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Seriously, this game is too easy and the overworld needs to be buffed heavily.
-
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I do not “put” potions and food in the same category as weapons and skills. They’re already there and always have been. It’s a key aspect of character stats.
I don’t “min max” my drops-only newbie toons. The game asks nothing of me in its quests, absolutely zero requirements are needed to succeed. You think anyone with more than an infantilegrasp of the game should’ve locked out of even slightly engaging questing without throwing out every piece of knowledge the game teaches them.
And please ffs stop talking about WBs which NO ONE is complaining about when we mention Quest Bosses. Read what is being written.
No tools are available to make the game a challenge. “Don’t use gear” isn’t a tool. “Don’t dodge” isn’t a mechanic. “Don’t use drops” isn’t a system of challenge.
You claim people die all the time to quest bosses? Fine, show me quotes from people who find questing any kind of threat. Let see these player who are apparently completely unable to adapt in any way at all when one approach doesn’t work
when was the last time you wantched general chat. cause i'm STILL seeing people ask help with QUEST bosses. I'm still seeing people DIE to QUEST bosses.
potions and foods are OPTIONAL buffs that you can use to make the game easier for yourself.
moreover - people ARE complaining about world bosses being too easy. please do read the thread.
in any case. i'm tired of arguing with you. its pointless and I'm not here to convince you. i'm here to convince ZoS that not everyone wants the game to be "harder"
We probably play different game, though there are always people who ask help with world bosses in zone chat, I NEVER saw somebody asking to help with delve/quest boss in my 2k+ hours in ESO. I bet there is couple of quest bosses who can give some challenge to completely non-optimized character with gear outdated for 10 levels, but exceptions only prove the rules.
3 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭exeeter702 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.
Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.
they should NOT be a requirement for overworld. encouraged =/= must under all circumstances.
Its basic feature matter o fact your starting inventory it's right there. I dont know , I really feel like people expect the game to play it for them. I mean even solitaire has a challenge to it. No one is asking for lvl one to be skin of your neck encounters. People are asking for some sort of progression or at least a sliding scale so you can adjust. Lvl 1 you should be able to light attack and not use skills. But by level 50 the game should have increased the difficulty moderately along the way.Edited by Wifeaggro13 on May 31, 2019 10:14PM6 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.
Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.
they should NOT be a requirement for overworld. encouraged =/= must under all circumstances.
Its basic feature matter o fact your starting inventory it's right there. I dont know , I really feel like people expect the game to play it for them. I mean even solitaire has a challenge to it. No one is asking for lvl one to be skin of your neck encounters. People are asking for some sort of progression or at least a sliding scale so you can adjust. Lvl 1 you should be able to light attack and not use skills. But by level 50 the game should have increased the difficulty moderately along the way.
sigh. potions and food are required for dungeons, they are optional for overworld. as it should be.
to summarize, becasue you all keep side tracking and changing your angles.
the core of the argument. overworld is NOT too easy, its currently exactly where it should be.Edited by Linaleah on May 31, 2019 10:25PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***4 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.
Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.
they should NOT be a requirement for overworld. encouraged =/= must under all circumstances.
Its basic feature matter o fact your starting inventory it's right there. I dont know , I really feel like people expect the game to play it for them. I mean even solitaire has a challenge to it. No one is asking for lvl one to be skin of your neck encounters. People are asking for some sort of progression or at least a sliding scale so you can adjust. Lvl 1 you should be able to light attack and not use skills. But by level 50 the game should have increased the difficulty moderately along the way.
sigh. potions and food are required for dungeons, they are optional for overworld. as it should be.
to summarize, becasue you all keep side tracking and changing your angles.
the core of the argument. overworld is NOT too easy, its currently exactly where it should be.
Its really not . It's the same difficulty at lvl 1 as it is at lvl cp 320 fully geared. That means your character actually gets weaker as you lvl not stronger.1 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.
Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.
they should NOT be a requirement for overworld. encouraged =/= must under all circumstances.
Its basic feature matter o fact your starting inventory it's right there. I dont know , I really feel like people expect the game to play it for them. I mean even solitaire has a challenge to it. No one is asking for lvl one to be skin of your neck encounters. People are asking for some sort of progression or at least a sliding scale so you can adjust. Lvl 1 you should be able to light attack and not use skills. But by level 50 the game should have increased the difficulty moderately along the way.
sigh. potions and food are required for dungeons, they are optional for overworld. as it should be.
to summarize, becasue you all keep side tracking and changing your angles.
the core of the argument. overworld is NOT too easy, its currently exactly where it should be.
Its really not . It's the same difficulty at lvl 1 as it is at lvl cp 320 fully geared. That means your character actually gets weaker as you lvl not stronger.
its... not. at early levels the game buffs you in order to entice you, then the game gets harder, until you get better at it, etc. at which point it becomes easier and easier. which is kinda the point. you as a player have gotten more powerful, because you understand the game better. its as it should be.
moreover.... if your character wasn't getting more powerful, then how in a world can the argument of "the overworld is too easy" even exist?? its contradictory to claim that the world is too easy, while also claiming that your character is not getting any more powerful.Edited by Linaleah on May 31, 2019 10:53PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.
Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.
they should NOT be a requirement for overworld. encouraged =/= must under all circumstances.
Its basic feature matter o fact your starting inventory it's right there. I dont know , I really feel like people expect the game to play it for them. I mean even solitaire has a challenge to it. No one is asking for lvl one to be skin of your neck encounters. People are asking for some sort of progression or at least a sliding scale so you can adjust. Lvl 1 you should be able to light attack and not use skills. But by level 50 the game should have increased the difficulty moderately along the way.
sigh. potions and food are required for dungeons, they are optional for overworld. as it should be.
to summarize, becasue you all keep side tracking and changing your angles.
the core of the argument. overworld is NOT too easy, its currently exactly where it should be.
Quest bosses
Not overland trash, BOSSES
Stop pretending like anyone is asking for every trash mob to be vet dungeon level difficulty3 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sylvermynx wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Why don't you remove all your CP's, and take your gear off if you want difficulty for the sake of difficulty?
People already have, and it’s still pointlessly easybarney2525 wrote: »navystylz_ESO wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »navystylz_ESO wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »
You are right. No one mentioned the rewards.
But no one ever mentions their Real ultimate goals either.
Must be really nice for people like you to pull absolutely BS out their arse to attack that argument, rather than the on-going actual discussion. You have NEVER gotten good rewards from quest content. NEVER. So this fixation and pretending peopel thinking overland content is too easy because they want better rewards is just inane. Stop. Just stop.
Nope
If you had paid any attention, you would have seen I have been addressing the issue.
The idea that the Main Focus of this or any other game of this type is to have the "wandering monsters" be the most dangerous and horribly hard for characters to kill is just plain ridiculous. The character needs to get from point A to point B to pursue the actual Mission (whatever it may be). Overland is simply Filler. It's Nuisance. It is DESIGNED to be minimal effort - especially for higher powered characters. To think otherwise makes no sense. It is NOT a Major part of the game.
So, if I see someone so adamant about Making it some Major part of the game, I start wondering Why. It's Not because "it's too easy". That would be something you complain about if you get to a world boss and it falls over in 3 hits.
That's Not what Overland is. Overland is Not Supposed to be hard, and it is functioning Exactly as it is supposed to. You tell me - WHY DOES ANYONE CARE THAT IS IS EASY TO GET FROM POINT A TO POINT B?
