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Seriously, this game is too easy and the overworld needs to be buffed heavily.
-
LennoxPoodle✭✭✭Imho, a game with trash mobs you can simply ignore is suboptimal in that aspect. They shouldn't necessarily be challenging, when you pay attention though, at least on higher lvls with the weaker ones.
I'm all for increasing overland difficulty, but the game should communicate its tools better at the same time. As a guideline you could take the lvl guide builds + white consumables and green gear and make the combat interesting for that, Solo bosses requiring potions (again dropped white) for a player who got the base mechanics mainly figured out isn't that bad of an idea. Maybe also decrease power scaling (regarding gear, CP and Skillpoints) up and down from that to keep players more comparable might be the right call. I came to resent a raw strength increase (not accounting player skill) beyond 200%-300%.
Regarding that communication introducing a no-food icon similar to the armor broken and enchantment expired ones might be a first step.0 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.
Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.
they should NOT be a requirement for overworld. encouraged =/= must under all circumstances.
Its basic feature matter o fact your starting inventory it's right there. I dont know , I really feel like people expect the game to play it for them. I mean even solitaire has a challenge to it. No one is asking for lvl one to be skin of your neck encounters. People are asking for some sort of progression or at least a sliding scale so you can adjust. Lvl 1 you should be able to light attack and not use skills. But by level 50 the game should have increased the difficulty moderately along the way.
sigh. potions and food are required for dungeons, they are optional for overworld. as it should be.
to summarize, becasue you all keep side tracking and changing your angles.
the core of the argument. overworld is NOT too easy, its currently exactly where it should be.
Quest bosses
Not overland trash, BOSSES
Stop pretending like anyone is asking for every trash mob to be vet dungeon level difficulty
Except that is EXACTLY what the OP is asking for.Smasherx74 wrote: »So with the new expansion, I decide to try something new. You know I'll just grind necro on a more min-maxed toon like redguard later, I just want to enjoy the story and experience casually like I would any Elder Scrolls game. (yes I'm weird like that). Sadly, this game is just too easy and I'm honestly tired of hearing people say the open world PVE isn't too easy. I have used 0 of my champion points, I also used no weapons or armor. Guess what? I can run through everything just like I would with CP and gear on. There's virtually no chance of me dying against trash mobs, even the "bosses" of quests are not a challenge. When we talk about the game being too easy, this is the number one issue. Since T1 scaled everything in this game, everything has just became far too easy. To the point I can't even take off all my CP, all my clothes, and go around bare knuckle boxing people, and I still feel like some overpowered god which ruins my immersion.
I know ZOS is trying to make their game as easy as possible for people ot zoom right through as if they're speedrunning. But you know some of us, actually want a little bit of a challenge, we want to die to trash mobs if we aggro too many, ESPECIALLY in the overworld. Some of us want the bosses of quests or delves to be actually challenging, maybe similar to soloing a solo-able world boss. Aside from everything else, I'm not saying we need harder vet dungeons (we do, they're incredibly easy besides a few DLC ones), but I am saying we need a harder overworld.
OP says if you’re pulling dozens of mobs (hey exp grind spots) then things should have a chance to kill you, they’re right. They say quest bosses should feel powerful, they’re right. They even say “maybe” the bosses as WBs, basicallly Normal dungeon level of damage and health, which would be slightly overkill, but it’s not as though there isn’t a nice medium between Paper Cutout and Requires a 4man to Kill
Not even gonna start on how you complained about dying to a group-zone WB while collecting a survey I know for a fact doesnt require you get into aggro range. I’ve got it a dozen times over and never once aggro’d the thing mobs there.5 -
I am really glad I brought up this topic again a couple of weeks ago...this has developed into a really nice and ongoing debate.
Somebody should maybe update my initial poll, to bring it in line with all the great suggestions made:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/473199/should-the-pve-old-open-world-area-difficulty-be-increased/p1
From what I read, besides the people that wish for a hardcore game à la DS3 and the ones they claim to quit the game if overland gets any more difficult. The majority of people at least acknowledges the fact that the overall overland difficulty is very low. Alot of people defend the difficulty saying that new players might turn away, others claim the opposite.
The greatest suggestions include the ones with an optional veteran mode imo. Or simple a non-cp overland version (maybe with added rewards)
That doesn't mean that everybody want things to change, some people will always argue that everything is perfect. But seeing the plentiful responses all over the topics and multiple new topics to the issue popping up on the fly, it really is something that the community is concerned about. Motivating long-term players to do content they couldn't bother doing (incl myself) because the combat felt incredibly unchallenging when max cp while the mechanics of the NPCs vary so little if all, should be a goal for ZOS, like I stated earlier, alot of potential for replaying the beautiful and lorewise perfectly setup overland, is wasted by making it feel grindy and repetitive. Like OPs said an additional challenge while roaming the vast wilds of Tamriel, including the old world would be much welcomed.
The fact that this post has been pinned to the forum top for some time says that the devs might have noticed, which I couldn't be more glad about.
I am glad so many people agree in this matter!
Edited by Voice_of_Chronicles on June 1, 2019 1:52PM2 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.
Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.
they should NOT be a requirement for overworld. encouraged =/= must under all circumstances.
Its basic feature matter o fact your starting inventory it's right there. I dont know , I really feel like people expect the game to play it for them. I mean even solitaire has a challenge to it. No one is asking for lvl one to be skin of your neck encounters. People are asking for some sort of progression or at least a sliding scale so you can adjust. Lvl 1 you should be able to light attack and not use skills. But by level 50 the game should have increased the difficulty moderately along the way.
sigh. potions and food are required for dungeons, they are optional for overworld. as it should be.
to summarize, becasue you all keep side tracking and changing your angles.
the core of the argument. overworld is NOT too easy, its currently exactly where it should be.
Its really not . It's the same difficulty at lvl 1 as it is at lvl cp 320 fully geared. That means your character actually gets weaker as you lvl not stronger.
its... not. at early levels the game buffs you in order to entice you, then the game gets harder, until you get better at it, etc. at which point it becomes easier and easier. which is kinda the point. you as a player have gotten more powerful, because you understand the game better. its as it should be.
moreover.... if your character wasn't getting more powerful, then how in a world can the argument of "the overworld is too easy" even exist?? its contradictory to claim that the world is too easy, while also claiming that your character is not getting any more powerful.
Look these overland threads are dime a dozen. Its painfully obvious there are problems with Zos scaling with the long term player. It baffles me when the community brings a suggestion , the fan will automatically defend . I get it you like the overland faceroll easy it's fine. But many of the playerbase want some sort of additional challenge.
please don't even try to turn it into a "the fan automaticaly defending, becasue they are fans" thing.
yes I do like the "faceroll" because its not faceroll for me. its just relaxing enough to be engaging without being frustrating.
reminder. difficulty is in the eye of the beholder. one players faceroll is another player's just right and yet another player's just short of being too difficult to be enjoyed.
and once again, I'm not against OPTIONAL extra difficulty, as long as it doesn't negatively affect current state of overland or takes away from creation of content for current level of "challenge" i will fight TOOTH AND NAIL against anything with even a small whiff of "we need to change current overland to be harder"
dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***10 -
Aireal✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.
Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.
they should NOT be a requirement for overworld. encouraged =/= must under all circumstances.
Its basic feature matter o fact your starting inventory it's right there. I dont know , I really feel like people expect the game to play it for them. I mean even solitaire has a challenge to it. No one is asking for lvl one to be skin of your neck encounters. People are asking for some sort of progression or at least a sliding scale so you can adjust. Lvl 1 you should be able to light attack and not use skills. But by level 50 the game should have increased the difficulty moderately along the way.
sigh. potions and food are required for dungeons, they are optional for overworld. as it should be.
to summarize, becasue you all keep side tracking and changing your angles.
the core of the argument. overworld is NOT too easy, its currently exactly where it should be.
Its really not . It's the same difficulty at lvl 1 as it is at lvl cp 320 fully geared. That means your character actually gets weaker as you lvl not stronger.
its... not. at early levels the game buffs you in order to entice you, then the game gets harder, until you get better at it, etc. at which point it becomes easier and easier. which is kinda the point. you as a player have gotten more powerful, because you understand the game better. its as it should be.
moreover.... if your character wasn't getting more powerful, then how in a world can the argument of "the overworld is too easy" even exist?? its contradictory to claim that the world is too easy, while also claiming that your character is not getting any more powerful.
Look these overland threads are dime a dozen. Its painfully obvious there are problems with Zos scaling with the long term player. It baffles me when the community brings a suggestion , the fan will automatically defend . I get it you like the overland faceroll easy it's fine. But many of the playerbase want some sort of additional challenge.
please don't even try to turn it into a "the fan automaticaly defending, becasue they are fans" thing.
yes I do like the "faceroll" because its not faceroll for me. its just relaxing enough to be engaging without being frustrating.
reminder. difficulty is in the eye of the beholder. one players faceroll is another player's just right and yet another player's just short of being too difficult to be enjoyed.
and once again, I'm not against OPTIONAL extra difficulty, as long as it doesn't negatively affect current state of overland or takes away from creation of content for current level of "challenge" i will fight TOOTH AND NAIL against anything with even a small whiff of "we need to change current overland to be harder"
Totally agree!
I love a challenge, dont get me wrong, but not every creature or NPC in the overworld. Options are good..I'd love options!Life is about the journey...cause it all ends the same2 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.
Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.
they should NOT be a requirement for overworld. encouraged =/= must under all circumstances.
Its basic feature matter o fact your starting inventory it's right there. I dont know , I really feel like people expect the game to play it for them. I mean even solitaire has a challenge to it. No one is asking for lvl one to be skin of your neck encounters. People are asking for some sort of progression or at least a sliding scale so you can adjust. Lvl 1 you should be able to light attack and not use skills. But by level 50 the game should have increased the difficulty moderately along the way.
sigh. potions and food are required for dungeons, they are optional for overworld. as it should be.
to summarize, becasue you all keep side tracking and changing your angles.
the core of the argument. overworld is NOT too easy, its currently exactly where it should be.
Its really not . It's the same difficulty at lvl 1 as it is at lvl cp 320 fully geared. That means your character actually gets weaker as you lvl not stronger.
its... not. at early levels the game buffs you in order to entice you, then the game gets harder, until you get better at it, etc. at which point it becomes easier and easier. which is kinda the point. you as a player have gotten more powerful, because you understand the game better. its as it should be.
moreover.... if your character wasn't getting more powerful, then how in a world can the argument of "the overworld is too easy" even exist?? its contradictory to claim that the world is too easy, while also claiming that your character is not getting any more powerful.
Look these overland threads are dime a dozen. Its painfully obvious there are problems with Zos scaling with the long term player. It baffles me when the community brings a suggestion , the fan will automatically defend . I get it you like the overland faceroll easy it's fine. But many of the playerbase want some sort of additional challenge.
please don't even try to turn it into a "the fan automaticaly defending, becasue they are fans" thing.
yes I do like the "faceroll" because its not faceroll for me. its just relaxing enough to be engaging without being frustrating.
reminder. difficulty is in the eye of the beholder. one players faceroll is another player's just right and yet another player's just short of being too difficult to be enjoyed.
and once again, I'm not against OPTIONAL extra difficulty, as long as it doesn't negatively affect current state of overland or takes away from creation of content for current level of "challenge" i will fight TOOTH AND NAIL against anything with even a small whiff of "we need to change current overland to be harder"
only half the issue really . i dont care if they keep overland the same and give option for a VR zone its really what the Op is asking for. I dont for the life of me know why overland diffculty is such a hot issue when the real problems of the game that create a lot of this are so blaringly obvious. they cannot keep the CP system in this stagnant cess pool it is. nor can they continue to make progression about gaining new sets and rotating meta's the heart and soul of the game is dead they need to revive the core game design . each expansion sells less and less as players are getting bored with more lvl content with no lvls. necromancer was an obvious carrot on a stick to get this one to sell well. new class skill lines and additional layers to cp are desperately needed0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.
Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.
they should NOT be a requirement for overworld. encouraged =/= must under all circumstances.
