Update 22 Combat Direction

Azyle1

It sounds like me like they are trying to gut Stam nightblades.

Minno

usmcjdking wrote: »

I'm going to take a leap of faith here and hope that both Stamplar and Stamsorc get some meaningful class skills. Stamplar gets some awesome stam-oriented utility morphs while Stamsorc just gets some meaningful source of damage lol.

Stam total dark and stam frags incoming lol

Tommy_The_Gun

Azyle1 wrote: »

It sounds like me like they are trying to gut Stam nightblades.

My fear is they will gut anything that is not a stam necromancer or mag necromancer...

Emma_Overload

Since they're looking at the tick times for dots, I hope they look at the dot from Destructive Reach/Clench. This dot has way too long a delay before it ticks (2 seconds). If you use Reach/Clench as a Sorc spammable, you might NEVER see a tick!

Also, dot ticks of weapon abilities in general (e.g. Wall of Elements) need to be shortened to 0.5 seconds or even less. It is pretty much impossible to receive the full benefit of the Torug's Pact 5 pc bonus with 1 or 2 second ticks.

tinythinker

Turelus wrote: »

I don't suppose there has been any looking into alternative methods of weaving or making non-weaving a litter better for people?

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

For the record -- it's OK to have class skills that are individually "overpowered". Overall power of great active skills plus any passives just has to be considered in combination when judging a class or spec.

Agreed.

I will reserve any judgements until the patch notes go up the the changes hit the PTS rather than trying to read anything into the post. It's too easy to get worked up over maybes and what-ifs.

We shouldn't expect the dev team to place any particular weight on what any one player or their friends have to say, yet on some level we feel they should cater to our own play styles. I hope they simultaneously develop of a vision and maintain some flexibility going forward. That is, try something long enough to see how it works but be ready to change direction or make exceptions when results (a.k.a. fun factor) call for it.

I thank Mr. Wheeler for sharing with us today and for his and the combat team's hard work. Some payers will always gripe and some will always cheer, so in the end I respect the team's ability to work under pressure and maintain the courage of their convictions.

---

OK, the rest of this is just "blah blah blah" about my opinions on class design and changes.These are all from my perspective, so I don't expect everyone else to see thing the same way or agree. Of course I'm a forum brick layers with years of building walls of texts, so even my brief reaction might get longish.

My own vanity list:

1. As per above on some skills seeming over-powered in a head to head comparison with a similar skill from another class, I'm in favor of imperfect symmetry. You can have that and still strive for better balance. This gets into class identity as well and concerns over things like homogenization. In my own preference, while a DK should be able to heal, it shouldn't be a clone of a Templar. The mechanics and animations should be distinct, with each bringing different strengths that reflect differing class fantasy. And some classes having an edge for some roles or approaches to roles can be OK. It makes the choice of class more meaningful.

2. Consider identifying/retaining or creating multiple categories and sub-types of of ability functions and delivery systems. This allows for enhanced class uniqueness (see #1) and game play choices, as there can be unique combinations: healing category 1, sub-type A, delivery method ii versus healing category 1 sub-type B, delivery method i versus healing category 1, subtype B, delivery method iii. Or go way out and change all three for something truly distinct (category 3, sub-type C, deliver method ii). This allows for some standardization but also uniqueness in the combinations themselves, plus whatever special sauce from passives are layered on top.

To stick with the above example, a DK might be better at certain types of heal types or delivery approaches than Templars, and vice versa. Templar might be a strong overall all-around healer, while other classes are more specialized (but still viable for all content at a basic level). Plus, not everything of course has to be baked into class skill lines to help classes with particular roles. For example, imagine a set that offers a buff to healing done when you do elemental damage. This would be great for Sorcs and DKs.

3. Please don't strip things down too far in removing functions from abilities. Having an ability offer more than one thing is fun for theorycrafting/more build options as well as gameplay feel.

4. Please don't reduce it "one source for X per class". Having *some* redundancy within a class is a good thing so people don't feel forced to slot certain things. Passives can help some here as well by offers "X" for some or all of a skill line rather than just a single skill.

That said, if there is a consistent vision for combat and for class identity (class fantasy and its execution in mechanics/animations) please favor the latter over the former when push comes to shove. And if an ability needs to be changed so much it loses it's iconic function/identity, my own preference would be to retire it and hype us with the new ability name/function/etc.

