Nightblade Dark Cloak changes

Insco851

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

So it went from 4.5% to 6%.. Are we supposed to be thankful??
A tank with 45k health casting live dark cloak. 32% of 45k = 14400 healing. 14400/3 seconds = 4800 health per second.
First round of pts changes made it 4.5%..
So 45k hp * 0.045 = 2025 health per second.
With this new slight buff its now 6% per second.
So 45k hp * 0.06 = 2700 health per second.
But its still way weaker than it was originally. And even originally it was weaker than dk self heal, sorc self heal, warden self heal, and even templar self heal.
I don't think the devs understand that tanks need immediate healing for high incoming burst damage. Some examples are vHrc hm when warrior is channeling his heavy. A hot will help but wont save you from death if a healer is down or stoned.
Another example is in vCr as a portal tank you get leeching shadow on you and have to heal to heal yourself back up fast when you are about to get heavy attacked.
Guys this "buff" simply puts it on par with a tank using vigor as a self heal. My tank has like 1200-1800 weapon damage and resolving vigor still heals for more than this new dark cloak change. The question is why bother slotting dark cloak at all???

Unfortunately for both sides, pve and pvp- we each got a nerf because of heavy armor 30k health bleedblades.

For pvp, that 1.5% is pretty significant considering it brings this heal into useful territory.

Iskiab

Nm

umagon

The devs can’t make the skill just give one large heal because the devs do not want to use cooldowns. And tankblades using the skill will normally not have very large resource pools because the heal increases with larger health pools. So, if it was a skill where the nightblade would get for example 32% of their health instantly players could run a high mag regeneration build and use the skill frequently. So, the devs cant raise the cost because of the function and they don’t want to add cooldowns.

Which means tankblades end up stuck with something that’s better than nothing but not really all that good. My suggestion would be to remove the minor protection because the minor/major system is not flexible when needing to adjust the numerical granularity of the skill systems. And replace the minor protection on the skill with a flat damage reduction percent value that is not affected by current damage mitigation diminishing returns.

This would allow tankblades to boost their damage mitigation to respond both preemptively and reactively to large burst damage. While not needing to adjust the cost or adding cooldowns. And allowing time for the healing to be effective. If necessary, the devs could also add a modifier that reduces damage done by the nightblade while the damage mitigation portion of the buff is active. If their intent is that dark cloak is meant for tankblades. It would keep the skill useful for tankblades but limit the use for dps nightblades both stam and mag variants.

Insco851

umagon wrote: »

The devs can’t make the skill just give one large heal because the devs do not want to use cooldowns. And tankblades using the skill will normally not have very large resource pools because the heal increases with larger health pools. So, if it was a skill where the nightblade would get for example 32% of their health instantly players could run a high mag regeneration build and use the skill frequently. So, the devs cant raise the cost because of the function and they don’t want to add cooldowns.

Which means tankblades end up stuck with something that’s better than nothing but not really all that good. My suggestion would be to remove the minor protection because the minor/major system is not flexible when needing to adjust the numerical granularity of the skill systems. And replace the minor protection on the skill with a flat damage reduction percent value that is not affected by current damage mitigation diminishing returns.

This would allow tankblades to boost their damage mitigation to respond both preemptively and reactively to large burst damage. While not needing to adjust the cost or adding cooldowns. And allowing time for the healing to be effective. If necessary, the devs could also add a modifier that reduces damage done by the nightblade while the damage mitigation portion of the buff is active. If their intent is that dark cloak is meant for tankblades. It would keep the skill useful for tankblades but limit the use for dps nightblades both stam and mag variants.

MOOOOOAR MITIGATION!!!!

...
Nah.

efster

I can work with 6% but I still think it should be a higher HPS. The problem with running a high health build is that some content actually punishes you for having high health -- maintanking Z'Maja for example, you want to have as little health as you can possibly get away with because the less health you have, the easier it is to handle Baneful Mark which is an unavoidable (for the MT) execute mechanic. But you can't maintank Z'Maja without some way to heal yourself up quickly -- NBs who want to maintank will basically have to dedicate an entire bar to heals, because while a healer can carry a tank upstairs, the portal is a different story. You can't dodge Nocturnal's Favour, and mitigating it with Absorb Magicka is impossible when there are 3 orbs exposed and they're all pelting you with purple garbage. Granted, that doesn't happen that often (and doesn't last long) but you have to be prepared for it, and a NB without a bursty self-heal like Live cloak + path (and Earthgore...) simply isn't.