Its basic feature matter o fact your starting inventory it's right there. I dont know , I really feel like people expect the game to play it for them. I mean even solitaire has a challenge to it. No one is asking for lvl one to be skin of your neck encounters. People are asking for some sort of progression or at least a sliding scale so you can adjust. Lvl 1 you should be able to light attack and not use skills. But by level 50 the game should have increased the difficulty moderately along the way.
sigh. potions and food are required for dungeons, they are optional for overworld. as it should be.
to summarize, becasue you all keep side tracking and changing your angles.
the core of the argument. overworld is NOT too easy, its currently exactly where it should be.
Its really not . It's the same difficulty at lvl 1 as it is at lvl cp 320 fully geared. That means your character actually gets weaker as you lvl not stronger.
its... not. at early levels the game buffs you in order to entice you, then the game gets harder, until you get better at it, etc. at which point it becomes easier and easier. which is kinda the point. you as a player have gotten more powerful, because you understand the game better. its as it should be.
moreover.... if your character wasn't getting more powerful, then how in a world can the argument of "the overworld is too easy" even exist?? its contradictory to claim that the world is too easy, while also claiming that your character is not getting any more powerful.
Look these overland threads are dime a dozen. Its painfully obvious there are problems with Zos scaling with the long term player. It baffles me when the community brings a suggestion , the fan will automatically defend . I get it you like the overland faceroll easy it's fine. But many of the playerbase want some sort of additional challenge.
please don't even try to turn it into a "the fan automaticaly defending, becasue they are fans" thing.
yes I do like the "faceroll" because its not faceroll for me. its just relaxing enough to be engaging without being frustrating.
reminder. difficulty is in the eye of the beholder. one players faceroll is another player's just right and yet another player's just short of being too difficult to be enjoyed.
and once again, I'm not against OPTIONAL extra difficulty, as long as it doesn't negatively affect current state of overland or takes away from creation of content for current level of "challenge" i will fight TOOTH AND NAIL against anything with even a small whiff of "we need to change current overland to be harder"
only half the issue really . i dont care if they keep overland the same and give option for a VR zone its really what the Op is asking for. I dont for the life of me know why overland diffculty is such a hot issue when the real problems of the game that create a lot of this are so blaringly obvious. they cannot keep the CP system in this stagnant cess pool it is. nor can they continue to make progression about gaining new sets and rotating meta's the heart and soul of the game is dead they need to revive the core game design . each expansion sells less and less as players are getting bored with more lvl content with no lvls. necromancer was an obvious carrot on a stick to get this one to sell well. new class skill lines and additional layers to cp are desperately needed
they... are already working on balancing cp system. its litteraly why we didn't get another 30 cp points, they even said as much. that they are working on balancing and scaling cp system and no longer doing increases while they figure out the rework. if CP scaling is the issue? you are covered. they are aware. they are working on it. and my impression was that Op was NOT asking for separate instance for existing zones, that is more challenging, my impression was that OP and few others (not everyone but a good number of players) is asking for overall increase of overland difficulty.
that said, again, IMO, cp is only small part of the problem when it comes to gigantic gaps between player performance. weaving is far bigger culprit. and they are not fixing weaving, probably ever, so.. even with cp rework, there will STILL be gigantic disparity between players. possibly slightly less gigantic, but still considerable. and becasue of that disparity - current overworld would STILL be too easy for some. read above my example of trying to do what Martini did on a new character and having a completely different experience.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.
Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.
they should NOT be a requirement for overworld. encouraged =/= must under all circumstances.
Its basic feature matter o fact your starting inventory it's right there. I dont know , I really feel like people expect the game to play it for them. I mean even solitaire has a challenge to it. No one is asking for lvl one to be skin of your neck encounters. People are asking for some sort of progression or at least a sliding scale so you can adjust. Lvl 1 you should be able to light attack and not use skills. But by level 50 the game should have increased the difficulty moderately along the way.
sigh. potions and food are required for dungeons, they are optional for overworld. as it should be.
to summarize, becasue you all keep side tracking and changing your angles.
the core of the argument. overworld is NOT too easy, its currently exactly where it should be.
Its really not . It's the same difficulty at lvl 1 as it is at lvl cp 320 fully geared. That means your character actually gets weaker as you lvl not stronger.
its... not. at early levels the game buffs you in order to entice you, then the game gets harder, until you get better at it, etc. at which point it becomes easier and easier. which is kinda the point. you as a player have gotten more powerful, because you understand the game better. its as it should be.
moreover.... if your character wasn't getting more powerful, then how in a world can the argument of "the overworld is too easy" even exist?? its contradictory to claim that the world is too easy, while also claiming that your character is not getting any more powerful.
Look these overland threads are dime a dozen. Its painfully obvious there are problems with Zos scaling with the long term player. It baffles me when the community brings a suggestion , the fan will automatically defend . I get it you like the overland faceroll easy it's fine. But many of the playerbase want some sort of additional challenge.
please don't even try to turn it into a "the fan automaticaly defending, becasue they are fans" thing.
yes I do like the "faceroll" because its not faceroll for me. its just relaxing enough to be engaging without being frustrating.
reminder. difficulty is in the eye of the beholder. one players faceroll is another player's just right and yet another player's just short of being too difficult to be enjoyed.
and once again, I'm not against OPTIONAL extra difficulty, as long as it doesn't negatively affect current state of overland or takes away from creation of content for current level of "challenge" i will fight TOOTH AND NAIL against anything with even a small whiff of "we need to change current overland to be harder"
only half the issue really . i dont care if they keep overland the same and give option for a VR zone its really what the Op is asking for. I dont for the life of me know why overland diffculty is such a hot issue when the real problems of the game that create a lot of this are so blaringly obvious. they cannot keep the CP system in this stagnant cess pool it is. nor can they continue to make progression about gaining new sets and rotating meta's the heart and soul of the game is dead they need to revive the core game design . each expansion sells less and less as players are getting bored with more lvl content with no lvls. necromancer was an obvious carrot on a stick to get this one to sell well. new class skill lines and additional layers to cp are desperately needed
they... are already working on balancing cp system. its litteraly why we didn't get another 30 cp points, they even said as much. that they are working on balancing and scaling cp system and no longer doing increases while they figure out the rework. if CP scaling is the issue? you are covered. they are aware. they are working on it. and my impression was that Op was NOT asking for separate instance for existing zones, that is more challenging, my impression was that OP and few others (not everyone but a good number of players) is asking for overall increase of overland difficulty.
that said, again, IMO, cp is only small part of the problem when it comes to gigantic gaps between player performance. weaving is far bigger culprit. and they are not fixing weaving, probably ever, so.. even with cp rework, there will STILL be gigantic disparity between players. possibly slightly less gigantic, but still considerable. and becasue of that disparity - current overworld would STILL be too easy for some. read above my example of trying to do what Martini did on a new character and having a completely different experience.
its only half the Issue the current way CP is . by five years post launch all MMO's have several layers to their Alternate advancment. diffrent trees that unlock when the base is filled. those addtional trees will increase and define your class cetain abilites and your over all power and direction of your character. The CP system is a half finished Idea. Zos has a massive history of implementing half finished systems that require no choice or impact on your character.
Five years post launch the game should have more depth and choice in the finished chracter. Right now the choice is the DPs meta for PVE healing , tanking and utility are pretty much forgotten roles. and most of that boils down to core game design. and your right Weaving and ani canceling specifically ani canceling was aa bug. the devs left in because tyhey though it was a cute way to add a layer to their combat system. what they failed to do was realise they coded a bug into their DPS meta centric game. the game has some big glaring issues in combat and i dont think they will fix them and its a large part of why they will probably only continue to nerf content rather then fix cause. now its a terminal problem they will continue to treat symptoms1 -
navystylz_ESO✭✭✭✭Sylvermynx wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Why don't you remove all your CP's, and take your gear off if you want difficulty for the sake of difficulty?
People already have, and it’s still pointlessly easybarney2525 wrote: »navystylz_ESO wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »navystylz_ESO wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »
You are right. No one mentioned the rewards.
But no one ever mentions their Real ultimate goals either.
Must be really nice for people like you to pull absolutely BS out their arse to attack that argument, rather than the on-going actual discussion. You have NEVER gotten good rewards from quest content. NEVER. So this fixation and pretending peopel thinking overland content is too easy because they want better rewards is just inane. Stop. Just stop.
Nope
If you had paid any attention, you would have seen I have been addressing the issue.
The idea that the Main Focus of this or any other game of this type is to have the "wandering monsters" be the most dangerous and horribly hard for characters to kill is just plain ridiculous. The character needs to get from point A to point B to pursue the actual Mission (whatever it may be). Overland is simply Filler. It's Nuisance. It is DESIGNED to be minimal effort - especially for higher powered characters. To think otherwise makes no sense. It is NOT a Major part of the game.
So, if I see someone so adamant about Making it some Major part of the game, I start wondering Why. It's Not because "it's too easy". That would be something you complain about if you get to a world boss and it falls over in 3 hits.
That's Not what Overland is. Overland is Not Supposed to be hard, and it is functioning Exactly as it is supposed to. You tell me - WHY DOES ANYONE CARE THAT IS IS EASY TO GET FROM POINT A TO POINT B?
IMHOI can run through everything just like I would with CP and gear on. There's virtually no chance of me dying against trash mobs, even the "bosses" of quests are not a challenge. When we talk about the game being too easy, this is the number one issue.But you know some of us, actually want a little bit of a challenge, we want to die to trash mobs if we aggro too many, ESPECIALLY in the overworld. Some of us want the bosses of quests or delves to be actually challenging
From the OP. And many of us clarified our positions with not including PBs, Dolmen, WBs. Explaining that the penultimate boss of a quest chain should feel like a boss. Though I have mentioned delves several times not included in the 'overland', I thought he meant the delve bosses that quests had you do, rather than the rando you kill because it's sits in there.It is NOT a Major part of the game.
It's a majority of the game. Most of the content is questing stuff that is overland and where that brings you. The content added each chapter and DLC, which continuously treats the whole world like it's an afterthought. That would have us suspend disbelief but tell us majordomo X is so powerful, and he dies in 2 hits.
Most of the time I quest I feel resentment that quest bits aren't instanced, that not only do I have to deal with extremely easy bosses, but there's a good chance some random person runs in and starts nuking them too. Now boss that I could kill in a few hits myself, instantly dies completely destroying any immersion in the story.Maybe I'm older than you are, But Nobody complains this hard about something this insignificant without having Something else that they want to accomplish.
Could be. Maybe not. Or could be that people just are incapable of arguing a position as stated. How hard is it to understand that this game with every chapter and DLC release, brings for another story arc. One that can be smashed through solo, but generally have a bunch of other players smashing through with you, extremely easily.
I came to the forums because after doing Elsweyr completion I just felt cheated. Most of the story was good but I left it feeling like the experience was cheapened by how easy it was. This left me feeling bored and wondering if that aspect of the game was even worth paying more money for.
At least in GW2 the living season come free as long as you are logged in during a particular bit. ESO makes you pay for it and the only reason I feel like this chapter was worth it is because the Necromancer. But I began to question redoing all the content of my original main on the new necromancer was actually going to keep me occupied without feeling like it was so easy that the story completion would leave me feeling more bored than entertained.
This is why I came to the forums. And lo and behold, right there on the first page was this thread with other people expressing the exact same concerns I was feeling.
I don't need more rewards. I don't need anything else except not feeling bored to tears doing the story content which makes up a majority of this game, and is only bearable when the storytelling is superb, which isn't always the case.
Disagree.
It's Not a Majority of the game because IF you want you can simply avoid it - Completely.
You do not have to fight Anything if you don't Choose to.
It Can't be considered a ' Majority ' of the game if it can be simply ignored.
I could not even estimate the many many many characters I have seen running across my screen, being pursued by several mobs. It's not that the character could not stop and kill them. The player just has better things to do - like reaching their actual objective and participating in whatever that issue is.
Overland is Flavor.
Now you’re just outright lying
Questing is not avoidable in any way. You need it for Psijic. You need it for crafting area access. You need it to have access to many dailies. You need it for skill points. You need it for Soul Magic. You need it to experience a damn story
You’re not some old wisened Yoda, you’re just being a nuisance who clearly has no interest in actual debate, who believes all players are infantile creatures that would immediately throw out the whole game if a quest boss actually had a chance to kill them.
