The "Balance" of Mag Sorcs

Arzharo

No cp pvp is broken atm thanks to the literal gods that is magsorcs

WuffyCerulei

master_vanargand

Magicka Sorcerer has the strongest attack, the strongest defense, the strongest speed, the strongest pets.
Stupid ZOS is crazy about tasting Sorcerer's ass.

Emma_Overload

master_vanargand wrote: »

Magicka Sorcerer has the strongest attack, the strongest defense, the strongest speed, the strongest pets.
Stupid ZOS is crazy about tasting Sorcerer's ass.

Gap closer spammers can easily and cheaply catch any streaking Sorc and then execute him because he's out of Magicka.

Sorcerers are not even close to having the strongest attack. DK leap, NB Incap, NB spectral bow, Stamden Sub-Dawnbreaker combo, Stamina Onslaught ganker, Necro Bash build.... All these are stronger attacks than anything Sorcs can do.

The only things Sorcs have that are really strong are the shields and the pets, both of which have seen nerfs in recent months.

GoldenLight

I have been playing a sorcerer from the beginning.

At the beginning the classes were more balanced but people started calling for nerfs for other classes they got beaten by. So the sorcerers were one of the classes that was nerfed to the point that you hardly saw one on PvP or PvE (Because the change damaged that play a lot)
Then they balanced them back again but that just caused a nerf uproar again because of shields (No one really ran pets that much at this time). So eventually the shields were countered by shieldbreaker and it seemed to help. (PvE was helped more)
Now that they have tried to balance things again it has lead to another round of nerf sorcerers.

If they want to balance the classes they should do this to leave PvE alone.

Have all CP removed from the PvP campaigns. I play only non-CP campaigns and play a sorcerer. Also, any changes they make to the classes for PvP should be done by modification when you go to a campaign. Similar to the health buff so that the changes are able to be done more fluidly without having to have the developers worry about how the changes affect the PvE area.

Pets are not as strong in PvP if that is the issue by a debuff when in the campaign rather than killing it across the board. PvE is still where it is and totally independant. It would make more sense and balance would be easier to maintain as they could buff and nerf as needed in PvP area independantly and take out all PvE concerns they always have to balance with.

Just my 2 cents.

gepe87

We gladly gave up on pets if we get a proper healing and frag stun back. Power surge is not a viable option for noCP.

Frag buffed? I rather have a cc than 20%damage output.

Streak is bugged, costly and easily counterable by a gapclose.

I remember when people laugh about pets on pvp and now it seems it is a standard.

Magsorc is predictable: roll one and learn its weeknesses.

Oh I forgot:
Rune cage buffed nerfed buffed nerfed to the ground - Magsorc adapted

KurtAngle2

gepe87 wrote: »

We gladly gave up on pets if we get a proper healing and frag stun back. Power surge is not a viable option for noCP.

Frag buffed? I rather have a cc than 20%damage output.

Streak is bugged, costly and easily counterable by a gapclose.

I remember when people laugh about pets on pvp and now it seems it is a standard.

Magsorc is predictable: roll one and learn its weeknesses.

Oh I forgot:
Rune cage buffed nerfed buffed nerfed to the ground - Magsorc adapted

Frag Stun back -> Slot Clench and call it a day, it's better and you are still going to use a destro staff anyway
"Get proper healing", except that you get the best class heal AND damage all together in one (let's say two) skills.
"Magsorc is predictable" sure, except that it still does TOO MUCH of ANYTHING for a class with no real weakness.

Neloth

Emma_Overload wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Magicka Sorcerer has the strongest attack, the strongest defense, the strongest speed, the strongest pets.
Stupid ZOS is crazy about tasting Sorcerer's ass.

Sorcerers are not even close to having the strongest attack. DK leap, NB Incap, NB spectral bow, Stamden Sub-Dawnbreaker combo, Stamina Onslaught ganker, Necro Bash build.... All these are stronger attacks than anything Sorcs can do.

magsorc curse + fury + frag is stronger 1GCD burst compared to anything you listed, change my mind

In the meantime, you have a very strong pressure with matriarch attacks and atro/overload, if you need.

