Encounter Logging

idk

DyingIsEasy wrote: »

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idk wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Zos could have put the true opt out in game so that it permitted the buff info to pass through but nothing else. Instead Zos chose to leave that to a third party that can change hands and how they do things.

I really do not understand why so many are defending Zos' laziness in this matter. t would not hurt use of the tool in any manner as it would not hinder core progression teams from using this tool to it's fullest extent.

Because once you exclude that level of information, the data becomes meaningless. The "opt-out" that I'm talking about is simply redacting the name. So that you appear as "anonymous". What you want is impossible. It's not laziness. It's simple nonsensical impossibility. "Hey, the dungeon boss's health went from 50% to 25% in the span of a minute, which means the total group DPS is 60K, and if Alice there did 40K, then we can guess what Bob did." You can never get rid of that. You will never be able to get rid of it, unless you lobotomize so much data that the data becomes meaningless.

The anonymization that we are talking about is in the game itself, as I understand it. If someone chooses to be anonymous in the log (which I would argue should be the default), then the logs produced by anyone would not have their name.

"But what about extrapolating who they are based on who isn't anonymized?" As I said, you can't get rid of that. You call it laziness, but I call it common sense that it's an a priori impossibility. But, more importantly, this sort of extrapolative identification is already possible. In a dungeon, if a DD takes a screenshot with their CMX status panel saying that they are doing 60% of the group DPS, we already know that the other person is doing at most 40%. In a trial, if 7 DDs share their DPS and the 8th doesn't, people who care enough can do the math and determine what that 8th did. If only 6 DDs share, you can't determine what the last two did individually, just as here, if just two people choose to be anonymous, that extrapolative identification breaks down. How is that any different? How is any of this any worse than the example that I had given earlier of the screenshot?

(Aside: What is with this obsession with DPS? Honestly, when I first heard about this, my first thought was "new tool to figure out how mechanics work and why we wiped!" Measuring DPS didn't even cross my mind until the uproar in this thread over what are, frankly, speculative threats.)

My guess is you do some serious raiding based on many of your posts in these forums. I think you can pretty much surmise that serious raid groups would require players be opted in to raid with them which means your point that the data would become meaningless for those groups does not hold up to the smell test.

What I want is not impossible. @Kihra states on the second page that we can fully opt out at the website and all information except buffs will not be seen. If it can be done at the website the opt out in game can handle it as well. It is just categorizing the data in the database appropriately. I am not saying that is simple coding, but in reality it could be as easy as adding a new field and coding buffs as 1 and damage as 0.

I am also fully aware of what combat metrics can do as everyone who does any bit of serious raiding uses it. We are not talking about CMX in this thread, there are groups beyond 4 man and CMX seems to be used in this topic as a distraction.

In the end, I respect you. Have seen some great thoughts posted by you in the forums and know you make some great addons for raiding. I just think there is a better way that the opt out can be done and I guess you are just more concerned it could harm this new tool.

@idk

CMX is not used as a distraction. The point is that you could implement the same website using just CMX. This has the added benefit that only one person needs to upload the data.

So i guess the question is: Why do you think this is such a big deal but not CMX?

That is not the point people have been making. Look at what I quoted. It as in a 4 man group if CMX tells me I am going 60% of the damage then it is easy for me to see what the other dps is doing.

And yes, it is a distraction as we are talking about this new tool. Not CMX.

Nifty2g

code65536 wrote: »

I'm just confused by why people are upset with this. It looks like it will be a great tool, and I am honestly having a hard time envisioning the kinds of abuse that people are afraid of. Which, again, is why I am bringing up CMX--not as a distraction, but as a point of comparison to what is already possible in terms of toxic usage.

The vast majority of users will set themselves as anonymous and be done with it and never think about it again. I also truly don't understand what some people are freaking out over. Tracking websites are in almost every online game. I'm starting to believe that ZOS has babysitted the players too much and they've gotten used to it.

Here is hoping that this tool is here to stay, I hope they don't get rid of it.

idk

Nifty2g wrote: »

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code65536 wrote: »

I'm just confused by why people are upset with this. It looks like it will be a great tool, and I am honestly having a hard time envisioning the kinds of abuse that people are afraid of. Which, again, is why I am bringing up CMX--not as a distraction, but as a point of comparison to what is already possible in terms of toxic usage.

