MagNB - What is our advantage to leverage?

MassiveFumes

If you came here to learn something or of the sort, Is move along lol.. this whole thread is full of people who don’t know what they’re talking about

MassiveFumes

I’d

DomiNate4NB

@MassiveFumes - would love your perspective on this.

Ariades_swe

Iskiab wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

How clueless does one have to be to think RAT is the reason magsorcs are OP right now... like wtf.

You’re reading things out of context. Speaking of clueless, look in the mirror.

That's rich coming from someone who doesn't even understand how the scoring system works in BGs while claiming to be a high MMR player. Or someone who posts this joke of a build while claiming to be an magNB main. The fact that you don't even seem to understand how your main works and yet feel compelled to give questionable build advice on classes you have little to no experience on just makes the irony even more obvious.

If you've actually played a sorc you'd understand that 1) RAT doesn't fit in the meta sorc build at all and it benefits other classes far more than sorcs because they don't have access to streak 2) the main reason magsorcs are OP right now is because of how overtuned their pets. But by all means keep crying about how making snare removal accessible to all mag classes was a bad idea and made magsorcs OP when they've already been OP for a while now.

Who even are you? I don’t think I’ve seen you in a single battleground.

It’s nice to see that I have a fanboy since you’re stalking my posts. Spec depends mostly on who you’re playing with and your group comp. You must roll solo and have no idea how to play at the top end.

lol it's hard not to notice when every other thread has a questionable reply made by the same person. I remember your username for the same reason I recognize all posts made by dwemer_paleontologist.

And even if we played on the same server we probably wouldn't be matched together because I'm pretty sure everyone in my MMR bracket knows the very basics of how BGs work...which you don't.

Ah okay. Nobody. NM. I find it hilarious that people think they see ‘questionable’ posts and I’m a noob. Then when they actual try something I’ve said they find out I’m right and send me messages all the time.

I see, so you think you’re good because you follow what someone with a website says is the best spec. Then think everyone else is dumb for not doing it... Meanwhile you’re playing a spec everyone knows the counters to and will always have an upper limit.

The point of that spec was stacking % damage reductions. 10% swift, 15% merciless, minor and major protection for 80% mitigation in 7 light. You didn’t even understand what I was thinking of trying.

No point in replying anymore. No point teaching someone how to play who’s belligerent.

U seriously think that's how percentage based mitigation works?

Iskiab

fred4 wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

How clueless does one have to be to think RAT is the reason magsorcs are OP right now... like wtf.

You’re reading things out of context. Speaking of clueless, look in the mirror.

That's rich coming from someone who doesn't even understand how the scoring system works in BGs while claiming to be a high MMR player. Or someone who posts this joke of a build while claiming to be an magNB main. The fact that you don't even seem to understand how your main works and yet feel compelled to give questionable build advice on classes you have little to no experience on just makes the irony even more obvious.

If you've actually played a sorc you'd understand that 1) RAT doesn't fit in the meta sorc build at all and it benefits other classes far more than sorcs because they don't have access to streak 2) the main reason magsorcs are OP right now is because of how overtuned their pets. But by all means keep crying about how making snare removal accessible to all mag classes was a bad idea and made magsorcs OP when they've already been OP for a while now.

Who even are you? I don’t think I’ve seen you in a single battleground.

It’s nice to see that I have a fanboy since you’re stalking my posts. Spec depends mostly on who you’re playing with and your group comp. You must roll solo and have no idea how to play at the top end.

lol it's hard not to notice when every other thread has a questionable reply made by the same person. I remember your username for the same reason I recognize all posts made by dwemer_paleontologist.

And even if we played on the same server we probably wouldn't be matched together because I'm pretty sure everyone in my MMR bracket knows the very basics of how BGs work...which you don't.

The point of that spec was stacking % damage reductions. 10% swift, 15% merciless, minor and major protection for 80% mitigation in 7 light. You didn’t even understand what I was thinking of trying.

That's not even how % mitigations stack bro omg And defense is the least of your super 1337 Icy Conjuror/Swift build's problems when you decide to slot both elemental ring and sap essence while not bothering with any CC whatsoever lol.

I rest my case.

I think he mainly does BGs and plays healers with a bit of AOE. Haven't looked at that build, though.

You are, of course, correct. Mitigation is multiplicative, except when t3hasiangod tested Merciless on the PTS, it was additive, so that bears looking into.

