Seriously, this game is too easy and the overworld needs to be buffed heavily.

Wifeaggro13

Grandesdar wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Devanear wrote: »

I enjoy it as it is. There's harder content in the game for those that enjoy that. I'm playing for the story not the challenge. Not everything in the game has to cater to the same type of players. If this game would suddenly become much harder I would just quit and play some other game where I can enjoy a good story and relax a little.

There really isn't. Trials and vet dlc dungeons are a jok ewhen you go there with a proper group. ESO PvE is too easy, and it's not just overland.

Then it's high time for you to go outside and have a life. Honestly, when I hear such comments "vet trials are too ez" they are either trying hard to impress or have like 12 maxed out toons and been playing 8 hours a day for years.

The game overland content is no way easy, I just got like 3 FPS centered friends starting ESO 2 weeks ago, oh boy, the pain we go through to keep them alive and interested.

But if you have CPs, extensive game knowledge, know animation cancelling, know how to work a build and the tricks of the combat system, then yeah, it should be easy for you. Duh.

What the heck are your friends doing taking naps in red? It near impossible to die in overland pve. I could see there would be a mild adjustment for a call of duty player. But FPS games are far harder then Eso

Wifeaggro13

MikaHR wrote: »

Mitaka211 wrote: »

I agree , i really enjoy the vet dungeons but the world content is way too easy. The fact you can solo world bosses is unacceptable to me. Hard content motivates people to group together simple as that. All the games that tried to please casual players became shallow and a bore to play.
It is not about whining or whatever it is just a fact.

Take mino for example or the imperfect. Cool bosses sure. But me being able to solo them while drinking coffee and smoking a cigarette , while watching a tv show in the background really speaks for itself doesn't it.

All games that tried to cater to hardcores are dead or had to be completely reworked...including launch ESO.

It is just a fact.

What are you on about games have not tried to cater to a hard core since B2P and F2P models hit the genre. At least 12 years ago. For the record they catered to that population because those are the people that stayed subscribed for 12 or more months consecutive. Casuals spent their money on Ebay buying crap from the hard core lol and subbed every couple of months out of a year.since 2008 not one game has tried to cater to a hard core. What's killed games is poor management post launch content and trying to make a game a casual would subscribe for long term. Post launch retention is a thing of the past now with B2P and cash shops.all you need to do is sell copies and gate your features behind pay walls. Personaly I prefer the old games. They may have been smaller but the friends you made there transitioned for generations of games. I still play with people I met in 1999 in eq 1

barney2525

Linaleah wrote: »

you know how to avoid giant's damage. 12 dodges. TWELVE. there is nothing that's going to be challenging for you, including something like Soul's because you know how to dodge that damage. and if you cannot dodge, then what is even the point?

How much damage are you inflicting when you dodge?

How does dodging it kill the monster?

And if you don't consider having to dodge it 12 or more times in order to have enough attacks to put it down,

WTF do you consider "A Challenge" ?????

barney2525

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Chadak wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Why don't you remove all your CP's, and take your gear off if you want difficulty for the sake of difficulty?

People already have, and it’s still pointlessly easy

barney2525 wrote: »

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

You are right. No one mentioned the rewards.

But no one ever mentions their Real ultimate goals either.

Must be really nice for people like you to pull absolutely BS out their arse to attack that argument, rather than the on-going actual discussion. You have NEVER gotten good rewards from quest content. NEVER. So this fixation and pretending peopel thinking overland content is too easy because they want better rewards is just inane. Stop. Just stop.

Nope

If you had paid any attention, you would have seen I have been addressing the issue.

The idea that the Main Focus of this or any other game of this type is to have the "wandering monsters" be the most dangerous and horribly hard for characters to kill is just plain ridiculous. The character needs to get from point A to point B to pursue the actual Mission (whatever it may be). Overland is simply Filler. It's Nuisance. It is DESIGNED to be minimal effort - especially for higher powered characters. To think otherwise makes no sense. It is NOT a Major part of the game.

So, if I see someone so adamant about Making it some Major part of the game, I start wondering Why. It's Not because "it's too easy". That would be something you complain about if you get to a world boss and it falls over in 3 hits.

That's Not what Overland is. Overland is Not Supposed to be hard, and it is functioning Exactly as it is supposed to. You tell me - WHY DOES ANYONE CARE THAT IS IS EASY TO GET FROM POINT A TO POINT B?


IMHO

I can run through everything just like I would with CP and gear on. There's virtually no chance of me dying against trash mobs, even the "bosses" of quests are not a challenge. When we talk about the game being too easy, this is the number one issue.

But you know some of us, actually want a little bit of a challenge, we want to die to trash mobs if we aggro too many, ESPECIALLY in the overworld. Some of us want the bosses of quests or delves to be actually challenging

From the OP. And many of us clarified our positions with not including PBs, Dolmen, WBs. Explaining that the penultimate boss of a quest chain should feel like a boss. Though I have mentioned delves several times not included in the 'overland', I thought he meant the delve bosses that quests had you do, rather than the rando you kill because it's sits in there.

It is NOT a Major part of the game.

It's a majority of the game. Most of the content is questing stuff that is overland and where that brings you. The content added each chapter and DLC, which continuously treats the whole world like it's an afterthought. That would have us suspend disbelief but tell us majordomo X is so powerful, and he dies in 2 hits.

Most of the time I quest I feel resentment that quest bits aren't instanced, that not only do I have to deal with extremely easy bosses, but there's a good chance some random person runs in and starts nuking them too. Now boss that I could kill in a few hits myself, instantly dies completely destroying any immersion in the story.

Maybe I'm older than you are, But Nobody complains this hard about something this insignificant without having Something else that they want to accomplish.

Could be. Maybe not. Or could be that people just are incapable of arguing a position as stated. How hard is it to understand that this game with every chapter and DLC release, brings for another story arc. One that can be smashed through solo, but generally have a bunch of other players smashing through with you, extremely easily.

I came to the forums because after doing Elsweyr completion I just felt cheated. Most of the story was good but I left it feeling like the experience was cheapened by how easy it was. This left me feeling bored and wondering if that aspect of the game was even worth paying more money for.

At least in GW2 the living season come free as long as you are logged in during a particular bit. ESO makes you pay for it and the only reason I feel like this chapter was worth it is because the Necromancer. But I began to question redoing all the content of my original main on the new necromancer was actually going to keep me occupied without feeling like it was so easy that the story completion would leave me feeling more bored than entertained.

This is why I came to the forums. And lo and behold, right there on the first page was this thread with other people expressing the exact same concerns I was feeling.

I don't need more rewards. I don't need anything else except not feeling bored to tears doing the story content which makes up a majority of this game, and is only bearable when the storytelling is superb, which isn't always the case.

Disagree.

It's Not a Majority of the game because IF you want you can simply avoid it - Completely.

You do not have to fight Anything if you don't Choose to.

It Can't be considered a ' Majority ' of the game if it can be simply ignored.

I could not even estimate the many many many characters I have seen running across my screen, being pursued by several mobs. It's not that the character could not stop and kill them. The player just has better things to do - like reaching their actual objective and participating in whatever that issue is.

Overland is Flavor.