The vast majority of users will set themselves as anonymous and be done with it and never think about it again. I also truly don't understand what some people are freaking out over. Tracking websites are in almost every online game. I'm starting to believe that ZOS has babysitted the players too much and they've gotten used to it.

Here is hoping that this tool is here to stay, I hope they don't get rid of it.

In game opt out is not truly anonymous and I expect you see that. Even Kihra stated to be truly we would have to email them or create an account on the website to be truly anonymous. Lets make sure we use accurate information.

I do not want to see the tool go. I just want it done the right way and not rely on third parties for being anonymous.

DyingIsEasy

idk wrote: »

show previous quotes

DyingIsEasy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Zos could have put the true opt out in game so that it permitted the buff info to pass through but nothing else. Instead Zos chose to leave that to a third party that can change hands and how they do things.

I really do not understand why so many are defending Zos' laziness in this matter. t would not hurt use of the tool in any manner as it would not hinder core progression teams from using this tool to it's fullest extent.

Because once you exclude that level of information, the data becomes meaningless. The "opt-out" that I'm talking about is simply redacting the name. So that you appear as "anonymous". What you want is impossible. It's not laziness. It's simple nonsensical impossibility. "Hey, the dungeon boss's health went from 50% to 25% in the span of a minute, which means the total group DPS is 60K, and if Alice there did 40K, then we can guess what Bob did." You can never get rid of that. You will never be able to get rid of it, unless you lobotomize so much data that the data becomes meaningless.

The anonymization that we are talking about is in the game itself, as I understand it. If someone chooses to be anonymous in the log (which I would argue should be the default), then the logs produced by anyone would not have their name.

"But what about extrapolating who they are based on who isn't anonymized?" As I said, you can't get rid of that. You call it laziness, but I call it common sense that it's an a priori impossibility. But, more importantly, this sort of extrapolative identification is already possible. In a dungeon, if a DD takes a screenshot with their CMX status panel saying that they are doing 60% of the group DPS, we already know that the other person is doing at most 40%. In a trial, if 7 DDs share their DPS and the 8th doesn't, people who care enough can do the math and determine what that 8th did. If only 6 DDs share, you can't determine what the last two did individually, just as here, if just two people choose to be anonymous, that extrapolative identification breaks down. How is that any different? How is any of this any worse than the example that I had given earlier of the screenshot?

(Aside: What is with this obsession with DPS? Honestly, when I first heard about this, my first thought was "new tool to figure out how mechanics work and why we wiped!" Measuring DPS didn't even cross my mind until the uproar in this thread over what are, frankly, speculative threats.)

My guess is you do some serious raiding based on many of your posts in these forums. I think you can pretty much surmise that serious raid groups would require players be opted in to raid with them which means your point that the data would become meaningless for those groups does not hold up to the smell test.

What I want is not impossible. @Kihra states on the second page that we can fully opt out at the website and all information except buffs will not be seen. If it can be done at the website the opt out in game can handle it as well. It is just categorizing the data in the database appropriately. I am not saying that is simple coding, but in reality it could be as easy as adding a new field and coding buffs as 1 and damage as 0.

I am also fully aware of what combat metrics can do as everyone who does any bit of serious raiding uses it. We are not talking about CMX in this thread, there are groups beyond 4 man and CMX seems to be used in this topic as a distraction.

In the end, I respect you. Have seen some great thoughts posted by you in the forums and know you make some great addons for raiding. I just think there is a better way that the opt out can be done and I guess you are just more concerned it could harm this new tool.

@idk

CMX is not used as a distraction. The point is that you could implement the same website using just CMX. This has the added benefit that only one person needs to upload the data.

So i guess the question is: Why do you think this is such a big deal but not CMX?

That is not the point people have been making. Look at what I quoted. It as in a 4 man group if CMX tells me I am going 60% of the damage then it is easy for me to see what the other dps is doing.

And yes, it is a distraction as we are talking about this new tool. Not CMX.

I think you are misunderstanding what i am trying to say.
I am not talking about being able to roughly estimate the dps of the other damage dealer when you are doing 60%.