That is not true, the guy who tests all this stuff is working on it and thinks the formula has changed. Your mitigation is something like tooltip damage * (1 - resistances left over after pen in %) * ( 1 + (sum of all vulnerabilities - sum of all damage reductions)). He’s still tinkering with the formula for specifics.

Kadoin

I just stack DoTs and HoTs. Only problem is there aren't any sets to really do DoT damage and if there are, they never approach the benefit of raw stats and skills or are locked behind a paywa -- I mean "DLC." Then if you do have a build with raw stats, it feels like its incomplete, just like every single other mag build compared to stam.

Insco851

Kadoin wrote: »

I just stack DoTs and HoTs. Only problem is there aren't any sets to really do DoT damage and if there are, they never approach the benefit of raw stats and skills or are locked behind a paywa -- I mean "DLC." Then if you do have a build with raw stats, it feels like its incomplete, just like every single other mag build compared to stam.

Raw stat mnb only feels incomplete due to lack of heals and I’d argue that holds true for a proc set build, raw stat build, niche builds, gank builds... none of them are “complete” per se.

Iskiab

Insco851 wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

I just stack DoTs and HoTs. Only problem is there aren't any sets to really do DoT damage and if there are, they never approach the benefit of raw stats and skills or are locked behind a paywa -- I mean "DLC." Then if you do have a build with raw stats, it feels like its incomplete, just like every single other mag build compared to stam.

Raw stat mnb only feels incomplete due to lack of heals and I’d argue that holds true for a proc set build, raw stat build, niche builds, gank builds... none of them are “complete” per se.

Agreed. Downside of having nice buffs, but them all being split amongst different abilities.

I’d love to be able to fit inner light for the buffs, but how? Class feels more stretched now between either healing or doing damage. Taking away duplicate ‘effects’ from NB abilities really restricts what you can do. I’d love to have an ability like forward momentum for mag.

Insco851

Iskiab wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

I just stack DoTs and HoTs. Only problem is there aren't any sets to really do DoT damage and if there are, they never approach the benefit of raw stats and skills or are locked behind a paywa -- I mean "DLC." Then if you do have a build with raw stats, it feels like its incomplete, just like every single other mag build compared to stam.

Raw stat mnb only feels incomplete due to lack of heals and I’d argue that holds true for a proc set build, raw stat build, niche builds, gank builds... none of them are “complete” per se.

Agreed. Downside of having nice buffs, but them all being split amongst different abilities.

I’d love to be able to fit inner light for the buffs, but how? Class feels more stretched now between either healing or doing damage. Taking away duplicate ‘effects’ from NB abilities really restricts what you can do. I’d love to have an ability like forward momentum for mag.

I run inner light but I give up other possible skills. I also don’t run a major breach skill.

My main issue is I’d like to drop swallow soul front bar but then I have to move cripple to the front bar which screws up my combos.

Spell power pots are just not cost effective to rely on them for crit chance so inner light is a must for my build.

DomiNate4NB

@Iskiab - the double take update has snare removal. Tried it out last night (on Xbox) and it's great moving away from 2H. Got room for inner light too.

Destro: concealed, sap, double take (something escape), cloak, inner light, soul harvest

Resto: lotus, fear, path, mutagen, ward, soul siphon

Dropping cripple for lotus (dot hits hard now) makes my combo smooth as silk. Helps gap closers are smooth as well.

Combo: LA resto (proc damage glyph), lotus (procs caul usually), fear, bar swap, soul harvest, concealed/sap spam.

Performed a lot better than trying to start with cripple as it simplified the combo immensely.

Saps extra damage + minor vulnerability from lotus has really helped based on a couple hours of game play last night.

#cautiouslyoptimistic

Insco851

DomiNate4NB wrote: »

@Iskiab - the double take update has snare removal. Tried it out last night (on Xbox) and it's great moving away from 2H. Got room for inner light too.

Destro: concealed, sap, double take (something escape), cloak, inner light, soul harvest

Resto: lotus, fear, path, mutagen, ward, soul siphon

Dropping cripple for lotus (dot hits hard now) makes my combo smooth as silk. Helps gap closers are smooth as well.

Combo: LA resto (proc damage glyph), lotus (procs caul usually), fear, bar swap, soul harvest, concealed/sap spam.

Performed a lot better than trying to start with cripple as it simplified the combo immensely.

Saps extra damage + minor vulnerability from lotus has really helped based on a couple hours of game play last night.

#cautiouslyoptimistic

Solid setup and combo.

I tried lotus pre patch but I was not a fan of how glitchy it seemed.