Then start removing points from all your passives, and use only one bar, and don't LA weave. Just keep going down the list until you've found the right level of "difficulty" for yourself, then play the rest of the game that way.
That's like suggesting if someone is too smart for a class they should take a crowbar to their head until they are brain damaged enough to where that class challenges them - instead of seeking out a more challenging class they could actually have fun learning in.
It's preposterous.
In the context of a game with pre defined parameters, that's what you need to do if that is the thrill you seek.
I don't find purposely gimping myself thrilling. I find it stupid. In any context.
Then you aren't interested in challenge.
Move along.
Challenge is key part of gameplay, but not the only part. Another essential part of any RPG is your build. You may go for full glass-cannon build in VMA for example with reward of higher scores but this will require times more skill then completing VMA as petsorc or WW. But in overland even if you are full glass cannon you still cannot die.. so if you remove your armor etc you will simply kill mobs longer, but they still can't kill you if you do basic actions like not standing in aoe and blocking/dodging heavy attacks. So now you will propose not to dodge aoes and heavy attacks?
what's left of gameplay then? you don't have build, you can't use CP perks which unlock mechanics, you can't use active defense, you can't use heals.. so you just stay in front of mobs in aoe light attacking them and then you finally die and feel accomplishment - "I finally found challenge"?
I know.
The whole point of an RPG is to make your character more powerful by collecting gear and experience. This idea that you should remove all of that to try and make the game more fun is like saying you should get rid of the football to have fun on a football field. It defeats the whole purpose of the game itself - at which point there is really no point in playing it at all.
Um. Have to disagree. The whole point of an RPG is that I have fun playing it. And RP'ing it. Right now, with new faster 'net, I'm going to be able to do stuff I haven't been able to do before - like bar swapping.... And I'm going to fully enjoy that. But the bottom line for me is - I am having fun in this game.
When it stops being fun, I'll stop playing it. Making overland harder? Eh, nope thanks. I play games (especially TES) for the stories.
Now.... I'm on board for a toggle that gives people like you a DiD option. Go for it, ZOS. And when you die repeatedly.... well... remember you asked for it.
Hit dog barks.
I’d recommend actually reading the OP before posting comments unrelated to what’s being asked for. Also, if a tiny modicum of challenge would make a game unfun, then what you want is a graphic novel, not a game. There is no immersing yourself as hero in a world that poses no threat. No boss can kill you unless you quite literally stand in place and don’t attack with any weapon (which is given in the tutorials), no abilities (which are recommended by the level up advisor), no food (which you loot), no potions (which the game throws at you), no enchants (which are also thrown at you), you don’t block (which is taught in the tutorial), don’t bash (tutorial), and don’t dodge roll
We want actual quest bosses, we want something that gives a sense of accomplishment when we defeat it instead of feeling like we just stepped on a small bug because someone claimed that bug was a huge monsterous fiend that was nigh unstoppable to all challengers before we arrived
I can count on one hand the quest bosses that remotely felt like a boss, even with no CP, with no food, while standing on reds, not even following basic mechanics of the game.
The game sets up a big fight and a strong villain, and it fails to deliver in every way.
It is completely and utterly unreasonable, as well as plain stupid, to imply that the right way to get a challenge in the vast majority of this game’s content is to ignore everything the game has ever provided, and use none of the basic knowledge the TUTORIAL teaches you, then light attack everything to death.
That’s what you’re suggesting, to be crap at the game intentionally, and even then, the enemies still aren’t a threat. It’s ridiculous
Yeah, it would make game unfun for vast majority, game already died once when it was like YOU want it to be. Dont see it dieing now, in fact most agree its in its best shape since launch.
People need stop with this vast majority argument. Back then the crying about difficulty was just about as much as those saying it's too easy now. The game did not die because it was too hard. I didn't know anyone who thought it was too hard. I seen the occasional post, or in game message saying how to pass Doshia she's hard.
Most of the gripe. The thing that killed the game was the game breaking bugs that prevented people from actually progressing at all. And being sick of the grind. Not difficulty. But the incessant grind of never being able to reach your char's max potential. And if you did, it would be moved again next patch.2 -
![[Deleted User]](https://us.v-cdn.net/5020507/uploads/06301530861bfae62d56b72eef4ac33d.png)
[Deleted User]Soul ShrivenHello everyone,
Recently we've noticed some back and forth on this discussion was getting more heated than constructive. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful with the Forum Rules in mind to prevent thread derailment or action on one's own account.
Thank you for understanding.1 -
navystylz_ESO✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »^ i specially dodged several times to toggle that comment of yours. If you deny dodging you just prove how pointless your arguments are since dodging is basic mechanic of any action game.
But ok, no dodge, and i even increased my dps on 20% and received way less hits, since I became more experienced in fighting naked
Damage done
Damage received
so instead of dodging around giant, you just ran around him. the point. still. stands. you know how to move, you know how to play. what is it that you want exactly? one shots from the giant? so that people who don't have your reflexes have no chance at all? where is the fun in THAT? you know for people who are not you?
the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
so what can ZoS do... add one shots? increase mob health? speed up their attacks so that dodging is harder and requires more precise timing? eventually, people like you get used to it and it stops being challenging again, and meanwhile everyone else is left in a dust.
Those all screenshots are to prove that issue is not in CP or golden weapons, purple food, good item sets whatever (though all of that is rather easily achievable), like many people try to push. On every page there is somebody new who tells - remove your CP and quests will be challenging. No, they won't be.
So veteran players need separate instances where mobs will be faster and more dangerous, and quest bosses will require tactics to defeat them. There is no need to invent something new, there is already fast and dangerous mobs in DLC dungeons and quest/delve bosses might be similar to stalking dremora's of Imperial City Sewers. And this should be separate instance so "nobody will be left in dust".
You may ask why devs should bother? But they bother with dungeons like MHK and Frostvault where even in normal version only chance for newbie players to complete it is to be carried by occasional cp810 veteran. And I even agree for this mode to cost additional money, "like veteran overland upgrade" whatever. So what ZOS should do? gather feedback if there will be enough buyers for this new mode and implement it if they see it will make customers happy and their revenue higher.
Oh riiiiiiiiiiiight, now devs should make COMPLETELY new game with COMPLETELY different combat mechanics just to accomodate few whiners on forums.
It aint happening....EVER, VET zones were completely DEAD when they existed, and those were just scaled normal versions.
DLC dungeons are second biggets FAIL on ESOs part after Craglorn (but if they continue like that those will overtake Craglorn REALLY fast)
Go play Wildstar, that was game made specifically for you.
They were no more dead than zones are now. Don't know who you are trying to kid. The same zones that only alik'ir has a huge group regularly farming dolmen. Which, btw, is a lot how people did social grouping to complete all vet zone dolmen and WBs. But now instead of population split between EP, AD, DC and Cyrodiil they're can all play together. Makes it seem like there is more people.
Want to know what areas aren't dead? The new one that didn't exist then that give daily quests to WBs with content that people grind for motifs that didn't exist then. Or the groups looking for people for trials that didn't exist then. Or people doing writs that didn't exist then. Or using the guild traders in popular places, of which guild traders didn't exist then.
People do DLC dungeons constantly. My guilds always have people forming groups internally. They might be fail because people are too cheap to have ESO plus or those who never bothered to learn mechanics because the game doesn't make you need to.1 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭navystylz_ESO wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Why don't you remove all your CP's, and take your gear off if you want difficulty for the sake of difficulty?
People already have, and it’s still pointlessly easybarney2525 wrote: »navystylz_ESO wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »navystylz_ESO wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »
You are right. No one mentioned the rewards.
But no one ever mentions their Real ultimate goals either.
Must be really nice for people like you to pull absolutely BS out their arse to attack that argument, rather than the on-going actual discussion. You have NEVER gotten good rewards from quest content. NEVER. So this fixation and pretending peopel thinking overland content is too easy because they want better rewards is just inane. Stop. Just stop.
Nope
If you had paid any attention, you would have seen I have been addressing the issue.
The idea that the Main Focus of this or any other game of this type is to have the "wandering monsters" be the most dangerous and horribly hard for characters to kill is just plain ridiculous. The character needs to get from point A to point B to pursue the actual Mission (whatever it may be). Overland is simply Filler. It's Nuisance. It is DESIGNED to be minimal effort - especially for higher powered characters. To think otherwise makes no sense. It is NOT a Major part of the game.
So, if I see someone so adamant about Making it some Major part of the game, I start wondering Why. It's Not because "it's too easy". That would be something you complain about if you get to a world boss and it falls over in 3 hits.
That's Not what Overland is. Overland is Not Supposed to be hard, and it is functioning Exactly as it is supposed to. You tell me - WHY DOES ANYONE CARE THAT IS IS EASY TO GET FROM POINT A TO POINT B?
IMHOI can run through everything just like I would with CP and gear on. There's virtually no chance of me dying against trash mobs, even the "bosses" of quests are not a challenge. When we talk about the game being too easy, this is the number one issue.But you know some of us, actually want a little bit of a challenge, we want to die to trash mobs if we aggro too many, ESPECIALLY in the overworld. Some of us want the bosses of quests or delves to be actually challenging
From the OP. And many of us clarified our positions with not including PBs, Dolmen, WBs. Explaining that the penultimate boss of a quest chain should feel like a boss. Though I have mentioned delves several times not included in the 'overland', I thought he meant the delve bosses that quests had you do, rather than the rando you kill because it's sits in there.It is NOT a Major part of the game.
It's a majority of the game. Most of the content is questing stuff that is overland and where that brings you. The content added each chapter and DLC, which continuously treats the whole world like it's an afterthought. That would have us suspend disbelief but tell us majordomo X is so powerful, and he dies in 2 hits.
Most of the time I quest I feel resentment that quest bits aren't instanced, that not only do I have to deal with extremely easy bosses, but there's a good chance some random person runs in and starts nuking them too. Now boss that I could kill in a few hits myself, instantly dies completely destroying any immersion in the story.Maybe I'm older than you are, But Nobody complains this hard about something this insignificant without having Something else that they want to accomplish.
Could be. Maybe not. Or could be that people just are incapable of arguing a position as stated. How hard is it to understand that this game with every chapter and DLC release, brings for another story arc. One that can be smashed through solo, but generally have a bunch of other players smashing through with you, extremely easily.
I came to the forums because after doing Elsweyr completion I just felt cheated. Most of the story was good but I left it feeling like the experience was cheapened by how easy it was. This left me feeling bored and wondering if that aspect of the game was even worth paying more money for.
At least in GW2 the living season come free as long as you are logged in during a particular bit. ESO makes you pay for it and the only reason I feel like this chapter was worth it is because the Necromancer. But I began to question redoing all the content of my original main on the new necromancer was actually going to keep me occupied without feeling like it was so easy that the story completion would leave me feeling more bored than entertained.
This is why I came to the forums. And lo and behold, right there on the first page was this thread with other people expressing the exact same concerns I was feeling.
I don't need more rewards. I don't need anything else except not feeling bored to tears doing the story content which makes up a majority of this game, and is only bearable when the storytelling is superb, which isn't always the case.
Disagree.
It's Not a Majority of the game because IF you want you can simply avoid it - Completely.
You do not have to fight Anything if you don't Choose to.
It Can't be considered a ' Majority ' of the game if it can be simply ignored.
I could not even estimate the many many many characters I have seen running across my screen, being pursued by several mobs. It's not that the character could not stop and kill them. The player just has better things to do - like reaching their actual objective and participating in whatever that issue is.
Overland is Flavor.
Now you’re just outright lying
Questing is not avoidable in any way. You need it for Psijic. You need it for crafting area access. You need it to have access to many dailies. You need it for skill points. You need it for Soul Magic. You need it to experience a damn story
You’re not some old wisened Yoda, you’re just being a nuisance who clearly has no interest in actual debate, who believes all players are infantile creatures that would immediately throw out the whole game if a quest boss actually had a chance to kill them.