Now you’re just outright lying

Questing is not avoidable in any way. You need it for Psijic. You need it for crafting area access. You need it to have access to many dailies. You need it for skill points. You need it for Soul Magic. You need it to experience a damn story

You’re not some old wisened Yoda, you’re just being a nuisance who clearly has no interest in actual debate, who believes all players are infantile creatures that would immediately throw out the whole game if a quest boss actually had a chance to kill them.

Then start removing points from all your passives, and use only one bar, and don't LA weave. Just keep going down the list until you've found the right level of "difficulty" for yourself, then play the rest of the game that way.

That's like suggesting if someone is too smart for a class they should take a crowbar to their head until they are brain damaged enough to where that class challenges them - instead of seeking out a more challenging class they could actually have fun learning in.

It's preposterous.

In the context of a game with pre defined parameters, that's what you need to do if that is the thrill you seek.

I don't find purposely gimping myself thrilling. I find it stupid. In any context.

Then you aren't interested in challenge.

Move along.

Challenge is key part of gameplay, but not the only part. Another essential part of any RPG is your build. You may go for full glass-cannon build in VMA for example with reward of higher scores but this will require times more skill then completing VMA as petsorc or WW. But in overland even if you are full glass cannon you still cannot die.. so if you remove your armor etc you will simply kill mobs longer, but they still can't kill you if you do basic actions like not standing in aoe and blocking/dodging heavy attacks. So now you will propose not to dodge aoes and heavy attacks? what's left of gameplay then? you don't have build, you can't use CP perks which unlock mechanics, you can't use active defense, you can't use heals.. so you just stay in front of mobs in aoe light attacking them and then you finally die and feel accomplishment - "I finally found challenge"?

I know.

The whole point of an RPG is to make your character more powerful by collecting gear and experience. This idea that you should remove all of that to try and make the game more fun is like saying you should get rid of the football to have fun on a football field. It defeats the whole purpose of the game itself - at which point there is really no point in playing it at all.

Um. Have to disagree. The whole point of an RPG is that I have fun playing it. And RP'ing it. Right now, with new faster 'net, I'm going to be able to do stuff I haven't been able to do before - like bar swapping.... And I'm going to fully enjoy that. But the bottom line for me is - I am having fun in this game.

When it stops being fun, I'll stop playing it. Making overland harder? Eh, nope thanks. I play games (especially TES) for the stories.

Now.... I'm on board for a toggle that gives people like you a DiD option. Go for it, ZOS. And when you die repeatedly.... well... remember you asked for it.

Hit dog barks.

he is right historically this is the way things work in RPG's from pen and paper in the 70's to all iterations and eras of pc gaming. i dont know when you started playing RPG's but i started with 2nd edition DND in the 80s and played the first ultima on a apple 2 the core of the game play was you get more powerful as you level and attain gear which in turn gives you access to greater challenges.

MAN! Those were good times!

Cudos for the Nostalgia break

Kolache

Grandesdar wrote: »

The game overland content is no way easy, I just got like 3 FPS centered friends starting ESO 2 weeks ago, oh boy, the pain we go through to keep them alive and interested.

I'm not calling you a liar but I really don't understand this. Perhaps witnessing this would enlighten me and change my opinion on some of this stuff. Granted, every friend I've introduced to the game was already a gamer, but they struggled about as much as I did the first time I played ESO at release. Why isn't Doshia dying? Oh duh, I need to kill the orbs. Even back then you could get by with just jabs on your action bar, which is why so many bots did just fine.

My experience bringing friends into the game was pretty much the opposite of yours after 1T. They want to play the game with me so I create a new character. We run around in public dungeons together because that's the only place we can both sometimes be in combat together at the same time. It still results in me holding my attacks and waiting for them to get in a hit before something dies.

Ok lets join a dungeon group, dungeons are harder right? *4 DPS in queue burns through everything in the dungeon* Nope, the same. So I say "just go level, do the quests, explore the world, it'll get better at end-game. None of them get to end-game, they all get bored along the way.

1T did a lot of great things for the game. It sort of saved ESO's life, IMO. But all-scaling, all-levels in the same areas etc system needs to evolve.

MartiniDaniels

Grandesdar wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Devanear wrote: »

I enjoy it as it is. There's harder content in the game for those that enjoy that. I'm playing for the story not the challenge. Not everything in the game has to cater to the same type of players. If this game would suddenly become much harder I would just quit and play some other game where I can enjoy a good story and relax a little.

There really isn't. Trials and vet dlc dungeons are a jok ewhen you go there with a proper group. ESO PvE is too easy, and it's not just overland.

Then it's high time for you to go outside and have a life. Honestly, when I hear such comments "vet trials are too ez" they are either trying hard to impress or have like 12 maxed out toons and been playing 8 hours a day for years.

The game overland content is no way easy, I just got like 3 FPS centered friends starting ESO 2 weeks ago, oh boy, the pain we go through to keep them alive and interested.

But if you have CPs, extensive game knowledge, know animation cancelling, know how to work a build and the tricks of the combat system, then yeah, it should be easy for you. Duh.

They are probably jumping off the cliffs and stay in aoes just to check if that is possible to die in ESO overland?
Though I agree completed on in "interested" part. It's really hard work to keep yourself interested in overland. For me it should be at least new role-playing idea and outfit/costume, and then some idea for combat like roll-dodging all hits and heavy attacking off-balanced enemies to knockdown them etc

MikaHR

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Mitaka211 wrote: »

I agree , i really enjoy the vet dungeons but the world content is way too easy. The fact you can solo world bosses is unacceptable to me. Hard content motivates people to group together simple as that. All the games that tried to please casual players became shallow and a bore to play.
It is not about whining or whatever it is just a fact.

Take mino for example or the imperfect. Cool bosses sure. But me being able to solo them while drinking coffee and smoking a cigarette , while watching a tv show in the background really speaks for itself doesn't it.

All games that tried to cater to hardcores are dead or had to be completely reworked...including launch ESO.

It is just a fact.

What are you on about games have to tried to cater to a hard core since B2P and F2P models hit the genre. At least 12 years ago. For the record they catered to that population because those are the people that stayed subscribed for 12 or more months consecutive. Casuals spent their money on Ebay buying crap from the hard core lol and subbed every couple of months out of a year.since 2008 not one game has tried to cater to a hard core. What's killed games is poor management post launch content and trying to make a game a casual would subscribe for long term. Post launch retention is a thing of the past now with B2P and cash shops.all you need to do is sell copies and gate your features behind pay walls. Personaly I prefer the old games. They may have been smaller but the friends you made there transitioned for generations of games. I still play with people I met in 1999 in eq 1

tl;dr - hardores dont keep the lights on...a hard lesson that all of these games had to learn.

The best example Wildstar that was specifically aimed at hardores....didnt lat a year.

Linaleah

Aireal wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Aireal wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.

Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.

I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.

its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint

Umm no.. So by that your saying that the moment that you get to the top of Denali, Mountain climbing is no longer a challenge? What about Everest?? Mt Hood... Each climb is different, has its own nuances, dangers.

So I can play a S & B Stam.. and take little damage cause the other dude's sword only hit's my shield.. does that mean I know how to commit the perfect assassination with a dagger? Pickpocket 100 people with no bounty?

OH.. just fighting right? for challenge... Use a bow and make perfect long distance shots ( not multiple, one at a time ).. Be a Sorc with no pet and not ever die...