IMHOI can run through everything just like I would with CP and gear on. There's virtually no chance of me dying against trash mobs, even the "bosses" of quests are not a challenge. When we talk about the game being too easy, this is the number one issue.But you know some of us, actually want a little bit of a challenge, we want to die to trash mobs if we aggro too many, ESPECIALLY in the overworld. Some of us want the bosses of quests or delves to be actually challenging
From the OP. And many of us clarified our positions with not including PBs, Dolmen, WBs. Explaining that the penultimate boss of a quest chain should feel like a boss. Though I have mentioned delves several times not included in the 'overland', I thought he meant the delve bosses that quests had you do, rather than the rando you kill because it's sits in there.It is NOT a Major part of the game.
It's a majority of the game. Most of the content is questing stuff that is overland and where that brings you. The content added each chapter and DLC, which continuously treats the whole world like it's an afterthought. That would have us suspend disbelief but tell us majordomo X is so powerful, and he dies in 2 hits.
Most of the time I quest I feel resentment that quest bits aren't instanced, that not only do I have to deal with extremely easy bosses, but there's a good chance some random person runs in and starts nuking them too. Now boss that I could kill in a few hits myself, instantly dies completely destroying any immersion in the story.Maybe I'm older than you are, But Nobody complains this hard about something this insignificant without having Something else that they want to accomplish.
Could be. Maybe not. Or could be that people just are incapable of arguing a position as stated. How hard is it to understand that this game with every chapter and DLC release, brings for another story arc. One that can be smashed through solo, but generally have a bunch of other players smashing through with you, extremely easily.
I came to the forums because after doing Elsweyr completion I just felt cheated. Most of the story was good but I left it feeling like the experience was cheapened by how easy it was. This left me feeling bored and wondering if that aspect of the game was even worth paying more money for.
At least in GW2 the living season come free as long as you are logged in during a particular bit. ESO makes you pay for it and the only reason I feel like this chapter was worth it is because the Necromancer. But I began to question redoing all the content of my original main on the new necromancer was actually going to keep me occupied without feeling like it was so easy that the story completion would leave me feeling more bored than entertained.
This is why I came to the forums. And lo and behold, right there on the first page was this thread with other people expressing the exact same concerns I was feeling.
I don't need more rewards. I don't need anything else except not feeling bored to tears doing the story content which makes up a majority of this game, and is only bearable when the storytelling is superb, which isn't always the case.
Disagree.
It's Not a Majority of the game because IF you want you can simply avoid it - Completely.
You do not have to fight Anything if you don't Choose to.
It Can't be considered a ' Majority ' of the game if it can be simply ignored.
I could not even estimate the many many many characters I have seen running across my screen, being pursued by several mobs. It's not that the character could not stop and kill them. The player just has better things to do - like reaching their actual objective and participating in whatever that issue is.
Overland is Flavor.
Now you’re just outright lying
Questing is not avoidable in any way. You need it for Psijic. You need it for crafting area access. You need it to have access to many dailies. You need it for skill points. You need it for Soul Magic. You need it to experience a damn story
You’re not some old wisened Yoda, you’re just being a nuisance who clearly has no interest in actual debate, who believes all players are infantile creatures that would immediately throw out the whole game if a quest boss actually had a chance to kill them.
Then start removing points from all your passives, and use only one bar, and don't LA weave. Just keep going down the list until you've found the right level of "difficulty" for yourself, then play the rest of the game that way.
That's like suggesting if someone is too smart for a class they should take a crowbar to their head until they are brain damaged enough to where that class challenges them - instead of seeking out a more challenging class they could actually have fun learning in.
It's preposterous.
In the context of a game with pre defined parameters, that's what you need to do if that is the thrill you seek.
I don't find purposely gimping myself thrilling. I find it stupid. In any context.
Then you aren't interested in challenge.
Move along.
Challenge is key part of gameplay, but not the only part. Another essential part of any RPG is your build. You may go for full glass-cannon build in VMA for example with reward of higher scores but this will require times more skill then completing VMA as petsorc or WW. But in overland even if you are full glass cannon you still cannot die.. so if you remove your armor etc you will simply kill mobs longer, but they still can't kill you if you do basic actions like not standing in aoe and blocking/dodging heavy attacks. So now you will propose not to dodge aoes and heavy attacks?
what's left of gameplay then? you don't have build, you can't use CP perks which unlock mechanics, you can't use active defense, you can't use heals.. so you just stay in front of mobs in aoe light attacking them and then you finally die and feel accomplishment - "I finally found challenge"?
I know.
The whole point of an RPG is to make your character more powerful by collecting gear and experience. This idea that you should remove all of that to try and make the game more fun is like saying you should get rid of the football to have fun on a football field. It defeats the whole purpose of the game itself - at which point there is really no point in playing it at all.
Um. Have to disagree. The whole point of an RPG is that I have fun playing it. And RP'ing it. Right now, with new faster 'net, I'm going to be able to do stuff I haven't been able to do before - like bar swapping.... And I'm going to fully enjoy that. But the bottom line for me is - I am having fun in this game.
When it stops being fun, I'll stop playing it. Making overland harder? Eh, nope thanks. I play games (especially TES) for the stories.
Now.... I'm on board for a toggle that gives people like you a DiD option. Go for it, ZOS. And when you die repeatedly.... well... remember you asked for it.
Hit dog barks.
Right. And what makes an RPG "fun? Getting cool new gear and more experience so you can grow more powerful and learn more skills.
Do you know what makes an RPG less fun? At least to me? Stripping your character of all his gear and experience which you've spent years collecting and working hard to achieve. To be honest with you - I could not think of a better way to ruin an RPG. This whole prospect of stripping your character of his gear and experience to have "more fun" sounds so ridiculous and absurd to me I can't even take it seriously.
If I just wanted to read stories - I'd go to the library. Combat matters to me in an RPG - a lot. As does the overall game play. And having to run around naked just doesn't work for me. Maybe if I was at the beach with some girls that'd be my thing. But when I play an MMORPG running around naked just isn't something I'm interested in doing.
And that's fine if you don't want to see the landscape difficulty increased. What I am arguing for here is an optional veteran zone to quest in for people who do care about combat and don't want to have to run around naked reading stories. So what I am suggesting in this thread would not affect you in any way. Nor am I asking for the difficulty to be heightened to such a degree that I would die repeatedly. I am just asking for a modest challenge increase to make the combat interesting again.
We'll agree to disagree. I really am not into combat period. I'm sort of "pacifistic" when it comes to game fun. I don't want to kill my way through zones.... Combat doesn't matter to me in an RPG. And I already said in the post you quoted that "Now.... I'm on board for a toggle that gives people like you a DiD option. Go for it, ZOS."
Questing is my life in games, including MMOs. I prefer to quest without having to worry about getting characters killed while doing so.3 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.
Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.
they should NOT be a requirement for overworld. encouraged =/= must under all circumstances.
Its basic feature matter o fact your starting inventory it's right there. I dont know , I really feel like people expect the game to play it for them. I mean even solitaire has a challenge to it. No one is asking for lvl one to be skin of your neck encounters. People are asking for some sort of progression or at least a sliding scale so you can adjust. Lvl 1 you should be able to light attack and not use skills. But by level 50 the game should have increased the difficulty moderately along the way.
sigh. potions and food are required for dungeons, they are optional for overworld. as it should be.
to summarize, becasue you all keep side tracking and changing your angles.
the core of the argument. overworld is NOT too easy, its currently exactly where it should be.