Mayrael

TBH the only thing that bothers me are pets. They mess with targeting and can see throught stealth and invisibility (well we can say this about all pets, proced from sets to). When you remove them from equation, sorcs are pretty balanced. I kill them, they kill me, nothing extraordinary.

Aedaryl

Neloth wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Magicka Sorcerer has the strongest attack, the strongest defense, the strongest speed, the strongest pets.
Stupid ZOS is crazy about tasting Sorcerer's ass.

Sorcerers are not even close to having the strongest attack. DK leap, NB Incap, NB spectral bow, Stamden Sub-Dawnbreaker combo, Stamina Onslaught ganker, Necro Bash build.... All these are stronger attacks than anything Sorcs can do.

magsorc curse + fury + frag is stronger 1GCD burst compared to anything you listed, change my mind

In the meantime, you have a very strong pressure with matriarch attacks and atro/overload, if you need.

Fury is an execute, taking execute damage isn't a good exemple.

Also, you forgot the stun, reach stun just before the frag meaning the already telegraphed burst is even more telegraphed and easely counterable by breakfree + block/dodge.

Sorc have a good and frequent burst for sure. But it's also the most telegraphed and you can counter it by shield/block/dodge the right time.

Almost every class has access to a very strong burst.

Sorc burst is not something people should complain about.

Shield stacking, harness being a spammable defense giving more magicka than it cost, healing matriarch dealing about the same damage than volatile familiar while also being a burst heal and complete passive damage, all those things can be looked at.

Sorc became competitive when their strongest weakness aka pressure got solved by matriarch damage.
The sorc burst alone is bad when you search to kill competitive players and tank meta. Remember these days.

Araviel2

Ofc we got to play top meta everything, the complaint that all other non meta sorc's gets is that they suck.

Neloth

Aedaryl wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Magicka Sorcerer has the strongest attack, the strongest defense, the strongest speed, the strongest pets.
Stupid ZOS is crazy about tasting Sorcerer's ass.

Sorcerers are not even close to having the strongest attack. DK leap, NB Incap, NB spectral bow, Stamden Sub-Dawnbreaker combo, Stamina Onslaught ganker, Necro Bash build.... All these are stronger attacks than anything Sorcs can do.

magsorc curse + fury + frag is stronger 1GCD burst compared to anything you listed, change my mind

In the meantime, you have a very strong pressure with matriarch attacks and atro/overload, if you need.

Fury is an execute, taking execute damage isn't a good exemple.

Also, you forgot the stun, reach stun just before the frag meaning the already telegraphed burst is even more telegraphed and easely counterable by breakfree + block/dodge.

Sorc have a good and frequent burst for sure. But it's also the most telegraphed and you can counter it by shield/block/dodge the right time.

Almost every class has access to a very strong burst.

Sorc burst is not something people should complain about.

Shield stacking, harness being a spammable defense giving more magicka than it cost, healing matriarch dealing about the same damage than volatile familiar while also being a burst heal and complete passive damage, all those things can be looked at.

Sorc became competitive when their strongest weakness aka pressure got solved by matriarch damage.
The sorc burst alone is bad when you search to kill competitive players and tank meta. Remember these days.

> Sorc burst is not something people should complain about.

First, I never complained about sorc burst. If you look carefully at the post history, Emma claimed that 5 ults and 2 active skills (ass will and sub assault) hit harder than sorc burst, and I disagreed.

> Fury is an execute, taking execute damage isn't a good exemple.

I agree, but it is also the only execute which hits in the same GCD with the burst. I prefer to count it into the burst, but it is debatable, yes.

> Sorc became competitive when their strongest weakness aka pressure got solved by matriarch damage. The sorc burst alone is bad when you search to kill competitive players and tank meta. Remember these days.

Exactly this, didn't I mention the same in my post? "In the meantime, you have a very strong pressure with matriarch attacks and atro/overload, if you need."

For many years ZoS told us that "sorcs don't have a good dot because it is a burst class", and last patch sorcs got matriarh changes, lol.

> Sorc have a good and frequent burst for sure. But it's also the most telegraphed and you can counter it by shield/block/dodge the right time.

