Nightblade Dark Cloak changes

Iron_Blurr

I am a nightblade pve tank main. Dark cloak is the only reliable heal that a nightblade tank can use. As a tank when you are taking a lot of incoming damage you need a burst heal not a heal over time. I would rather see the minor protection removed from dark cloak completely but have an instant heal dark cloak with a heal over time attached to it. I dont mind the amount of total healing i just dont want it spread out across 8 seconds when I need a burst heal NOW.
Dragonknights have green dragon blood and coagulating blood for burst heals.
Sorcs have the clanfear which heals for a huge amount of max health upon instant cast.
Templars have tons of burst heals that are instant cast.
Wardens have arctic wind which has a burst heal with a heal over time attached to it.
Necromancers have their scythe ability which heals instantly for a percentage of max health.
Why cant nightblades have a burst heal too?
I wish it was something like heals for 36% of your max health instantly. Or even something like heal for 15% of your max health instantly and 15% of your max health over 3 seconds.

The minor protection is not why this skill is used. It is used for the healing. Nerfing the reliability of the healing will make it pointless.
If you want minor protection on a tank you can use circle of protection(fighters guild) or slot temporal guard(psijic ult morph).
I went on pts today and my dark cloak tooltip was like 2k healing per second for 8 seconds. That was with my standard pve vet trials tank setup.
4.5% max health healing per second when you have about 40k health is only 1800 health per second.. What are nightblade tanks supposed to use now??

Rex-Umbra

Should be as strong as coagulating blood because right now its junk in comparison.

MartiniDaniels

Well, for NB pve tanks it's must have to have infused potion speed jewelry and rely on pots for burst heal. You need this jewelry to utilize ulti-gen to the max anyway if your guild allows NBs to trials etc.. and in dungeons you may just use set like Cyrodiil's crest.

LinearParadox

Yeah I've gotta say that, even as someone who agrees with most of the NB changes and nerfs in the patch notes, I read the chafe for that skill and kinda cringed a bit.
I have a NB, I've played it Mag and Stam, gnaker and fighter, mostly PvP but a bit of PvE as well... And though I only ever messed around with Dark Cloak a bit and don't use it, I have to say that these changes are most certainly a nerf.
And it was already kinda weak imo.
As others have said, Minor Protection is not a hard to get buff, and the increased uptime on it doesn't balance out stripping away the closest thing NB tanks had to a burst heal.

code65536

Nightblade tanks already have access to multiple HoTs. They can place Refreshing under their feet. They can get a little from a cast of Swallow. If they are in a window of opportunity where they don't have to block and can weave abilities, they can get some from Siphoning/Leeching Strikes.

And while HoTs are useful for PvE tanking, what tanks need just as much are burst heals. Let's say you're in the Shadow Realm in Cloudrest. There's no healer down there. You're taking a DoT that can tick for at least 5K per second, sometimes reaching as high as 9K per second. And sometimes the only way to survive down there is to cast multiple burst heals in quick succession.

Current: 32% over 3s. (~11%, ~11%, ~11%)
PTS: 36% over 8s. (4.5%, 4.5%, ...)

Suggestion: 20% over 2s then 15% over 6s. (10%, 10%, 2.5%, 2.5% ...)

This would preserve some of the front-loading that's useful for tanking while also preserving the new HoT behavior that's more useful in general.

Jeezye

The skill is increadibly weak, running dark cloak on live is a hustle already and my pvp experience on PTS just shows that its ~half the healing of mutagen, which effects your allies as well and has a burst heal attached...

I'd actually go as far as to say you could stack the live version with the PTS version and it still wouldnt be op. something like 30% over 3 seconds and another 20% until 8 seconds...

ccfeeling

code65536 wrote: »

Nightblade tanks already have access to multiple HoTs. They can place Refreshing under their feet. They can get a little from a cast of Swallow. If they are in a window of opportunity where they don't have to block and can weave abilities, they can get some from Siphoning/Leeching Strikes.

And while HoTs are useful for PvE tanking, what tanks need just as much are burst heals. Let's say you're in the Shadow Realm in Cloudrest. There's no healer down there. You're taking a DoT that can tick for at least 5K per second, sometimes reaching as high as 9K per second. And sometimes the only way to survive down there is to cast multiple burst heals in quick succession.