Challenge comes in all shapes and sizes.. and is limited to what people think of as a challenge. What some people call a ridicules gimp I call fun as Hades.. and a challenge worth doing.

So your LvL 1-50 char can run around virtually naked with no weapons and never die.. Soooo what's after lvl 50?

I can understand people thinking the OW is to easy, because they have skill.. and 310CP with the gear and buff's to go with it.. Ever thought of starting another character and not min/maxing it? Does everything have to be done on one character?

I guess I have a different idea of Role Playing.. cause I've never cared about rewards, how high a lvl my character can get to.. how hard the fight is... what I care about.. their story.

JMO...

climbing is actualy a small hobby of mine. I go to a local climbing gym mostly. and here is the thing... you go there often enough... more often then they reset the wall to create different routes and you eventually hit the wall figuratively speaking. either routes are no longer challenging becasue you know exactly which handholds to use in which order, cause you have learned them at this point... or they are too difficult because you don't have the strength, or flexibility, or both. there is no in between, until they add new routes and even then, it only takes a few climbs to learn them and they become easy, relatively speaking - again.

and there are some climbs, especially real life climbs that will always be challenging becasue even once you memorize them - they still require great deal of precision, flexibility and strength. no matter how well you know the routes. but those climbs? are also inaccessible to hobbyist like me.

which... is exactly the point I've been making.

now, to keep going with climbing analogy. if you are already strong and experienced, you may go to a climbing gym and NONE of the routes are particularly difficult for you, because experience allows you to learn faster, compensate with strength, etc. and then there are people who are just starting out and even the easiest route cam be a challenge for them, becasue they are new and still building up their strength. so in that - everyone has a different STARTING point when it comes to challenge. but.... once you learn a route and/or get stronger? it still comes down to that dreaded binary. you either CAN do it. or you cannot.

people here who complain about things being too easy? they are that experienced climber who loses all sense of challenge once they learn the route (or mechanics) unless the route is so difficult as to allow little to no margin for error. aka DLC veteran dungeons. which so many people have been BEGGING to be separated from general random queue, because they are too long and too hard.

You know what the difference in climbing the same exact gym 'wall' and climbing the exact same route on the face of Yosemite is?

Death.... or the chance there of. Yes...yes, safety lines etc...

I know not everyone get's a chance... 3 friends, 1 suv.. camping, climbing gear, and/ or scuba gear. My late 20's, early 30's.. My phone rang, didn't ask who it was, I asked where are we going! Sometimes it was down to the Keys.. and off on an underwater adventure. sometimes they decided to cave dive ( I was certified, but <shudder> nope ) I did outside or up top.. Maybe to Tn or Ky, North GA to climb a short cliff face.

It wasn't always just the climb or dive.... It was also the journey... So yeah, now my idea of danger is Wal-mart and just hiking in a state park is adventurous enough.. physically.

Game challenge? No matter how difficult, If it doesn't come with consequences for failure.. it's not much of a challenge... It's a different mindset, that's all. I'm all about the journey, the story.. until it's all about the challenge.. and then it has to have failure consequences....otherwise.. what's the point?

I understand the need for difficulty after one reaches a really high level and you have worked for it.

Your piton pulls loose and you pray in those few seconds that the next holds... and the next, until you jerk to a stop. Your heart is thumping and it isn't until you are hugging rock again that you look down and gulp.. and then, look up and continue to climb.

but we are talking. about. a video game. nothing in a video game is going to have consequences of even as small as losing a grip of the gym wall and getting a small weggie from a loose rope going taut to catch you. nothing in a video game CAN. expecting it to give you anything even close to a thrill of even a gym climb is just.... misguided.

Linaleah

Jhalin wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.

Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.

I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.

its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint

Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?

and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.

again.

meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.

Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.

You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.

I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).

1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.

1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.

You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?

I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.

and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.

Linaleah

barney2525 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

you know how to avoid giant's damage. 12 dodges. TWELVE. there is nothing that's going to be challenging for you, including something like Soul's because you know how to dodge that damage. and if you cannot dodge, then what is even the point?

How much damage are you inflicting when you dodge?

How does dodging it kill the monster?

And if you don't consider having to dodge it 12 or more times in order to have enough attacks to put it down,

WTF do you consider "A Challenge" ?????

rubs temples.

dodging allows you to avoid damage from monsters. which means YOU are not taking damage. which means as long as you are good with dodge timers, it doesn't matter how much damage the monster deals or how many times you dodge before you kill the monster, you are still not getting hit. someone who doesn't dodge as quickly? amount of damage monster deals is a difference between success and failure for them.

its kinda part of the reason why DLC dungeons are so impossible for so many people. its not that mechanics are super complicated. its that they don't allow any margins for error.

moreover, lets address things requiring more damage. in ESO that usually means that whatever these monsters are doing - they are going to ramp it up. a soft enrage if you will. if monsters are NOT ramping up, allowing someone with lower dps to still kill them? then its not extra challenging either you know for someone who wants challenge, just tedious for the person with lower dps.

for me at least challenge is difficulty in executing a mechanic. how quickly it hits, how little or how much margin for error there is. how quickly you have to act before you no longer have a chance to act and die instead. and here is the thing. the line of where it stops being fun and becomes impossible? is different for everyone. especially when it comes to content you can learn and memorize, you know anything AI based.

becasue are you all trying to tell me that combat is going to be more fun if you have to dodge 20 times instead of 12? you know, cause there is more health on a mob?

basically - I'm not convinced that ZoS can do enough to make something challenging enough long enough for all the different people with all the difference ideas of what is going to be just right for them... without negatively affecting those for whom current level of overworld difficulty is just fine. and yes taking time to creating multitude of "difficulties" means less time spent to create new content of any kind.

you all are just going to learn all the ins and outs and complain its too easy again, the way I've already seen people complain about DLC dungeons and how easy THEY are.

ZOS_RogerJ

Just a friendly reminder to keep the thread civil, on-topic, and constructive.

Aireal

Linaleah wrote: »

Aireal wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Aireal wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.

Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.

I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.

its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint

Umm no.. So by that your saying that the moment that you get to the top of Denali, Mountain climbing is no longer a challenge? What about Everest?? Mt Hood... Each climb is different, has its own nuances, dangers.

So I can play a S & B Stam.. and take little damage cause the other dude's sword only hit's my shield.. does that mean I know how to commit the perfect assassination with a dagger? Pickpocket 100 people with no bounty?

OH.. just fighting right? for challenge... Use a bow and make perfect long distance shots ( not multiple, one at a time ).. Be a Sorc with no pet and not ever die...

Challenge comes in all shapes and sizes.. and is limited to what people think of as a challenge. What some people call a ridicules gimp I call fun as Hades.. and a challenge worth doing.

So your LvL 1-50 char can run around virtually naked with no weapons and never die.. Soooo what's after lvl 50?

I can understand people thinking the OW is to easy, because they have skill.. and 310CP with the gear and buff's to go with it.. Ever thought of starting another character and not min/maxing it? Does everything have to be done on one character?

I guess I have a different idea of Role Playing.. cause I've never cared about rewards, how high a lvl my character can get to.. how hard the fight is... what I care about.. their story.