Then start removing points from all your passives, and use only one bar, and don't LA weave. Just keep going down the list until you've found the right level of "difficulty" for yourself, then play the rest of the game that way.
That's like suggesting if someone is too smart for a class they should take a crowbar to their head until they are brain damaged enough to where that class challenges them - instead of seeking out a more challenging class they could actually have fun learning in.
It's preposterous.
In the context of a game with pre defined parameters, that's what you need to do if that is the thrill you seek.
I don't find purposely gimping myself thrilling. I find it stupid. In any context.
Then you aren't interested in challenge.
Move along.
Challenge is key part of gameplay, but not the only part. Another essential part of any RPG is your build. You may go for full glass-cannon build in VMA for example with reward of higher scores but this will require times more skill then completing VMA as petsorc or WW. But in overland even if you are full glass cannon you still cannot die.. so if you remove your armor etc you will simply kill mobs longer, but they still can't kill you if you do basic actions like not standing in aoe and blocking/dodging heavy attacks. So now you will propose not to dodge aoes and heavy attacks? what's left of gameplay then? you don't have build, you can't use CP perks which unlock mechanics, you can't use active defense, you can't use heals.. so you just stay in front of mobs in aoe light attacking them and then you finally die and feel accomplishment - "I finally found challenge"?
I know.
The whole point of an RPG is to make your character more powerful by collecting gear and experience. This idea that you should remove all of that to try and make the game more fun is like saying you should get rid of the football to have fun on a football field. It defeats the whole purpose of the game itself - at which point there is really no point in playing it at all.
Um. Have to disagree. The whole point of an RPG is that I have fun playing it. And RP'ing it. Right now, with new faster 'net, I'm going to be able to do stuff I haven't been able to do before - like bar swapping.... And I'm going to fully enjoy that. But the bottom line for me is - I am having fun in this game.
When it stops being fun, I'll stop playing it. Making overland harder? Eh, nope thanks. I play games (especially TES) for the stories.
Now.... I'm on board for a toggle that gives people like you a DiD option. Go for it, ZOS. And when you die repeatedly.... well... remember you asked for it.
Hit dog barks.
I’d recommend actually reading the OP before posting comments unrelated to what’s being asked for. Also, if a tiny modicum of challenge would make a game unfun, then what you want is a graphic novel, not a game. There is no immersing yourself as hero in a world that poses no threat. No boss can kill you unless you quite literally stand in place and don’t attack with any weapon (which is given in the tutorials), no abilities (which are recommended by the level up advisor), no food (which you loot), no potions (which the game throws at you), no enchants (which are also thrown at you), you don’t block (which is taught in the tutorial), don’t bash (tutorial), and don’t dodge roll
We want actual quest bosses, we want something that gives a sense of accomplishment when we defeat it instead of feeling like we just stepped on a small bug because someone claimed that bug was a huge monsterous fiend that was nigh unstoppable to all challengers before we arrived
I can count on one hand the quest bosses that remotely felt like a boss, even with no CP, with no food, while standing on reds, not even following basic mechanics of the game.
The game sets up a big fight and a strong villain, and it fails to deliver in every way.
It is completely and utterly unreasonable, as well as plain stupid, to imply that the right way to get a challenge in the vast majority of this game’s content is to ignore everything the game has ever provided, and use none of the basic knowledge the TUTORIAL teaches you, then light attack everything to death.
That’s what you’re suggesting, to be crap at the game intentionally, and even then, the enemies still aren’t a threat. It’s ridiculous
Yeah, it would make game unfun for vast majority, game already died once when it was like YOU want it to be. Dont see it dieing now, in fact most agree its in its best shape since launch.
People need stop with this vast majority argument. Back then the crying about difficulty was just about as much as those saying it's too easy now. The game did not die because it was too hard. I didn't know anyone who thought it was too hard. I seen the occasional post, or in game message saying how to pass Doshia she's hard.
Most of the gripe. The thing that killed the game was the game breaking bugs that prevented people from actually progressing at all. And being sick of the grind. Not difficulty. But the incessant grind of never being able to reach your char's max potential. And if you did, it would be moved again next patch.
Did you play at launch? Craglorn was packed it was the hub of the game. What killed craglor was them raising the VR for 10 to 12 and leaving craglorn at Vr 10. Then add them not adding a sliver of content for damn near a year other then crypt of hearts while they fevrishly built the crown stoore and Console port. please research before you make ridiculous statements1 -
navystylz_ESO✭✭✭✭
WoW - trying to cater more to hardcore and raiders by forcing players into harder dungeon types and raids just to get through the past 2 expansions .
There's a reason why a lot of MMO's are referred to as "WoW clones" and not "EQ clones" or such..
I disagree with your GW2 reasoning. People tack "hard" onto everything that doesn't work and use it as an excuse to further their argument.
But WoW. Funny you should mention that. WoW, the game that started this death to consequences easy-mode trash MMOs are these days, is on their beta of classic wow. Wait, what? People liked the harder, more tedious, actually having to be social and careful of elite mibs gameplay of wow so much that a private server that had over 800k finally forced blizzard to capitalize on this by recreating their vanilla game. And you're trying to argue for the simplistic trash BfA is now using WoW as an example?? Buahahahahaha.
Gonna let you in on a secret. All the old harder MMOs have private server with people maintaining the traditional difficulty of MMO playing. Hell, Ultima Online still has a sub model! Only this past March they started allowing people who haven't played their account in 180 days to log in a free account that is much more limited than the sub one.
And here we are just asking for harder quest bosses and that you need to dodge, block and interrupt in game or actually take damage and we are unreasonable.
And FYI GW2 combat in base game and expansions require this of it's players or the damage will kill them. Trying to argue GW2 had to step the difficulty down or die is a bit ridiculous when the pre-80 stuff is much more dangerous than anything overland ESO has to offer.1 -
navystylz_ESO✭✭✭✭Sylvermynx wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »^ If that is all correct, I thank God that I avoided MMORPG genre for all my youth and that ESO has group content of good quality and amazing community so I can give up on unplayable (for me) overland without losing my characters.
That means you missed out on the Golden Age of MMORPG's.
I heard that games like Lineage 2 and WoW screwed so many lives, studies, careers, so I was sticking with single-player RPGs and multiplayer shooters for decade.. when ESO was released it was perceived in Skyrim's community as utter trash made not by Bethesda, so I avoided it too. Only "free week" and lack of decent new games lured me to ESO in 2018.. Bleakrock was so mind-dumbingly easy, crude and in-immersive that I was ready to quit, but arrival to Bal Foyen and actual big world sparked interest in me to visit all those places we read in TES books.
I played WoW and RIFT before ESO. I'm still playing Oblivion and Skyrim, as I really enjoy TES games (with mods of course in those to change things up).
I'm not really invested in MMOs - I started this one due to friends who play and posted screenies. Such a gorgeous world. It's fun, I love it. But should I live long enough for TES VI, it will be months or years even before I play ESO again, assuming it's still around....
Seems like a lot of the naysayers of difficulty aren't here for the MMO and only care about the progression of a TES story, so f-all to those who of us who want both...
Interesting to see what happens when all these people jump ship when Elder Scrolls 6 comes out and no one who wants the MMO experience is left because ZOS keeps pushing out nauseatingly easy graphic novel while charging premium prices.Edited by navystylz_ESO on June 1, 2019 7:51PM3 -
navystylz_ESO✭✭✭✭I agree with those who say that overland (including quests and delves) should stay as it is. It has exactly right difficulty. It is soloable with right approach and it will kill if the approach is wrong. I have 8 characters, 6 of them I have levelled strictly on daily delve quests. I almost never use food cause it is for dungeons.
With good gear and careful run I would keep my characters alive.
If I use 20-something gear on 40+ level character, its resistances and its damage are garbage, there is much more effort to stay alive. If I run through the delve and aggro more than 4 enemies, I would be in a position with zero stamina (because of running) for blocking or interrupting. Almost every single enemy has something to interrupt my character: rooting, entangling, silencing, disorientation... If you have no stamina, you are in trouble. If I would have zero self-heal skill because of the build for this character or because right now I'm levelling other skills and have no self-heal on the panel, then the chance to die for those 4+ enemies is very high.
I haven't finished Elsweyr story on live yet but I've done it on PTS. The last boss of the last quest is boring and tedious even for the high-level character. The reason is the so called mechanics. The fight is extremely long and not interesting at all. The good thing is that all other quest fights with quest bosses in the entire game are much better and much shorter for the experienced character (and player).
So your gear is severely underlelved, despite you saying you level in content that gives you gear of your level every time you go through it. You don't use the buffs the game literally throws at you, that I have to constantly sell to merchant because I don't want it. And you if you play stupidly by running through things, rather than killing them as their group size is intended, you only after ignoring your stats this far, might die from over pulling. So the difficulty is just right?1 -
navystylz_ESO✭✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.
Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.
they should NOT be a requirement for overworld. encouraged =/= must under all circumstances.
Its basic feature matter o fact your starting inventory it's right there. I dont know , I really feel like people expect the game to play it for them. I mean even solitaire has a challenge to it. No one is asking for lvl one to be skin of your neck encounters. People are asking for some sort of progression or at least a sliding scale so you can adjust. Lvl 1 you should be able to light attack and not use skills. But by level 50 the game should have increased the difficulty moderately along the way.
sigh. potions and food are required for dungeons, they are optional for overworld. as it should be.
to summarize, becasue you all keep side tracking and changing your angles.
the core of the argument. overworld is NOT too easy, its currently exactly where it should be.
Its really not . It's the same difficulty at lvl 1 as it is at lvl cp 320 fully geared. That means your character actually gets weaker as you lvl not stronger.
its... not. at early levels the game buffs you in order to entice you, then the game gets harder, until you get better at it, etc. at which point it becomes easier and easier. which is kinda the point. you as a player have gotten more powerful, because you understand the game better. its as it should be.
moreover.... if your character wasn't getting more powerful, then how in a world can the argument of "the overworld is too easy" even exist?? its contradictory to claim that the world is too easy, while also claiming that your character is not getting any more powerful.
Look these overland threads are dime a dozen. Its painfully obvious there are problems with Zos scaling with the long term player. It baffles me when the community brings a suggestion , the fan will automatically defend . I get it you like the overland faceroll easy it's fine. But many of the playerbase want some sort of additional challenge.
please don't even try to turn it into a "the fan automaticaly defending, becasue they are fans" thing.
yes I do like the "faceroll" because its not faceroll for me. its just relaxing enough to be engaging without being frustrating.
reminder. difficulty is in the eye of the beholder. one players faceroll is another player's just right and yet another player's just short of being too difficult to be enjoyed.
and once again, I'm not against OPTIONAL extra difficulty, as long as it doesn't negatively affect current state of overland or takes away from creation of content for current level of "challenge" i will fight TOOTH AND NAIL against anything with even a small whiff of "we need to change current overland to be harder"
only half the issue really . i dont care if they keep overland the same and give option for a VR zone its really what the Op is asking for. I dont for the life of me know why overland diffculty is such a hot issue when the real problems of the game that create a lot of this are so blaringly obvious. they cannot keep the CP system in this stagnant cess pool it is. nor can they continue to make progression about gaining new sets and rotating meta's the heart and soul of the game is dead they need to revive the core game design . each expansion sells less and less as players are getting bored with more lvl content with no lvls. necromancer was an obvious carrot on a stick to get this one to sell well. new class skill lines and additional layers to cp are desperately needed
Well they didn't increase the CP this time. They know it's an issue and are finally working on it. Who knows how long that will take.0 -
Kolache✭✭✭✭I think maybe a could way to do a veteran instance of the overworld would be to disable CP, increase difficulty however (+damage taken, -healing, whatever), then make it to where the zone you're in drops bound set items from whatever dungeons are in that zone.
Set collecting breathed life into the game with 1T, so we know that works. If the items are bound just like the dungeons they come from then the economic impact should be minimal... and to boot, these veteran overland areas would still be easier than DLC dungeons by a good margin, so it would be a way for people who can't/don't want to do DLC dungeons to get new sets.