Let's say we are doing a 4man dungeon and one person (person A) is flagged as anonymous in the logs.
What i mean is that you get EXACTLY the same information by throwing together the CMX SavedVariables of players B,C and D.

So again, this tool does not change anything at all.

Destruent

idk wrote: »

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Nifty2g wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I'm just confused by why people are upset with this. It looks like it will be a great tool, and I am honestly having a hard time envisioning the kinds of abuse that people are afraid of. Which, again, is why I am bringing up CMX--not as a distraction, but as a point of comparison to what is already possible in terms of toxic usage.

The vast majority of users will set themselves as anonymous and be done with it and never think about it again. I also truly don't understand what some people are freaking out over. Tracking websites are in almost every online game. I'm starting to believe that ZOS has babysitted the players too much and they've gotten used to it.

Here is hoping that this tool is here to stay, I hope they don't get rid of it.

In game opt out is not truly anonymous and I expect you see that. Even Kihra stated to be truly we would have to email them or create an account on the website to be truly anonymous. Lets make sure we use accurate information.

I do not want to see the tool go. I just want it done the right way and not rely on third parties for being anonymous.

I think you misunderstood her. If you choose to opt out ingame there's nothing to further hide on the website bc the transmitted data cannot be assigned to you.
But IF you forgot to opt out ingame, you'll need to message her, to delete your name from logs/rankings whatever.


I'm really looking forward to this.

VaranisArano

Nifty2g wrote: »

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code65536 wrote: »

I'm just confused by why people are upset with this. It looks like it will be a great tool, and I am honestly having a hard time envisioning the kinds of abuse that people are afraid of. Which, again, is why I am bringing up CMX--not as a distraction, but as a point of comparison to what is already possible in terms of toxic usage.

The vast majority of users will set themselves as anonymous and be done with it and never think about it again. I also truly don't understand what some people are freaking out over. Tracking websites are in almost every online game. I'm starting to believe that ZOS has babysitted the players too much and they've gotten used to it.

Here is hoping that this tool is here to stay, I hope they don't get rid of it.

My argument is even simpler. All users should be set to anonymous by default and be done with it, so they never have to think about it unless they want to use this tool.

It looks like an awesome tool for anyone who wants to use it in an organized group setting. It looks like an awesome tool for anyone who wants to use it, period.

But those players who don't want their character name attached to their parse info shouldn't have to jump through hoops to regain their privacy.

Bladerunner1

code65536 wrote: »

If anyone in the group has "Allow encounter logging" set to "Off", any attempt to turn on Encounter Logging by anyone will produce the error message, "Someone in your group has disallowed Encounter Logging", and then the logger could then request that group members turn it on.

I've been thinking more about this, it could still be awesome to see your own data spread out over time even if one or more in the group have their logging switched off. Would it be possible to show just your own DPS in detail and leave the rest lumped together as the remainder if at least one person wished to remain anonymous?

Splattercat_83

Universe wrote: »

This tool will only increase the already high elitism which exists in ESO.
I know you've worked hard on this tool and it is appreciated, but it will not be a good idea to implement it.

Should not worry about that. Groups that are struggling with dps, sustain, group comp such as buffs debuffs healing etc can use this to improve. Instead of worrying about them getting "exposed". This would help any group that is trying to improve. It will also help groups that are trying for scores learn what they can do to to shave off valuable seconds or cease avoidable deaths.

Now if people are performing less than desired and not putting in the effort to improve then they might need to worry. Those people shouldn't worry about end game content past the normal level.

Nifty2g

idk wrote: »

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Nifty2g wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I'm just confused by why people are upset with this. It looks like it will be a great tool, and I am honestly having a hard time envisioning the kinds of abuse that people are afraid of. Which, again, is why I am bringing up CMX--not as a distraction, but as a point of comparison to what is already possible in terms of toxic usage.

The vast majority of users will set themselves as anonymous and be done with it and never think about it again. I also truly don't understand what some people are freaking out over. Tracking websites are in almost every online game. I'm starting to believe that ZOS has babysitted the players too much and they've gotten used to it.

Here is hoping that this tool is here to stay, I hope they don't get rid of it.

In game opt out is not truly anonymous and I expect you see that. Even Kihra stated to be truly we would have to email them or create an account on the website to be truly anonymous. Lets make sure we use accurate information.