JMO...

climbing is actualy a small hobby of mine. I go to a local climbing gym mostly. and here is the thing... you go there often enough... more often then they reset the wall to create different routes and you eventually hit the wall figuratively speaking. either routes are no longer challenging becasue you know exactly which handholds to use in which order, cause you have learned them at this point... or they are too difficult because you don't have the strength, or flexibility, or both. there is no in between, until they add new routes and even then, it only takes a few climbs to learn them and they become easy, relatively speaking - again.

and there are some climbs, especially real life climbs that will always be challenging becasue even once you memorize them - they still require great deal of precision, flexibility and strength. no matter how well you know the routes. but those climbs? are also inaccessible to hobbyist like me.

which... is exactly the point I've been making.

now, to keep going with climbing analogy. if you are already strong and experienced, you may go to a climbing gym and NONE of the routes are particularly difficult for you, because experience allows you to learn faster, compensate with strength, etc. and then there are people who are just starting out and even the easiest route cam be a challenge for them, becasue they are new and still building up their strength. so in that - everyone has a different STARTING point when it comes to challenge. but.... once you learn a route and/or get stronger? it still comes down to that dreaded binary. you either CAN do it. or you cannot.

people here who complain about things being too easy? they are that experienced climber who loses all sense of challenge once they learn the route (or mechanics) unless the route is so difficult as to allow little to no margin for error. aka DLC veteran dungeons. which so many people have been BEGGING to be separated from general random queue, because they are too long and too hard.

You know what the difference in climbing the same exact gym 'wall' and climbing the exact same route on the face of Yosemite is?

Death.... or the chance there of. Yes...yes, safety lines etc...

I know not everyone get's a chance... 3 friends, 1 suv.. camping, climbing gear, and/ or scuba gear. My late 20's, early 30's.. My phone rang, didn't ask who it was, I asked where are we going! Sometimes it was down to the Keys.. and off on an underwater adventure. sometimes they decided to cave dive ( I was certified, but <shudder> nope ) I did outside or up top.. Maybe to Tn or Ky, North GA to climb a short cliff face.

It wasn't always just the climb or dive.... It was also the journey... So yeah, now my idea of danger is Wal-mart and just hiking in a state park is adventurous enough.. physically.

Game challenge? No matter how difficult, If it doesn't come with consequences for failure.. it's not much of a challenge... It's a different mindset, that's all. I'm all about the journey, the story.. until it's all about the challenge.. and then it has to have failure consequences....otherwise.. what's the point?

I understand the need for difficulty after one reaches a really high level and you have worked for it.

Your piton pulls loose and you pray in those few seconds that the next holds... and the next, until you jerk to a stop. Your heart is thumping and it isn't until you are hugging rock again that you look down and gulp.. and then, look up and continue to climb.

but we are talking. about. a video game. nothing in a video game is going to have consequences of even as small as losing a grip of the gym wall and getting a small weggie from a loose rope going taut to catch you. nothing in a video game CAN. expecting it to give you anything even close to a thrill of even a gym climb is just.... misguided.

hmm guess it's hard to explain the investment in a character.. the care at which you play.. when you know that their are consequences to 'your' ( meaning MY ) bad play choices... It's called death.. Death of the character.

Everyone plays different... I don't expect 99% of people to 'get' playing Dead is Dead.. that's fine.. I don't 'get' leveling as fast as possible, (nothing wrong with doing that.. ) just to get to higher level content. I don't play DiD until the game feel's "too easy" and not a challenge any other way..but I know I still have content I want to see.

And no.. nothing in a game can beat the sheer heart thumping feeling of even climbing to the top of mt Yonah in GA.. or seeing a pod of dolphins that zip by.. being surrounded by Skip Jack.. knowing that the bigger tuna's and other predators are close. Feeling the wind in your face as your sailboard skims the top of a wave and then is flying for a time... Landing a 50lbs Tarpon on 'light' tackle.

<sigh> very far afield... I've said it before, I find the difficulty fine the way it is.. when it isn't, then I will find a way to make it work for me.. or move on.

Linaleah

Aireal wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Aireal wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Aireal wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.

Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.

I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.

its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint

Umm no.. So by that your saying that the moment that you get to the top of Denali, Mountain climbing is no longer a challenge? What about Everest?? Mt Hood... Each climb is different, has its own nuances, dangers.

So I can play a S & B Stam.. and take little damage cause the other dude's sword only hit's my shield.. does that mean I know how to commit the perfect assassination with a dagger? Pickpocket 100 people with no bounty?

OH.. just fighting right? for challenge... Use a bow and make perfect long distance shots ( not multiple, one at a time ).. Be a Sorc with no pet and not ever die...

Challenge comes in all shapes and sizes.. and is limited to what people think of as a challenge. What some people call a ridicules gimp I call fun as Hades.. and a challenge worth doing.

So your LvL 1-50 char can run around virtually naked with no weapons and never die.. Soooo what's after lvl 50?

I can understand people thinking the OW is to easy, because they have skill.. and 310CP with the gear and buff's to go with it.. Ever thought of starting another character and not min/maxing it? Does everything have to be done on one character?

I guess I have a different idea of Role Playing.. cause I've never cared about rewards, how high a lvl my character can get to.. how hard the fight is... what I care about.. their story.

JMO...

climbing is actualy a small hobby of mine. I go to a local climbing gym mostly. and here is the thing... you go there often enough... more often then they reset the wall to create different routes and you eventually hit the wall figuratively speaking. either routes are no longer challenging becasue you know exactly which handholds to use in which order, cause you have learned them at this point... or they are too difficult because you don't have the strength, or flexibility, or both. there is no in between, until they add new routes and even then, it only takes a few climbs to learn them and they become easy, relatively speaking - again.

and there are some climbs, especially real life climbs that will always be challenging becasue even once you memorize them - they still require great deal of precision, flexibility and strength. no matter how well you know the routes. but those climbs? are also inaccessible to hobbyist like me.

which... is exactly the point I've been making.

now, to keep going with climbing analogy. if you are already strong and experienced, you may go to a climbing gym and NONE of the routes are particularly difficult for you, because experience allows you to learn faster, compensate with strength, etc. and then there are people who are just starting out and even the easiest route cam be a challenge for them, becasue they are new and still building up their strength. so in that - everyone has a different STARTING point when it comes to challenge. but.... once you learn a route and/or get stronger? it still comes down to that dreaded binary. you either CAN do it. or you cannot.

people here who complain about things being too easy? they are that experienced climber who loses all sense of challenge once they learn the route (or mechanics) unless the route is so difficult as to allow little to no margin for error. aka DLC veteran dungeons. which so many people have been BEGGING to be separated from general random queue, because they are too long and too hard.

You know what the difference in climbing the same exact gym 'wall' and climbing the exact same route on the face of Yosemite is?

Death.... or the chance there of. Yes...yes, safety lines etc...

I know not everyone get's a chance... 3 friends, 1 suv.. camping, climbing gear, and/ or scuba gear. My late 20's, early 30's.. My phone rang, didn't ask who it was, I asked where are we going! Sometimes it was down to the Keys.. and off on an underwater adventure. sometimes they decided to cave dive ( I was certified, but <shudder> nope ) I did outside or up top.. Maybe to Tn or Ky, North GA to climb a short cliff face.