You forgot purge, but nvm.

It USED to be a valid counterplay, when sorcs had to reapply at least 3 shields for the defence, and had no dot pressure.

Nowadays sorc pressure the **** out of you with matriarh, atro/overload, curse every 3.5 seconds, spammable and frequent frags. In the meantime, you can't counter pressure them properly, because they los pets and engine, and if pressured they just reapply a very strong hardened and keep being offensive.

If you play another magicka class, which can't dodge or block frequently, you are ****ed even more.

> Shield stacking, harness being a spammable defense giving more magicka than it cost, healing matriarch dealing about the same damage than volatile familiar while also being a burst heal and complete passive damage, all those things can be looked at.

Why do I need to shield stack, if I have 15k hardened with 21k+ resits and minor protection? And sustain just fine without harness at all.

Custos91

ecru wrote: »

gepe87 wrote: »

Streak nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Frag nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Shields nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Healing Ward nerfed - Magsorc adapted

Whats your problem now?

These were barely nerfs. Streak is still the best mobility skill in the game, Frags was just buffed (pay attention to patch notes, lol), shields were not nerfed at all (30k resists on top of shields is cool and good), and pets were buffed by a tremendous degree which pretty much makes up for any perceived "nerfs". Petsorcs are by far the strongest dps in pve, of course translates over very well to pvp, with the pet itself (tormenter or matriarch) being a major contribution to that dps due to it's constant dps pressure. In any fight with a petsorc their pet will be about 20% of their outgoing dps, and this is through absolutely zero effort on their part. They don't have to use an ability to apply a dot like every other class needs to if they want to do damage, it's basically always there and always present, so that pressure never stops even while they're using their shield or whatever else. No other class/build really has the luxury of never having to stop outgoing DPS on their target.

Mate do you remember what sorc skills did at launch?
Streak is so much nerfed compared to that^^
I used to block every single frag or die, not the case anymore, the stun removal on it is most certainly a nerf.
Shields nerfed? most certainly xD I mean at launch we had sorcs with 3-4 additional health bars as shields, and they lasted 30 seconds if I remember that right xDDDD

Sorc has gotten nerfed over and over, it is still strong and currently pets are overperforming, but at least the passive execute is gone.

LoreToo

Some1 need l2p, sorcs git nerfed. If you wanna nerf them more, take away: nb invis, DK gdb, templar BoL, warden wings, hmmmmm, necro bash xDDD.
Ok, to be honest, sorcs are fine. Easy to learn basics, hard to get on Malkolm level. So, where is any problem? Its 100% balanced
P.s. tell ty to zo$, they reworked emplosion last natch, its more then enough. You will no longer die in 20000000 meters away from fight when your healt is 19,999999%

Gilvoth

try cutting through an exploding rock with a really sharp knife.
same thing as fighting a sorcerer in pvp.

Derra

Neloth wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Magicka Sorcerer has the strongest attack, the strongest defense, the strongest speed, the strongest pets.
Stupid ZOS is crazy about tasting Sorcerer's ass.

Sorcerers are not even close to having the strongest attack. DK leap, NB Incap, NB spectral bow, Stamden Sub-Dawnbreaker combo, Stamina Onslaught ganker, Necro Bash build.... All these are stronger attacks than anything Sorcs can do.

magsorc curse + fury + frag is stronger 1GCD burst compared to anything you listed, change my mind

Just that it´s 3 gcds + traveltime of which 2 are also dodgeable and blockable?
Also who gets taken into execute range by frag + curse dmg?

grannas211

Derra wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Magicka Sorcerer has the strongest attack, the strongest defense, the strongest speed, the strongest pets.
Stupid ZOS is crazy about tasting Sorcerer's ass.