I do not want to see the tool go. I just want it done the right way and not rely on third parties for being anonymous.

Look at this point you're just picking straws to try and keep this dumb argument going. You know damn well there is not going to be players who give a total *** about using this data from a random dungeon to see that dude they were dpsing with, they can already tell in game if you are playing like *** by using CMX. So what is the difference here, it's on a website? Who cares lol, privacy? Most of this is already out there with addons anyway, if you bothered enough you can see some of this data if you just made some addons. This tool just dives deeper into data analysis which is what you're failing to understand & mark it as a privacy breech even though this sort of stuff is already going on in game.

And I doubt if you care so much about this whole anonymous argument you're going to be playing in a raid where you are the only anonymous one out of 7 other DPS. Start thinking rationally with this argument, it's been going on for 9 pages now about the same thing with this "true anonymity" what are you so afraid of to hide, unless you are trying to get into the top or are in the top I really don't think the people you play with are going to care much for this tool.

Also just remember people know regardless of this tool how well you are playing. It all depends on who you play with.

Stranger

I am really happy about this. Personally I love logs just to look at what I am doing and to improve myself better.

idk

DyingIsEasy wrote: »

show previous quotes

idk wrote: »

DyingIsEasy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Zos could have put the true opt out in game so that it permitted the buff info to pass through but nothing else. Instead Zos chose to leave that to a third party that can change hands and how they do things.

I really do not understand why so many are defending Zos' laziness in this matter. t would not hurt use of the tool in any manner as it would not hinder core progression teams from using this tool to it's fullest extent.

Because once you exclude that level of information, the data becomes meaningless. The "opt-out" that I'm talking about is simply redacting the name. So that you appear as "anonymous". What you want is impossible. It's not laziness. It's simple nonsensical impossibility. "Hey, the dungeon boss's health went from 50% to 25% in the span of a minute, which means the total group DPS is 60K, and if Alice there did 40K, then we can guess what Bob did." You can never get rid of that. You will never be able to get rid of it, unless you lobotomize so much data that the data becomes meaningless.

The anonymization that we are talking about is in the game itself, as I understand it. If someone chooses to be anonymous in the log (which I would argue should be the default), then the logs produced by anyone would not have their name.

"But what about extrapolating who they are based on who isn't anonymized?" As I said, you can't get rid of that. You call it laziness, but I call it common sense that it's an a priori impossibility. But, more importantly, this sort of extrapolative identification is already possible. In a dungeon, if a DD takes a screenshot with their CMX status panel saying that they are doing 60% of the group DPS, we already know that the other person is doing at most 40%. In a trial, if 7 DDs share their DPS and the 8th doesn't, people who care enough can do the math and determine what that 8th did. If only 6 DDs share, you can't determine what the last two did individually, just as here, if just two people choose to be anonymous, that extrapolative identification breaks down. How is that any different? How is any of this any worse than the example that I had given earlier of the screenshot?

(Aside: What is with this obsession with DPS? Honestly, when I first heard about this, my first thought was "new tool to figure out how mechanics work and why we wiped!" Measuring DPS didn't even cross my mind until the uproar in this thread over what are, frankly, speculative threats.)

My guess is you do some serious raiding based on many of your posts in these forums. I think you can pretty much surmise that serious raid groups would require players be opted in to raid with them which means your point that the data would become meaningless for those groups does not hold up to the smell test.

What I want is not impossible. @Kihra states on the second page that we can fully opt out at the website and all information except buffs will not be seen. If it can be done at the website the opt out in game can handle it as well. It is just categorizing the data in the database appropriately. I am not saying that is simple coding, but in reality it could be as easy as adding a new field and coding buffs as 1 and damage as 0.

I am also fully aware of what combat metrics can do as everyone who does any bit of serious raiding uses it. We are not talking about CMX in this thread, there are groups beyond 4 man and CMX seems to be used in this topic as a distraction.

In the end, I respect you. Have seen some great thoughts posted by you in the forums and know you make some great addons for raiding. I just think there is a better way that the opt out can be done and I guess you are just more concerned it could harm this new tool.