If Absorb Magic were changed to absorb up to X damage from however many projectiles instead of expiring as soon as it's hit whether the hit is 3K or 21K, that would make a self-heal unnecessary as long as you can manage your stamina, but now I'm just dreaming. If only there were a way to make a skill work one way in PVP and another in PVE....

jypcy

efster wrote: »

I can work with 6% but I still think it should be a higher HPS. The problem with running a high health build is that some content actually punishes you for having high health -- maintanking Z'Maja for example, you want to have as little health as you can possibly get away with because the less health you have, the easier it is to handle Baneful Mark which is an unavoidable (for the MT) execute mechanic. But you can't maintank Z'Maja without some way to heal yourself up quickly -- NBs who want to maintank will basically have to dedicate an entire bar to heals, because while a healer can carry a tank upstairs, the portal is a different story. You can't dodge Nocturnal's Favour, and mitigating it with Absorb Magicka is impossible when there are 3 orbs exposed and they're all pelting you with purple garbage. Granted, that doesn't happen that often (and doesn't last long) but you have to be prepared for it, and a NB without a bursty self-heal like Live cloak + path (and Earthgore...) simply isn't.

If Absorb Magic were changed to absorb up to X damage from however many projectiles instead of expiring as soon as it's hit whether the hit is 3K or 21K, that would make a self-heal unnecessary as long as you can manage your stamina, but now I'm just dreaming. If only there were a way to make a skill work one way in PVP and another in PVE....

On live that part’s fine for me with just absorb magicka, cloak, and leeching strikes. I’m not even sure the cloak potency nerf warrants swapping out sets/skills, but adding path and/or earthgore seems like it would be enough to balance the nerf if necessary. Plus if the group comp does switch to healers running crusher, you could probably get away with a stronger weakening enchant or 2h absorb health.

Re: baneful, every group I’ve run with just swaps tanks when that goes out, at which point you can hop in with the group and get heals from both healers. But I think we’re in agreement anyway that with healers that shouldn’t really be a concern haha

Lab3360

Throw in major Vitality, then you have a winner

Insco851

Lab3360 wrote: »

Throw in major Vitality, then you have a winner

BRR back bar or MV lingering pots.

cpuScientist

Just leave it as it was on live, heck base it off mag if you dont want stamBlades to use it. The problem with magBlade is self healing, and they kill the only heal? Everyone just go be a roach in stealth and have no heal.

or put the motherloving heal back on healing HEALING H E A L I N G WARD

Insco851

cpuScientist wrote: »

Just leave it as it was on live, heck base it off mag if you dont want stamBlades to use it. The problem with magBlade is self healing, and they kill the only heal? Everyone just go be a roach in stealth and have no heal.

or put the motherloving heal back on healing HEALING H E A L I N G WARD

bUt ItS a TaNkInG sKiLl

Colecovision

It's 48% max health regen over 8 seconds and it comes with damage reduction and it procs the shadow passive for the majors, right? I like it!

code65536

It didn't need to be buffed to 6%. What it needs is an initial burst.

15% on the first tick. Then small 3.5% ticks afterwards. That's really the only change that needs to be made for this skill to be useful for PvE tanking.

I have no idea why it's taking ZOS so bloody long to come to this kind of solution.

Iron_Blurr

Lab3360 wrote: »

Throw in major Vitality, then you have a winner

I would say throw in major mending since you can get vitality from pots, nb soul siphon ult and other sources but mending is hard to come by.

Iron_Blurr

They could give dark cloak major mending for 3 seconds while active. So only the first 3 ticks of healing would be buffed but it would mean if you want to spam the heal every 3 seconds, you can it's just not efficient. That would be a way to kind of front load the heal.
Also, the reason i am suggesting major mending not major vitality is because mending only buffs your own heals which is slightly more balanced than giving it major vitality which buffs the heals you get from all sources which i could see being cancer in pvp.
This would give dark cloak the same effect as igneous shield on a dk for perspective. So before you say its op consider the fact that dk has had it forever and it comes attached with a strong damage shield for 6 people as well.

jypcy

code65536 wrote: »

It didn't need to be buffed to 6%. What it needs is an initial burst.

15% on the first tick. Then small 3.5% ticks afterwards. That's really the only change that needs to be made for this skill to be useful for PvE tanking.

I have no idea why it's taking ZOS so bloody long to come to this kind of solution.