Conclusions of this thread (and plz don't consider me an elitist of any kind, I'm just average experienced player) - difficulty of overland has little to do with gear and CP, it is related to fact if person uses basic instruments of any action game, i.e. positioning, dodging, using abilities, using consumables, picking up loot.
So your position is that current overland quests should be doable without mentioned action gameplay due to slogan - "play the way you want". This is correct for those who don't want to have this action combat, it's ok. But there are others who want to have natural action combat with appropriate challenge, for us we need veteran version of overland, so we may play the way we want. Removing CP and golden gear doesn't provide this. So without ZOS's help we can't enjoy huge part of the game we payed for, this is bad by any means and we have right to ask for options from ZOS as paying customers.
Edited by MartiniDaniels on May 31, 2019 11:29PM3 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sylvermynx wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Why don't you remove all your CP's, and take your gear off if you want difficulty for the sake of difficulty?
People already have, and it’s still pointlessly easybarney2525 wrote: »navystylz_ESO wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »navystylz_ESO wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »
You are right. No one mentioned the rewards.
But no one ever mentions their Real ultimate goals either.
Must be really nice for people like you to pull absolutely BS out their arse to attack that argument, rather than the on-going actual discussion. You have NEVER gotten good rewards from quest content. NEVER. So this fixation and pretending peopel thinking overland content is too easy because they want better rewards is just inane. Stop. Just stop.
Nope
If you had paid any attention, you would have seen I have been addressing the issue.
The idea that the Main Focus of this or any other game of this type is to have the "wandering monsters" be the most dangerous and horribly hard for characters to kill is just plain ridiculous. The character needs to get from point A to point B to pursue the actual Mission (whatever it may be). Overland is simply Filler. It's Nuisance. It is DESIGNED to be minimal effort - especially for higher powered characters. To think otherwise makes no sense. It is NOT a Major part of the game.
So, if I see someone so adamant about Making it some Major part of the game, I start wondering Why. It's Not because "it's too easy". That would be something you complain about if you get to a world boss and it falls over in 3 hits.
That's Not what Overland is. Overland is Not Supposed to be hard, and it is functioning Exactly as it is supposed to. You tell me - WHY DOES ANYONE CARE THAT IS IS EASY TO GET FROM POINT A TO POINT B?
IMHOI can run through everything just like I would with CP and gear on. There's virtually no chance of me dying against trash mobs, even the "bosses" of quests are not a challenge. When we talk about the game being too easy, this is the number one issue.But you know some of us, actually want a little bit of a challenge, we want to die to trash mobs if we aggro too many, ESPECIALLY in the overworld. Some of us want the bosses of quests or delves to be actually challenging
From the OP. And many of us clarified our positions with not including PBs, Dolmen, WBs. Explaining that the penultimate boss of a quest chain should feel like a boss. Though I have mentioned delves several times not included in the 'overland', I thought he meant the delve bosses that quests had you do, rather than the rando you kill because it's sits in there.It is NOT a Major part of the game.
It's a majority of the game. Most of the content is questing stuff that is overland and where that brings you. The content added each chapter and DLC, which continuously treats the whole world like it's an afterthought. That would have us suspend disbelief but tell us majordomo X is so powerful, and he dies in 2 hits.
Most of the time I quest I feel resentment that quest bits aren't instanced, that not only do I have to deal with extremely easy bosses, but there's a good chance some random person runs in and starts nuking them too. Now boss that I could kill in a few hits myself, instantly dies completely destroying any immersion in the story.Maybe I'm older than you are, But Nobody complains this hard about something this insignificant without having Something else that they want to accomplish.
Could be. Maybe not. Or could be that people just are incapable of arguing a position as stated. How hard is it to understand that this game with every chapter and DLC release, brings for another story arc. One that can be smashed through solo, but generally have a bunch of other players smashing through with you, extremely easily.
I came to the forums because after doing Elsweyr completion I just felt cheated. Most of the story was good but I left it feeling like the experience was cheapened by how easy it was. This left me feeling bored and wondering if that aspect of the game was even worth paying more money for.
At least in GW2 the living season come free as long as you are logged in during a particular bit. ESO makes you pay for it and the only reason I feel like this chapter was worth it is because the Necromancer. But I began to question redoing all the content of my original main on the new necromancer was actually going to keep me occupied without feeling like it was so easy that the story completion would leave me feeling more bored than entertained.
This is why I came to the forums. And lo and behold, right there on the first page was this thread with other people expressing the exact same concerns I was feeling.
I don't need more rewards. I don't need anything else except not feeling bored to tears doing the story content which makes up a majority of this game, and is only bearable when the storytelling is superb, which isn't always the case.
Disagree.
It's Not a Majority of the game because IF you want you can simply avoid it - Completely.
You do not have to fight Anything if you don't Choose to.
It Can't be considered a ' Majority ' of the game if it can be simply ignored.
I could not even estimate the many many many characters I have seen running across my screen, being pursued by several mobs. It's not that the character could not stop and kill them. The player just has better things to do - like reaching their actual objective and participating in whatever that issue is.
Overland is Flavor.
Now you’re just outright lying
Questing is not avoidable in any way. You need it for Psijic. You need it for crafting area access. You need it to have access to many dailies. You need it for skill points. You need it for Soul Magic. You need it to experience a damn story
You’re not some old wisened Yoda, you’re just being a nuisance who clearly has no interest in actual debate, who believes all players are infantile creatures that would immediately throw out the whole game if a quest boss actually had a chance to kill them.
Then start removing points from all your passives, and use only one bar, and don't LA weave. Just keep going down the list until you've found the right level of "difficulty" for yourself, then play the rest of the game that way.
That's like suggesting if someone is too smart for a class they should take a crowbar to their head until they are brain damaged enough to where that class challenges them - instead of seeking out a more challenging class they could actually have fun learning in.
It's preposterous.
In the context of a game with pre defined parameters, that's what you need to do if that is the thrill you seek.
I don't find purposely gimping myself thrilling. I find it stupid. In any context.
Then you aren't interested in challenge.
Move along.
Challenge is key part of gameplay, but not the only part. Another essential part of any RPG is your build. You may go for full glass-cannon build in VMA for example with reward of higher scores but this will require times more skill then completing VMA as petsorc or WW. But in overland even if you are full glass cannon you still cannot die.. so if you remove your armor etc you will simply kill mobs longer, but they still can't kill you if you do basic actions like not standing in aoe and blocking/dodging heavy attacks. So now you will propose not to dodge aoes and heavy attacks? what's left of gameplay then? you don't have build, you can't use CP perks which unlock mechanics, you can't use active defense, you can't use heals.. so you just stay in front of mobs in aoe light attacking them and then you finally die and feel accomplishment - "I finally found challenge"?
I know.
The whole point of an RPG is to make your character more powerful by collecting gear and experience. This idea that you should remove all of that to try and make the game more fun is like saying you should get rid of the football to have fun on a football field. It defeats the whole purpose of the game itself - at which point there is really no point in playing it at all.
Um. Have to disagree. The whole point of an RPG is that I have fun playing it. And RP'ing it. Right now, with new faster 'net, I'm going to be able to do stuff I haven't been able to do before - like bar swapping.... And I'm going to fully enjoy that. But the bottom line for me is - I am having fun in this game.
When it stops being fun, I'll stop playing it. Making overland harder? Eh, nope thanks. I play games (especially TES) for the stories.
Now.... I'm on board for a toggle that gives people like you a DiD option. Go for it, ZOS. And when you die repeatedly.... well... remember you asked for it.