@idk

CMX is not used as a distraction. The point is that you could implement the same website using just CMX. This has the added benefit that only one person needs to upload the data.

So i guess the question is: Why do you think this is such a big deal but not CMX?

That is not the point people have been making. Look at what I quoted. It as in a 4 man group if CMX tells me I am going 60% of the damage then it is easy for me to see what the other dps is doing.

And yes, it is a distraction as we are talking about this new tool. Not CMX.

I think you are misunderstanding what i am trying to say.
I am not talking about being able to roughly estimate the dps of the other damage dealer when you are doing 60%.

Let's say we are doing a 4man dungeon and one person (person A) is flagged as anonymous in the logs.
What i mean is that you get EXACTLY the same information by throwing together the CMX SavedVariables of players B,C and D.

So again, this tool does not change anything at all.

How well does that work for you when you are in a 12 man group?

Exactly. Which is why discussion CMX in this conversation is not thing more than a distraction.

idk

Nifty2g wrote: »

show previous quotes

idk wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I'm just confused by why people are upset with this. It looks like it will be a great tool, and I am honestly having a hard time envisioning the kinds of abuse that people are afraid of. Which, again, is why I am bringing up CMX--not as a distraction, but as a point of comparison to what is already possible in terms of toxic usage.

The vast majority of users will set themselves as anonymous and be done with it and never think about it again. I also truly don't understand what some people are freaking out over. Tracking websites are in almost every online game. I'm starting to believe that ZOS has babysitted the players too much and they've gotten used to it.

Here is hoping that this tool is here to stay, I hope they don't get rid of it.

In game opt out is not truly anonymous and I expect you see that. Even Kihra stated to be truly we would have to email them or create an account on the website to be truly anonymous. Lets make sure we use accurate information.

I do not want to see the tool go. I just want it done the right way and not rely on third parties for being anonymous.

Look at this point you're just picking straws to try and keep this dumb argument going. You know damn well there is not going to be players who give a total *** about using this data from a random dungeon to see that dude they were dpsing with, they can already tell in game if you are playing like *** by using CMX. So what is the difference here, it's on a website? Who cares lol, privacy? Most of this is already out there with addons anyway, if you bothered enough you can see some of this data if you just made some addons. This tool just dives deeper into data analysis which is what you're failing to understand & mark it as a privacy breech even though this sort of stuff is already going on in game.

And I doubt if you care so much about this whole anonymous argument you're going to be playing in a raid where you are the only anonymous one out of 7 other DPS. Start thinking rationally with this argument, it's been going on for 9 pages now about the same thing with this "true anonymity" what are you so afraid of to hide, unless you are trying to get into the top or are in the top I really don't think the people you play with are going to care much for this tool.

Also just remember people know regardless of this tool how well you are playing. It all depends on who you play with.

LOL, picking straws? Then saying because I raid and have to share my dps with my raid group that I really do not care that much? Is that the best straw man you can come up with?

Hey. I get it. Just because you have no issues with it personally that you could care less about the rest of the gamers which is the only reason you look past this design flaw.

You have not come up with any solid reasoning Zos should not provide an solid opt in/out toggle for this inside the game. Your only argument is to be dismissive which is a sign you have no real argument to begin with.

VaranisArano

Nifty2g wrote: »

show previous quotes

idk wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I'm just confused by why people are upset with this. It looks like it will be a great tool, and I am honestly having a hard time envisioning the kinds of abuse that people are afraid of. Which, again, is why I am bringing up CMX--not as a distraction, but as a point of comparison to what is already possible in terms of toxic usage.

The vast majority of users will set themselves as anonymous and be done with it and never think about it again. I also truly don't understand what some people are freaking out over. Tracking websites are in almost every online game. I'm starting to believe that ZOS has babysitted the players too much and they've gotten used to it.

Here is hoping that this tool is here to stay, I hope they don't get rid of it.

In game opt out is not truly anonymous and I expect you see that. Even Kihra stated to be truly we would have to email them or create an account on the website to be truly anonymous. Lets make sure we use accurate information.

I do not want to see the tool go. I just want it done the right way and not rely on third parties for being anonymous.