I already think it’s somewhat overpowered on live from a pve tanking perspective. I can only imagine what it’s like in PvP, which I’m assuming is the more likely catalyst for its rework. Obviously I don’t have their data to pore over to figure out exactly how warranted a change is, but I wasn’t surprised when ZOS nerfed its burst healing in 5.0.0. I really think it’s unlikely their solution to whatever problem they saw with it would be to frontload it more than it was previously, either through a stronger initial percent or major mend/vit as others are suggesting.

Colecovision

code65536 wrote: »

It didn't need to be buffed to 6%. What it needs is an initial burst.

15% on the first tick. Then small 3.5% ticks afterwards. That's really the only change that needs to be made for this skill to be useful for PvE tanking.

I have no idea why it's taking ZOS so bloody long to come to this kind of solution.

Who needs that over this? Hard mode trials nightblade tanks? How big a group is that and is there no other way to adapt? Vet dungeon tanks should be fine with the changes. I really like what they've done and damage not taken doesn't need to be healed. We can back bar grim and just leave it now. I've never felt this tanky.

Iron_Blurr

Im still hoping they increase the healing from dark cloak or give it some kind of passive that makes heals stronger. 6% of your max health per second isnt much. I think a good level would be somewhere around 8% of max health per second. With 45k hp 8% healing per second would be 3600. That brings it into the realm of useful healing for a pve endgame tank player.
Now let's look at this from a dps perspective. Lets say you have 20k hp. 8% of that per second is 1600 health per second. In pvp that healing is cut in half and can be affected by things like defile etc.
I think the way to balance this skill is to make it comparable to other class self heals.

Insco851

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

Im still hoping they increase the healing from dark cloak or give it some kind of passive that makes heals stronger. 6% of your max health per second isnt much. I think a good level would be somewhere around 8% of max health per second. With 45k hp 8% healing per second would be 3600. That brings it into the realm of useful healing for a pve endgame tank player.
Now let's look at this from a dps perspective. Lets say you have 20k hp. 8% of that per second is 1600 health per second. In pvp that healing is cut in half and can be affected by things like defile etc.
I think the way to balance this skill is to make it comparable to other class self heals.

20k in pvp? Even with blue food I have more health than that. 6% is solid. Don’t get it indirectly nerfed plz.

Iron_Blurr

How could it even get worse? It's going from restoring 32% max hp over 3 seconds to restoring 18% over 3 seconds. Sounds like a huge nerf to me. The 4.5% they originally changed it to would only be 13.5% max health over a period of 3 seconds.
If it gets increased to 8% per second that mean over 3 seconds it will restore 24% of your max health. Still a nerf compared go where it was on live but at least it's somewhat useful then.

Iron_Blurr

At a rate of 6% per second it takes 16 seconds to heal to full at base values. If people think this is ok for a tank they are drunk. 16 whole seconds for a heal to fill you up? A dk can achieve that in like 2-3 seconds. Sorc in 2-3. Warden in 4-5 seconds. Necro in 4 seconds.

jypcy

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

How could it even get worse? It's going from restoring 32% max hp over 3 seconds to restoring 18% over 3 seconds. Sounds like a huge nerf to me. The 4.5% they originally changed it to would only be 13.5% max health over a period of 3 seconds.
If it gets increased to 8% per second that mean over 3 seconds it will restore 24% of your max health. Still a nerf compared go where it was on live but at least it's somewhat useful then.

But as far as I know it will be 24% over 3 seconds.

On live it’s 8% per tick, given my 22070 health nb with no items equipped, no passives to boost healing done, and no cp heals for 1765 per tick for 4 ticks over 3 seconds, both with and without points in Dark Veil. If you think I missed something let me know and I can test again, but I’m pretty sure I covered the bases.

ApostateHobo

Man when zos wants to kill a skill they really KILL it

Iskiab

Don’t use it reactively. It’ll be fine if you have it as an always rolling heal with minor protection.

Insco851

Iskiab wrote: »

Don’t use it reactively. It’ll be fine if you have it as an always rolling heal with minor protection.

Yea even DC in its current state isn’t a great reactive heal (unless it crits). More like a defensive buff before you go for a combo imo.

Iskiab

Insco851 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Don’t use it reactively. It’ll be fine if you have it as an always rolling heal with minor protection.

Yea even DC in its current state isn’t a great reactive heal (unless it crits). More like a defensive buff before you go for a combo imo.

Yea, I think the main thing is to play a NB tank like a NB tank, not a gimped DK. Buff your health and play to the class’ strengths. Something like plague doctor plus ebon would be a good combo.