastered the class. But even he cheeses on magblade in BGs, using zaan and caluurion. Magblade has some good tools, and I suppose in the right group can be BiS. But it lacks the consistent AoE that magplar and magdens bring. Especially in solo queue without a lot of grouphealing magblade struggles.

Healblade I agree. I have played healblade for a long time now and it has been insanely strong ever since the introduction of healthy offering, but especially now that they got snare and root immunity. This patch they seem to have exploded in quantity though. Like suddenly people started to realize how strong magblade healer actually is. Quite funny to see how long it took people to break out of the "hurr duurrr templar or warden healer only hurr hurr" mentality.

HEY! Didn't you wanna leave?
SHOOO!!!
\(>~<)/
Just kidding. Are you happy with the changes?

Haha, I promise I'm done as far as sorc topic goes Enough salt has been spilt in this thread.

Overall I really like the patch, but I can't say for sure how it will all turn out. I mean, some classes got their abilities nerfed, sorc one of them. But on the other end, resto received some massive changes and there's no telling yet how that will influence overall class balance. I like how streak got buffed in accordance to the shield nerfs though. It puts sorc more into the ranged kiter position, while reducing their ability to facetank people.

The shield cost change + the massive buff to singletarget dots makes magsorc suffer really hard on pts. I don´t think it´s vaible for actual fighting and disagree with the sentiment of being a pure kiting (running away) class.

The face tanking potential was largely due to harness fueled sustain. Yet the sorc builds only utilizing hardened on pts got hit the hardest.
And i can´t think of anyone that would label a sorc only using hardened ward as op.

Then you also have the issue of entirely useless skills on sorc again - which just got reset to pre summerset conditions.

The resto changes seem good - but the smarthealing function of a singletarget hot (rr) makes it really iffy to use.
Also sorc lacks any healing synergies compared to other classes and their main class sustained healing got nerfed passively by the massive buffs to entropy (why would you slot surge compared to entropy now - this is especially ironic as one or multipe dots would be the tool needed to make surge good - yet it gets made redundant by one of them).

We had overperforming parts on sorc - pets and shieldstacking.
We got a nerf to those and then some nerfs on top and buffs to just about everything else (dots and hots both not present in the sorc toolkit nor synergising with the class) - so comparatively sorc just isn´t in a good spot on pts.

Fair enough, that sounds logical. I would love for magsorc to get some sort of redesign to many of its skills, because I hate the way it currently operates offensively. It's even more potent at Xv1 than templar (multiple curses stacked into execute with constant braindead zapping of pets), which is a nightmare with the amount of them running around on live. Especially as a melee character without a gapcloser. If that is the rationale for ZOS to not give sorcs a non pet source of dot pressure, by all means change it.

Oh and btw, I thought the rapid regen morph was now only a selfheal?

Derra

Koensol wrote: »

Fair enough, that sounds logical. I would love for magsorc to get some sort of redesign to many of its skills, because I hate the way it currently operates offensively. It's even more potent at Xv1 than templar (multiple curses stacked into execute with constant braindead zapping of pets), which is a nightmare with the amount of them running around on live. Especially as a melee character without a gapcloser. If that is the rationale for ZOS to not give sorcs a non pet source of dot pressure, by all means change it.

Oh and btw, I thought the rapid regen morph was now only a selfheal?

Sadly RR and Mutagen both retain their smartheal functionality 360° around the player with 22m range. They´re good and comparable in duels to vigor.
My personal opinion is that if these abilities make it live in their current state it will cause a lot of grief amongst magica players trying to utilize them.

On sorc - i don´t even know if dots are the way to go. I think the sorc toolkit isn´t neccessarily bad on pts. It´s just too expensive overall.
The hardened change + the change to how cost reduction is calculated (no longer additive) resulted in ~20 to25k more magica drain per minute for me personally (and yes i really mean 20000 magica drained per minute meaning i need 670 more statwindow rec to compensate comparing live to pts).