Sorcerers are not even close to having the strongest attack. DK leap, NB Incap, NB spectral bow, Stamden Sub-Dawnbreaker combo, Stamina Onslaught ganker, Necro Bash build.... All these are stronger attacks than anything Sorcs can do.

magsorc curse + fury + frag is stronger 1GCD burst compared to anything you listed, change my mind

Just that it´s 3 gcds + traveltime of which 2 are also dodgeable and blockable?
Also who gets taken into execute range by frag + curse dmg?

people crying in this thread

usmguy1234

Hint from a guy that's played sorc a lot but currently playing stamplar. Do not engage a sorc at their strongest points...ie on their back bar or on a open field. You cannot face tank a decent sorc. Sorcs are most vulnerable after their first curse explosion granted they are still on their front bar (offense). A well timed stun during this phase will ultimately give you a window when their shield goes down. Try to capitalize on this moment. If you don't nuke them, it's really their fight to lose at that point. I would suggest Los and resetting. Fighting a pet sorc is tough because they basically have Los no matter where they go.

Neloth

Derra wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Magicka Sorcerer has the strongest attack, the strongest defense, the strongest speed, the strongest pets.
Stupid ZOS is crazy about tasting Sorcerer's ass.

Sorcerers are not even close to having the strongest attack. DK leap, NB Incap, NB spectral bow, Stamden Sub-Dawnbreaker combo, Stamina Onslaught ganker, Necro Bash build.... All these are stronger attacks than anything Sorcs can do.

magsorc curse + fury + frag is stronger 1GCD burst compared to anything you listed, change my mind

Just that it´s 3 gcds + traveltime of which 2 are also dodgeable and blockable?
Also who gets taken into execute range by frag + curse dmg?

and who gets taken into execute range by dawnbreaker + sub? or incap?

mursie

friends don't let friends play magsorc.

it is embarrassing to read the sorc defender posts in this thread. delusional.

the class is absolutely absurd in no-cp pvp. It has the best mobility, survivability, pressure, burst, and healing of all classes. period. oh yeah - and a moveable LOS at its disposal.

I can not comment on sorc viability in crutch point land.

wheem_ESO

You might not kill good players in 1 combo, but you're kidding yourself if you think Mag Sorc damage isn't incredibly good, especially compared to every other Mag class besides DK. The difference in killing power I felt between Mag Warden and Mag Sorc (back when I was playing my Sorc actively) was night and day. I might get more scoreboard damage on the Warden, but actually killing people? Absolutely no comparison between the two; Sorc was/is vastly superior.

But rather than seeing Sorcs mega-nerfed, I'd prefer that some of the other Magicka classes get improvements that'd bring them up to roughly the same overall strength. If they're not as mobile, fine, but Sorcs are clearly better than most of the other Mag classes in most situations (not counting dedicated healers).

Aedaryl

wheem_ESO wrote: »

You might not kill good players in 1 combo, but you're kidding yourself if you think Mag Sorc damage isn't incredibly good, especially compared to every other Mag class besides DK. The difference in killing power I felt between Mag Warden and Mag Sorc (back when I was playing my Sorc actively) was night and day. I might get more scoreboard damage on the Warden, but actually killing people? Absolutely no comparison between the two; Sorc was/is vastly superior.

But rather than seeing Sorcs mega-nerfed, I'd prefer that some of the other Magicka classes get improvements that'd bring them up to roughly the same overall strength. If they're not as mobile, fine, but Sorcs are clearly better than most of the other Mag classes in most situations (not counting dedicated healers).

For sure if you look at magnecro, magden and magblade they are underpowered.

Magsorc isn't stronger than a *insert your stam class* heavy armor 7th legion + fury + bloospawn + S&B offensive bash machine.

And with the recent buffs magdk and magplar are very good too.

The magsorc = BiS for everything is a noob mantra that unexperienced/biased player like to claim with any proof.

Lord-Otto

KurtAngle2 wrote: »

gepe87 wrote: »

Streak nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Frag nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Shields nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Healing Ward nerfed - Magsorc adapted

Whats your problem now?