It wasn't always just the climb or dive.... It was also the journey... So yeah, now my idea of danger is Wal-mart and just hiking in a state park is adventurous enough.. physically.

Game challenge? No matter how difficult, If it doesn't come with consequences for failure.. it's not much of a challenge... It's a different mindset, that's all. I'm all about the journey, the story.. until it's all about the challenge.. and then it has to have failure consequences....otherwise.. what's the point?

I understand the need for difficulty after one reaches a really high level and you have worked for it.

Your piton pulls loose and you pray in those few seconds that the next holds... and the next, until you jerk to a stop. Your heart is thumping and it isn't until you are hugging rock again that you look down and gulp.. and then, look up and continue to climb.

but we are talking. about. a video game. nothing in a video game is going to have consequences of even as small as losing a grip of the gym wall and getting a small weggie from a loose rope going taut to catch you. nothing in a video game CAN. expecting it to give you anything even close to a thrill of even a gym climb is just.... misguided.

hmm guess it's hard to explain the investment in a character.. the care at which you play.. when you know that their are consequences to 'your' ( meaning MY ) bad play choices... It's called death.. Death of the character.

Everyone plays different... I don't expect 99% of people to 'get' playing Dead is Dead.. that's fine.. I don't 'get' leveling as fast as possible, (nothing wrong with doing that.. ) just to get to higher level content. I don't play DiD until the game feel's "too easy" and not a challenge any other way..but I know I still have content I want to see.

And no.. nothing in a game can beat the sheer heart thumping feeling of even climbing to the top of mt Yonah in GA.. or seeing a pod of dolphins that zip by.. being surrounded by Skip Jack.. knowing that the bigger tuna's and other predators are close. Feeling the wind in your face as your sailboard skims the top of a wave and then is flying for a time... Landing a 50lbs Tarpon on 'light' tackle.

<sigh> very far afield... I've said it before, I find the difficulty fine the way it is.. when it isn't, then I will find a way to make it work for me.. or move on.

I suppose.

personaly the very reason i dont do and will never do "dead is dead" sort of character is becasue video games are the ONLY medium that allows redo's in RL dead is dead is the ONLY way. you make a mistake? you live with it. or die from it. the very thing that attracts me to video games is ability to do over and not be penalized for it. a true, genuine do over.

I also don't level as fast as possible. I enjoy the stories. I am that person who keeps arguing for solo dungeons, true solo dungeons, not "git gud" version - just to be able to fully enjoy the stories and the environment.

and while I'm a very casual climber - I did go on more then one mountain hike and the feeling of standing at the top with a hawk circling overhead while everything bellow you is so small, like looking into a miniature panorama .. or the quiet stillness of a part of a skydive just after you opened your parachute and are floating down slowly enough that high enough it feels like floating in place above the cloud... NOTHING in video games could ever replicate it. and honestly, i personaly never look for that anyways. for me the safety of the video game IS the fun. you can do and try things in video games that you can't or shouldn't try in real life. that's kinda the big part of the point for me.

I know. i KNOW that different people play differently and that's why I'm in full support of existence of games that specifically cater to those preferences. but i'm NOT in support of changing existing game that just so happens to mostly cater to MY preferences - away from that. when ESO didn't work for me? I left. I'm here, arguing against all these "game is too easy" posts because I don't want to leave in case I'm silent and developers end up changing the game after all, thinking that all of their audience agrees.

Noisivid

I'm currently running a newish Templar through Elsweyr with no CP slotted, using only dropped gear, only potions that
drop in zone, and only food that the character can craft itself. No twinking from my other characters and no running
around collecting skyshards from all the zones so I've got extra skill points. Currently about level 20. So far the questing content is fairly engaging, though not difficult. I do need to block, dodge, interrupt and not stand in stupid. This
makes the story lines more engaging than when doing them with my maxed out DK w/fully upgraded farmed gear.
gee, I wonder why...

I think that ZOS should give us the option to save various CP loadouts.
That way we could have one for dungeons/trials, another for PVP, and I could set up one w/zero CP
slotted for questing. That would help with increasing the difficulty/challenge so I could feel engaged
with the game while questing.
Then add on to that just using gear that drops in overland/quests without upgrading it and maybe the quests will be engaging.
Use Dressing Room or some other such add-on to swap gear/skill loadouts on the fly. (something like this should be
in the base game really. console players have to swap out full sets manually... am I just lazy?)

If ZOS would do this and someone still wanted to quest w/810CP and optimized golded-out gear that would be their
choice. If someone else wanted to quest w/no CP and random dropped gear that would also be the players choice.

Alternatively, ZOS could add in a reverse battle-leveling system that reduced a characters overall power to a certain
degree. I don't know how that would be able to account for all the different builds though... Just scaling damage
taken and damage dealt doesn't seem like it would work too well. (yay bullet sponges!!! um no, just say no)

I seriously doubt that ZOS is going to redesign all the zones for "vet" difficulty levels.

TL/DR. Just give us the ability to save various CP loadouts, including a 0CP loadout. I think players could then
self-select their desired challenge level for questing content.

Wifeaggro13

MikaHR wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Mitaka211 wrote: »

I agree , i really enjoy the vet dungeons but the world content is way too easy. The fact you can solo world bosses is unacceptable to me. Hard content motivates people to group together simple as that. All the games that tried to please casual players became shallow and a bore to play.
It is not about whining or whatever it is just a fact.

Take mino for example or the imperfect. Cool bosses sure. But me being able to solo them while drinking coffee and smoking a cigarette , while watching a tv show in the background really speaks for itself doesn't it.

All games that tried to cater to hardcores are dead or had to be completely reworked...including launch ESO.

It is just a fact.

What are you on about games have to tried to cater to a hard core since B2P and F2P models hit the genre. At least 12 years ago. For the record they catered to that population because those are the people that stayed subscribed for 12 or more months consecutive. Casuals spent their money on Ebay buying crap from the hard core lol and subbed every couple of months out of a year.since 2008 not one game has tried to cater to a hard core. What's killed games is poor management post launch content and trying to make a game a casual would subscribe for long term. Post launch retention is a thing of the past now with B2P and cash shops.all you need to do is sell copies and gate your features behind pay walls. Personaly I prefer the old games. They may have been smaller but the friends you made there transitioned for generations of games. I still play with people I met in 1999 in eq 1

tl;dr - hardores dont keep the lights on...a hard lesson that all of these games had to learn.

The best example Wildstar that was specifically aimed at hardores....didnt lat a year.

You didnt read what I wrote . Wildstar has nothing to do with what I wrote. It was a crap game no game has tried to cater to that style since 2006 or so. b2p and f2p models figured out how to convince casuals to spend more money on garbage aesthetics and gated content then they ever made on subs. Add in IP exploiting marketing it's far more profitable to make a easy bake MMO then a good indepth game.. Hard core is what birthed this genre though. Eq 1 early wow eq2 and ultima. They fathered this genre and that community kept the light on and made massive profits . It's why every Tom *** and harry started making garbage games to try and get a piece of the pie

GarnetFire17

I like the idea, OP. I also would like to see a 3rd level difficulty of dungeons. Premade groups should have no limits, but using the dungeon finder should have level/cp requirements.