I play 2 dmg sets + jewelry all dmg enchanted on my dk on pts.
On sorc i play 2 sustain sets all regen enchanted and still have sustain issues compared to dk.
It just feels completely off on sorc.

Sureshawt

oxygen_thief wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

I used to have good fights with Sorcs 1v1 with shieldbreaker.

ive been playing sorc since 2016. im an average player at the best but i won every 1v1 encounter were shield breaker was used because this particular set was used by total noobs only. its proc sound was like a mesage "im a free frag and iam here"

Well I guess you didn't fight the kind of Sorcs I fought that had at least some decent healing. The ones I fought were far from a free frag. But yeah I had the occasional easy kill on a noob Sorc that initially didn't realize what was happening and just expected constant shield stacking to save them like it does from every other attack in the game.

BahometZ

Is this a 30 page nerf sorc thread?

PhoenixGrey

BahometZ wrote: »

Is this a 30 page nerf sorc thread?

We have 3 more PTS revisions. The potatoes are not done yet

heng14rwb17_ESO

GO L2P OR GO CRY !!!

Seraphayel

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

BahometZ wrote: »

Is this a 30 page nerf sorc thread?

We have 3 more PTS revisions. The potatoes are not done yet

We basically have the major revision next week and then the de facto release version. There isn’t much to come after next weeks PTS update.

stritzi

Derra wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Fair enough, that sounds logical. I would love for magsorc to get some sort of redesign to many of its skills, because I hate the way it currently operates offensively. It's even more potent at Xv1 than templar (multiple curses stacked into execute with constant braindead zapping of pets), which is a nightmare with the amount of them running around on live. Especially as a melee character without a gapcloser. If that is the rationale for ZOS to not give sorcs a non pet source of dot pressure, by all means change it.

Oh and btw, I thought the rapid regen morph was now only a selfheal?

Sadly RR and Mutagen both retain their smartheal functionality 360° around the player with 22m range. They´re good and comparable in duels to vigor.
My personal opinion is that if these abilities make it live in their current state it will cause a lot of grief amongst magica players trying to utilize them.

On sorc - i don´t even know if dots are the way to go. I think the sorc toolkit isn´t neccessarily bad on pts. It´s just too expensive overall.
The hardened change + the change to how cost reduction is calculated (no longer additive) resulted in ~20 to25k more magica drain per minute for me personally (and yes i really mean 20000 magica drained per minute meaning i need 670 more statwindow rec to compensate comparing live to pts).

I play 2 dmg sets + jewelry all dmg enchanted on my dk on pts.
On sorc i play 2 sustain sets all regen enchanted and still have sustain issues compared to dk.
It just feels completely off on sorc.

Did you try the holy trinity? Sustain, dmg, defense? defensive sets add some passive sustain and open up gameplay options due the added tankyness. Imo in some setups this could help alot.

Derra

stritzi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Fair enough, that sounds logical. I would love for magsorc to get some sort of redesign to many of its skills, because I hate the way it currently operates offensively. It's even more potent at Xv1 than templar (multiple curses stacked into execute with constant braindead zapping of pets), which is a nightmare with the amount of them running around on live. Especially as a melee character without a gapcloser. If that is the rationale for ZOS to not give sorcs a non pet source of dot pressure, by all means change it.

Oh and btw, I thought the rapid regen morph was now only a selfheal?

Sadly RR and Mutagen both retain their smartheal functionality 360° around the player with 22m range. They´re good and comparable in duels to vigor.
My personal opinion is that if these abilities make it live in their current state it will cause a lot of grief amongst magica players trying to utilize them.

On sorc - i don´t even know if dots are the way to go. I think the sorc toolkit isn´t neccessarily bad on pts. It´s just too expensive overall.
The hardened change + the change to how cost reduction is calculated (no longer additive) resulted in ~20 to25k more magica drain per minute for me personally (and yes i really mean 20000 magica drained per minute meaning i need 670 more statwindow rec to compensate comparing live to pts).