My setup:
FB: swallow soul, Ele Weapon, Fear, merciless, inner light, soul harvest

Bb: cripple, annulment, Rat, dark cloak, shade, undo.

Cripple>Ele>fear>soul harvest>Ele spam/bow proc

I also have the option to preset ele and then LA>Swallow soul for a huge burst combo but hard to guarantee the lineup.

Would love to drop swallow soul but some opponents SS is more reliable as Ele is contingent on the LA landing. (And you gotta have a siphon skill FB)

HEBREWHAMMERRR

Well I got elsweyr finally last night and my magblade is rocking 60k max mag while having shade / cloak to escape. Also have 16.6k stam, 24.6 and 21.5k resistances, 1950 impen and 2050 recovery with 41% crit. So I don’t think other classes can achieve those numbers. As stated, the issue is our self healing. The mitigation from bow is nice and indirectly reduces healing needed. Still playing around with everything. More realistically I will probably drop some mag glyphs for tri stat and mage mundus for lady.

Insco851

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

Well I got elsweyr finally last night and my magblade is rocking 60k max mag while having shade / cloak to escape. Also have 16.6k stam, 24.6 and 21.5k resistances, 1950 impen and 2050 recovery with 41% crit. So I don’t think other classes can achieve those numbers. As stated, the issue is our self healing. The mitigation from bow is nice and indirectly reduces healing needed. Still playing around with everything. More realistically I will probably drop some mag glyphs for tri stat and mage mundus for lady.

60k lol. Is that with necro/Alfiq?

fred4

Insco851 wrote: »

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

Well I got elsweyr finally last night and my magblade is rocking 60k max mag while having shade / cloak to escape. Also have 16.6k stam, 24.6 and 21.5k resistances, 1950 impen and 2050 recovery with 41% crit. So I don’t think other classes can achieve those numbers. As stated, the issue is our self healing. The mitigation from bow is nice and indirectly reduces healing needed. Still playing around with everything. More realistically I will probably drop some mag glyphs for tri stat and mage mundus for lady.

60k lol. Is that with necro/Alfiq?

Until he posts his build on UESP, I won't believe a thing, specifically how you get that much mag AND that much stam AND that much regen together. If this is real at all, it probably includes vamp, Continuous Attack, potion buff and who knows what else. Hopefully not Imperial Physique.

As to other classes achieving the same mag, sure they can. Warden gets the same magicka buffs as magblade and it's arguably easier to keep Necropotence up. Then compare the tooltip of warden birds with Swallow Soul and weep.

Insco851

fred4 wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

Well I got elsweyr finally last night and my magblade is rocking 60k max mag while having shade / cloak to escape. Also have 16.6k stam, 24.6 and 21.5k resistances, 1950 impen and 2050 recovery with 41% crit. So I don’t think other classes can achieve those numbers. As stated, the issue is our self healing. The mitigation from bow is nice and indirectly reduces healing needed. Still playing around with everything. More realistically I will probably drop some mag glyphs for tri stat and mage mundus for lady.

60k lol. Is that with necro/Alfiq?

Until he posts his build on UESP, I won't believe a thing, specifically how you get that much mag AND that much stam AND that much regen together. If this is real at all, it probably includes vamp, Continuous Attack, potion buff and who knows what else. Hopefully not Imperial Physique.

As to other classes achieving the same mag, sure they can. Warden gets the same magicka buffs as magblade and it's arguably easier to keep Necropotence up. Then compare the tooltip of warden birds with Swallow Soul and weep.

Pretty sure he is also running some infused large pcs for this as well. I don’t think it’s not possible.

Those might be continuous buffed stats tho with vamp as you said. Also clearly Breton.

Insco851

fred4 wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

Well I got elsweyr finally last night and my magblade is rocking 60k max mag while having shade / cloak to escape. Also have 16.6k stam, 24.6 and 21.5k resistances, 1950 impen and 2050 recovery with 41% crit. So I don’t think other classes can achieve those numbers. As stated, the issue is our self healing. The mitigation from bow is nice and indirectly reduces healing needed. Still playing around with everything. More realistically I will probably drop some mag glyphs for tri stat and mage mundus for lady.

60k lol. Is that with necro/Alfiq?

Until he posts his build on UESP, I won't believe a thing, specifically how you get that much mag AND that much stam AND that much regen together. If this is real at all, it probably includes vamp, Continuous Attack, potion buff and who knows what else. Hopefully not Imperial Physique.