Anhedonie

Adding a bit of health and making monsters use their abilities like 50-70% more often might help, while not neccessary making overland too hard for the new players.

GarnetFire17

Anhedonie wrote: »

Adding a bit of health and making monsters use their abilities like 50-70% more often might help, while not neccessary making overland too hard for the new players.

Having them hit harder is better than adding health in my opinion. You want them to be a threat but not have to spend to long to kill them.

theyancey

The game can't be based on the wants and needs of existing players. Sure, some of the overland content may be easy to those of us who have been playing the game since launch, but it MUST be approachable to the average casual new player. They are the lifeblood of any game of this type.

Kolache

theyancey wrote: »

The game can't be based on the wants and needs of existing players. Sure, some of the overland content may be easy to those of us who have been playing the game since launch, but it MUST be approachable to the average casual new player. They are the lifeblood of any game of this type.

New players have 5 years worth of overland content to chew through. I think that's probably enough for most new players to figure the game out. Can we move on to catering to the solo players that have been subbed for all these years and buying every DLC? Even if they're an apparently insignificant group, I think we've got the new player experience covered.

Wifeaggro13

Kolache wrote: »

theyancey wrote: »

The game can't be based on the wants and needs of existing players. Sure, some of the overland content may be easy to those of us who have been playing the game since launch, but it MUST be approachable to the average casual new player. They are the lifeblood of any game of this type.

New players have 5 years worth of overland content to chew through. I think that's probably enough for most new players to figure the game out. Can we move on to catering to the solo players that have been subbed for all these years and buying every DLC? Even if they're an apparently insignificant group, I think we've got the new player experience covered.

I dont think Zos is even trying to cater to the new player. It's just quicker and easier to pump this flat scale content . Charging full pop for big overland zones with little in game changing evolution is more profitable then trying to make new systems or expand on the old ones

Jhalin

Linaleah wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.

Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.

I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.

its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint

Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?

and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.

again.

meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.

Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.

You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.

I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).

1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.

1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.

You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?

I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.

and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.

Listen to yourself

You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that

If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free

Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them

MartiniDaniels

Linaleah wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

you know how to avoid giant's damage. 12 dodges. TWELVE. there is nothing that's going to be challenging for you, including something like Soul's because you know how to dodge that damage. and if you cannot dodge, then what is even the point?

How much damage are you inflicting when you dodge?

How does dodging it kill the monster?

And if you don't consider having to dodge it 12 or more times in order to have enough attacks to put it down,

WTF do you consider "A Challenge" ?????

rubs temples.

dodging allows you to avoid damage from monsters. which means YOU are not taking damage. which means as long as you are good with dodge timers, it doesn't matter how much damage the monster deals or how many times you dodge before you kill the monster, you are still not getting hit. someone who doesn't dodge as quickly? amount of damage monster deals is a difference between success and failure for them.

its kinda part of the reason why DLC dungeons are so impossible for so many people. its not that mechanics are super complicated. its that they don't allow any margins for error.

moreover, lets address things requiring more damage. in ESO that usually means that whatever these monsters are doing - they are going to ramp it up. a soft enrage if you will. if monsters are NOT ramping up, allowing someone with lower dps to still kill them? then its not extra challenging either you know for someone who wants challenge, just tedious for the person with lower dps.

for me at least challenge is difficulty in executing a mechanic. how quickly it hits, how little or how much margin for error there is. how quickly you have to act before you no longer have a chance to act and die instead. and here is the thing. the line of where it stops being fun and becomes impossible? is different for everyone. especially when it comes to content you can learn and memorize, you know anything AI based.

becasue are you all trying to tell me that combat is going to be more fun if you have to dodge 20 times instead of 12? you know, cause there is more health on a mob?

basically - I'm not convinced that ZoS can do enough to make something challenging enough long enough for all the different people with all the difference ideas of what is going to be just right for them... without negatively affecting those for whom current level of overworld difficulty is just fine. and yes taking time to creating multitude of "difficulties" means less time spent to create new content of any kind.

you all are just going to learn all the ins and outs and complain its too easy again, the way I've already seen people complain about DLC dungeons and how easy THEY are.

You can't dodge everything, basically you can dodge only once in 5 seconds without excessive stamina drain. And there is always risk to dodge too early or too late in case of incoming heavy attacks. So increasing elite mob HP and damage greatly increases threat, though speed increase will be good too.
Also increased health of quest boss tests your sustain. For example dealing with 500k, 1.5.M, 3M, 6M targets is completely different scenarios in terms of sustain.
So overall in solo content you have certain freedom of build and you balance between durability, damage and sustain, which provides required RPG gameplay.

Linaleah

Jhalin wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.

Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.

I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.

its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint

Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?

and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.

again.

meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.

Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.

You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.

I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).

1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.

1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.

You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?

I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.

and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.

Listen to yourself

You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that

If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free

Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them

to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.

also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?

and you call ME a troll. heh

exeeter702

barney2525 wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Aireal wrote: »

Ingvar798_ESO wrote: »

Wanted to drop my 2c as I feel this issue is really hurting an otherwise amazing game.

I would not call myself a veteran player. I played the game at launch for a few months. Came back for Morrowind for a few weeks, and have now returned for Elsweyr.


Much to my dismay, having leveled my Necro to 50, all of this challenge is gone. I quickly realized that I could pull 10+ mobs at a time and AoE them down, all while keeping my health near max (thanks scythe ability). Group content is easily solo-able, even Skyreach/Craglorn. To be fair, there's a few pieces of content that I had trouble soloing in Craglorn.

To me this makes the Overworld content very bland/boring. I do enjoy the story in ESO, but most of the time the immersion is completely ruined by some NPC telling me how dangerous this guy is, and then I run over and 3 shot them and all their goons. The story fundamentally breaks in these incidents. Personally the content in Overworld felt so boring that I almost quit, just a few days returned.
<snipped for length >

Exeeter702.. those who want a harder content would loose that fight... unless a mod could be made or new version come out with "legendary " on it... ESO is based on the other TES games. . And the overworld pretty much works the same way. Not exactly..because of the nature of single person versus MMO...

The dungeons have always been harder... though truthfully, away from towns and starter areas was too. But you had ( usually) leveled by the time you got there... so only slightly more challenging, unless you min/maxed.. then not challenging at all.

i dont get why you would draw the line at "legendary". An organic difficulty curve that adheres to an overall game wide standard where valuable lessons are taught to new players as they progress through overland content is not the same as wanting a legendary overland mode. This has nothing to do with single player TES entries as they are fundamentally different games and obey entirely different rules, im purely speaking on behalf of games willing to tell it players its ok to fail and provide them with the necessary tools and information to overcome a challenge or otherwise achieve a win condition. There is very little meaningful engagement for those that want some form of push back or opposition in overland content which again goes back to my intial point...

Compartmentalized content that caters to isolated player demographcis is fine if you want to create a space for every type of player. The issue with this design approach is that when a player on the lower spectrum decides to venture outside their comfort zone, they tend to acclimate very poorly. Creating more meaningful overland opposition potentially solves the issue of players becoming better rather than plateauing. It doenst have to be extraordinarily difficult obviously and no one suggests as much. I simply come from the generation/mindset that believes the best kind of online games are the ones that treat all players as equals right out of the gates, provides the necessary tools to succeed and tells them to sink or swim while offering various teirs of content with varying ranges of difficulty.