So you'd have a way for new DLC overland/quests to entertain even veteran players and also give a DLC dungeon alternative for casuals to get DLC dungeon gear. Win/win
Something being unbalanced in 1v1 does not imply that it is balanced in group play.1 -
navystylz_ESO✭✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »navystylz_ESO wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Why don't you remove all your CP's, and take your gear off if you want difficulty for the sake of difficulty?
People already have, and it’s still pointlessly easybarney2525 wrote: »navystylz_ESO wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »navystylz_ESO wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »
You are right. No one mentioned the rewards.
But no one ever mentions their Real ultimate goals either.
Must be really nice for people like you to pull absolutely BS out their arse to attack that argument, rather than the on-going actual discussion. You have NEVER gotten good rewards from quest content. NEVER. So this fixation and pretending peopel thinking overland content is too easy because they want better rewards is just inane. Stop. Just stop.
Nope
If you had paid any attention, you would have seen I have been addressing the issue.
The idea that the Main Focus of this or any other game of this type is to have the "wandering monsters" be the most dangerous and horribly hard for characters to kill is just plain ridiculous. The character needs to get from point A to point B to pursue the actual Mission (whatever it may be). Overland is simply Filler. It's Nuisance. It is DESIGNED to be minimal effort - especially for higher powered characters. To think otherwise makes no sense. It is NOT a Major part of the game.
So, if I see someone so adamant about Making it some Major part of the game, I start wondering Why. It's Not because "it's too easy". That would be something you complain about if you get to a world boss and it falls over in 3 hits.
That's Not what Overland is. Overland is Not Supposed to be hard, and it is functioning Exactly as it is supposed to. You tell me - WHY DOES ANYONE CARE THAT IS IS EASY TO GET FROM POINT A TO POINT B?
IMHOI can run through everything just like I would with CP and gear on. There's virtually no chance of me dying against trash mobs, even the "bosses" of quests are not a challenge. When we talk about the game being too easy, this is the number one issue.But you know some of us, actually want a little bit of a challenge, we want to die to trash mobs if we aggro too many, ESPECIALLY in the overworld. Some of us want the bosses of quests or delves to be actually challenging
From the OP. And many of us clarified our positions with not including PBs, Dolmen, WBs. Explaining that the penultimate boss of a quest chain should feel like a boss. Though I have mentioned delves several times not included in the 'overland', I thought he meant the delve bosses that quests had you do, rather than the rando you kill because it's sits in there.It is NOT a Major part of the game.
It's a majority of the game. Most of the content is questing stuff that is overland and where that brings you. The content added each chapter and DLC, which continuously treats the whole world like it's an afterthought. That would have us suspend disbelief but tell us majordomo X is so powerful, and he dies in 2 hits.
Most of the time I quest I feel resentment that quest bits aren't instanced, that not only do I have to deal with extremely easy bosses, but there's a good chance some random person runs in and starts nuking them too. Now boss that I could kill in a few hits myself, instantly dies completely destroying any immersion in the story.Maybe I'm older than you are, But Nobody complains this hard about something this insignificant without having Something else that they want to accomplish.
Could be. Maybe not. Or could be that people just are incapable of arguing a position as stated. How hard is it to understand that this game with every chapter and DLC release, brings for another story arc. One that can be smashed through solo, but generally have a bunch of other players smashing through with you, extremely easily.
I came to the forums because after doing Elsweyr completion I just felt cheated. Most of the story was good but I left it feeling like the experience was cheapened by how easy it was. This left me feeling bored and wondering if that aspect of the game was even worth paying more money for.
At least in GW2 the living season come free as long as you are logged in during a particular bit. ESO makes you pay for it and the only reason I feel like this chapter was worth it is because the Necromancer. But I began to question redoing all the content of my original main on the new necromancer was actually going to keep me occupied without feeling like it was so easy that the story completion would leave me feeling more bored than entertained.
This is why I came to the forums. And lo and behold, right there on the first page was this thread with other people expressing the exact same concerns I was feeling.
I don't need more rewards. I don't need anything else except not feeling bored to tears doing the story content which makes up a majority of this game, and is only bearable when the storytelling is superb, which isn't always the case.
Disagree.
It's Not a Majority of the game because IF you want you can simply avoid it - Completely.
You do not have to fight Anything if you don't Choose to.
It Can't be considered a ' Majority ' of the game if it can be simply ignored.
I could not even estimate the many many many characters I have seen running across my screen, being pursued by several mobs. It's not that the character could not stop and kill them. The player just has better things to do - like reaching their actual objective and participating in whatever that issue is.
Overland is Flavor.
Now you’re just outright lying
Questing is not avoidable in any way. You need it for Psijic. You need it for crafting area access. You need it to have access to many dailies. You need it for skill points. You need it for Soul Magic. You need it to experience a damn story
You’re not some old wisened Yoda, you’re just being a nuisance who clearly has no interest in actual debate, who believes all players are infantile creatures that would immediately throw out the whole game if a quest boss actually had a chance to kill them.
Then start removing points from all your passives, and use only one bar, and don't LA weave. Just keep going down the list until you've found the right level of "difficulty" for yourself, then play the rest of the game that way.
That's like suggesting if someone is too smart for a class they should take a crowbar to their head until they are brain damaged enough to where that class challenges them - instead of seeking out a more challenging class they could actually have fun learning in.
It's preposterous.
In the context of a game with pre defined parameters, that's what you need to do if that is the thrill you seek.
I don't find purposely gimping myself thrilling. I find it stupid. In any context.
Then you aren't interested in challenge.
Move along.
Challenge is key part of gameplay, but not the only part. Another essential part of any RPG is your build. You may go for full glass-cannon build in VMA for example with reward of higher scores but this will require times more skill then completing VMA as petsorc or WW. But in overland even if you are full glass cannon you still cannot die.. so if you remove your armor etc you will simply kill mobs longer, but they still can't kill you if you do basic actions like not standing in aoe and blocking/dodging heavy attacks. So now you will propose not to dodge aoes and heavy attacks? what's left of gameplay then? you don't have build, you can't use CP perks which unlock mechanics, you can't use active defense, you can't use heals.. so you just stay in front of mobs in aoe light attacking them and then you finally die and feel accomplishment - "I finally found challenge"?
I know.
The whole point of an RPG is to make your character more powerful by collecting gear and experience. This idea that you should remove all of that to try and make the game more fun is like saying you should get rid of the football to have fun on a football field. It defeats the whole purpose of the game itself - at which point there is really no point in playing it at all.
Um. Have to disagree. The whole point of an RPG is that I have fun playing it. And RP'ing it. Right now, with new faster 'net, I'm going to be able to do stuff I haven't been able to do before - like bar swapping.... And I'm going to fully enjoy that. But the bottom line for me is - I am having fun in this game.
When it stops being fun, I'll stop playing it. Making overland harder? Eh, nope thanks. I play games (especially TES) for the stories.
Now.... I'm on board for a toggle that gives people like you a DiD option. Go for it, ZOS. And when you die repeatedly.... well... remember you asked for it.
Hit dog barks.
I’d recommend actually reading the OP before posting comments unrelated to what’s being asked for. Also, if a tiny modicum of challenge would make a game unfun, then what you want is a graphic novel, not a game. There is no immersing yourself as hero in a world that poses no threat. No boss can kill you unless you quite literally stand in place and don’t attack with any weapon (which is given in the tutorials), no abilities (which are recommended by the level up advisor), no food (which you loot), no potions (which the game throws at you), no enchants (which are also thrown at you), you don’t block (which is taught in the tutorial), don’t bash (tutorial), and don’t dodge roll
We want actual quest bosses, we want something that gives a sense of accomplishment when we defeat it instead of feeling like we just stepped on a small bug because someone claimed that bug was a huge monsterous fiend that was nigh unstoppable to all challengers before we arrived
I can count on one hand the quest bosses that remotely felt like a boss, even with no CP, with no food, while standing on reds, not even following basic mechanics of the game.
The game sets up a big fight and a strong villain, and it fails to deliver in every way.
It is completely and utterly unreasonable, as well as plain stupid, to imply that the right way to get a challenge in the vast majority of this game’s content is to ignore everything the game has ever provided, and use none of the basic knowledge the TUTORIAL teaches you, then light attack everything to death.
That’s what you’re suggesting, to be crap at the game intentionally, and even then, the enemies still aren’t a threat. It’s ridiculous
Yeah, it would make game unfun for vast majority, game already died once when it was like YOU want it to be. Dont see it dieing now, in fact most agree its in its best shape since launch.
People need stop with this vast majority argument. Back then the crying about difficulty was just about as much as those saying it's too easy now. The game did not die because it was too hard. I didn't know anyone who thought it was too hard. I seen the occasional post, or in game message saying how to pass Doshia she's hard.
Most of the gripe. The thing that killed the game was the game breaking bugs that prevented people from actually progressing at all. And being sick of the grind. Not difficulty. But the incessant grind of never being able to reach your char's max potential. And if you did, it would be moved again next patch.
Did you play at launch? Craglorn was packed it was the hub of the game. What killed craglor was them raising the VR for 10 to 12 and leaving craglorn at Vr 10. Then add them not adding a sliver of content for damn near a year other then crypt of hearts while they fevrishly built the crown stoore and Console port. please research before you make ridiculous statements
Yes, I've played since first day early access. I assumed they were talking about Caldwell silver and gold as veteran zones and not Craglorn because they said zones plural. I wasn't speaking about Craglorn. And I've mentioned several times, as someone who liked the difficulty then, but who hated VR levels constantly increasing, it was the grind and not the difficulty I seen spoken about the most.0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭navystylz_ESO wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »the reality of the challenging games is that it just takes a moment to figure out the flow of the combat and timing and get used to it and then execute it. and harder games don't leave you much margin for error. kinda like DLC veteran dungeons. which most ESO people oh so love /sarcasm. the other truth is that most people NEED that margin for error. without it the game becomes impossible for them.
Everyone makes difficulty tuning sound so binary... it either has to be easy enough for the lowest common denominator or it has to be too difficult for the majority of the players? Personally, I think most of the game should live in the space between learning how combat works and small margins for error.
I don't think we should expect most players to ever get to vet DLC dungeon difficulty (or want to). I don't think that means expecting everyone else to never grasp combat 101.
its not the understanding. its the execution of said understanding. and it is. that. binary. you either have someone who CAN execute and execute quickly and for them, the moment they learn - it stops being challenging. or you have people who have trouble with execution and need that margin for error, for the fights to be forgiving. the fact that these fights are so forgiving is quite literally the main part of "its too easy" complaint
Difficulty in an ARPG (or whatever you want to call it) like this doesn't just come down to reaction times. For example, at what level do you think a player should learn when to eat food or drink a potion? At some level, should the difficulty should be tuned assuming that the character has eaten food and is carrying a potion? If so, how long do you think a new player should take to figure this out (assuming proper tutorials)... if not, what exactly is the problem with expecting people to use consumables in ESO if they need help?
and how do you propose to tune that? enforce eating food or drinks that have health component? not all of them do. enforce enchanting for health? we already get potions as rewards, but not a ton of them, so are we enforcing crafting or buying those potions now? are we going to start enforcing minimum health now? a knowledgeable player just gets more health and all the challenge is gone for them. just. like. that.
again.
meanwhile someone who doesn't have a crafter available to get those potions/food going - are stuck.
Who needs a crafter to get food/potions? People practically throw them away, especially lower levels ones on the guild trader assuming you don't have plenty from just looting the scenery. So you demonstrate that it's not just about reaction times that people can't overcome.. it's about any slight inconvenience that anyone is unwilling to even try to overcome, like learning anything at all about the game or choosing to apply what you've learned.
You make this newbies sound like a real miserable group of layabouts! I'm more optimistic--I think that most people are capable of getting better at this game and having fun doing it, there's just not good incentive to do it. People end up as DPS in dungeon groups only spamming bow light attacks in heavy armor with magicka self heals because there's really no reason not to before then.
I'm sure there are some poor souls who need as much consideration as you would give them, but I personally haven't been exposed to players so delicate that they had no hope of improving. There's no point in deciding what sort of difficulty increase would be trivial for veterans if any difficulty increase at all is off the table. (This is also assuming that it's impossible to have separate difficulties like we do in the rest of the game).