As to other classes achieving the same mag, sure they can. Warden gets the same magicka buffs as magblade and it's arguably easier to keep Necropotence up. Then compare the tooltip of warden birds with Swallow Soul and weep.

Easily recreated similar stats an uesp in 5 minutes. Dudes not bs’n

(Could push almost 64k apparently?)

Iskiab

Has to be. Magblade has nice passives, just a lot of crappy abilities so I try to use guild or weapon skill lines whenever I can.

@Insco851 You could always try reach as the spammable with the DSA staff, back bar the BRP destro staff and use ele ring, then use 3 piece willpower. Ele ring is like cripple but has DD and is AoE, I’m not a fan of cripple anymore since it’s been nerfed.

Front bar Siphoning strikes and maybe cripple back bar? I’m not sure.

Insco851

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=141839

@fred4

fred4

Insco851 wrote: »

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=141839

@fred4

Thanks! 82K Soul Assault with that as well. Hmmm.

kaithuzar

Insco851 wrote: »

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=141839

@fred4

Idk man,
You’ve got no penetration & no crit, are you sure you are killing max level players?

Insco851

kaithuzar wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=141839

@fred4

Idk man,
You’ve got no penetration & no crit, are you sure you are killing max level players?

-NOT MY BUILD-

(I did test it last night a bit and it was a tad underwhelming. Probably needed to tweak this a bit from my normal go to traits and such)

Also Hammer might be running sharpened and different skill layout. I just took my normal build and over wrote it with those sets. Hardly min maxed with everything.

fred4

This illustrates the huge difference to a proc build, such as mine.

I don't go for Merciless and I don't go for resistances (Protective). Instead I go for more sustain, 2x cost reduction + 2K regen + Breton + Siphoning Attacks + Deep Thoughts, and for speed, 3x Swift + Steed mundus + Concealed. Where Hebrew has good resistances, a big shield, and that new Merciless mitigation buff, I have speed and much better sustain.

He presumably plays ranged, I play melee.

I am able to perma-cloak without a potion, in and out of combat. I would say he can not.

He can fully control his Merciless proc and, at a 24K tooltip it hits harder than my Caluu proc, which has an 18K tooltip. His Swallow Soul tooltip is 11k. My unbuffed Swallow Soul tooltip is below 7K. He hits harder in general, I am presumably the harder hitting ganker.

I can only control the proc via cloak and with Lotus Fan or Concealed and must be at close range for it to work well. He is looking to burst people with his Merciless proc, which he can do from range.

He can be LoSd and outmaneuvered. My build is designed to stay on top of people seeking refuge on rock ledges. I relish keeping up the pressure by running after people trying to LoS. He is looking for the opening to one shot with his burst.

He is arguably safer, because he is at range and has much better mitigation. I put myself at great risk going into melee range with a squishier build, but I am also very, very fast and able to constantly move in and out of range, even without the shade.

As to whether I have the better burst, from cloak, I'm not even sure. I would say, yes, but a partial heavy into Soul Harvest would hit much harder than the same on my build, and his follow-up attacks are much better.

All that said, I love my build. Wouldn't change it for the world. I see nothing here that is clearly better than the other, just very different tradeoffs. I love my speed, which allows me to switch targets and reposition myself much faster than anyone else. A ranged build mitigates some of that by being, well, ranged, but it feels quite different.

Insco851

@fred4

Agreed. I’ve ran similar builds with speed, max stat, procs... they all have opportunity. Personal preference becomes the leading factor and how well you mechanically run your build.

DomiNate4NB

I'm of the strong opinion that you identity the skills you like and leverage as the first priority as well. Then gear that maximized those skills. Back into stats and such from there. I've tried to play like other people and still take other builds into consideration as I tinker. Still find that fun. Ultimately I'm the most successful when aligning to personal preference.

Insco851

Small update after a few hours with the new patch...

Merciless stacks+Rat+Dark Cloak+Harness is so damn strong. Snares be damned...

Illuvatarr

Iskiab wrote: »

Ceejaae wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Magblade advantage is mobility, escape and surprise.

Damage, burst and self healing you are uncompetitive with other classes. You will get crushed in a head to head fight against an equally competent and geared opponent.

Damagewise there are three strategies that do okay. First is full damage sets and ganking from cloak against unbuffed opponents. 2nd involves team play and skirmishing for burst: lotus fan into melee, sap spam to help aoe people down, port out... plus kill steal with impale. 3rd is more of a group role where you’re healing and doing damage.