Shields weren't really nerfed and the magsorcer got his pet ENORMOUSLY buffed to the point that they do *** of dps and healings whilst messing with targeting. All of this whilst maintaining great dps and best execute in the game

Shields got nerfed twice. First was the big duration nerf. And I remember very well certain people crying "oh, now bad sorczzz can't be carried by shields anymore, suckeeerz!".
Well, sorcs still here. Certain people still moaning about shields. Leads me to believe those people are the problem and they will always complain - until the class gets deleted.

mursie

Aedaryl wrote: »

The magsorc = BiS for everything is a noob mantra that unexperienced/biased player like to claim with any proof.

hey magsorc

Aedaryl

mursie wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

The magsorc = BiS for everything is a noob mantra that unexperienced/biased player like to claim with any proof.

hey magsorc

Hello, have you some proof when you claim that :

mursie wrote: »

the class is absolutely absurd in no-cp pvp. It has the best mobility, survivability, pressure, burst, and healing of all classes. period. oh yeah - and a moveable LOS at its disposal.

I would love to see something right and constructive about magsorc best in everything.

Bazeric

gepe87 wrote: »

Streak nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Frag nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Shields nerfed - Magsorc adapted
Healing Ward nerfed - Magsorc adapted

Whats your problem now?

Maybe streak just needs a flat rework. It has had a few nerfs yes, but still problematic.
Frag was balanced, still strong, but not broken... but still stupid easy to proc compared to bow
Shields nerf weren't exclusive to sorc and the sorc shield wasn't hit harder
Healing ward nerf was stupid, it hurt other classes the most. Honestly sorc hasn't needed to use healing ward for a long time so this is irrelevant... unless you are trying petless, but that's a personal choice

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Gap closer spammers can easily and cheaply catch any streaking Sorc

False. After latency etc. gap closers are useless and don't fire since the sorc will be out-of-range and player character will stand dancing like an idiot trying to use the skill. I've been out streaked by various streak sorcs when I try to lock them down with gap closers/sprint on an orc running steed mundus. Again, False, a good sorc will be able to out streak, dark deal+potion and go off into the sunset, I've done it on my half-assed sorc with like 1800 regen.

Emma_Overload wrote: »

and then execute him because he's out of Magicka.

Sorcs are strong, they have good pacing for PVP, all the damage can be lined up to hit at once and since Fury take priority over every calculation, it's easy to finish targets. Pet targeting and twilight heal are incredibly strong too, you don't have enough time to take down a pet since that gives the sorc time to line up their burst on you. It's not exactly one problem to fix sorc, it's that they have all the things you need in PVP with out any significant sacrifice.

It still the only class where a half-assed build can be super effective for a majority of PVP play. Some classes can't perform at all unless they have a min/maxed type of build.

RighteousBacon

Sorcerer is a class that still has some of the few unique skills from launch. As long as you don’t take that away I’m fine

Veinblood1965

It's not pets. Pets are just a form of self heal or damage. It's not different than any other class that has a self heal option or a DOT etc. It's just that pet's come in PET form. It's called PET ENVY.

Derra

Neloth wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Magicka Sorcerer has the strongest attack, the strongest defense, the strongest speed, the strongest pets.
Stupid ZOS is crazy about tasting Sorcerer's ass.

Sorcerers are not even close to having the strongest attack. DK leap, NB Incap, NB spectral bow, Stamden Sub-Dawnbreaker combo, Stamina Onslaught ganker, Necro Bash build.... All these are stronger attacks than anything Sorcs can do.

magsorc curse + fury + frag is stronger 1GCD burst compared to anything you listed, change my mind

Just that it´s 3 gcds + traveltime of which 2 are also dodgeable and blockable?
Also who gets taken into execute range by frag + curse dmg?

and who gets taken into execute range by dawnbreaker + sub?

Considering Execute dmg for 2h starts at 50% hp instead of 20% that´s far more likely to happen (though it´s probably only worth it at around 35%?).
This is reinforced by sub + dawnbreaker not being telegraphed on the target.
This is further excerbated by one of these non target telegraphed abilities being a stun.
Last but not least the only possible defense against those two would be block as both hits are undodgeable.

So while i agree with your sentiment that you should in general not be taken into execute range (and die) by dawnbreaker + sub assault - it is my opinion that this scenario is a lot more likely to happen (and in my book that´s fine - we´re talking about an ultimate combo).

If someone would be serious in comparing these two scenarios my advice to them would be to maybe switch from playing with a steering wheel and pedals to something more suited.

olsborg

This game hasnt rly ever been well balanced, but heavy meta and bleeds is a bigger problem imo.