Hit dog barks.
Right. And what makes an RPG "fun? Getting cool new gear and more experience so you can grow more powerful and learn more skills.
Do you know what makes an RPG less fun? At least to me? Stripping your character of all his gear and experience which you've spent years collecting and working hard to achieve. To be honest with you - I could not think of a better way to ruin an RPG. This whole prospect of stripping your character of his gear and experience to have "more fun" sounds so ridiculous and absurd to me I can't even take it seriously.
If I just wanted to read stories - I'd go to the library. Combat matters to me in an RPG - a lot. As does the overall game play. And having to run around naked just doesn't work for me. Maybe if I was at the beach with some girls that'd be my thing. But when I play an MMORPG running around naked just isn't something I'm interested in doing.
And that's fine if you don't want to see the landscape difficulty increased. What I am arguing for here is an optional veteran zone to quest in for people who do care about combat and don't want to have to run around naked reading stories. So what I am suggesting in this thread would not affect you in any way. Nor am I asking for the difficulty to be heightened to such a degree that I would die repeatedly. I am just asking for a modest challenge increase to make the combat interesting again.
We'll agree to disagree. I really am not into combat period. I'm sort of "pacifistic" when it comes to game fun. I don't want to kill my way through zones.... Combat doesn't matter to me in an RPG. And I already said in the post you quoted that "Now.... I'm on board for a toggle that gives people like you a DiD option. Go for it, ZOS."
Questing is my life in games, including MMOs. I prefer to quest without having to worry about getting characters killed while doing so.
If that is the case then you’d be better off simply roleplaying the traditional way. Or writing.
Your interests, by your own admission, do not lie in gameplay, thus a roleplay game should not be designed around your preference because it fundamentally does not comply with what you’re after.
Those who are looking for a game rather than a graphic novel with exploration elements, would like gameplay that is not completely invalidated the moment you understand the most basic gameplay functions, and to be honest you don’t even need to have a grasp of those before the challenge is totally gone.
Scaling challenge should exist as you progress, “powerful” enemies should pose threats that can kill your character, and quest bosses should not completely shatter your immersion due to how pathetically weak they are.Edited by Jhalin on June 1, 2019 7:25AM8 -
Kamatsu✭✭✭✭
This is how ESO was at launch. Each zone scaled up in difficulty, so as you progressed through the story you'd gain level's, which would then let you move on to the next zone which was harder then the previous zone. Once you'd done one faction you would then move onto the even harder 'veteran' zones, which kept scaling up in difficulty as you progressed through the zones.Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Personaly I think even that does not go far enough. The game should become increasingly challenging in a moderate way as you gain levels and CP.
That is what your advocating - for ZOS to basically rework the game to be how it was before. Back to how it was when they were losing players faster than they could gain them. Back to when they had the choice of either revamping the game to 1T and try and rescue it or shut the whole game down.
If you think the same loss of players, the same loss of revenue, the same choice, etc won't happen again... then I have a plot of land I'd like to sell you. Because if ZOS was stupid enough to rework the game to how it was before, they would face the exact same problems again... and this time they would shut the game down IMO rather than spending even more money re-implementing 1T to try and save the game again.What are you on about games have not tried to cater to a hard core since B2P and F2P models hit the genre
Wildstar - flopped within a year. It advertised itself as the MMO for the hardcore, for those who remembered EQ1 & 2 fondly. After it died at launch, dev's rushed to make it F2P and add in a lot of casual friendly content... this is the only reason it lasted as long as it did.
GW2 - listened to the hardcore ppl like you & others who complained that the base game overland was way too easy and difficulty HAD to be ramped up. They made the expansion HoT way harder, less solo friendly, more group-focused... everything you & others call for. They suffered a 67% revenue loss due to players abandoning the game. Anet ended up majorly nerfing the expansion, making it more solo friendly, making it more easy and apologized for listening to the 'content must be harder' folk... all in an attempt to stop the revenue loss, which would lead to GW2 being shutdown within months had it continued at the rate it was.
WoW - trying to cater more to hardcore and raiders by forcing players into harder dungeon types and raids just to get through the past 2 expansions main story (not the conclusion mind you, but from midway onwards). It's one of the complaints I saw aired a lot of wow forums, reddit, etc that casual players were hitting a roadblock on the story, doing craft skills, etc due to being forced to do harder content than they wanted to do just to progress - these are ppl who didn't mind missing out on the conclusion... but now they were missing out on the last quarter/half of the story as well.Eq 1 early wow eq2 and ultima. They fathered this genre and that community kept the light on and made massive profits . It's why every Tom *** and harry started making garbage games to try and get a piece of the pie
Actually incorrect on the 'massive profits' thing - EQ 1 nor 2 never made MMO genre popular, nor did they get massive profits. It was WoW that broke the mold and made MMO's popular - it did this by making the genre accessible to casual players as well as hardcore. Unlike EQ1, EQ2, UO, etc it was a game where people could solo most content (open world quest's, main zone story quest's, etc). People flocked to it because it was made by Blizzard, was a Warcraft game... and because it was easy enough to not require grouping to play.
There's a reason why a lot of MMO's are referred to as "WoW clones" and not "EQ clones" or such.. it's because they saw WoW go flying past the 1-2 million player mark super fast, skyrocketing past 6 million in Burning Crusade expansion, and eventually capping up at 12-13 million players in WotLK days... and wanted in on the money. Eq1 & 2 never broke the 1-2 million player mark... why? Because they are old-school 'group or else' games. The game that caused the flurry of MMO's to crop up was WoW, because it was casual friendly and drew in the crowds... and thus brought in massive, massive profits. EQ1/2/UO *never* saw anywhere near the success or profits as WoW did, and it isn't what the vast majority of MMO's were trying to cloneo_O7 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭^ If that is all correct, I thank God that I avoided MMORPG genre for all my youth and that ESO has group content of good quality and amazing community so I can give up on unplayable (for me) overland without losing my characters.1 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »^ If that is all correct, I thank God that I avoided MMORPG genre for all my youth and that ESO has group content of good quality and amazing community so I can give up on unplayable (for me) overland without losing my characters.
That means you missed out on the Golden Age of MMORPG's.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »^ If that is all correct, I thank God that I avoided MMORPG genre for all my youth and that ESO has group content of good quality and amazing community so I can give up on unplayable (for me) overland without losing my characters.
That means you missed out on the Golden Age of MMORPG's.
I heard that games like Lineage 2 and WoW screwed so many lives, studies, careers, so I was sticking with single-player RPGs and multiplayer shooters for decade.. when ESO was released it was perceived in Skyrim's community as utter trash made not by Bethesda, so I avoided it too. Only "free week" and lack of decent new games lured me to ESO in 2018.. Bleakrock was so mind-dumbingly easy, crude and in-immersive that I was ready to quit, but arrival to Bal Foyen and actual big world sparked interest in me to visit all those places we read in TES books.1 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭
This is how ESO was at launch. Each zone scaled up in difficulty, so as you progressed through the story you'd gain level's, which would then let you move on to the next zone which was harder then the previous zone. Once you'd done one faction you would then move onto the even harder 'veteran' zones, which kept scaling up in difficulty as you progressed through the zones.Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Personaly I think even that does not go far enough. The game should become increasingly challenging in a moderate way as you gain levels and CP.
That is what your advocating - for ZOS to basically rework the game to be how it was before. Back to how it was when they were losing players faster than they could gain them. Back to when they had the choice of either revamping the game to 1T and try and rescue it or shut the whole game down.