I'm also of the generation/mindset that feels there is little reason to play game if you arent engaged enough to desire improving and overcoming a challenge. I believe therenare 2 kinds of people (gamers) that after an 8 hour day, there are those that sit down with controller /kb mouse in hand and want to shut their brian off and those that want to turn it up to 11. And that is coming from a early 30s family man with a salary job.

Creating a meaningful overland environment for cp 810 characters is an entirely separate can of worms but for myself and my friends in game, this has effected are ability to enjoy all of the 3 chapters released.

The game you are advocating for would fail. Why? Due to you seemingly believing the majority of gamers play videogames, ESO in particular, to work towards harder content. That just simply isn't the case. I think the devs are well aware of the numbers we don't have access to and have consistently dismissed this because they know for a fact it would be a worthless time/money sink for little profit. Yes I care about their profits as it directly affects my gameplay experience.
.

Completely wrong.

Most popular games are PVP games where people kill each other dozens and hundreds times for days and there is actual challenge at every step.
If you'll say that ESO overland is more like single-player experience, let's then take Witcher 3, in the beginning that archgryphon and ghost "bosses" in White Orchard require tactics and reaction to deal with them even in normal difficulty when you play first time... and this doesn't stopped W3 to be sold at 20M+ and be praised by everyone. In Skyrim until you min-max to certain level on normal difficulty you will be smashed by any giant/dragon priest/draugr lord if you don't use some kind of tactics... Aldmeri Ambassy is quite challenging and requires some brain activity.. even on the road to High Hrotgar you will meet white bear and snow troll which will torn your lvl5 char in parts if you just rush on them. 30M+ sales. From the recent - Divinity Original Sin 2 - this game simply brings your ass to you in each encounter, which doesn't prevented it to become very popular despite very specific non-casual gameplay.
95% of the best and most successful RPGs in the history will kill you within several seconds on normal difficulty if you will run forward spamming light attacks on enemy of comparable level. Of course there are exploits everywhere, but we are talking about new players. So your argument is wrong. Majority of players play game for gameplay and overcoming challenges game provides, and not to go around picking flowers and listening how somebody cursed some village and you need to close 4 portals to abort this..

First off, except for Skyrim, I've never heard of any of these games. I've been watching videos for the past three years about what the best games to play are currently and what will be coming out and I STILL have never heard of any of the games aside from Skyrim.

If they are/were so great, where are they? Why aren't they listed in Any top 25 MMOs to play?

You are throwing statements out as if they were fact, but no documentation whatsoever. Where are you coming up with these numbers? ESPECIALLY the percentage on the second bold line.

And then I see - You are NOT talking about MMOs. You are talking about RPGs. Games you buy and play by yourself.

And the third bold is completely wrong because No One, not you, not me, not anyone else here can definitively state WHY each and every person plays an MMO. There are so many different reason, THERE IS NO MAJORITY.

Archeage is a beautiful game that is horrendously broken and yet it still functions BECAUSE it has the unique feature that it caters to ALL walks. You want to PvP? You can spend either years grinding or thousands of dollars to get near to top of the gear gap (which was about 14k gear score when I finally quit). Or you can farm, do traderuns, build homes, decorate, make millions in gold and NEVER have to swing a weapon. Or you can go do quests and make gold farming critters. Or go out to the Ocean in your boat and search for treasure chests next to wrecks on the sea floor. Or you can just hang out with friends and do silly stuff like sail your boat on land.

People play games for MANY different reasons. There is NO Majority.

Divinity 2 and witcher 3 are 2 of the most well recieved and critically praised rpgs of the last decade you plebian.

Linaleah

exeeter702 wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Aireal wrote: »

Ingvar798_ESO wrote: »

Wanted to drop my 2c as I feel this issue is really hurting an otherwise amazing game.

I would not call myself a veteran player. I played the game at launch for a few months. Came back for Morrowind for a few weeks, and have now returned for Elsweyr.


Much to my dismay, having leveled my Necro to 50, all of this challenge is gone. I quickly realized that I could pull 10+ mobs at a time and AoE them down, all while keeping my health near max (thanks scythe ability). Group content is easily solo-able, even Skyreach/Craglorn. To be fair, there's a few pieces of content that I had trouble soloing in Craglorn.

To me this makes the Overworld content very bland/boring. I do enjoy the story in ESO, but most of the time the immersion is completely ruined by some NPC telling me how dangerous this guy is, and then I run over and 3 shot them and all their goons. The story fundamentally breaks in these incidents. Personally the content in Overworld felt so boring that I almost quit, just a few days returned.
<snipped for length >

Exeeter702.. those who want a harder content would loose that fight... unless a mod could be made or new version come out with "legendary " on it... ESO is based on the other TES games. . And the overworld pretty much works the same way. Not exactly..because of the nature of single person versus MMO...

The dungeons have always been harder... though truthfully, away from towns and starter areas was too. But you had ( usually) leveled by the time you got there... so only slightly more challenging, unless you min/maxed.. then not challenging at all.

i dont get why you would draw the line at "legendary". An organic difficulty curve that adheres to an overall game wide standard where valuable lessons are taught to new players as they progress through overland content is not the same as wanting a legendary overland mode. This has nothing to do with single player TES entries as they are fundamentally different games and obey entirely different rules, im purely speaking on behalf of games willing to tell it players its ok to fail and provide them with the necessary tools and information to overcome a challenge or otherwise achieve a win condition. There is very little meaningful engagement for those that want some form of push back or opposition in overland content which again goes back to my intial point...

Compartmentalized content that caters to isolated player demographcis is fine if you want to create a space for every type of player. The issue with this design approach is that when a player on the lower spectrum decides to venture outside their comfort zone, they tend to acclimate very poorly. Creating more meaningful overland opposition potentially solves the issue of players becoming better rather than plateauing. It doenst have to be extraordinarily difficult obviously and no one suggests as much. I simply come from the generation/mindset that believes the best kind of online games are the ones that treat all players as equals right out of the gates, provides the necessary tools to succeed and tells them to sink or swim while offering various teirs of content with varying ranges of difficulty.

I'm also of the generation/mindset that feels there is little reason to play game if you arent engaged enough to desire improving and overcoming a challenge. I believe therenare 2 kinds of people (gamers) that after an 8 hour day, there are those that sit down with controller /kb mouse in hand and want to shut their brian off and those that want to turn it up to 11. And that is coming from a early 30s family man with a salary job.

Creating a meaningful overland environment for cp 810 characters is an entirely separate can of worms but for myself and my friends in game, this has effected are ability to enjoy all of the 3 chapters released.

The game you are advocating for would fail. Why? Due to you seemingly believing the majority of gamers play videogames, ESO in particular, to work towards harder content. That just simply isn't the case. I think the devs are well aware of the numbers we don't have access to and have consistently dismissed this because they know for a fact it would be a worthless time/money sink for little profit. Yes I care about their profits as it directly affects my gameplay experience.
.

Completely wrong.