Solo it is tough, not my thing, but against an aware good opponent I don’t see how you could win.

I’ve adapted by mixing healing and damage and find that style the most effective. Escape tools are more effective on a healer then dps, and magblades get a couple good healing abilities: Healthy Offering and Soul Siphon.

Wait, you're saying a MagNB is incapable of defeating any of the other classes 1v1 assuming equal gear & skill?

Maybe not every class, but some probably. I can’t see a magblade beating a magsorc for example in a duel with equal gear and skill level. No way.

Magblade’s damage is down for last patch, sorc’s is up. It’s early in the patch but that’s my impression yes.

There’s a reason there are more sorcs then ever in pvp.

Magblade is currently the strongest mag class in pvp. You aren’t specced right.

Insco851

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Ceejaae wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Magblade advantage is mobility, escape and surprise.

Damage, burst and self healing you are uncompetitive with other classes. You will get crushed in a head to head fight against an equally competent and geared opponent.

Damagewise there are three strategies that do okay. First is full damage sets and ganking from cloak against unbuffed opponents. 2nd involves team play and skirmishing for burst: lotus fan into melee, sap spam to help aoe people down, port out... plus kill steal with impale. 3rd is more of a group role where you’re healing and doing damage.

Solo it is tough, not my thing, but against an aware good opponent I don’t see how you could win.

I’ve adapted by mixing healing and damage and find that style the most effective. Escape tools are more effective on a healer then dps, and magblades get a couple good healing abilities: Healthy Offering and Soul Siphon.

Wait, you're saying a MagNB is incapable of defeating any of the other classes 1v1 assuming equal gear & skill?

Maybe not every class, but some probably. I can’t see a magblade beating a magsorc for example in a duel with equal gear and skill level. No way.

Magblade’s damage is down for last patch, sorc’s is up. It’s early in the patch but that’s my impression yes.

There’s a reason there are more sorcs then ever in pvp.

Magblade is currently the strongest mag class in pvp. You aren’t specced right.

Pretty sure you are mistaken. Strong yes... stronger than broken magsorc? Not even.

Iskiab

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Ceejaae wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Magblade advantage is mobility, escape and surprise.

Damage, burst and self healing you are uncompetitive with other classes. You will get crushed in a head to head fight against an equally competent and geared opponent.

Damagewise there are three strategies that do okay. First is full damage sets and ganking from cloak against unbuffed opponents. 2nd involves team play and skirmishing for burst: lotus fan into melee, sap spam to help aoe people down, port out... plus kill steal with impale. 3rd is more of a group role where you’re healing and doing damage.

Solo it is tough, not my thing, but against an aware good opponent I don’t see how you could win.

I’ve adapted by mixing healing and damage and find that style the most effective. Escape tools are more effective on a healer then dps, and magblades get a couple good healing abilities: Healthy Offering and Soul Siphon.

Wait, you're saying a MagNB is incapable of defeating any of the other classes 1v1 assuming equal gear & skill?

Maybe not every class, but some probably. I can’t see a magblade beating a magsorc for example in a duel with equal gear and skill level. No way.

Magblade’s damage is down for last patch, sorc’s is up. It’s early in the patch but that’s my impression yes.

There’s a reason there are more sorcs then ever in pvp.

Magblade is currently the strongest mag class in pvp. You aren’t specced right.

In what environment? Solo in cyrodiil? Pure damage magblades can do okay in cyrodiil. I’ve yet to see a pure damage magblade perform okay in a BG, definitely not well.

I’m a healer/damage dealer in BGs with 1k+ games played, since the patch I’ve only done maybe 30 but still occasionally see some, they usually do very poorly.

Stx

If I were to gear up my nightblade for pvp I would probably go melee for the higher spell damage and then stack penetration to burst through high resists. Spinners plus amberplasm or bright throats so I could spam cloak / damage / heals.

But I haven't played my nightblade in forever so i really am not an expert.

Iskiab

Stx wrote: »

If I were to gear up my nightblade for pvp I would probably go melee for the higher spell damage and then stack penetration to burst through high resists. Spinners plus amberplasm or bright throats so I could spam cloak / damage / heals.

But I haven't played my nightblade in forever so i really am not an expert.

Those two sets are a good combination, but only for ranged or skirmisher builds. If you try to melee with so little defense you will end up going 0-10 when you hit higher MMR like most the magblades I’ve seen.

Still, people will complain in group chat when they see you on a team. In general the people who play glass canon specs who can’t push with their team make the team weaker.