If you think the same loss of players, the same loss of revenue, the same choice, etc won't happen again... then I have a plot of land I'd like to sell you. Because if ZOS was stupid enough to rework the game to how it was before, they would face the exact same problems again... and this time they would shut the game down IMO rather than spending even more money re-implementing 1T to try and save the game again.What are you on about games have not tried to cater to a hard core since B2P and F2P models hit the genre
Wildstar - flopped within a year. It advertised itself as the MMO for the hardcore, for those who remembered EQ1 & 2 fondly. After it died at launch, dev's rushed to make it F2P and add in a lot of casual friendly content... this is the only reason it lasted as long as it did.
GW2 - listened to the hardcore ppl like you & others who complained that the base game overland was way too easy and difficulty HAD to be ramped up. They made the expansion HoT way harder, less solo friendly, more group-focused... everything you & others call for. They suffered a 67% revenue loss due to players abandoning the game. Anet ended up majorly nerfing the expansion, making it more solo friendly, making it more easy and apologized for listening to the 'content must be harder' folk... all in an attempt to stop the revenue loss, which would lead to GW2 being shutdown within months had it continued at the rate it was.
WoW - trying to cater more to hardcore and raiders by forcing players into harder dungeon types and raids just to get through the past 2 expansions main story (not the conclusion mind you, but from midway onwards). It's one of the complaints I saw aired a lot of wow forums, reddit, etc that casual players were hitting a roadblock on the story, doing craft skills, etc due to being forced to do harder content than they wanted to do just to progress - these are ppl who didn't mind missing out on the conclusion... but now they were missing out on the last quarter/half of the story as well.Eq 1 early wow eq2 and ultima. They fathered this genre and that community kept the light on and made massive profits . It's why every Tom *** and harry started making garbage games to try and get a piece of the pie
Actually incorrect on the 'massive profits' thing - EQ 1 nor 2 never made MMO genre popular, nor did they get massive profits. It was WoW that broke the mold and made MMO's popular - it did this by making the genre accessible to casual players as well as hardcore. Unlike EQ1, EQ2, UO, etc it was a game where people could solo most content (open world quest's, main zone story quest's, etc). People flocked to it because it was made by Blizzard, was a Warcraft game... and because it was easy enough to not require grouping to play.
There's a reason why a lot of MMO's are referred to as "WoW clones" and not "EQ clones" or such.. it's because they saw WoW go flying past the 1-2 million player mark super fast, skyrocketing past 6 million in Burning Crusade expansion, and eventually capping up at 12-13 million players in WotLK days... and wanted in on the money. Eq1 & 2 never broke the 1-2 million player mark... why? Because they are old-school 'group or else' games. The game that caused the flurry of MMO's to crop up was WoW, because it was casual friendly and drew in the crowds... and thus brought in massive, massive profits. EQ1/2/UO *never* saw anywhere near the success or profits as WoW did, and it isn't what the vast majority of MMO's were trying to clone
I cant even . You read and interpret it how ever you want. Eq was projected to have 40 to 60 k subs and it would be profitable. It ended up with 600 9 months post launch. it was widely successful and sent Soe into stardom its first year. Yes wow broke the ceiling and it was not the friendly experience your describing at launch. lol it was far more hard core then Eq2.
As far as Eso I know exactly how it worked look at my damn join date. And no where in my post did I say we should go back to level locked zones . You need to friggin read and quit twisting your revisionist history of mmos . I was stating the game should in crease its difficulty at some point in the leveling process .
Number one wow launched 5 years after eq launched so it's hardly a father of the genre. Wows popularity had a lot to do with not only coming on a wildly successful IP and a massively lower system requirement then EQ 2 and star wars. Wow was basically EQ 1 .0 matter of fact many top notch reviewers praised it for sticking to the mold.
And mind you both Eq 1 and 2 are still going and making money so I dont see how a MMO staying online for almost 20 years is a failure. Wow did tons of stuff right and they took the genre to new heights.
And for the record the Ultima franchise made Ricahrd Garriot extremely wealthy . I understand you wanting to defend ESO but you need not , no one is attacking it they are making suggestions to help it cater to those who enjoy actuall MMOs not just the single player dynamic of the current design.
As far as GW2 pffft hardcore? It ruined itself with crappy zerg gameplay and a overly predatory cash shop. I'm not hard core that population does not exist anymore. And you obviously did not play wow from launch nor are you playing it now. Because it's far more hardcore then eso is currently and it was far more hardcore then eq 2 when they launched.simly advocating the game offer something more then its bland easy bake content it copies and pastes and sell as expansion.Edited by Wifeaggro13 on June 1, 2019 1:05AM6 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »^ If that is all correct, I thank God that I avoided MMORPG genre for all my youth and that ESO has group content of good quality and amazing community so I can give up on unplayable (for me) overland without losing my characters.
That means you missed out on the Golden Age of MMORPG's.
I heard that games like Lineage 2 and WoW screwed so many lives, studies, careers, so I was sticking with single-player RPGs and multiplayer shooters for decade.. when ESO was released it was perceived in Skyrim's community as utter trash made not by Bethesda, so I avoided it too. Only "free week" and lack of decent new games lured me to ESO in 2018.. Bleakrock was so mind-dumbingly easy, crude and in-immersive that I was ready to quit, but arrival to Bal Foyen and actual big world sparked interest in me to visit all those places we read in TES books.
I played WoW and RIFT before ESO. I'm still playing Oblivion and Skyrim, as I really enjoy TES games (with mods of course in those to change things up).
I'm not really invested in MMOs - I started this one due to friends who play and posted screenies. Such a gorgeous world. It's fun, I love it. But should I live long enough for TES VI, it will be months or years even before I play ESO again, assuming it's still around....0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes, landscapes are gorgeous and overall world size is breathtaking. I run tweaked graphics and reshade while in overland, so it looks like moderately modded Skyrim and sometimes I just switch to first person view, open inventory to prevent kick to login screen, turn off interface and enjoying the view while doing something IRL not far from PC. And it's pity that I can't experience here same gameplay we have in Skyrim, with actual combat, stealth, puzzles and so on.Sylvermynx wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »^ If that is all correct, I thank God that I avoided MMORPG genre for all my youth and that ESO has group content of good quality and amazing community so I can give up on unplayable (for me) overland without losing my characters.
That means you missed out on the Golden Age of MMORPG's.
I heard that games like Lineage 2 and WoW screwed so many lives, studies, careers, so I was sticking with single-player RPGs and multiplayer shooters for decade.. when ESO was released it was perceived in Skyrim's community as utter trash made not by Bethesda, so I avoided it too. Only "free week" and lack of decent new games lured me to ESO in 2018.. Bleakrock was so mind-dumbingly easy, crude and in-immersive that I was ready to quit, but arrival to Bal Foyen and actual big world sparked interest in me to visit all those places we read in TES books.
I played WoW and RIFT before ESO. I'm still playing Oblivion and Skyrim, as I really enjoy TES games (with mods of course in those to change things up).
I'm not really invested in MMOs - I started this one due to friends who play and posted screenies. Such a gorgeous world. It's fun, I love it. But should I live long enough for TES VI, it will be months or years even before I play ESO again, assuming it's still around....