Look at this point you're just picking straws to try and keep this dumb argument going. You know damn well there is not going to be players who give a total *** about using this data from a random dungeon to see that dude they were dpsing with, they can already tell in game if you are playing like *** by using CMX. So what is the difference here, it's on a website? Who cares lol, privacy? Most of this is already out there with addons anyway, if you bothered enough you can see some of this data if you just made some addons. This tool just dives deeper into data analysis which is what you're failing to understand & mark it as a privacy breech even though this sort of stuff is already going on in game.

And I doubt if you care so much about this whole anonymous argument you're going to be playing in a raid where you are the only anonymous one out of 7 other DPS. Start thinking rationally with this argument, it's been going on for 9 pages now about the same thing with this "true anonymity" what are you so afraid of to hide, unless you are trying to get into the top or are in the top I really don't think the people you play with are going to care much for this tool.

Also just remember people know regardless of this tool how well you are playing. It all depends on who you play with.

Bolded the part I want to speak to.

As I understand it, this log can be used at any level of content: PUG dungeon, PUG trial, guild dungeon, or guild trial. So if anyone in the group decides to log the run, it can be logged. If someone didn't choose to be anonymous (because anonymity is not the default), then their character name is attached to the data that gets logged. That logged data isn't private by default either.

As described earlier this thread, by default, all character names will be attached to all logged parses. Changing yourself to Anonymous requires checking a box in-game. Changing already posted Logs to be Anonymous requires an email tot he website or creating an account there to claim your characters and then change them to Anonymous.

So I don't really see it as a matter of being 1 of 4 players in a dungeon or 1 or 7 DDs in a raid. That's pretty much what we already have with Combat Metrics.

Rather I see the problem as one of "Because Anonymity is NOT the default, unless players set themselves to Anonymous, their character names are publicly attached to the Logs, which are also public on a 3rd party website, available to access by the Logger and anyone else the Logger chooses to share the data with."

Specifically:

Kihra wrote: »

show previous quotes

Varana wrote: »

So our group wants to use the tool with all the details visible, no one's anonymous. We upload it - is there an option that only members of our group will be able to see and analyse that log?

Yes, logs on the site can be public, private or unlisted.

Public = anyone can see them
Unlisted = anyone can see them as long as they know the URL to go to
Private = only people who have signed up an become members of the guild on the site can see them.

At the moment, all logs are forced to Private and will be for the duration of the PTS NDA.

In all of those cases, because the default is NOT anonymity, someone's character name can be shared with a Log with other people. Depending on the logger, someone's character name and log info could be shared with everyone viewing logs (Public), anyone the URL is given to (Unlisted), or anyone joining a "guild" on the site (Private). That's potentially quite a few people, given that any group content can be logged, not just private guild groups for trials.

In my opinion, consent to have your character name attached to the log should not be assumed. Anonymity should be the default. Organized Raid groups can simply require (like they already do) that their players consent to show their character names for private, public, or unlisted logs.

gapps

Never seen somthing that useless in this game, noone asked for it, and everyone wants fixes on Servers etc.

My guild asked me to help out - had to wait 20min in loginscreen to help my guild. Yeah better get a tool to spread more toxicity and more BIGBROTHER is watching moments.

we got CombatMetrix, etc... its enought i think - learn people how to do endgame, but thats the wrong way i guess.

Tyrobag

There needs to be a "Do Not Share My Data" option. As is, this is horribly invasive. The "anonymous" function only makes it a slightly longer process to identify someone (and not even that if there's only one person in that mode). My dps is perfectly within acceptable range, but I still don't want other people being able to look at my data without my permission. I would also never look at someone else's data without their explicit permission, unfortunately there are many people who do not share these scruples.

It its current state this is an invasion of privacy, plain and simple.

gapps

Tyrobag wrote: »

There needs to be a "Do Not Share My Data" option. As is, this is horribly invasive. The "anonymous" function only makes it a slightly longer process to identify someone (and not even that if there's only one person in that mode). My dps is perfectly within acceptable range, but I still don't want other people being able to look at my data without my permission. I would also never look at someone else's data without their explicit permission, unfortunately there are many people who do not share these scruples.

It its current state this is an invasion of privacy, plain and simple.

Jep - it will effect endgame more then casuals and there are not that many poeple anyway in endgame. So ty ZoS.