1. its not merely about improving. its about creating unnecessary discouraging obstacles
2. it fascinates me that rather then save yourself some gold and play overworld without potions and food, you'd rather force newer players who are still figuring things out and don't have gold reserves to just go around shopping guild traders for potions and food, hoping that there is something available pre lvl 50 they can use.
1. A MINOR DIFFICULTY is not “”unnecessarily discouraging””. In fact is encouraging players to use the tactics that were taught to to them. To use the resources throw at them at every moment.
2. You’re pulling this out your rear end. The game throws potions, poisons, exp scrolls, and soul gems at players for free every month, on top of being thrown at them any time they loot enemies. Potions and glyphs are easily obtained jut by killing things, food is literally sitting on tables free for the taking in just about any human-populated delve.
You really are just dead set against any kind of challenge. Anything that might threaten the visual novel questing we have right now. Why do you want the whole of questing to be effortless and boring? What good does it do? Do you really think players are so bad and lazy that they wouldn’t use the tools provided to them when it would actually give a needed boost?
I'm still amused that you would rather make potions and food a requirement than just... not use them yourself. its fascinating.
and I'm dead set against YOUR IDEA of what baseline level of challenge should be.
and for the record I'm not against OPTIONAL harder content. you want delves you can select difficulty for? fine. go for it. I'm against what some of you want here - increasing overall BASELINE requirements to succeed in overland.
Listen to yourself
You’re saying using tools given by the game isn’t how someone should play? You’re a very dedicated troll, I’ll give you that
If using the baseline, most simple aspects of the game makes the questing dull and unsatisfying in its complete lack of challenge, then the game was poorly designed
- basic mechanics like block, bash, and dodge
- wearing any armor
- using a weapon
- using skills
- allocating attributes
- using potions, food, or enchants the game gives you for free
Players that use none of these absolutely, 100% should be dying to quest bosses. Not overland trash maybe, but quest bosses should force people to use the basic game tools given to them
to your bolded. they. DO. die. already. that is the POINT.
also. don't put potions and food into the same category as skills and weapons. and please stop complaining if you are maxing out your character and then finding the game easy. I've personaly been playing without food and potion use most of the time and surviving a dragon with 10k health is a heck of a lot more challenging than with 17k. you have in game tools to make the game a bit more engaging. you refuse to use them, becasue you think the game should be tuned to what... max level character that is using personal raid buffs?
and you call ME a troll. heh
I wont call you a troll but the thought of anyone believing players shouldnt be encouraged to use the basic tools to succeed is asanine to me.
Food and potions absolutely should belong in the same catagory as skills and gear.
they should NOT be a requirement for overworld. encouraged =/= must under all circumstances.
Its basic feature matter o fact your starting inventory it's right there. I dont know , I really feel like people expect the game to play it for them. I mean even solitaire has a challenge to it. No one is asking for lvl one to be skin of your neck encounters. People are asking for some sort of progression or at least a sliding scale so you can adjust. Lvl 1 you should be able to light attack and not use skills. But by level 50 the game should have increased the difficulty moderately along the way.
sigh. potions and food are required for dungeons, they are optional for overworld. as it should be.
to summarize, becasue you all keep side tracking and changing your angles.
the core of the argument. overworld is NOT too easy, its currently exactly where it should be.
Its really not . It's the same difficulty at lvl 1 as it is at lvl cp 320 fully geared. That means your character actually gets weaker as you lvl not stronger.
its... not. at early levels the game buffs you in order to entice you, then the game gets harder, until you get better at it, etc. at which point it becomes easier and easier. which is kinda the point. you as a player have gotten more powerful, because you understand the game better. its as it should be.
moreover.... if your character wasn't getting more powerful, then how in a world can the argument of "the overworld is too easy" even exist?? its contradictory to claim that the world is too easy, while also claiming that your character is not getting any more powerful.
Look these overland threads are dime a dozen. Its painfully obvious there are problems with Zos scaling with the long term player. It baffles me when the community brings a suggestion , the fan will automatically defend . I get it you like the overland faceroll easy it's fine. But many of the playerbase want some sort of additional challenge.
please don't even try to turn it into a "the fan automaticaly defending, becasue they are fans" thing.
yes I do like the "faceroll" because its not faceroll for me. its just relaxing enough to be engaging without being frustrating.
reminder. difficulty is in the eye of the beholder. one players faceroll is another player's just right and yet another player's just short of being too difficult to be enjoyed.
and once again, I'm not against OPTIONAL extra difficulty, as long as it doesn't negatively affect current state of overland or takes away from creation of content for current level of "challenge" i will fight TOOTH AND NAIL against anything with even a small whiff of "we need to change current overland to be harder"
only half the issue really . i dont care if they keep overland the same and give option for a VR zone its really what the Op is asking for. I dont for the life of me know why overland diffculty is such a hot issue when the real problems of the game that create a lot of this are so blaringly obvious. they cannot keep the CP system in this stagnant cess pool it is. nor can they continue to make progression about gaining new sets and rotating meta's the heart and soul of the game is dead they need to revive the core game design . each expansion sells less and less as players are getting bored with more lvl content with no lvls. necromancer was an obvious carrot on a stick to get this one to sell well. new class skill lines and additional layers to cp are desperately needed
Well they didn't increase the CP this time. They know it's an issue and are finally working on it. Who knows how long that will take.
Sorry, but CP alone is not an issue. CP provides ~+50% to damage and ~+50% to damage mitigation. Removal of this is not even close to make quest/delve bosses a threat to player.Edited by MartiniDaniels on June 1, 2019 8:07PM2 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭navystylz_ESO wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »^ If that is all correct, I thank God that I avoided MMORPG genre for all my youth and that ESO has group content of good quality and amazing community so I can give up on unplayable (for me) overland without losing my characters.
That means you missed out on the Golden Age of MMORPG's.
I heard that games like Lineage 2 and WoW screwed so many lives, studies, careers, so I was sticking with single-player RPGs and multiplayer shooters for decade.. when ESO was released it was perceived in Skyrim's community as utter trash made not by Bethesda, so I avoided it too. Only "free week" and lack of decent new games lured me to ESO in 2018.. Bleakrock was so mind-dumbingly easy, crude and in-immersive that I was ready to quit, but arrival to Bal Foyen and actual big world sparked interest in me to visit all those places we read in TES books.
I played WoW and RIFT before ESO. I'm still playing Oblivion and Skyrim, as I really enjoy TES games (with mods of course in those to change things up).
I'm not really invested in MMOs - I started this one due to friends who play and posted screenies. Such a gorgeous world. It's fun, I love it. But should I live long enough for TES VI, it will be months or years even before I play ESO again, assuming it's still around....
Seems like a lot of the naysayers of difficulty aren't here for the MMO and only care about the progression of a TES story, so f-all to those who of us who want both...
Interesting to see what happens when all these people jump ship when Elder Scrolls 6 comes out and no one who wants the MMO experience is left because ZOS keeps pushing out nauseatingly easy graphic novel while charging premium prices.
That is the blunt truth right there but the angry mob of players that dont actually play the whole game are coming to burn your reply down lol. its a sad day when i enjoy tanking the forums then tanking in the actual game.1 -
Reistr_the_Unbroken✭✭✭✭✭
✭exeeter702 wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Completely wrong.exeeter702 wrote: »
i dont get why you would draw the line at "legendary". An organic difficulty curve that adheres to an overall game wide standard where valuable lessons are taught to new players as they progress through overland content is not the same as wanting a legendary overland mode. This has nothing to do with single player TES entries as they are fundamentally different games and obey entirely different rules, im purely speaking on behalf of games willing to tell it players its ok to fail and provide them with the necessary tools and information to overcome a challenge or otherwise achieve a win condition. There is very little meaningful engagement for those that want some form of push back or opposition in overland content which again goes back to my intial point...
Exeeter702.. those who want a harder content would loose that fight... unless a mod could be made or new version come out with "legendary " on it... ESO is based on the other TES games. . And the overworld pretty much works the same way. Not exactly..because of the nature of single person versus MMO...Ingvar798_ESO wrote: »Wanted to drop my 2c as I feel this issue is really hurting an otherwise amazing game.
I would not call myself a veteran player. I played the game at launch for a few months. Came back for Morrowind for a few weeks, and have now returned for Elsweyr.
Much to my dismay, having leveled my Necro to 50, all of this challenge is gone. I quickly realized that I could pull 10+ mobs at a time and AoE them down, all while keeping my health near max (thanks scythe ability). Group content is easily solo-able, even Skyreach/Craglorn. To be fair, there's a few pieces of content that I had trouble soloing in Craglorn.
To me this makes the Overworld content very bland/boring. I do enjoy the story in ESO, but most of the time the immersion is completely ruined by some NPC telling me how dangerous this guy is, and then I run over and 3 shot them and all their goons. The story fundamentally breaks in these incidents. Personally the content in Overworld felt so boring that I almost quit, just a few days returned.
<snipped for length >
The dungeons have always been harder... though truthfully, away from towns and starter areas was too. But you had ( usually) leveled by the time you got there... so only slightly more challenging, unless you min/maxed.. then not challenging at all.
Compartmentalized content that caters to isolated player demographcis is fine if you want to create a space for every type of player. The issue with this design approach is that when a player on the lower spectrum decides to venture outside their comfort zone, they tend to acclimate very poorly. Creating more meaningful overland opposition potentially solves the issue of players becoming better rather than plateauing. It doenst have to be extraordinarily difficult obviously and no one suggests as much. I simply come from the generation/mindset that believes the best kind of online games are the ones that treat all players as equals right out of the gates, provides the necessary tools to succeed and tells them to sink or swim while offering various teirs of content with varying ranges of difficulty.
I'm also of the generation/mindset that feels there is little reason to play game if you arent engaged enough to desire improving and overcoming a challenge. I believe therenare 2 kinds of people (gamers) that after an 8 hour day, there are those that sit down with controller /kb mouse in hand and want to shut their brian off and those that want to turn it up to 11. And that is coming from a early 30s family man with a salary job.
Creating a meaningful overland environment for cp 810 characters is an entirely separate can of worms but for myself and my friends in game, this has effected are ability to enjoy all of the 3 chapters released.
The game you are advocating for would fail. Why? Due to you seemingly believing the majority of gamers play videogames, ESO in particular, to work towards harder content. That just simply isn't the case. I think the devs are well aware of the numbers we don't have access to and have consistently dismissed this because they know for a fact it would be a worthless time/money sink for little profit. Yes I care about their profits as it directly affects my gameplay experience.
.
Most popular games are PVP games where people kill each other dozens and hundreds times for days and there is actual challenge at every step.
If you'll say that ESO overland is more like single-player experience, let's then take Witcher 3, in the beginning that archgryphon and ghost "bosses" in White Orchard require tactics and reaction to deal with them even in normal difficulty when you play first time... and this doesn't stopped W3 to be sold at 20M+ and be praised by everyone. In Skyrim until you min-max to certain level on normal difficulty you will be smashed by any giant/dragon priest/draugr lord if you don't use some kind of tactics... Aldmeri Ambassy is quite challenging and requires some brain activity.. even on the road to High Hrotgar you will meet white bear and snow troll which will torn your lvl5 char in parts if you just rush on them. 30M+ sales. From the recent - Divinity Original Sin 2 - this game simply brings your ass to you in each encounter, which doesn't prevented it to become very popular despite very specific non-casual gameplay.
95% of the best and most successful RPGs in the history will kill you within several seconds on normal difficulty if you will run forward spamming light attacks on enemy of comparable level. Of course there are exploits everywhere, but we are talking about new players. So your argument is wrong. Majority of players play game for gameplay and overcoming challenges game provides, and not to go around picking flowers and listening how somebody cursed some village and you need to close 4 portals to abort this..
First off, except for Skyrim, I've never heard of any of these games. I've been watching videos for the past three years about what the best games to play are currently and what will be coming out and I STILL have never heard of any of the games aside from Skyrim.
If they are/were so great, where are they? Why aren't they listed in Any top 25 MMOs to play?