2 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Yes, landscapes are gorgeous and overall world size is breathtaking. I run tweaked graphics and reshade while in overland, so it looks like moderately modded Skyrim and sometimes I just switch to first person view, open inventory to prevent kick to login screen, turn off interface and enjoying the view while doing something IRL not far from PC. And it's pity that I can't experience here same gameplay we have in Skyrim, with actual combat, stealth, puzzles and so on.Sylvermynx wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »^ If that is all correct, I thank God that I avoided MMORPG genre for all my youth and that ESO has group content of good quality and amazing community so I can give up on unplayable (for me) overland without losing my characters.
That means you missed out on the Golden Age of MMORPG's.
I heard that games like Lineage 2 and WoW screwed so many lives, studies, careers, so I was sticking with single-player RPGs and multiplayer shooters for decade.. when ESO was released it was perceived in Skyrim's community as utter trash made not by Bethesda, so I avoided it too. Only "free week" and lack of decent new games lured me to ESO in 2018.. Bleakrock was so mind-dumbingly easy, crude and in-immersive that I was ready to quit, but arrival to Bal Foyen and actual big world sparked interest in me to visit all those places we read in TES books.
I played WoW and RIFT before ESO. I'm still playing Oblivion and Skyrim, as I really enjoy TES games (with mods of course in those to change things up).
I'm not really invested in MMOs - I started this one due to friends who play and posted screenies. Such a gorgeous world. It's fun, I love it. But should I live long enough for TES VI, it will be months or years even before I play ESO again, assuming it's still around....
I've done that too. I'm a very visual person, and even though I love my gloomy grey Skyrim, ESO is so beautiful! And I do really enjoy the game and the stories. I'm hoping that the combat will be easier for me now with a better connection.1 -
RavenSworn✭✭✭✭✭Alrighty, just read the first 10 pages of this thread.
Going in with my thoughts though, I personally feel that overland is easy. And I also agree with the opinion that overland mobs need abit of a buff, or at least a bit of combat improvement, within the base game world itself. What I don't agree however is the introduction of a 'vet' overland mode, one that will effectively separate the new and veteran players. Launch did that, and it didn't go down well, to a point that 1T rejuvenated the game by opening up the zones.
Why harder mobs though in overland? Take a look at a different mmo, one that has 'Retail' and 'Classic'. (I shall just stick to those namesake so I don't invite heat from the mods) Retail makes you feel like a god, even while starting a new character, enabling you to wipe areas of starter mobs without breaking a sweat while Classic makes you feel like an adventurer, knowing that without careful planning, you'd likely end up having to corpse run back to your body. Both have their merits and cons, and both have players vouching for its greatness.
Retail: allows greater solo play. No worries on death. Less or sometimes no downtime between mobs. Less focus on gear and money, more on builds and constant gratification. Crafting is not needed. Easier to reach 'endgame'.
Classic: promotes group play. More downtime to interact with guildies. Gear means much more, money means more. Delayed gratification. Crafting is supplementary. A greater sense of progression.
Eso is in this unique position where it can be both 'retail' and 'classic' within the same game. Because of how the game is designed, you can do both solo and group play, you can craft items that will gain you significant boost to stats, you can play with your veteran friends without the world being irrelevant for them. That's the beauty of the current system and why I vehemently disagree with a vet overland mode.
Now I know there are many who oppose the idea of a harder overland, citing general chat, citing personal issues, friends, etc. I get that. But what I don't get is why it's hard for people to understand why the other side says it so.
The way I see it, harder overland promotes group play. Solo players can take it as a challenge but group play is the best. Now for a new player to learn this, it promotes them to understand why builds have to change depending on their circumstances. Why gear sharing is great in games like this. It enhances the community. When new players learn this, they are more prepared to enter group dungeons, because they already have a sense of group dynamics, early in their levelling. Yes there are instances of it in the current game right now with public dungeons, dolmen and world bosses and that's great. Let's enhance it by making slightly harder, not veteran hard but hard enough to promote both solo and group play. Even a slight increase of 10-15% mob health and attack damage would alleviate some of the issues here.Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.
Of Wolf and Raven
Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!1 -
navystylz_ESO✭✭✭✭Sylvermynx wrote: »Well, really people - the bottom line is I'm not at all disagreeing with a toggle or optional setting so those of you who want a harder/tougher/near-death experience get to have it.
Truthfully, I like exploring and mutzing around. I'm not into having to kill my way through zones. I really wish games provided quests that were non-combat oriented, RP type options. The Khenarthi's Roost quest to find the killer of the Silvenar, and to get the Maormer out of their hair - that was PERFECT as far as I'm concerned. Quests like that are what I most appreciate.
Really.... I just like soloing my way around, finding all the areas of the game, picking up stuff, and talking to NPCs. Doesn't mean I don't want the rest of you to have what you want, at all.
This could be a whole different thread, because making the questing more engaging wouldn't necessarily need to be harder if it was more fun based on an evolution from go and kill X, go and click Y.
This is the flip side to wanting quest bosses to feel more boss like, is changing it up from just kill, kill, kill. Would love more puzzles and stuff.0 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree with those who say that overland (including quests and delves) should stay as it is. It has exactly right difficulty. It is soloable with right approach and it will kill if the approach is wrong. I have 8 characters, 6 of them I have levelled strictly on daily delve quests. I almost never use food cause it is for dungeons.
With good gear and careful run I would keep my characters alive.
If I use 20-something gear on 40+ level character, its resistances and its damage are garbage, there is much more effort to stay alive. If I run through the delve and aggro more than 4 enemies, I would be in a position with zero stamina (because of running) for blocking or interrupting. Almost every single enemy has something to interrupt my character: rooting, entangling, silencing, disorientation... If you have no stamina, you are in trouble. If I would have zero self-heal skill because of the build for this character or because right now I'm levelling other skills and have no self-heal on the panel, then the chance to die for those 4+ enemies is very high.
I haven't finished Elsweyr story on live yet but I've done it on PTS. The last boss of the last quest is boring and tedious even for the high-level character. The reason is the so called mechanics. The fight is extremely long and not interesting at all. The good thing is that all other quest fights with quest bosses in the entire game are much better and much shorter for the experienced character (and player).The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.0 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭barney2525 wrote: »you know how to avoid giant's damage. 12 dodges. TWELVE. there is nothing that's going to be challenging for you, including something like Soul's because you know how to dodge that damage. and if you cannot dodge, then what is even the point?
How much damage are you inflicting when you dodge?
How does dodging it kill the monster?
And if you don't consider having to dodge it 12 or more times in order to have enough attacks to put it down,
WTF do you consider "A Challenge" ?????
rubs temples.
dodging allows you to avoid damage from monsters. which means YOU are not taking damage. which means as long as you are good with dodge timers, it doesn't matter how much damage the monster deals or how many times you dodge before you kill the monster, you are still not getting hit. someone who doesn't dodge as quickly? amount of damage monster deals is a difference between success and failure for them.
its kinda part of the reason why DLC dungeons are so impossible for so many people. its not that mechanics are super complicated. its that they don't allow any margins for error.
moreover, lets address things requiring more damage. in ESO that usually means that whatever these monsters are doing - they are going to ramp it up. a soft enrage if you will. if monsters are NOT ramping up, allowing someone with lower dps to still kill them? then its not extra challenging either you know for someone who wants challenge, just tedious for the person with lower dps.
for me at least challenge is difficulty in executing a mechanic. how quickly it hits, how little or how much margin for error there is. how quickly you have to act before you no longer have a chance to act and die instead. and here is the thing. the line of where it stops being fun and becomes impossible? is different for everyone. especially when it comes to content you can learn and memorize, you know anything AI based.
becasue are you all trying to tell me that combat is going to be more fun if you have to dodge 20 times instead of 12? you know, cause there is more health on a mob?
basically - I'm not convinced that ZoS can do enough to make something challenging enough long enough for all the different people with all the difference ideas of what is going to be just right for them... without negatively affecting those for whom current level of overworld difficulty is just fine. and yes taking time to creating multitude of "difficulties" means less time spent to create new content of any kind.
you all are just going to learn all the ins and outs and complain its too easy again, the way I've already seen people complain about DLC dungeons and how easy THEY are.