ATomiX96

warcraftlogs aaah I mean esologs looks cool

Cpt_Teemo

So why after 2 years after disabling all those dps meter Addon's they decided to bring it back in full force?

VaranisArano

gapps wrote: »

show previous quotes

Tyrobag wrote: »

There needs to be a "Do Not Share My Data" option. As is, this is horribly invasive. The "anonymous" function only makes it a slightly longer process to identify someone (and not even that if there's only one person in that mode). My dps is perfectly within acceptable range, but I still don't want other people being able to look at my data without my permission. I would also never look at someone else's data without their explicit permission, unfortunately there are many people who do not share these scruples.

It its current state this is an invasion of privacy, plain and simple.

Jep - it will effect endgame more then casuals and there are not that many poeple anyway in endgame. So ty ZoS.

Quite possibly.

On the other hand, this is designed to log any encounter. So anyone in any level of group content can log the encounter and share the log data with anyone they want.

That's not a problem if everyone is anonymous by default.

But as far as we know from this thread and Kihra, anonymity is not the default option.

It shouldn't be assumed that every player is okay with any random they group with logging their character name/log and being able to share that with whoever that person wants.

Wolfkeks

Tyrobag wrote: »

There needs to be a "Do Not Share My Data" option. As is, this is horribly invasive. The "anonymous" function only makes it a slightly longer process to identify someone (and not even that if there's only one person in that mode). My dps is perfectly within acceptable range, but I still don't want other people being able to look at my data without my permission. I would also never look at someone else's data without their explicit permission, unfortunately there are many people who do not share these scruples.

It its current state this is an invasion of privacy, plain and simple.

Yeah, I'm totally with you there. I don't have a problem using an addon and sharing my dps with my raiding group (it's in even required in one of my guilds), but I (and even anonymously) don't wanna share all my data with every person I group up with.
Why would I? I decide whether I want to share information or not.

T3hasiangod

Someone needs to answer this question.

Why are so many people afraid of their character names being attached to this log? There is literally nothing in these logs that can't already be figured out using existing methods. In fact, as several people have pointed out in this thread, the tools we currently have a more effective and efficient than using the logs. So why are people so afraid of their character names being attached to a log?

If your argument is "it's an invasion of my privacy", then you should really be looking at yourself right now, because if you are on any social media platform, your privacy is not guaranteed. There is a bunch of verifiable news that relates to how some companies are essentially using the metadata you generate to better serve ads to you. There have been multiple reports, with some verified by governments and security experts, of malicious attacks on other websites. If you are concerned about your username on an MMO being made public, but are ok with other websites using your data to give you better ads and Youtube videos, then I have serious misgivings about your sincerity about "privacy".

anitajoneb17_ESO

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Someone needs to answer this question.

That's been answered several times from several points of view. Read thread again.

T3hasiangod

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Someone needs to answer this question.

That's been answered several times from several points of view. Read thread again.

All of your concerns have already been addressed by people on this thread. Code wrote an incredibly comprehensive post that covers just about all of the concerns voiced thus far. So I continue to ask: after all the clarifications, reassurances, and fact-checking, why are people still concerned about their name being attached to these logs?

code65536

T3hasiangod wrote: »

why are people still concerned about their name being attached to these logs?

...or not attached to them, with only an inferential connection, as the case will likely be.

templesus

T3hasiangod wrote: »

show previous quotes

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Someone needs to answer this question.

That's been answered several times from several points of view. Read thread again.

All of your concerns have already been addressed by people on this thread. Code wrote an incredibly comprehensive post that covers just about all of the concerns voiced thus far. So I continue to ask: after all the clarifications, reassurances, and fact-checking, why are people still concerned about their name being attached to these logs?

We all know the answer.

[edit]

[edited for non-constructive comment]

VaranisArano

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Someone needs to answer this question.

Why are so many people afraid of their character names being attached to this log? There is literally nothing in these logs that can't already be figured out using existing methods. In fact, as several people have pointed out in this thread, the tools we currently have a more effective and efficient than using the logs. So why are people so afraid of their character names being attached to a log?