You are throwing statements out as if they were fact, but no documentation whatsoever. Where are you coming up with these numbers? ESPECIALLY the percentage on the second bold line.
And then I see - You are NOT talking about MMOs. You are talking about RPGs. Games you buy and play by yourself.
And the third bold is completely wrong because No One, not you, not me, not anyone else here can definitively state WHY each and every person plays an MMO. There are so many different reason, THERE IS NO MAJORITY.
Archeage is a beautiful game that is horrendously broken and yet it still functions BECAUSE it has the unique feature that it caters to ALL walks. You want to PvP? You can spend either years grinding or thousands of dollars to get near to top of the gear gap (which was about 14k gear score when I finally quit). Or you can farm, do traderuns, build homes, decorate, make millions in gold and NEVER have to swing a weapon. Or you can go do quests and make gold farming critters. Or go out to the Ocean in your boat and search for treasure chests next to wrecks on the sea floor. Or you can just hang out with friends and do silly stuff like sail your boat on land.
People play games for MANY different reasons. There is NO Majority.
Divinity 2 and witcher 3 are 2 of the most well recieved and critically praised rpgs of the last decade you plebian.
Have never heard of either of those0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Completely wrong.exeeter702 wrote: »
i dont get why you would draw the line at "legendary". An organic difficulty curve that adheres to an overall game wide standard where valuable lessons are taught to new players as they progress through overland content is not the same as wanting a legendary overland mode. This has nothing to do with single player TES entries as they are fundamentally different games and obey entirely different rules, im purely speaking on behalf of games willing to tell it players its ok to fail and provide them with the necessary tools and information to overcome a challenge or otherwise achieve a win condition. There is very little meaningful engagement for those that want some form of push back or opposition in overland content which again goes back to my intial point...
Exeeter702.. those who want a harder content would loose that fight... unless a mod could be made or new version come out with "legendary " on it... ESO is based on the other TES games. . And the overworld pretty much works the same way. Not exactly..because of the nature of single person versus MMO...Ingvar798_ESO wrote: »Wanted to drop my 2c as I feel this issue is really hurting an otherwise amazing game.
I would not call myself a veteran player. I played the game at launch for a few months. Came back for Morrowind for a few weeks, and have now returned for Elsweyr.
Much to my dismay, having leveled my Necro to 50, all of this challenge is gone. I quickly realized that I could pull 10+ mobs at a time and AoE them down, all while keeping my health near max (thanks scythe ability). Group content is easily solo-able, even Skyreach/Craglorn. To be fair, there's a few pieces of content that I had trouble soloing in Craglorn.
To me this makes the Overworld content very bland/boring. I do enjoy the story in ESO, but most of the time the immersion is completely ruined by some NPC telling me how dangerous this guy is, and then I run over and 3 shot them and all their goons. The story fundamentally breaks in these incidents. Personally the content in Overworld felt so boring that I almost quit, just a few days returned.
<snipped for length >
The dungeons have always been harder... though truthfully, away from towns and starter areas was too. But you had ( usually) leveled by the time you got there... so only slightly more challenging, unless you min/maxed.. then not challenging at all.
Compartmentalized content that caters to isolated player demographcis is fine if you want to create a space for every type of player. The issue with this design approach is that when a player on the lower spectrum decides to venture outside their comfort zone, they tend to acclimate very poorly. Creating more meaningful overland opposition potentially solves the issue of players becoming better rather than plateauing. It doenst have to be extraordinarily difficult obviously and no one suggests as much. I simply come from the generation/mindset that believes the best kind of online games are the ones that treat all players as equals right out of the gates, provides the necessary tools to succeed and tells them to sink or swim while offering various teirs of content with varying ranges of difficulty.
I'm also of the generation/mindset that feels there is little reason to play game if you arent engaged enough to desire improving and overcoming a challenge. I believe therenare 2 kinds of people (gamers) that after an 8 hour day, there are those that sit down with controller /kb mouse in hand and want to shut their brian off and those that want to turn it up to 11. And that is coming from a early 30s family man with a salary job.
Creating a meaningful overland environment for cp 810 characters is an entirely separate can of worms but for myself and my friends in game, this has effected are ability to enjoy all of the 3 chapters released.
The game you are advocating for would fail. Why? Due to you seemingly believing the majority of gamers play videogames, ESO in particular, to work towards harder content. That just simply isn't the case. I think the devs are well aware of the numbers we don't have access to and have consistently dismissed this because they know for a fact it would be a worthless time/money sink for little profit. Yes I care about their profits as it directly affects my gameplay experience.
.
Most popular games are PVP games where people kill each other dozens and hundreds times for days and there is actual challenge at every step.
If you'll say that ESO overland is more like single-player experience, let's then take Witcher 3, in the beginning that archgryphon and ghost "bosses" in White Orchard require tactics and reaction to deal with them even in normal difficulty when you play first time... and this doesn't stopped W3 to be sold at 20M+ and be praised by everyone. In Skyrim until you min-max to certain level on normal difficulty you will be smashed by any giant/dragon priest/draugr lord if you don't use some kind of tactics... Aldmeri Ambassy is quite challenging and requires some brain activity.. even on the road to High Hrotgar you will meet white bear and snow troll which will torn your lvl5 char in parts if you just rush on them. 30M+ sales. From the recent - Divinity Original Sin 2 - this game simply brings your ass to you in each encounter, which doesn't prevented it to become very popular despite very specific non-casual gameplay.
95% of the best and most successful RPGs in the history will kill you within several seconds on normal difficulty if you will run forward spamming light attacks on enemy of comparable level. Of course there are exploits everywhere, but we are talking about new players. So your argument is wrong. Majority of players play game for gameplay and overcoming challenges game provides, and not to go around picking flowers and listening how somebody cursed some village and you need to close 4 portals to abort this..
First off, except for Skyrim, I've never heard of any of these games. I've been watching videos for the past three years about what the best games to play are currently and what will be coming out and I STILL have never heard of any of the games aside from Skyrim.
If they are/were so great, where are they? Why aren't they listed in Any top 25 MMOs to play?
You are throwing statements out as if they were fact, but no documentation whatsoever. Where are you coming up with these numbers? ESPECIALLY the percentage on the second bold line.
And then I see - You are NOT talking about MMOs. You are talking about RPGs. Games you buy and play by yourself.
And the third bold is completely wrong because No One, not you, not me, not anyone else here can definitively state WHY each and every person plays an MMO. There are so many different reason, THERE IS NO MAJORITY.
Archeage is a beautiful game that is horrendously broken and yet it still functions BECAUSE it has the unique feature that it caters to ALL walks. You want to PvP? You can spend either years grinding or thousands of dollars to get near to top of the gear gap (which was about 14k gear score when I finally quit). Or you can farm, do traderuns, build homes, decorate, make millions in gold and NEVER have to swing a weapon. Or you can go do quests and make gold farming critters. Or go out to the Ocean in your boat and search for treasure chests next to wrecks on the sea floor. Or you can just hang out with friends and do silly stuff like sail your boat on land.
People play games for MANY different reasons. There is NO Majority.
Divinity 2 and witcher 3 are 2 of the most well recieved and critically praised rpgs of the last decade you plebian.
Have never heard of either of those
Witcher 3 is basically best RPG released from 2012, if you didn't play it, I strongly advise to take a break from ESO for a month and give it a try, it is sold cheaper then crown store costume now. This is marvelous game.
I won't say it is better then Skyrim, Morrowind, Baldur's gate and Mass Effect 1-2, but it is in same league.1 -
Massacre_Wurm✭✭✭✭✭Right , lets buff overland content and make old zones unplayable. I had to w8 almost an hour untill i find 2 other people for WB daily quest in Morrowind today.1
-
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Completely wrong.exeeter702 wrote: »
i dont get why you would draw the line at "legendary". An organic difficulty curve that adheres to an overall game wide standard where valuable lessons are taught to new players as they progress through overland content is not the same as wanting a legendary overland mode. This has nothing to do with single player TES entries as they are fundamentally different games and obey entirely different rules, im purely speaking on behalf of games willing to tell it players its ok to fail and provide them with the necessary tools and information to overcome a challenge or otherwise achieve a win condition. There is very little meaningful engagement for those that want some form of push back or opposition in overland content which again goes back to my intial point...
Exeeter702.. those who want a harder content would loose that fight... unless a mod could be made or new version come out with "legendary " on it... ESO is based on the other TES games. . And the overworld pretty much works the same way. Not exactly..because of the nature of single person versus MMO...Ingvar798_ESO wrote: »Wanted to drop my 2c as I feel this issue is really hurting an otherwise amazing game.
I would not call myself a veteran player. I played the game at launch for a few months. Came back for Morrowind for a few weeks, and have now returned for Elsweyr.
Much to my dismay, having leveled my Necro to 50, all of this challenge is gone. I quickly realized that I could pull 10+ mobs at a time and AoE them down, all while keeping my health near max (thanks scythe ability). Group content is easily solo-able, even Skyreach/Craglorn. To be fair, there's a few pieces of content that I had trouble soloing in Craglorn.
To me this makes the Overworld content very bland/boring. I do enjoy the story in ESO, but most of the time the immersion is completely ruined by some NPC telling me how dangerous this guy is, and then I run over and 3 shot them and all their goons. The story fundamentally breaks in these incidents. Personally the content in Overworld felt so boring that I almost quit, just a few days returned.
<snipped for length >
The dungeons have always been harder... though truthfully, away from towns and starter areas was too. But you had ( usually) leveled by the time you got there... so only slightly more challenging, unless you min/maxed.. then not challenging at all.
Compartmentalized content that caters to isolated player demographcis is fine if you want to create a space for every type of player. The issue with this design approach is that when a player on the lower spectrum decides to venture outside their comfort zone, they tend to acclimate very poorly. Creating more meaningful overland opposition potentially solves the issue of players becoming better rather than plateauing. It doenst have to be extraordinarily difficult obviously and no one suggests as much. I simply come from the generation/mindset that believes the best kind of online games are the ones that treat all players as equals right out of the gates, provides the necessary tools to succeed and tells them to sink or swim while offering various teirs of content with varying ranges of difficulty.
I'm also of the generation/mindset that feels there is little reason to play game if you arent engaged enough to desire improving and overcoming a challenge. I believe therenare 2 kinds of people (gamers) that after an 8 hour day, there are those that sit down with controller /kb mouse in hand and want to shut their brian off and those that want to turn it up to 11. And that is coming from a early 30s family man with a salary job.
Creating a meaningful overland environment for cp 810 characters is an entirely separate can of worms but for myself and my friends in game, this has effected are ability to enjoy all of the 3 chapters released.
The game you are advocating for would fail. Why? Due to you seemingly believing the majority of gamers play videogames, ESO in particular, to work towards harder content. That just simply isn't the case. I think the devs are well aware of the numbers we don't have access to and have consistently dismissed this because they know for a fact it would be a worthless time/money sink for little profit. Yes I care about their profits as it directly affects my gameplay experience.
.
Most popular games are PVP games where people kill each other dozens and hundreds times for days and there is actual challenge at every step.
If you'll say that ESO overland is more like single-player experience, let's then take Witcher 3, in the beginning that archgryphon and ghost "bosses" in White Orchard require tactics and reaction to deal with them even in normal difficulty when you play first time... and this doesn't stopped W3 to be sold at 20M+ and be praised by everyone. In Skyrim until you min-max to certain level on normal difficulty you will be smashed by any giant/dragon priest/draugr lord if you don't use some kind of tactics... Aldmeri Ambassy is quite challenging and requires some brain activity.. even on the road to High Hrotgar you will meet white bear and snow troll which will torn your lvl5 char in parts if you just rush on them. 30M+ sales. From the recent - Divinity Original Sin 2 - this game simply brings your ass to you in each encounter, which doesn't prevented it to become very popular despite very specific non-casual gameplay.
95% of the best and most successful RPGs in the history will kill you within several seconds on normal difficulty if you will run forward spamming light attacks on enemy of comparable level. Of course there are exploits everywhere, but we are talking about new players. So your argument is wrong. Majority of players play game for gameplay and overcoming challenges game provides, and not to go around picking flowers and listening how somebody cursed some village and you need to close 4 portals to abort this..