Here's hoping for a great start to the new era in combat development for ESO!

Mojmir

More reasons too enjoy the outdoors.

Zer0oo

I forget to mention please keep in mind: If you split everything that skills will only have one function, it will make functioning solo pvp builds impossible.

Can we also look at the strange cc duration and effects since some classes (e.g sorc) got pretty screwed on theirs while others still have overloaded cc with extreme long duration(fear, surprise attack, fossilize,...).


Edit:
Nice to see that the combat team seem to have a plan and so far it looks quite nice.

Azyle1

Turelus wrote: »

Thanks for the insight Brian, excited to see what the balance pass brings.

Seems you have a solid idea of what gameplay you want to have in the game now and where you want to go with it.

I don't suppose there has been any looking into alternative methods of weaving or making non-weaving a litter better for people? It's become a big barrier of entry into higher tier content for those with disabilities or getting slow in their old age.

I'll probably get bashed for this but I'm not sure I agree with this.

If someone is old and/or has physical or mental disabilities, then they just won't be able to play at the level of people that are really skilled at the game. Not everyone should be able to do all Vet HM Trials. The base game and even some vet content is available for everyone for the most part. You do not need weaving to do normal dungeons and trials. If you want to do top tier, unfortunately, there should be something there that does serve as a barrier or else you might as well give everyone an "I win" button.

Example, not applying to me:

My Eye doctor says I have somewhat below average depth perception. I don't expect different sports to change rules to accommodate me. I just... wont be as good.

luen79rwb17_ESO

This is looking great! There seems to be a clear direction towards a logical approach to define what a skill can do. This seems so much better than the bloody mess we have on live right now. A DoT skill used as a spammable ffs...

code65536

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Also, dot ticks of weapon abilities in general (e.g. Wall of Elements) need to be shortened to 0.5 seconds or even less. It is pretty much impossible to receive the full benefit of the Torug's Pact 5 pc bonus with 1 or 2 second ticks.

2s is probably too long, but 1s is just fine. And there's a reason why abilities shouldn't tick too frequently:

Adjusted several abilities to improve overall game performance. Affected abilities will now tick less frequently, but deal more damage such that overall damage should remain constant. The affected abilities include:

• Blazing Spear
• Consuming Darkness and its morphs
• Eruption
• Lightning Splash and its morphs
• Necrotic Orb and its morphs
• Path of Darkness and its morphs
• Radiant Destruction and its morphs

labambao

Take a look at overperforming heroic slash. That ability grants too much

itscompton

Marteene wrote: »

For nightblade last I’d love to see Minor Berserk based off of Assassin’s Will procs and not on activation of Grim Focus. If each Assassin’s Will were to proc say 8.5 seconds of Minor Berserk, the skill would keep its identity but would not reward players who don’t play the class efficiently and leave the good NBs unharmed.

Not that I won't be a bit sad to lose minor berserk when I'm playing my NB but doesn't getting access (after landing 4 light attacks) to a proc ability that hits harder than many ults make this move loaded enough already? NB base damage is so high anyway this just makes them a bit less noob freindly. I would like to see a bit more survivability built into the class though, perhaps they could make grim focus give resistance buffs that last 20-30 seconds instead of forcing NB's to cloak every three seconds to keep those buffs up.

Alchimiste1

Sounds like you all are working on quite a few things that could be good for the game, but might I suggest not gutting mag nb anymore, they are already limping along.

CleymenZero

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

With Update 22 coming to the PTS in just a few weeks, we want to give you all an update on how we’re approaching combat adjustments this patch. We know there’s a lot of information out there already since the embargo lift and it’s great to see everyone excited about Elsweyr and the Necromancer! However, be aware unless it’s stated from us or included in official patch notes, it’s all subject to change until it’s on the PTS and Live.

With that being said, let’s dive into how we are approaching the Elsweyr update. First off, we are getting the Necromancer ready for prime time! This class was created with three major tenants of play:

• Create a class that feels entirely unique and different than any other class in ESO
• Create a class that embodies Necromancy in Elder Scrolls lore/canon
• Add new gameplay elements via corpses, temporary pets and emphasize positional gameplay

The Necromancer is the first class to have multiple passes by our own players prior to it launching with the Class Reps and members of the community that recently visited the studio. Their feedback has greatly helped our development process, and we believe the Necromancer is setup nicely to fill both Magicka or Stamina roles for healing, tanking or DPS. Thanks again to the fine folks that visited us, and we’re looking forward to everyone trying out the Necromancer on the PTS! .