I play 2 dmg sets + jewelry all dmg enchanted on my dk on pts.
On sorc i play 2 sustain sets all regen enchanted and still have sustain issues compared to dk.
It just feels completely off on sorc.

Did you try the holy trinity? Sustain, dmg, defense? defensive sets add some passive sustain and open up gameplay options due the added tankyness. Imo in some setups this could help alot.

One sustain set is not enough on pts.
Apart from that you have 4 parts that you need on sorc due to how some of it´s abilities work
Sorc needs magica, defense, sustain, damage - with magica being a stat for both (all three others on live with harness).

Most live holy trinity setups for light armor mag used pirate from my experience. Which is no longer an option on pts.
We can look at something like grundwulf alfiq lich willpower - which tries to get a little bit of everything but definetly lacks on the defense side of things (because sorc needs too much sustain).
If you replace lich + willpower with sth like impreg or swift you will have sufficient defense but will simply run out of magica or have absolutely no dmg (depending on jewelry enchants).

It´s like running in circles. Sorc sustain got absolutely destroyed on pts due to changes to it´s class defense being held up to standards heavily deviating from the every day use.

Every mag class sustains about the same or slightly weaker on pts with 5000 to 7500 more mag drain per minute. Some classes (templar) got compensated in the skill cost department or with buffs to expensive skills.
DK sustain passive got flatout buffed. Warden, necro and NB are hit the worst after sorc.
Butin comparison sorc mag drain increased by 20000 to 25000 per minute - it´s absolutely out of proportion to the sustain cuts that other classes see and from my perspective simply not justifiable from sorc sustain on live if we exclude harness magica (which was rightfully nerfed).

Lord-Otto

Derra wrote: »

stritzi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Fair enough, that sounds logical. I would love for magsorc to get some sort of redesign to many of its skills, because I hate the way it currently operates offensively. It's even more potent at Xv1 than templar (multiple curses stacked into execute with constant braindead zapping of pets), which is a nightmare with the amount of them running around on live. Especially as a melee character without a gapcloser. If that is the rationale for ZOS to not give sorcs a non pet source of dot pressure, by all means change it.

Oh and btw, I thought the rapid regen morph was now only a selfheal?

Sadly RR and Mutagen both retain their smartheal functionality 360° around the player with 22m range. They´re good and comparable in duels to vigor.
My personal opinion is that if these abilities make it live in their current state it will cause a lot of grief amongst magica players trying to utilize them.

On sorc - i don´t even know if dots are the way to go. I think the sorc toolkit isn´t neccessarily bad on pts. It´s just too expensive overall.
The hardened change + the change to how cost reduction is calculated (no longer additive) resulted in ~20 to25k more magica drain per minute for me personally (and yes i really mean 20000 magica drained per minute meaning i need 670 more statwindow rec to compensate comparing live to pts).

I play 2 dmg sets + jewelry all dmg enchanted on my dk on pts.
On sorc i play 2 sustain sets all regen enchanted and still have sustain issues compared to dk.
It just feels completely off on sorc.

Did you try the holy trinity? Sustain, dmg, defense? defensive sets add some passive sustain and open up gameplay options due the added tankyness. Imo in some setups this could help alot.

One sustain set is not enough on pts.
Apart from that you have 4 parts that you need on sorc due to how some of it´s abilities work
Sorc needs magica, defense, sustain, damage - with magica being a stat for both (all three others on live with harness).

Most live holy trinity setups for light armor mag used pirate from my experience. Which is no longer an option on pts.
We can look at something like grundwulf alfiq lich willpower - which tries to get a little bit of everything but definetly lacks on the defense side of things (because sorc needs too much sustain).
If you replace lich + willpower with sth like impreg or swift you will have sufficient defense but will simply run out of magica or have absolutely no dmg (depending on jewelry enchants).

It´s like running in circles. Sorc sustain got absolutely destroyed on pts due to changes to it´s class defense being held up to standards heavily deviating from the every day use.