Current: 32% over 3s. (~11%, ~11%, ~11%)
PTS: 36% over 8s. (4.5%, 4.5%, ...)

Suggestion: 20% over 2s then 15% over 6s. (10%, 10%, 2.5%, 2.5% ...)

This would preserve some of the front-loading that's useful for tanking while also preserving the new HoT behavior that's more useful in general.

Big hits won't give u time.

If HOT is useful in hard contents , no NB tanks complain.

actosh

Just tested it, and as i expectet its ***.

Test we´re done with same gear, same cp, same race, same everything.

Live Server





PTS





Values with 35949HP

Live Dark Cloak non Crit: 3618
Live Dark Cloak Critical Hit: 6331

Live Leeching Strikes Heal: 1869
Live Leeching Strikes Heal Crit: 3270

PTS Dark Cloak non Crit: 2131
PTS Dark Cloak Critical Hit: 3729

PTS Leeching Strikes Heal: 1852
PTS Leeching Strikes Heal Crit: 3241

@ZOS_BrianWheeler : I get it, may overperformed in pvp, but find another solution.
The Minor Protection is useless, easy to get elsewhere and simply not needed.
Replace it with something usefull, and just let the heal like it is on live, and half it in pvp to prevent HA Bleedblades Heling, thx.

U overnerfed Dark Cloak, a Light attack with Leechign active provides almost equal Healing for 0 Cost.
Pls dont go ahead and do the zos balancing style by nerfing Leeching/Siphoning.

Dark Cloak was a awesome hybrid between burst/hot and it was rly good, not op or something, just good and nice balanced.

Have a nice day.

O-Los_Zulis

I'm not too sure why this skill was changed; it really wasn't OP. I just don't get it.

mcagatayg

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Should be as strong as coagulating blood because right now its junk in comparison.

GOOD ONE LOL

Silver_Strider

1) Move the Minor Protection from Dark Cloak to Refreshing Path so that NB can be more reliably Tanky without being a huge change to their overall toolkit.

2) If Dark Cloak MUST be nerfed, have it heal for 8% over 4 seconds instead of 4.5% over 8 seconds. This puts the heal back to 32% and is still bursty enough for NB tanks to use but not so much for PvP NB, especially with the loss of Minor Protection on top.

3) Remove Major Berserk from Reaper's Mark and place the Minor Vulnerability from Teleport Strike there instead. They want NB to use Mark, then make it actually worth using and in terms of PvP balance, at least there's counterplay to being Marked vs getting Ambushed immediately from Stealth with Camo Hunter equip and just melting to a Minor Berserk+Minor Vuln Dawnbreaker to the face.

Anyone that disagrees, FIGHT ME!!!

BlackMadara

It definitely should not heal for 36% max hp instantly. I do like your second suggestion, 15% instant and 15% over 3 seconds, or just keep it as is. This is a very unwarranted nerf. If they want to keep an 8s duration for protection, give a more front loaded heal then a weaker heal over time.

actosh

Silver_Strider wrote: »

1) Move the Minor Protection from Dark Cloak to Refreshing Path so that NB can be more reliably Tanky without being a huge change to their overall toolkit.

2) If Dark Cloak MUST be nerfed, have it heal for 8% over 4 seconds instead of 4.5% over 8 seconds. This puts the heal back to 32% and is still bursty enough for NB tanks to use but not so much for PvP NB, especially with the loss of Minor Protection on top.

3) Remove Major Berserk from Reaper's Mark and place the Minor Vulnerability from Teleport Strike there instead. They want NB to use Mark, then make it actually worth using and in terms of PvP balance, at least there's counterplay to being Marked vs getting Ambushed immediately from Stealth with Camo Hunter equip and just melting to a Minor Berserk+Minor Vuln Dawnbreaker to the face.

Anyone that disagrees, FIGHT ME!!!

Would support that. Right now u r going for spambush complains.
Make mark target usefull!!!!.
Change cloak to what it was or let it tick 4 secs.

efster

Pre cloak heal, NB couldn't be reliable and more often than not needed a healer on vet Ozara and Serpent backroom, even in turtle mode, so a NB had to be put on the main boss. With cloak as it is now combined with the shield ulti and Meditate, I can solo Ozara backroom ez, and Serpent backroom as well without my health bar so much as twitching until I have two Mantis. Cloak combined with Absorb Magicka and Bone Shield is enough to keep me topped up n vCR portals.