OK, so you are on the 'Don't Change Overland' side. So am I.
My previous point was toward the 'Make it harder' group. If all you are doing is dodging all the time and not inflicting damage, the monster never dies. And if you Need to dodge 12 or more times in order to survive long enough to kill the monster, I would consider that 'challenging'.
I completely agree that the 'make it harder' side will Never be satisfied because they Will learn ins and outs of every boss, thus making each of those fights "easier". What I don't get is why they absolutely refuse to understand the concept of Flavor in the game. I don't understand why Anyone who has ever played this type of game, all the way back to tabletop, would think that Every Single Monster you encounter en-route to a mission objective should be a live or die struggle. It is Not that way in Any game I have played in 40 years of gaming.
Makes no sense to me.
3 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I'm honestly genuinely not convinced that ZoS can create the optional version of more challenging overland that will actualy please even majority of people who are asking for it. I mean... even opinion on DLC dungeons and new trials is split with a fair number of people claiming that veteran versions are still either too easy or too gimmicky.
and while I don't actualy have anything against optional veteran zones, I'm not convinced that its worth the kind of time investment it would take to adjust them beyond just buffing health and outgoing damage , which for people who are good at dodging and the like is not going to increase the challenge by much, just time to kill things. and even sustain is not going to be much of a problem to someone who is used to practicing their weaving on a target dummy. adjustment of actual mechanics? will take a lot longer.
I would say - make a test zone, create next story DLC with 2 different difficulty options - baseline that has the same difficulty level as current overworld, and your vet version. its probably the easiest way to check if its worth it to add vet zones to the rest of the game, or even if its worth it to create new content from now on with this option added. given engagement and feedback DLC dungeons get... I'm not sure there will be enough demand or satisfaction, but who knows, I could be wrong.
P.S. I decided to do some daily delve quests on my new necromancers. fresh out of tutorial - its not completely unreasonable to try since they are accessible at main city, right there at the gate. i first tried wearing only what I got from tutorial, picking one skill from each class line and nothing else, cause that's all i had skill points for. no cp. no food or potions yet as you don't get any fresh out of tutorial it. as close to new player with their first character as I could manage. sucked. killing anything took forever and I nearly died to a troll that was guarding a skyshard. that is with moving out of the red, and interrupting his casts. if I were actual new player, that may have really given me a pause on whether I want to keep playing this game. it did not feel good. i'm not a fan of video game challenge and that felt challenging. but that very same thing obviously didn't feel challenging to you, which is kinda why i'm having doubts whether ZoS can actualy create something that will satisfy your craving for challenge. a simple act of distributing CP (not even all of cp, about 400ish points, I didn't feel like figuring out all of it, so I just got what I consider to be essentials) made that very same troll on my second necro - not only feel doable, but downright easy to kill. cp makes that much of a difference even for me. is it a problem with cp power creep? probably. its certainly not a problem for ME, I'm glad that this exists and makes the game feel smoother for me, a sort of a sign that yep - all that playing before is paying off. however its also, again, IMO is NOT a sign that overland should be buffed, with food required from the very beginning, etc.
[Edit to remove quoted content]Edited by [Deleted User] on June 1, 2019 6:38PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I do not “put” potions and food in the same category as weapons and skills. They’re already there and always have been. It’s a key aspect of character stats.
I don’t “min max” my drops-only newbie toons. The game asks nothing of me in its quests, absolutely zero requirements are needed to succeed. You think anyone with more than an infantilegrasp of the game should be locked out of even slightly engaging questing without throwing out every piece of knowledge the game teaches them.
And please ffs stop talking about WBs which NO ONE is complaining about when we mention Quest Bosses. Read what is being written.
No tools are available to make the game a challenge. “Don’t use gear” isn’t a tool. “Don’t dodge” isn’t a mechanic. “Don’t use drops” isn’t a system of challenge.
You claim people die all the time to quest bosses? Fine, show me quotes from people who find questing any kind of threat. Let see these player who are apparently completely unable to adapt in any way at all when one approach doesn’t work
Doing surveys led me to a spot in Craiglorn. But the location of the mat is right on the edge of group content and there is a single large troll type critter very close. Because of the rock wall and obstacles, without invisibility or a small detection area, if you try to reach the mats you Will attract the monster. Tried to kill it - Got absolutely annihilated. It wasn't close. The only way I could reach the mat was to move over there while I was rezzing.
And this is what the 'make it harder' crowd wants to wish on the entire game. Every single monster to be like that critter.
Yeah, and I know your comeback is that I have no skills, no idea what I'm doing, blah blah blahblah blah.
That's the standard excuse an elitist uses.
3 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭barney2525 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I do not “put” potions and food in the same category as weapons and skills. They’re already there and always have been. It’s a key aspect of character stats.
I don’t “min max” my drops-only newbie toons. The game asks nothing of me in its quests, absolutely zero requirements are needed to succeed. You think anyone with more than an infantilegrasp of the game should be locked out of even slightly engaging questing without throwing out every piece of knowledge the game teaches them.
And please ffs stop talking about WBs which NO ONE is complaining about when we mention Quest Bosses. Read what is being written.
No tools are available to make the game a challenge. “Don’t use gear” isn’t a tool. “Don’t dodge” isn’t a mechanic. “Don’t use drops” isn’t a system of challenge.
You claim people die all the time to quest bosses? Fine, show me quotes from people who find questing any kind of threat. Let see these player who are apparently completely unable to adapt in any way at all when one approach doesn’t work
Doing surveys led me to a spot in Craiglorn. But the location of the mat is right on the edge of group content and there is a single large troll type critter very close. Because of the rock wall and obstacles, without invisibility or a small detection area, if you try to reach the mats you Will attract the monster. Tried to kill it - Got absolutely annihilated. It wasn't close. The only way I could reach the mat was to move over there while I was rezzing.
And this is what the 'make it harder' crowd wants to wish on the entire game. Every single monster to be like that critter.
Yeah, and I know your comeback is that I have no skills, no idea what I'm doing, blah blah blahblah blah.
That's the standard excuse an elitist uses.
That troll is world boss, there is huge sign of it on your bar and on the map.2 -
RavenSworn✭✭✭✭✭barney2525 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I do not “put” potions and food in the same category as weapons and skills. They’re already there and always have been. It’s a key aspect of character stats.
I don’t “min max” my drops-only newbie toons. The game asks nothing of me in its quests, absolutely zero requirements are needed to succeed. You think anyone with more than an infantilegrasp of the game should be locked out of even slightly engaging questing without throwing out every piece of knowledge the game teaches them.
And please ffs stop talking about WBs which NO ONE is complaining about when we mention Quest Bosses. Read what is being written.
No tools are available to make the game a challenge. “Don’t use gear” isn’t a tool. “Don’t dodge” isn’t a mechanic. “Don’t use drops” isn’t a system of challenge.