Every mag class sustains about the same or slightly weaker on pts with 5000 to 7500 more mag drain per minute. Some classes (templar) got compensated in the skill cost department or with buffs to expensive skills.
DK sustain passive got flatout buffed. Warden, necro and NB are hit the worst after sorc.
Butin comparison sorc mag drain increased by 20000 to 25000 per minute - it´s absolutely out of proportion to the sustain cuts that other classes see and from my perspective simply not justifiable from sorc sustain on live if we exclude harness magica (which was rightfully nerfed).

Have you found a way to improve kiting with the Streak buff to possibly compensate for defenses?

Derra

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

stritzi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Fair enough, that sounds logical. I would love for magsorc to get some sort of redesign to many of its skills, because I hate the way it currently operates offensively. It's even more potent at Xv1 than templar (multiple curses stacked into execute with constant braindead zapping of pets), which is a nightmare with the amount of them running around on live. Especially as a melee character without a gapcloser. If that is the rationale for ZOS to not give sorcs a non pet source of dot pressure, by all means change it.

Oh and btw, I thought the rapid regen morph was now only a selfheal?

Sadly RR and Mutagen both retain their smartheal functionality 360° around the player with 22m range. They´re good and comparable in duels to vigor.
My personal opinion is that if these abilities make it live in their current state it will cause a lot of grief amongst magica players trying to utilize them.

On sorc - i don´t even know if dots are the way to go. I think the sorc toolkit isn´t neccessarily bad on pts. It´s just too expensive overall.
The hardened change + the change to how cost reduction is calculated (no longer additive) resulted in ~20 to25k more magica drain per minute for me personally (and yes i really mean 20000 magica drained per minute meaning i need 670 more statwindow rec to compensate comparing live to pts).

I play 2 dmg sets + jewelry all dmg enchanted on my dk on pts.
On sorc i play 2 sustain sets all regen enchanted and still have sustain issues compared to dk.
It just feels completely off on sorc.

Did you try the holy trinity? Sustain, dmg, defense? defensive sets add some passive sustain and open up gameplay options due the added tankyness. Imo in some setups this could help alot.

One sustain set is not enough on pts.
Apart from that you have 4 parts that you need on sorc due to how some of it´s abilities work
Sorc needs magica, defense, sustain, damage - with magica being a stat for both (all three others on live with harness).

Most live holy trinity setups for light armor mag used pirate from my experience. Which is no longer an option on pts.
We can look at something like grundwulf alfiq lich willpower - which tries to get a little bit of everything but definetly lacks on the defense side of things (because sorc needs too much sustain).
If you replace lich + willpower with sth like impreg or swift you will have sufficient defense but will simply run out of magica or have absolutely no dmg (depending on jewelry enchants).

It´s like running in circles. Sorc sustain got absolutely destroyed on pts due to changes to it´s class defense being held up to standards heavily deviating from the every day use.

Every mag class sustains about the same or slightly weaker on pts with 5000 to 7500 more mag drain per minute. Some classes (templar) got compensated in the skill cost department or with buffs to expensive skills.
DK sustain passive got flatout buffed. Warden, necro and NB are hit the worst after sorc.
Butin comparison sorc mag drain increased by 20000 to 25000 per minute - it´s absolutely out of proportion to the sustain cuts that other classes see and from my perspective simply not justifiable from sorc sustain on live if we exclude harness magica (which was rightfully nerfed).

Have you found a way to improve kiting with the Streak buff to possibly compensate for defenses?

Since streak now also has to be used offensively i´ve found it to be less of a buff and rather a neccessity. Sorc is essentially a melee dd with streak as a stun.

Lord-Otto

Derra wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

stritzi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Fair enough, that sounds logical. I would love for magsorc to get some sort of redesign to many of its skills, because I hate the way it currently operates offensively. It's even more potent at Xv1 than templar (multiple curses stacked into execute with constant braindead zapping of pets), which is a nightmare with the amount of them running around on live. Especially as a melee character without a gapcloser. If that is the rationale for ZOS to not give sorcs a non pet source of dot pressure, by all means change it.