This one skill made a tremendous difference in NB tank QoL.

I am speaking from experience tanking veteran trials on my NB for several years.

This change is terrible, and the decision that NBs don't need a "bursty" heal in any situation is short-sighted.

If it's just Cloak that shouldn't be ~bursty~, why not change Shrewd Offering to grant a burst heal in exchange for major defile for 3 seconds following the heal?

Iron_Blurr

I just dont understand why they didnt turn refreshing path into this new 8 second hot and leave dark cloak alone. At least then nightblade tanks could choose if they want a burst heal or HoT.
Seriously the gap between dk tanks and nightblade tanks should not be this wide. Why does dk get major mending on top of a damage shield for themselves and the group and also get a huge burst heal with minor vitality built into it???
Meanwhile nightblade gets like 4-5% of their max health per second. Maybe give nightblades major mending for the duration of dark cloak and minor vitality like dk gets. Even then it wouldn't be a burst heal but at least it would tick for a bit over 3k health per second.
They should just remove the minor protection completely and buff the healing.
Or maybe keep it at 4.5% max health but make it tick every 0.5 seconds like the sorc healing negate.
Maybe they could give remove the minor protection but make it heal for 15% of max hp instantly and another 15% over 3 seconds and give them major mending while the heal is active.
There are so many ways they could change the skill without taking a sledgehammer to nightblade tanks.

Iron_Blurr

One thing i would really like to know is who on earth was complaining that dark cloak was OP?? It's one of the weakest and most expensive self heals in the game. Even freaking vampire drain is better since it heals for 25% of missing health each second for 3 seconds. That's not even including the 5 ult per second that vampire drain gives! If i could cast drain while blocking i would just use that instead of dark cloak.
Unfortunately meditate and vampire drain are both channels meaning you can't block while using them so you take 50% more damage from not blocking just to heal.

Iskiab

Yea, dark cloak is terrible as is. Maybe like others have said an instant burst heal and the trailing hot.

Dark cloak OP in pvp said no one ever.

KatySpirit

Totally agree. There is absolutely no justification for NB not to have a burst heal when other classes do. Cloak isn't as strong as DK's self heal, but it really made NB tanking a lot more viable. Nerfing it is a poor decision and seems to be going back to the class limits I thought you were trying to move away from.

ccfeeling

Let it be.

My sub is just expired, i find no reason to resume.

Zos, u win

labambao

Imagine having 30k being heavy nightblade with battle spirit. 700 hps without defile on you.

Iron_Blurr

It's such a dead skill now.
4.5% of max health per second is a joke. I mean lets say you have 70k health(ridiculous number) that barely gets you to just over 3k heal ticks per second..
Most tank builds fall somewhere between 30-40k health. At 30k it heals 1300 health/second.
At 40k it heals about 1800 health/second.
This makes it one of the weakest heals in the game.

actosh

Yep, at this state it makes way more sense to use a Lingering Health Potion with Major Vit coupled with Potion Cooldown Glyphs (getting around the same Heals per sec (at least for 15secs) and u drop of cloak and siphoning from your bar and just use meditate.

Need to get on pts again, and test new builds, cause we all know, it will go live almost like this.

I wish Zos would have taken the real approach and structured classes like Warden/Necromancer and while doing that taking a look at the distribution of minor/major buffs and their availability.

artal

I don't hate to much on other nb changes, still think magblade need bit love but this change is absolute no no.
I played magblade with 25k health in bgs using this skill and if i remember correctly I was getting bit over 1k tick heal. Using other morph of cloak was already better but its fun to play bit differently and this was option to use. If this change goes through they can delete the skill as far as I'm concerned.
I guess pve tanks will still be forced to use it but with much less usefulness

actosh

Wont usw it as a trials Tank If it goes live .

Strider__Roshin

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Should be as strong as coagulating blood because right now its junk in comparison.

Honestly it's pretty hypocritical of ZOS to nerf Dark Cloak's heal; stating it was too strong and then immediately buff Coagulating Blood; a superior heal in the same patch.

efster

actosh wrote: »

Wont usw it as a trials Tank If it goes live .

Me neither. It's not worth the bar space as it is on the PTS.

Lord_Eomer

Daus wrote: »

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Should be as strong as coagulating blood because right now its junk in comparison.