Over the years of development, there have been numerous changes to class abilities both in function and under the hood with code. These changes have shaped the face of combat in ESO over time, but as the game has evolved with each passing year, we have accrued many changes that have fallen out of vogue. With this update, we are making several adjustments to bring abilities back in line with the current state of the game and create a solid foundation of standards for the future.

In Update 22 we have done a pass on every Class ability looking for errant or missing data. We also made sure abilities follow a coherent pattern of Rank progression that is easy to identify. For example, if an ability morph does damage, the rank progression adds more damage. If an ability morph does healing, the rank progression does more healing.

Ability coefficients and costs have also been audited to ensure that healing or damage within the type of ability (such as a DD, DoT, HoT, Direct Heal) are more consistent. The duration of abilities and sub-effects have been normalized so they adhere to patterns that fall in line with the play-style of ESO, making their use in rotations easier to handle. For example:

• Single Target DoTs have been a long standing group of abilities that were not consistent in their application of damage. Looking at these types of abilities’ duration, tick frequencies, and delays, a consistent pattern of application was missing from ability to ability. Some of these abilities have even be used as "spammable" abilities (Searing Strike), despite that being against their design. In this pass, we've restructured them to follow a standard behavior:
  • If there is an initial hit upon casting one of these abilities, there will always be a delay between the initial hit and the first tick
  • If there no initial hit, there will be no delay
  • Delays (i.e. an ability that doesn’t hit immediately) will always be the same duration as the DoT's frequency in which it ticks.

Next were abilities that were considered out of standards based on the audit pass noted above. Some abilities contained a LOT of functionality (Incapacitating Strike), and others not as much (Teleport Strike) when looking at abilities across the board. Moving forward, abilities within the same “Category” should have a base level of performance but also have something that makes it unique. In doing this pass, we found abilities that had components which were above or below base functionality and made adjustments to bring them in line. In some cases, base damage/healing has been increased make up for the removal of additional functions. In other cases, base damage/healing has been reduced to make up for adding in additional functions.

We also took a high level pass at Class abilities, specifically looking for similar/redundant functions within each class's entire tool kit (like Mark Target granting Fracture and Surprise Attack granting Fracture). While we want there to be different abilities that operate similarly in functionality between your class, weapon, guild, and other skill lines, we want to avoid abilities within the same class to provide multiple sources of the same effect(s). This is an on-going effort for future skill lines, and we are not opposed to revisiting the structure of abilities that have already received this audit. Also note these passes were done in conjunction with the changes noted above regarding coefficient/cost/Rank progression, etc.

In terms of quality of life changes, we’ve heard your feedback about cast times being difficult to incorporate into fluid combat/rotation, and have made adjustments to many abilities with cast times to make them easier to weave and be more reliable. In most of these cases, we have adjusted the damage as well in coordination with cast time adjustments to retain the DPS you’re used to in U21.

There will be a bunch of patch notes coming for PTS soon, so stay tuned! Thanks for reading gang, and if you’ve gotten this far, here’s a little sneak peek:

• Cleave: (Reworked this ability and its morphs) Damage increased by 50%, but removed the bleed from this base ability completely.
  • Carve: Retains the bleed; bleed damage increased by 25%. No longer grants Minor Heroism.
  • Brawler: Removed the bleed from this ability. Increased the Shield granted from this morph by 100% at base, but reduced the bonus scaling per target hit from 100% to 50%. This means at base this ability will be 100% stronger than before, and will be ~14% stronger than previously if you get the maximum bonus.

Can you do something about the medium armor skill to make it more useful?

DW has deadly Cloak which give major evasion plus deals damage, the medium armor skill doesn't do damage and takes up a skill slot, it would be good to motivate players to use it on 2H or DW builds.

FrancisCrawford

labambao wrote: »

Take a look at overperforming heroic slash. That ability grants too much

Is this because you think tanks are overpowered and need a nerf?