Oh and btw, I thought the rapid regen morph was now only a selfheal?

Sadly RR and Mutagen both retain their smartheal functionality 360° around the player with 22m range. They´re good and comparable in duels to vigor.
My personal opinion is that if these abilities make it live in their current state it will cause a lot of grief amongst magica players trying to utilize them.

On sorc - i don´t even know if dots are the way to go. I think the sorc toolkit isn´t neccessarily bad on pts. It´s just too expensive overall.
The hardened change + the change to how cost reduction is calculated (no longer additive) resulted in ~20 to25k more magica drain per minute for me personally (and yes i really mean 20000 magica drained per minute meaning i need 670 more statwindow rec to compensate comparing live to pts).

I play 2 dmg sets + jewelry all dmg enchanted on my dk on pts.
On sorc i play 2 sustain sets all regen enchanted and still have sustain issues compared to dk.
It just feels completely off on sorc.

Did you try the holy trinity? Sustain, dmg, defense? defensive sets add some passive sustain and open up gameplay options due the added tankyness. Imo in some setups this could help alot.

One sustain set is not enough on pts.
Apart from that you have 4 parts that you need on sorc due to how some of it´s abilities work
Sorc needs magica, defense, sustain, damage - with magica being a stat for both (all three others on live with harness).

Most live holy trinity setups for light armor mag used pirate from my experience. Which is no longer an option on pts.
We can look at something like grundwulf alfiq lich willpower - which tries to get a little bit of everything but definetly lacks on the defense side of things (because sorc needs too much sustain).
If you replace lich + willpower with sth like impreg or swift you will have sufficient defense but will simply run out of magica or have absolutely no dmg (depending on jewelry enchants).

It´s like running in circles. Sorc sustain got absolutely destroyed on pts due to changes to it´s class defense being held up to standards heavily deviating from the every day use.

Every mag class sustains about the same or slightly weaker on pts with 5000 to 7500 more mag drain per minute. Some classes (templar) got compensated in the skill cost department or with buffs to expensive skills.
DK sustain passive got flatout buffed. Warden, necro and NB are hit the worst after sorc.
Butin comparison sorc mag drain increased by 20000 to 25000 per minute - it´s absolutely out of proportion to the sustain cuts that other classes see and from my perspective simply not justifiable from sorc sustain on live if we exclude harness magica (which was rightfully nerfed).

Have you found a way to improve kiting with the Streak buff to possibly compensate for defenses?

Since streak now also has to be used offensively i´ve found it to be less of a buff and rather a neccessity. Sorc is essentially a melee dd with streak as a stun.

Oh, god. That's totally why I picked this class...
>=C

stritzi

Derra wrote: »

One sustain set is not enough on pts.
Apart from that you have 4 parts that you need on sorc due to how some of it´s abilities work
Sorc needs magica, defense, sustain, damage - with magica being a stat for both (all three others on live with harness).

I have to disagree here, scrap the necessity of a magicka set, even more if you play CP PVP. This PTS changes direct sorcs in the right direction and wont hurt the class or its identity as a mobile burstmachine, as some people like to project.

Certainly there needs to be a little bit of adjustment, times of braindead shield spamming seem to be over, but in my opinion thats good, because the cheese chasers wont get their kills that easy.

Derra

stritzi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

One sustain set is not enough on pts.
Apart from that you have 4 parts that you need on sorc due to how some of it´s abilities work
Sorc needs magica, defense, sustain, damage - with magica being a stat for both (all three others on live with harness).

I have to disagree here, scrap the necessity of a magicka set, even more if you play CP PVP. This PTS changes direct sorcs in the right direction and wont hurt the class or its identity as a mobile burstmachine, as some people like to project.

Certainly there needs to be a little bit of adjustment, times of braindead shield spamming seem to be over, but in my opinion thats good, because the cheese chasers wont get their kills that easy.