You claim people die all the time to quest bosses? Fine, show me quotes from people who find questing any kind of threat. Let see these player who are apparently completely unable to adapt in any way at all when one approach doesn’t work
Doing surveys led me to a spot in Craiglorn. But the location of the mat is right on the edge of group content and there is a single large troll type critter very close. Because of the rock wall and obstacles, without invisibility or a small detection area, if you try to reach the mats you Will attract the monster. Tried to kill it - Got absolutely annihilated. It wasn't close. The only way I could reach the mat was to move over there while I was rezzing.
And this is what the 'make it harder' crowd wants to wish on the entire game. Every single monster to be like that critter.
Yeah, and I know your comeback is that I have no skills, no idea what I'm doing, blah blah blahblah blah.
That's the standard excuse an elitist uses.
So using pots, food, dodging, interrupting, not standing in red, upgrading your gear to the level needed, crafting or grouping up is elitist?
If you did get annihilated, ok. You res, you come back, you repair your gear. You look into how to kill it, maybe you need to use a different weapon, maybe just ask for help.
It is an mmo.Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.
Of Wolf and Raven
Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sylvermynx wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Yes, landscapes are gorgeous and overall world size is breathtaking. I run tweaked graphics and reshade while in overland, so it looks like moderately modded Skyrim and sometimes I just switch to first person view, open inventory to prevent kick to login screen, turn off interface and enjoying the view while doing something IRL not far from PC. And it's pity that I can't experience here same gameplay we have in Skyrim, with actual combat, stealth, puzzles and so on.Sylvermynx wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »^ If that is all correct, I thank God that I avoided MMORPG genre for all my youth and that ESO has group content of good quality and amazing community so I can give up on unplayable (for me) overland without losing my characters.
That means you missed out on the Golden Age of MMORPG's.
I heard that games like Lineage 2 and WoW screwed so many lives, studies, careers, so I was sticking with single-player RPGs and multiplayer shooters for decade.. when ESO was released it was perceived in Skyrim's community as utter trash made not by Bethesda, so I avoided it too. Only "free week" and lack of decent new games lured me to ESO in 2018.. Bleakrock was so mind-dumbingly easy, crude and in-immersive that I was ready to quit, but arrival to Bal Foyen and actual big world sparked interest in me to visit all those places we read in TES books.
I played WoW and RIFT before ESO. I'm still playing Oblivion and Skyrim, as I really enjoy TES games (with mods of course in those to change things up).
I'm not really invested in MMOs - I started this one due to friends who play and posted screenies. Such a gorgeous world. It's fun, I love it. But should I live long enough for TES VI, it will be months or years even before I play ESO again, assuming it's still around....
I've done that too. I'm a very visual person, and even though I love my gloomy grey Skyrim, ESO is so beautiful! And I do really enjoy the game and the stories. I'm hoping that the combat will be easier for me now with a better connection.
I hope that new provider helps! I don't know how you manage to play with 1000+ ping... I'll quit online gaming long ago with such connection.
And that's why I want this "veteran instance" only as optional feature. OP was wrong to put it like in original post, if he mentioned it is optional content, there will be less resistance obviously.
Btw, OP gathered a fair share of agrees so it's not like only him, I and couple of either guys want this.0 -
FierceSam✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.
Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.
they should NOT be a requirement for overworld. encouraged =/= must under all circumstances.
Its basic feature matter o fact your starting inventory it's right there. I dont know , I really feel like people expect the game to play it for them. I mean even solitaire has a challenge to it. No one is asking for lvl one to be skin of your neck encounters. People are asking for some sort of progression or at least a sliding scale so you can adjust. Lvl 1 you should be able to light attack and not use skills. But by level 50 the game should have increased the difficulty moderately along the way.
sigh. potions and food are required for dungeons, they are optional for overworld. as it should be.
to summarize, becasue you all keep side tracking and changing your angles.
the core of the argument. overworld is NOT too easy, its currently exactly where it should be.
Quest bosses
Not overland trash, BOSSES
Stop pretending like anyone is asking for every trash mob to be vet dungeon level difficulty
Except that is EXACTLY what the OP is asking for.
4 -
Aireal✭✭✭
I suppose.
personaly the very reason i dont do and will never do "dead is dead" sort of character is becasue video games are the ONLY medium that allows redo's in RL dead is dead is the ONLY way. you make a mistake? you live with it. or die from it. the very thing that attracts me to video games is ability to do over and not be penalized for it. a true, genuine do over.
I also don't level as fast as possible. I enjoy the stories. I am that person who keeps arguing for solo dungeons, true solo dungeons, not "git gud" version - just to be able to fully enjoy the stories and the environment.
and while I'm a very casual climber - I did go on more then one mountain hike and the feeling of standing at the top with a hawk circling overhead while everything bellow you is so small, like looking into a miniature panorama .. or the quiet stillness of a part of a skydive just after you opened your parachute and are floating down slowly enough that high enough it feels like floating in place above the cloud... NOTHING in video games could ever replicate it. and honestly, i personaly never look for that anyways. for me the safety of the video game IS the fun. you can do and try things in video games that you can't or shouldn't try in real life. that's kinda the big part of the point for me.
I know. i KNOW that different people play differently and that's why I'm in full support of existence of games that specifically cater to those preferences. but i'm NOT in support of changing existing game that just so happens to mostly cater to MY preferences - away from that. when ESO didn't work for me? I left. I'm here, arguing against all these "game is too easy" posts because I don't want to leave in case I'm silent and developers end up changing the game after all, thinking that all of their audience agrees.
Absolutely.
I know Dead is Dead isn't for everyone... The very first time I played DiD, it wasn't on purpose at all, sounds odd huh? 300 hr's on that character, "Dragon Hunter" ... While I am pretty sure it was a glitch, Lorn and his crew were all 'healing' from a fight with one dragon ( from word wall ) and an Ancient dragon spawned. 5 minutes later, the other 3 were on there knee's and Lorn was at 1/2 health and another "Dragon" flew in. I watched him rag doll down a cliff... and try as I might after reload, I never reconnected and I gave him an honorable funeral.. at least in my head. This was on 360.. no mods.
Life is about the journey...cause it all ends the same0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.
Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.
they should NOT be a requirement for overworld. encouraged =/= must under all circumstances.
Its basic feature matter o fact your starting inventory it's right there. I dont know , I really feel like people expect the game to play it for them. I mean even solitaire has a challenge to it. No one is asking for lvl one to be skin of your neck encounters. People are asking for some sort of progression or at least a sliding scale so you can adjust. Lvl 1 you should be able to light attack and not use skills. But by level 50 the game should have increased the difficulty moderately along the way.
sigh. potions and food are required for dungeons, they are optional for overworld. as it should be.
to summarize, becasue you all keep side tracking and changing your angles.
the core of the argument. overworld is NOT too easy, its currently exactly where it should be.
Its really not . It's the same difficulty at lvl 1 as it is at lvl cp 320 fully geared. That means your character actually gets weaker as you lvl not stronger.
its... not. at early levels the game buffs you in order to entice you, then the game gets harder, until you get better at it, etc. at which point it becomes easier and easier. which is kinda the point. you as a player have gotten more powerful, because you understand the game better. its as it should be.
moreover.... if your character wasn't getting more powerful, then how in a world can the argument of "the overworld is too easy" even exist?? its contradictory to claim that the world is too easy, while also claiming that your character is not getting any more powerful.
Look these overland threads are dime a dozen. Its painfully obvious there are problems with Zos scaling with the long term player. It baffles me when the community brings a suggestion , the fan will automatically defend . I get it you like the overland faceroll easy it's fine. But many of the playerbase want some sort of additional challenge.2