First off, except for Skyrim, I've never heard of any of these games. I've been watching videos for the past three years about what the best games to play are currently and what will be coming out and I STILL have never heard of any of the games aside from Skyrim.
If they are/were so great, where are they? Why aren't they listed in Any top 25 MMOs to play?
You are throwing statements out as if they were fact, but no documentation whatsoever. Where are you coming up with these numbers? ESPECIALLY the percentage on the second bold line.
And then I see - You are NOT talking about MMOs. You are talking about RPGs. Games you buy and play by yourself.
And the third bold is completely wrong because No One, not you, not me, not anyone else here can definitively state WHY each and every person plays an MMO. There are so many different reason, THERE IS NO MAJORITY.
Archeage is a beautiful game that is horrendously broken and yet it still functions BECAUSE it has the unique feature that it caters to ALL walks. You want to PvP? You can spend either years grinding or thousands of dollars to get near to top of the gear gap (which was about 14k gear score when I finally quit). Or you can farm, do traderuns, build homes, decorate, make millions in gold and NEVER have to swing a weapon. Or you can go do quests and make gold farming critters. Or go out to the Ocean in your boat and search for treasure chests next to wrecks on the sea floor. Or you can just hang out with friends and do silly stuff like sail your boat on land.
People play games for MANY different reasons. There is NO Majority.
Divinity 2 and witcher 3 are 2 of the most well recieved and critically praised rpgs of the last decade you plebian.
Have never heard of either of those
Regardless, it doenst make my statement any less true and the point of those games being mentioned was already take out of context once in this thread.
The post that mentioned these 2 games were using them as a reference point for which to explain what exactly motivates a player in an rpg, challenge and progression vs pure story experience. These games were mentioned because they do not coddle the player and on their basic out of the box settings expext a degree of effort from players that play them. They are not mmos and adhere to entirely different design philosophies but were mentioned to point put that they were wildly successful in large part due to the elements i just mentioned.
The reply i made was directed to an individual that claimed those games were unknown to them, implying they were not noteworthy or relavant to sight as examples because they were not "successful" games in that persons mind which is pure abject nonsense.Edited by exeeter702 on June 1, 2019 8:45PM2 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't agree at all with the whole "make overland harder" thing, but...
...if you haven't heard of Witcher 3, you just haven't paid attention to fantasy RPG games in the last decade. Being an RPG player and saying you haven't heard of Witcher 3, is like saying you're a movie watcher but haven't heard of this "Star Wars" thing.7 -
navystylz_ESO✭✭✭✭Massacre_Wurm wrote: »Right , lets buff overland content and make old zones unplayable. I had to w8 almost an hour untill i find 2 other people for WB daily quest in Morrowind today.
Why do people keep talking about World Bosses? Holy heck the reading comprehension in these forums. I suggest some need stop playing this game and go take English lessons before anything.3 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Completely wrong.exeeter702 wrote: »
i dont get why you would draw the line at "legendary". An organic difficulty curve that adheres to an overall game wide standard where valuable lessons are taught to new players as they progress through overland content is not the same as wanting a legendary overland mode. This has nothing to do with single player TES entries as they are fundamentally different games and obey entirely different rules, im purely speaking on behalf of games willing to tell it players its ok to fail and provide them with the necessary tools and information to overcome a challenge or otherwise achieve a win condition. There is very little meaningful engagement for those that want some form of push back or opposition in overland content which again goes back to my intial point...
Exeeter702.. those who want a harder content would loose that fight... unless a mod could be made or new version come out with "legendary " on it... ESO is based on the other TES games. . And the overworld pretty much works the same way. Not exactly..because of the nature of single person versus MMO...Ingvar798_ESO wrote: »Wanted to drop my 2c as I feel this issue is really hurting an otherwise amazing game.
I would not call myself a veteran player. I played the game at launch for a few months. Came back for Morrowind for a few weeks, and have now returned for Elsweyr.
Much to my dismay, having leveled my Necro to 50, all of this challenge is gone. I quickly realized that I could pull 10+ mobs at a time and AoE them down, all while keeping my health near max (thanks scythe ability). Group content is easily solo-able, even Skyreach/Craglorn. To be fair, there's a few pieces of content that I had trouble soloing in Craglorn.
To me this makes the Overworld content very bland/boring. I do enjoy the story in ESO, but most of the time the immersion is completely ruined by some NPC telling me how dangerous this guy is, and then I run over and 3 shot them and all their goons. The story fundamentally breaks in these incidents. Personally the content in Overworld felt so boring that I almost quit, just a few days returned.
<snipped for length >
The dungeons have always been harder... though truthfully, away from towns and starter areas was too. But you had ( usually) leveled by the time you got there... so only slightly more challenging, unless you min/maxed.. then not challenging at all.
Compartmentalized content that caters to isolated player demographcis is fine if you want to create a space for every type of player. The issue with this design approach is that when a player on the lower spectrum decides to venture outside their comfort zone, they tend to acclimate very poorly. Creating more meaningful overland opposition potentially solves the issue of players becoming better rather than plateauing. It doenst have to be extraordinarily difficult obviously and no one suggests as much. I simply come from the generation/mindset that believes the best kind of online games are the ones that treat all players as equals right out of the gates, provides the necessary tools to succeed and tells them to sink or swim while offering various teirs of content with varying ranges of difficulty.
I'm also of the generation/mindset that feels there is little reason to play game if you arent engaged enough to desire improving and overcoming a challenge. I believe therenare 2 kinds of people (gamers) that after an 8 hour day, there are those that sit down with controller /kb mouse in hand and want to shut their brian off and those that want to turn it up to 11. And that is coming from a early 30s family man with a salary job.
Creating a meaningful overland environment for cp 810 characters is an entirely separate can of worms but for myself and my friends in game, this has effected are ability to enjoy all of the 3 chapters released.
The game you are advocating for would fail. Why? Due to you seemingly believing the majority of gamers play videogames, ESO in particular, to work towards harder content. That just simply isn't the case. I think the devs are well aware of the numbers we don't have access to and have consistently dismissed this because they know for a fact it would be a worthless time/money sink for little profit. Yes I care about their profits as it directly affects my gameplay experience.
.
Most popular games are PVP games where people kill each other dozens and hundreds times for days and there is actual challenge at every step.
If you'll say that ESO overland is more like single-player experience, let's then take Witcher 3, in the beginning that archgryphon and ghost "bosses" in White Orchard require tactics and reaction to deal with them even in normal difficulty when you play first time... and this doesn't stopped W3 to be sold at 20M+ and be praised by everyone. In Skyrim until you min-max to certain level on normal difficulty you will be smashed by any giant/dragon priest/draugr lord if you don't use some kind of tactics... Aldmeri Ambassy is quite challenging and requires some brain activity.. even on the road to High Hrotgar you will meet white bear and snow troll which will torn your lvl5 char in parts if you just rush on them. 30M+ sales. From the recent - Divinity Original Sin 2 - this game simply brings your ass to you in each encounter, which doesn't prevented it to become very popular despite very specific non-casual gameplay.
95% of the best and most successful RPGs in the history will kill you within several seconds on normal difficulty if you will run forward spamming light attacks on enemy of comparable level. Of course there are exploits everywhere, but we are talking about new players. So your argument is wrong. Majority of players play game for gameplay and overcoming challenges game provides, and not to go around picking flowers and listening how somebody cursed some village and you need to close 4 portals to abort this..
First off, except for Skyrim, I've never heard of any of these games. I've been watching videos for the past three years about what the best games to play are currently and what will be coming out and I STILL have never heard of any of the games aside from Skyrim.
If they are/were so great, where are they? Why aren't they listed in Any top 25 MMOs to play?
You are throwing statements out as if they were fact, but no documentation whatsoever. Where are you coming up with these numbers? ESPECIALLY the percentage on the second bold line.
And then I see - You are NOT talking about MMOs. You are talking about RPGs. Games you buy and play by yourself.
And the third bold is completely wrong because No One, not you, not me, not anyone else here can definitively state WHY each and every person plays an MMO. There are so many different reason, THERE IS NO MAJORITY.
Archeage is a beautiful game that is horrendously broken and yet it still functions BECAUSE it has the unique feature that it caters to ALL walks. You want to PvP? You can spend either years grinding or thousands of dollars to get near to top of the gear gap (which was about 14k gear score when I finally quit). Or you can farm, do traderuns, build homes, decorate, make millions in gold and NEVER have to swing a weapon. Or you can go do quests and make gold farming critters. Or go out to the Ocean in your boat and search for treasure chests next to wrecks on the sea floor. Or you can just hang out with friends and do silly stuff like sail your boat on land.
People play games for MANY different reasons. There is NO Majority.
Divinity 2 and witcher 3 are 2 of the most well recieved and critically praised rpgs of the last decade you plebian.
Have never heard of either of those
Regardless, it doenst make my statement any less true and the point of those games being mentioned was already take out of context once in this thread.
The post that mentioned these 2 games were using them as a reference point for which to explain what exactly motivates a player in an rpg, challenge and progression vs pure story experience. These games were mentioned because they do not coddle the player and on their basic out of the box settings expext a degree of effort from players that play them. They are not mmos and adhere to entirely different design philosophies but were mentioned to point put that they were wildly successful in large part due to the elements i just mentioned.
The reply i made was directed to an individual that claimed those games were unknown to them, implying they were not noteworthy or relavant to sight as examples because they were not "successful" games in that persons mind which is pure abject nonsense.
I was with you until you mentioned that they don't coddle the player. Witcher 3 very much does coddle the player should they chose the setting meant for it. don't know about Divinity cause I'm not interested enough in it to add it to my backlog, so won't make claims there, but Witcher games litteraly, out of the box came with a setting that allowed you to finish the game with equivalent of light attack spamdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***4 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »navystylz_ESO wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »^ If that is all correct, I thank God that I avoided MMORPG genre for all my youth and that ESO has group content of good quality and amazing community so I can give up on unplayable (for me) overland without losing my characters.
That means you missed out on the Golden Age of MMORPG's.
I heard that games like Lineage 2 and WoW screwed so many lives, studies, careers, so I was sticking with single-player RPGs and multiplayer shooters for decade.. when ESO was released it was perceived in Skyrim's community as utter trash made not by Bethesda, so I avoided it too. Only "free week" and lack of decent new games lured me to ESO in 2018.. Bleakrock was so mind-dumbingly easy, crude and in-immersive that I was ready to quit, but arrival to Bal Foyen and actual big world sparked interest in me to visit all those places we read in TES books.
I played WoW and RIFT before ESO. I'm still playing Oblivion and Skyrim, as I really enjoy TES games (with mods of course in those to change things up).
I'm not really invested in MMOs - I started this one due to friends who play and posted screenies. Such a gorgeous world. It's fun, I love it. But should I live long enough for TES VI, it will be months or years even before I play ESO again, assuming it's still around....
Seems like a lot of the naysayers of difficulty aren't here for the MMO and only care about the progression of a TES story, so f-all to those who of us who want both...
Interesting to see what happens when all these people jump ship when Elder Scrolls 6 comes out and no one who wants the MMO experience is left because ZOS keeps pushing out nauseatingly easy graphic novel while charging premium prices.
That is the blunt truth right there but the angry mob of players that dont actually play the whole game are coming to burn your reply down lol. its a sad day when i enjoy tanking the forums then tanking in the actual game.
eh. not really. again i cannot speak for everyone, but for myself - there's group content and there's solo content. I want solo content to not require a group. ever. and overworld IMO? should be solo content.
MMO =/= must group for everything. its a world that you share with a whole lot of other players where you can chose to group, OR chose to lone wolf.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***4 -
Massacre_Wurm✭✭✭✭✭navystylz_ESO wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »Right , lets buff overland content and make old zones unplayable. I had to w8 almost an hour untill i find 2 other people for WB daily quest in Morrowind today.
Why do people keep talking about World Bosses? Holy heck the reading comprehension in these forums. I suggest some need stop playing this game and go take English lessons before anything.
Because world bosses are overland content ? Or you talking about buffing trash mobs to make travel from point A to point B as tedios as possible ? Korean MMO style , yes ?
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