If your argument is "it's an invasion of my privacy", then you should really be looking at yourself right now, because if you are on any social media platform, your privacy is not guaranteed. There is a bunch of verifiable news that relates to how some companies are essentially using the metadata you generate to better serve ads to you. There have been multiple reports, with some verified by governments and security experts, of malicious attacks on other websites. If you are concerned about your username on an MMO being made public, but are ok with other websites using your data to give you better ads and Youtube videos, then I have serious misgivings about your sincerity about "privacy".

I'm struggling a bit to respond to this, because it strikes me as a false analogy. "If you aren't concerned about how other sites use other data, then you can't possibly be genuinely concerned about how this specific ESO Log site might enable others to view or use your specific character name/log data."

Or in other words, your claim is, "If you aren't obviously concerned about ALL privacy concerns ever, you can't claim to be concerned about THIS privacy concern."

That's, uh, not the case.

Nor do I have to prove my concern about privacy on Facebook, adblockers, etc to your satisfaction before I can comment on my concerns about the privacy of players having to opt out of having their character names/logs recorded, posted, and shared by anyone who wants to log ESO encounters.

Part of the reason you might see a lack of specific concerns is that we haven't seen the ESO Log program in action. We've only heard from Kihra. So we don't have a really good view of how this tool might be vulnerable to abuse. That's one reason I've tried to steer clear of too much speculation beyond what we do know.

We do know that, as described earlier this thread, anyone using the log can post and share the logs containing character names with anyone they want AND that anonymity is not the default. As designed, there's no expectation of privacy unless you specifically mark a checkbox or later decide to create an account, email the site owner, and claim your characters.

One area of concern I have is new players, possibly also returning players. When players join, its very easy to be overwhelmed by the flood of new information when you start ESO, and they may not realize that anonymity is NOT the default. (For evidence, I point to the number of players who manage to miss basic gameplay info displayed at the beginning like how to unlock new weapon lines, etc.) I'd like to avoid situations where players discover that their character names/logs are on ESO Logs for everyone to see, go "Wait, what? When did I agree to that? How so I stop it?" And then the Community has to explain, "Well, you agreed by default...first you have to check the box to be anonymous. Then if you want to hide all that old data, you have to join the website, claim your characters, and set them to hidden, etc." That's a very "close the barn after the horses have run off" type response. Its much easier to be proactive and simply make anonymity the default, such that anyone who actually wants to use the ESO Logs can uncheck anonymity whenever they are okay with anyone running the Log having access to their character name and log.

Making Anonymity the default removes a LOT of my concerns. It means that anyone who isn't anonymous made the choice to allow anyone using the ESO Log to log and then use and publish their character name with the data. That's also identical to the current state of the game. Right now, Anonymity is the default, unless you choose to post your Combat Metrics parse with your character name.

VaranisArano

On a somewhat more humorous note, I have now written "anonymity" enough that it has ceased looking like an actual real word and I had to look it up to make sure I was still spelling it right.

code65536

VaranisArano wrote: »

Making Anonymity the default removes a LOT of my concerns. It means that anyone who isn't anonymous made the choice to allow anyone using the ESO Log to log and then use and publish their character name with the data.

I agree completely.

Wolfkeks

I think the best approach is to just make an disable button for people who don't want to use it.

I think it's a great tool, especially for progression groups and raiding guilds, for big yay for that.

But if people don't want to use it,l for whatever reason (some people just simply don't want to share their data), make an disable button.

Everyone who wants to use it can use it.
Everyone who doesn't want to use it don't have to.

Everyone would be happy.
We would have an awesome new feature and people can decide whether they want to use it or not.

Flares

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

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hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I literally just spoke with the person...so you are just making things up...
1. ZOS makes the decision what the default will be
2. Whoever records the fight uploads the data to website
3. Website checks the for whether the users in group chose to OPT in or OPT out, then posts the data...

1. I don't care whose decision it is. Doesn't matter to me. Default should be "disabled" and people would have to actively opt-in, that's what matters.
2. Whoever means "anyone", right ? Even if I, as a member of the group, have opted out.
3. Does that mean that, until the stuff's uploaded, I'm still 100% identifiable ? What if people decide to upload it and make it public in some other place, with no check on whether I've opted in or out ?

It's even worse than I thought.

If you are really that worried then just don't raid vet. It wasn't meant for people like you either way. There is alot of casual content in the game already.