Honestly it's pretty hypocritical of ZOS to nerf Dark Cloak's heal; stating it was too strong and then immediately buff aCoagulating Blood; superior heal in the same patch.

Coagulating Blood was not really a super heal, with this patch it will be very useful skill to slot. This change was needed.

But ZOS should have not nerf Dark Cloak, this skill will simply becomes less efficient and hardly any tank will use.

With removal of Minor Berserk, this is good trade off to increase Dark Cloak duration and keep healing as is.

jypcy

code65536 wrote: »

Nightblade tanks already have access to multiple HoTs. They can place Refreshing under their feet. They can get a little from a cast of Swallow. If they are in a window of opportunity where they don't have to block and can weave abilities, they can get some from Siphoning/Leeching Strikes.

And while HoTs are useful for PvE tanking, what tanks need just as much are burst heals. Let's say you're in the Shadow Realm in Cloudrest. There's no healer down there. You're taking a DoT that can tick for at least 5K per second, sometimes reaching as high as 9K per second. And sometimes the only way to survive down there is to cast multiple burst heals in quick succession.

Current: 32% over 3s. (~11%, ~11%, ~11%)
PTS: 36% over 8s. (4.5%, 4.5%, ...)

Suggestion: 20% over 2s then 15% over 6s. (10%, 10%, 2.5%, 2.5% ...)

This would preserve some of the front-loading that's useful for tanking while also preserving the new HoT behavior that's more useful in general.

Also worth noting that even if tankblades could survive fine in most scenarios by stacking hots, it doesn’t seem balanced that this class is required to dedicate numerous bar slots to it while other classes only need one or two for sufficient self-heals.

Every class has one on demand health-based survival ability which fits naturally with a healthy tank build, so I think it’s good to compare those when talking about balance instead of, for example, BoL, which requires your tank to have high magicka/spell damage to be effective. The effects are based on next patch’s notes:
DK: Green dragon blood: 33% missing health instantly, Major endurance, Major fortitude, minor vitality for 20 seconds.
Sorc: Unstable clannfear: 35% max health instantly, npc companion for as long as it remains on your bar.
Templar: Radiant ward: damage shield of 30% max health plus 9% per nearby enemy instantly, AoE damage.
Nightblade: Dark cloak: 36% max health over 8 seconds, minor protection for the duration.
Warden: Polar wind: 15% max health instantly plus 15% over 10 seconds, heal party member for initial heal as well.
Necromancer: Hungry scythe: 15% max health plus % per nearby enemy instantly, plus 10% over 5 seconds, conal damage.

This leaves NBs as the only class without an on demand survival tool that can be used to mitigate or recuperate damage in a short period, and even comparing all of the skills themselves, dark cloak doesn’t seem drastically better such that it needs to be drawn out more. I’d honestly be ok if they kept the heal as is but removed minor protection if that’s what it takes to balance it, even though that would seemingly make it the worst of the bunch.

Alternatively, I wonder if allowing each cast’s hot to stack would be a good solution. That would still remove its burst healing capabilities because you’d need to spend several gcds to make the heal potent. The heal would be incredibly potent if you do stack it a bunch, meaning it could still be effective for pve tanks where we can generally predict high damage phases, but for pvpers and pve dps that need to focus on things other than healing, I’m assuming it wouldn’t be effective to spend several gcds building stacks.

(Edit to make the list easier to read. Also, the numbers are mostly from memory, so please do correct me if they’re inaccurate)

Iskiab

Yea, looking at other classes changing dark cloak to a 33% instant would be standardizing it with other classes.

Since all the classes have standardized tooltip amounts, etc.. and comparable damage there’s no reason for such as large imbalance.

prototypefb

this skill should give initial heal based on your lowest stat + current dot to help alleviate problems of it's current state, making it interesting to tanks/hybrids

Baraber

I really don't understand why some of the commenters here ask ZOS to nerf it less like spreading the heal over 4s instead of 3.5, give it a 15% burst or whatnot, if anything this ability needs a BUFF. We were fine with the ability as it was, it wasn't the best but it worked. Right now on the PTS it's useless.
Take off the minor protection completely for all we care, but turning this useful ability into a weak hot is simply a death sentence for both this morph and nightblade tanking (nightblade brawling too).