The changes on pts do directly the opposite of what you´re claiming here.
They encourage to stack more magica to compensate for the lack in shield strengh - aswell as to get more bang for the buck due to the increased costs.
Then they also encourage to stack more shields to maximise shield efficiency. A build with one shield needs to recast it - that´s not magica efficient. A build with two shields alternates the cast to get max value out of every shield they cast.

Have you actually tested the class on pts?

stritzi

Derra wrote: »

stritzi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

One sustain set is not enough on pts.
Apart from that you have 4 parts that you need on sorc due to how some of it´s abilities work
Sorc needs magica, defense, sustain, damage - with magica being a stat for both (all three others on live with harness).

I have to disagree here, scrap the necessity of a magicka set, even more if you play CP PVP. This PTS changes direct sorcs in the right direction and wont hurt the class or its identity as a mobile burstmachine, as some people like to project.

Certainly there needs to be a little bit of adjustment, times of braindead shield spamming seem to be over, but in my opinion thats good, because the cheese chasers wont get their kills that easy.

The changes on pts do directly the opposite of what you´re claiming here.
They encourage to stack more magica to compensate for the lack in shield strengh - aswell as to get more bang for the buck due to the increased costs.
Then they also encourage to stack more shields to maximise shield efficiency. A build with one shield needs to recast it - that´s not magica efficient. A build with two shields alternates the cast to get max value out of every shield they cast.

Have you actually tested the class on pts?

I did test it, yes, but i am not focusing on getting maximum efficiency out of shields, because that leads to, what you already mentioned, sustain problems. What ZOS is trying to adress with the changes to shields, is that they should be used far more situational, than just be mindlessly spammed. The adjusted cost to streak is to compensate that loss of "tankyness" and directs into a far more reactive style of combat, rasing the skill ceiling of the class a bit.
Yes, sorcs survivability took a hit with that patch, and moved them more in line with other magicka classes.
After all, the current PTS sorc is probably still the strongest magicka specc, with mag templar close after.

WaltherCarraway

lol, status change on reflective scale is your tomorrow...

Emma_Overload

stritzi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

stritzi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

One sustain set is not enough on pts.
Apart from that you have 4 parts that you need on sorc due to how some of it´s abilities work
Sorc needs magica, defense, sustain, damage - with magica being a stat for both (all three others on live with harness).

I have to disagree here, scrap the necessity of a magicka set, even more if you play CP PVP. This PTS changes direct sorcs in the right direction and wont hurt the class or its identity as a mobile burstmachine, as some people like to project.

Certainly there needs to be a little bit of adjustment, times of braindead shield spamming seem to be over, but in my opinion thats good, because the cheese chasers wont get their kills that easy.

The changes on pts do directly the opposite of what you´re claiming here.
They encourage to stack more magica to compensate for the lack in shield strengh - aswell as to get more bang for the buck due to the increased costs.
Then they also encourage to stack more shields to maximise shield efficiency. A build with one shield needs to recast it - that´s not magica efficient. A build with two shields alternates the cast to get max value out of every shield they cast.

Have you actually tested the class on pts?

I did test it, yes, but i am not focusing on getting maximum efficiency out of shields, because that leads to, what you already mentioned, sustain problems. What ZOS is trying to adress with the changes to shields, is that they should be used far more situational, than just be mindlessly spammed. The adjusted cost to streak is to compensate that loss of "tankyness" and directs into a far more reactive style of combat, rasing the skill ceiling of the class a bit.
Yes, sorcs survivability took a hit with that patch, and moved them more in line with other magicka classes.
After all, the current PTS sorc is probably still the strongest magicka specc, with mag templar close after.

Calling Sorcs the strongest Magicka spec is like calling us the tallest midgets. We're still puny and weak compared to Stamina builds.

stritzi

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Calling Sorcs the strongest Magicka spec is like calling us the tallest midgets. We're still puny and weak compared to Stamina builds.

Every magicka spec is puny and weak compared to stamina, but the magicka heal changes on PTS imply that zos is probably going to bring magicka on par with stamina, with babysteps though.