CleymenZero

Also should take a look at sturdy Warhorn. It is completely useless. Make a version grant major heroism.

Elsonso

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

It sounds like me like they are trying to gut Stam nightblades.

My fear is they will gut anything that is not a stam necromancer or mag necromancer...

I don't see that happening.

ZOS_BrianWheeler

All Active abilities in skill lines other than Class lines will be addressed with the same standardization/audit in future updates.

Xvorg

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Passives will be addressed in a future update. We wanted to hit the Actives this patch and are looking at applying these standards/audit to more Actives in the future. It's a lot to go through but we'll get there

So DD mDKs will still be pigeoholed into using one melee skill to get the all the benefits from their own skill line, while DD sDKs will have 0 chances to take advantage of ranged gameplay, except in the form of a poison status granted by only one skill.

I think that is wrong. The passives of each class should be looked at first and then, based on those fixed passives, you could work on renewing active skills. You are putting the roof before the walls and nothing good will come out from that.

ezio45

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

anything about heavy meta?? O.O

Illuvatarr

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

With Update 22 coming to the PTS in just a few weeks, we want to give you all an update on how we’re approaching combat adjustments this patch. We know there’s a lot of information out there already since the embargo lift and it’s great to see everyone excited about Elsweyr and the Necromancer! However, be aware unless it’s stated from us or included in official patch notes, it’s all subject to change until it’s on the PTS and Live.

With that being said, let’s dive into how we are approaching the Elsweyr update. First off, we are getting the Necromancer ready for prime time! This class was created with three major tenants of play:

• Create a class that feels entirely unique and different than any other class in ESO
• Create a class that embodies Necromancy in Elder Scrolls lore/canon
• Add new gameplay elements via corpses, temporary pets and emphasize positional gameplay

The Necromancer is the first class to have multiple passes by our own players prior to it launching with the Class Reps and members of the community that recently visited the studio. Their feedback has greatly helped our development process, and we believe the Necromancer is setup nicely to fill both Magicka or Stamina roles for healing, tanking or DPS. Thanks again to the fine folks that visited us, and we’re looking forward to everyone trying out the Necromancer on the PTS! .

Over the years of development, there have been numerous changes to class abilities both in function and under the hood with code. These changes have shaped the face of combat in ESO over time, but as the game has evolved with each passing year, we have accrued many changes that have fallen out of vogue. With this update, we are making several adjustments to bring abilities back in line with the current state of the game and create a solid foundation of standards for the future.

In Update 22 we have done a pass on every Class ability looking for errant or missing data. We also made sure abilities follow a coherent pattern of Rank progression that is easy to identify. For example, if an ability morph does damage, the rank progression adds more damage. If an ability morph does healing, the rank progression does more healing.

Ability coefficients and costs have also been audited to ensure that healing or damage within the type of ability (such as a DD, DoT, HoT, Direct Heal) are more consistent. The duration of abilities and sub-effects have been normalized so they adhere to patterns that fall in line with the play-style of ESO, making their use in rotations easier to handle. For example:

• Single Target DoTs have been a long standing group of abilities that were not consistent in their application of damage. Looking at these types of abilities’ duration, tick frequencies, and delays, a consistent pattern of application was missing from ability to ability. Some of these abilities have even be used as "spammable" abilities (Searing Strike), despite that being against their design. In this pass, we've restructured them to follow a standard behavior:
  • If there is an initial hit upon casting one of these abilities, there will always be a delay between the initial hit and the first tick
  • If there no initial hit, there will be no delay
  • Delays (i.e. an ability that doesn’t hit immediately) will always be the same duration as the DoT's frequency in which it ticks.

Next were abilities that were considered out of standards based on the audit pass noted above. Some abilities contained a LOT of functionality (Incapacitating Strike), and others not as much (Teleport Strike) when looking at abilities across the board. Moving forward, abilities within the same “Category” should have a base level of performance but also have something that makes it unique. In doing this pass, we found abilities that had components which were above or below base functionality and made adjustments to bring them in line. In some cases, base damage/healing has been increased make up for the removal of additional functions. In other cases, base damage/healing has been reduced to make up for adding in additional functions.