Most popular games are PVP games where people kill each other dozens and hundreds times for days and there is actual challenge at every step.
If you'll say that ESO overland is more like single-player experience, let's then take Witcher 3, in the beginning that archgryphon and ghost "bosses" in White Orchard require tactics and reaction to deal with them even in normal difficulty when you play first time... and this doesn't stopped W3 to be sold at 20M+ and be praised by everyone. In Skyrim until you min-max to certain level on normal difficulty you will be smashed by any giant/dragon priest/draugr lord if you don't use some kind of tactics... Aldmeri Ambassy is quite challenging and requires some brain activity.. even on the road to High Hrotgar you will meet white bear and snow troll which will torn your lvl5 char in parts if you just rush on them. 30M+ sales. From the recent - Divinity Original Sin 2 - this game simply brings your ass to you in each encounter, which doesn't prevented it to become very popular despite very specific non-casual gameplay.
95% of the best and most successful RPGs in the history will kill you within several seconds on normal difficulty if you will run forward spamming light attacks on enemy of comparable level. Of course there are exploits everywhere, but we are talking about new players. So your argument is wrong. Majority of players play game for gameplay and overcoming challenges game provides, and not to go around picking flowers and listening how somebody cursed some village and you need to close 4 portals to abort this..

First off, except for Skyrim, I've never heard of any of these games. I've been watching videos for the past three years about what the best games to play are currently and what will be coming out and I STILL have never heard of any of the games aside from Skyrim.

If they are/were so great, where are they? Why aren't they listed in Any top 25 MMOs to play?

You are throwing statements out as if they were fact, but no documentation whatsoever. Where are you coming up with these numbers? ESPECIALLY the percentage on the second bold line.

And then I see - You are NOT talking about MMOs. You are talking about RPGs. Games you buy and play by yourself.

And the third bold is completely wrong because No One, not you, not me, not anyone else here can definitively state WHY each and every person plays an MMO. There are so many different reason, THERE IS NO MAJORITY.

Archeage is a beautiful game that is horrendously broken and yet it still functions BECAUSE it has the unique feature that it caters to ALL walks. You want to PvP? You can spend either years grinding or thousands of dollars to get near to top of the gear gap (which was about 14k gear score when I finally quit). Or you can farm, do traderuns, build homes, decorate, make millions in gold and NEVER have to swing a weapon. Or you can go do quests and make gold farming critters. Or go out to the Ocean in your boat and search for treasure chests next to wrecks on the sea floor. Or you can just hang out with friends and do silly stuff like sail your boat on land.

People play games for MANY different reasons. There is NO Majority.

Divinity 2 and witcher 3 are 2 of the most well recieved and critically praised rpgs of the last decade you plebian.

they are also single player games and Witcher 3 at least comes with narrative difficulty that allows you to successfully finish an entire game with what amounts to light attack spam. can't make any claims for Divinity 2, as I wasn't interested enough in it to bother adding it to my backlog. but I have played all 3 witcher games (books are fantastic btw, highly reccomend), though I couldn't bring myself to finish first one. most single player rpg's on a market that are not made by "from software" - come with very easy difficulty that makes them accessible for anyone who is primarily interested in a story. yes that includes Skyrim. but... and this is important. they also do not need to maintain servers and class balance like MMO's do. you can also open up your single player game to extensive modding that can come up with even more challenging difficulties and it will NOT affect the game for everyone else.

single player rpg's are a VERY different beast from an MMO.

Jhalin

Linaleah wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.

Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.

I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.

its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint

Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?

and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.

again.

meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.

Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.

You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.

I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).

1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.

1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.

You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?

I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.

and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.

Listen to yourself

You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that

If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free

Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them

to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.

also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?

and you call ME a troll. heh

I do not “put” potions and food in the same category as weapons and skills. They’re already there and always have been. It’s a key aspect of character stats.

I don’t “min max” my drops-only newbie toons. The game asks nothing of me in its quests, absolutely zero requirements are needed to succeed. You think anyone with more than an infantilegrasp of the game should be locked out of even slightly engaging questing without throwing out every piece of knowledge the game teaches them.

And please ffs stop talking about WBs which NO ONE is complaining about when we mention Quest Bosses. Read what is being written.

No tools are available to make the game a challenge. “Don’t use gear” isn’t a tool. “Don’t dodge” isn’t a mechanic. “Don’t use drops” isn’t a system of challenge.

You claim people die all the time to quest bosses? Fine, show me quotes from people who find questing any kind of threat. Let see these player who are apparently completely unable to adapt in any way at all when one approach doesn’t work

Linaleah

Jhalin wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.

Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.

I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.

its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint

Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?

and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.

again.

meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.

Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.

You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.

I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).

1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.

1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.

You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?

I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.

and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.

Listen to yourself

You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that

If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free

Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them

to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.

also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?

and you call ME a troll. heh

I do not “put” potions and food in the same category as weapons and skills. They’re already there and always have been. It’s a key aspect of character stats.

I don’t “min max” my drops-only newbie toons. The game asks nothing of me in its quests, absolutely zero requirements are needed to succeed. You think anyone with more than an infantilegrasp of the game should’ve locked out of even slightly engaging questing without throwing out every piece of knowledge the game teaches them.

And please ffs stop talking about WBs which NO ONE is complaining about when we mention Quest Bosses. Read what is being written.

No tools are available to make the game a challenge. “Don’t use gear” isn’t a tool. “Don’t dodge” isn’t a mechanic. “Don’t use drops” isn’t a system of challenge.

You claim people die all the time to quest bosses? Fine, show me quotes from people who find questing any kind of threat. Let see these player who are apparently completely unable to adapt in any way at all when one approach doesn’t work

when was the last time you watched general chat. cause i'm STILL seeing people ask help with QUEST bosses. I'm still seeing people DIE to QUEST bosses. i watched my own SO die to sload quest boss over and over and over. he is not new to rpg's or MMO's. but it still took him a bit of time to get used to this game's combat. to the point of abandoning the game more then once and only coming back cause he sees me enjoying it and he watched how I fought that boss on his character (and on that character, despite having skills on his bars, weapons, potions slotted - it was hard for ME, because he was still figuring out set up and didn't quite get the combination of skills that would make it easier for him just yet). part of the problem is that the game is not very good at explaining itself and part of the problem is - this is the price of build flexibility. and the fact still remains - not everyone finds this game easy. My SO got better. he finally GOT the game and already doing better then me, now. but he also has better reflexes then me, among other things. not everyone who plays this game does.

potions and foods are OPTIONAL buffs that you can use to make the game easier for yourself.

moreover - people ARE complaining about world bosses being too easy. please do read the thread.

in any case. i'm tired of arguing with you. its pointless and I'm not here to convince you. i'm here to convince ZoS that not everyone wants the game to be "harder"

exeeter702

Linaleah wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.

Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.

I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.

its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint

Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?

and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.

again.

meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.

Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.

You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.

I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).

1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.

1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.

You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?

I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.

and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.

Listen to yourself

You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that

If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free

Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them

to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.

also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?

and you call ME a troll. heh

I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.

Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.

Linaleah

exeeter702 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Kolache wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.

Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.

I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.

its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint

Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?

and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.

again.

meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.

Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.

You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.

I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).

1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.

1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.

You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?

I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.

and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.

Listen to yourself

You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that

If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free

Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them

to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.

also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?

and you call ME a troll. heh

I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.

Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.

they should NOT be a requirement for overworld. encouraged =/= must under all circumstances.