Derra

stritzi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

stritzi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

One sustain set is not enough on pts.
Apart from that you have 4 parts that you need on sorc due to how some of it´s abilities work
Sorc needs magica, defense, sustain, damage - with magica being a stat for both (all three others on live with harness).

I have to disagree here, scrap the necessity of a magicka set, even more if you play CP PVP. This PTS changes direct sorcs in the right direction and wont hurt the class or its identity as a mobile burstmachine, as some people like to project.

Certainly there needs to be a little bit of adjustment, times of braindead shield spamming seem to be over, but in my opinion thats good, because the cheese chasers wont get their kills that easy.

The changes on pts do directly the opposite of what you´re claiming here.
They encourage to stack more magica to compensate for the lack in shield strengh - aswell as to get more bang for the buck due to the increased costs.
Then they also encourage to stack more shields to maximise shield efficiency. A build with one shield needs to recast it - that´s not magica efficient. A build with two shields alternates the cast to get max value out of every shield they cast.

Have you actually tested the class on pts?

I did test it, yes, but i am not focusing on getting maximum efficiency out of shields, because that leads to, what you already mentioned, sustain problems. What ZOS is trying to adress with the changes to shields, is that they should be used far more situational, than just be mindlessly spammed. The adjusted cost to streak is to compensate that loss of "tankyness" and directs into a far more reactive style of combat, rasing the skill ceiling of the class a bit.
Yes, sorcs survivability took a hit with that patch, and moved them more in line with other magicka classes.
After all, the current PTS sorc is probably still the strongest magicka specc, with mag templar close after.

Just that you can not use shields situationally because that makes them weaker than every other situational "oh crap" button.
The strengh of shields is to use them preemptively which excludes using them situationally.

The cost adjustment to streak does precisely nothing - because the ability on pts now fills two roles instead of one. One is being a melee stun - this directly counteracts the mobility and evasive part of streak.
If you´re using it in both regards you have to streak way more often than the cost increase makes up for.
Also streak doesn´t help you when you have 3+ ranged dots stacked on you all ticking for 2k+ a second.

Would you care to fight my magplar or magDK on pts to convince me that sorc is still the strongest magica spec - because quite frankly said i disagree about your assassement - but i´m always happy if convinced otherwise.

Sharee

Derra wrote: »

The cost adjustment to streak does precisely nothing - because the ability on pts now fills two roles instead of one. One is being a melee stun - this directly counteracts the mobility and evasive part of streak.
If you´re using it in both regards you have to streak way more often than the cost increase makes up for.

If i give you more resources, it is a boon.
If i give you a new way to use those resources, that also is a boon.

Arguing that the former is not a boon just because of the latter is silly.

It is like getting a million dollar gift and saying it does precisely nothing because you also got the option to buy a million-dollar yacht.

Aedaryl

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The cost adjustment to streak does precisely nothing - because the ability on pts now fills two roles instead of one. One is being a melee stun - this directly counteracts the mobility and evasive part of streak.
If you´re using it in both regards you have to streak way more often than the cost increase makes up for.

If i give you more resources, it is a boon.
If i give you a new way to use those resources, that also is a boon.

Arguing that the former is not a boon just because of the latter is silly.

It is like getting a million dollar gift and saying it does precisely nothing because you also got the option to buy a million-dollar yacht.

No. You don't get it.

Streak is used as your only stun and also as your mobility/escape tool.

The sorc stun was flame reach before.

Streak got a cost punishment decrease, but the fact that you use it more often because it is now ur stun doesn't make the overall sustain better.

The Streak change and it's new utilisation doesn't allow you to run with less sustain.

This isn't a complain or crying or a buff Streak answer, the reduction cost punishment just barely refund it's double utilisation.

But sorc will be hard trash if Hardened ward doesn't get far cheaper.

You cannot sustain at all a sorc on PTS. The class isn't viable because you either die OOM or go full sustain and have no mitigation and damage and so die because ur a squishy no damage Boi in a DoT meta where shield don't perform well.

Before even arguing about how strong a shield should be in a DoT meta, you need to sustain the shield.