We also took a high level pass at Class abilities, specifically looking for similar/redundant functions within each class's entire tool kit (like Mark Target granting Fracture and Surprise Attack granting Fracture). While we want there to be different abilities that operate similarly in functionality between your class, weapon, guild, and other skill lines, we want to avoid abilities within the same class to provide multiple sources of the same effect(s). This is an on-going effort for future skill lines, and we are not opposed to revisiting the structure of abilities that have already received this audit. Also note these passes were done in conjunction with the changes noted above regarding coefficient/cost/Rank progression, etc.

In terms of quality of life changes, we’ve heard your feedback about cast times being difficult to incorporate into fluid combat/rotation, and have made adjustments to many abilities with cast times to make them easier to weave and be more reliable. In most of these cases, we have adjusted the damage as well in coordination with cast time adjustments to retain the DPS you’re used to in U21.

There will be a bunch of patch notes coming for PTS soon, so stay tuned! Thanks for reading gang, and if you’ve gotten this far, here’s a little sneak peek:

• Cleave: (Reworked this ability and its morphs) Damage increased by 50%, but removed the bleed from this base ability completely.
  • Carve: Retains the bleed; bleed damage increased by 25%. No longer grants Minor Heroism.
  • Brawler: Removed the bleed from this ability. Increased the Shield granted from this morph by 100% at base, but reduced the bonus scaling per target hit from 100% to 50%. This means at base this ability will be 100% stronger than before, and will be ~14% stronger than previously if you get the maximum bonus.
  [/list
  
  I hope this means Daedric tomb is being altered. I love the concept of this spell being on my bar and I hope that the cost and mine detection radius at a bare minimum are being addressed.
  

Universe

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

All Active abilities in skill lines other than Class lines will be addressed with the same standardization/audit in future updates.

Future updates ? in about 4-6 months ? Q3 or Q4 ?
We play the waiting game xD

MartiniDaniels

If rending slashes and claw will be changed in that way, can we got class stam spammable on DK? I.e. magDK will get that hybrid of grim focus and frags, and stamDK should receive power lash as stam. It's attachment to off-balance fits stam perfectly.

Gilvoth

Brian Wheeler is at the helm, i can see good things on the horizon from his work.

efster

Are these exciting new changes going to help all classes perform comparably well in all roles? Or is the plan for necro only to be so very wonderful at all three?

UrQuan

I appreciate the update about the philosophy and methodology behind your approach to re-balancing skills. As always I'll reserve judgment about whether I think the changes are good or not until I've actually seen them, but I this sounds promising to me.

Beardimus

Great read, cool to know you giving everything a refresh with current context applied, adjusting things left in legacy is cool.

Edit: Answered above thx Brian. What about guild skills - mages for example where very fee skills are actually used now?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Lord_Zele wrote: »

The Cleave Buff?!
THE BLIND WARRIOR SHALL RISE
CLEAVE, CLEAVE EVERYTHING!

This is sounding very promising so far.

Who knows if it’s going be good with zergs increased to 50% is big. It might out damage wrecking blow @ZOS_BrianWheeler I hope you guys look at wrecking blow/dizzying swing if not cleave will be the new spamable which shouldn’t be as intended like flurry and throwing dagger. Since the buff to light attacks a lot of channeled spamable are being mostly out parred by instant cast. Sure those channel times are good but they need an update since it’s been a year or two since it’s been updated.

The bleed from cleave with the 25% increase is around the same as rending/blood craze is now. Not really that big of deal. It is like no one has ever used the brawler before.

If you are going to make it so that you have to choose between more damage and more survivability, like you are talking about with cleave, please dont forget about rending/blood craze. I love brawler and blood craze, the DPS loss is minimal with both right now for the amount of survivability you get. No idea what you could do with blood craze to make it worth using without the bleed, like brawler is going to be.


Going to miss using burning embers on my magdk as a spammable, make playing on that toon so much more enjoyable.

vesselwiththepestle

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

All Active abilities in skill lines other than Class lines will be addressed with the same standardization/audit in future updates.

So for U22, are you changing only Class line skills? You've got several examples from weapon skill lines. Or won't those changes just go through the same passes like class skills, so we might see further changes?

Maybe I missed it, is there a date for PTS already?

Alucardo

Based on your plans with cleave I have high hopes! You've obviously heard people's cries over the lack of decent weapon skill line spammables (probably why so many builds don't have one and just use rending slashes).