Update 22 Combat Direction

Rex-Umbra

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

All Active abilities in skill lines other than Class lines will be addressed with the same standardization/audit in future updates.

Weapon lines probably the least balanced atm. Thinking bleeds

Illuvatarr

The wings change is the biggest buff to any class I have seen in this game. If you slot meditate, you can just stand there and laugh while you endlessly sustain in 1vx. I am not sure some DK’s fully grasp just how powerful this buff is. DK’s will also without a doubt be ensured the title of best pve tank.

cpuScientist

Lord_Zele wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Lord_Zele wrote: »

The Cleave Buff?!
THE BLIND WARRIOR SHALL RISE
CLEAVE, CLEAVE EVERYTHING!

This is sounding very promising so far.

Who knows if it’s going be good with zergs increased to 50% is big. It might out damage wrecking blow @ZOS_BrianWheeler I hope you guys look at wrecking blow/dizzying swing if not cleave will be the new spamable which shouldn’t be as intended like flurry and throwing dagger. Since the buff to light attacks a lot of channeled spamable are being mostly out parred by instant cast. Sure those channel times are good but they need an update since it’s been a year or two since it’s been updated.

Just imagine it with Master's 2h as well. It could be a zerg KILLER.
I'm curious to see what they would do with other abilities as 'flurry' and 'throwing dagger'.
Very interested and will patiently wait it out while I destroy people in Cyrodiil.
Can't wait to YEET people with Cleave though.

I'd say that this cleave this AOE if it works as we expect and they don't Nerf the heck out of master 2h, will be strong vs ZERGy ball groups but NOT vs small man or solo. It's the perfect small man tool. Further the range is not as big as steel tornado and does not go behind. I think this is a good change and if it needs Nerfing then so be it. But I'm excited about it. Has me excited because this is what I have been wanting for stamSorc not to be forced into dual wield. Hopefully they also add some stamSorc specific changes. Melee frag Air Overload. Crit surge costing Stam...

Crixus8000

cpuScientist wrote: »

Hopefully they also add some stamSorc specific changes. Melee frag Air Overload. Crit surge costing Stam...

I'm all for stamsorc changes, but just making random skills cost stam would be a nerf, crit surge is fine costing magicka, costing over 3k stam would hurt sustain for no reason.

I would love something done to bound armaments and a stamina air atro though. And look forward to the passive changes in the future

John_Falstaff

Illuvatarr wrote: »

The wings change is the biggest buff to any class I have seen in this game. If you slot meditate, you can just stand there and laugh while you endlessly sustain in 1vx. I am not sure some DK’s fully grasp just how powerful this buff is. DK’s will also without a doubt be ensured the title of best pve tank.

Projectiles only, and meditate can be interrupted by any sneeze. I'm not sure how that idea of endless sustain makes sense. As for PvE tanking - thanks, but it's not always the projectiles the heaviest damage comes from; thanks for taking away something that could reflect defiles in vet Blackrose.

Ragnarock41

Anyone here thinking brawler would be a zerg destroyer are in for a suprise. Brawler has very limited range and is hard to connect especially when its laggy. (It suffers from the same issues jabs has)

That being said its still better than having to use dizzying swing since cast times are even worse to work with. And well, 2h really needed an instant cast spammable, so again, great move. I love it, and finally I have a reason to dust off my master 2h.

Shinshadow

As I read this, I instantly started to think "R.I.P. Nightblades" as their skills constantly got mentioned.

aetherial_heavenn

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Thank you for your communication. It is great to see a coherent approach communicated to the player base, prior to changes.

I love ESO combat. It is fast without being twitchy. It also didn't hitch and lag and make end game unplayable like my previous ancient MMO. I play most aspects of the game at least once a week: BG's, Cyrodil open world, Trials normal and easier vet, dungeons normal and all vet, crafting writs and questing.

When started in 2016 i was getting 220ms ping on an old DSL copper wire connection in country Victoria, Australia over 7 k of copper wire. It crept up to 260ms over time. (The Cyro anti cheat engine tweaks, affected the delay a bit but I was getting 240-260 consistently in dungeons and open world. ) It stayed pretty stable between 220 and 260ms even after I got broadband. Until last year I could still play the content I loved. I would have taken a fierce interest in the changes to my warden and templar healers and looked forward to making a healer-mancer.
but there is little point.

The reason? I just can't do the stuff I used to do because...well read the songs, haiku and most importantly data in this thread. There is not a single moderator comment in 19 pages. Surely that alone is worth acknowledging. In fact, the 19 pages have had no response at all.*****see below***

That is a major problem right there, Mr Wheeler. How would you as a gamer feel if this was your fave game, You couldn't play it properly and no one even said we are aware of the issue?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/439549/oceanic-lag-now-300-400-ms-even-with-a-vpn-was-250-300#latest

The Aussies in my guilds stopped playing Cyro last month. Fewer sign ups from Oceanics for vTrials. I don't want to try anymore achievements because the hitbox lag ruins no death runs for everyone. As a gamer, you understand. Help

Get out a map. Look up Melbourne Australia. Trace a route to Sydney or Brisbane. Then to LA. Or Texas.Or Boston. OK now imagine what happens to me. Some months ago my trace went Melbourne Sydney Singapore, The Netherlands, then the USA. Another time Brisbane Singapore Hong Kong Tokyo... to West Coast USA. (north to go East seems weird to me. Imagine how the New Zealanders felt.) Last week my packets took a trip to Perth before being routed backwards to the US. I'd love to explore your wonderful work, combat team. But there is little point at the moment.

****By the way, this is not about Oceanic servers: a whole wild-goose chase, side track exercise, that was always doomed to fail. This is about performance degradation that makes a product unfit for purpose due to a third party system operating between the client and the server.[/b*****

Strider__Roshin

Any plans to adjust racial balance for the Stam races? The magicka ones are fairly strong, but Orcs are BiS for every class, and Nords still aren't considered a viable option for DPS; five years later!

MashmalloMan

Daus wrote: »

Any plans to adjust racial balance for the Stam races? The magicka ones are fairly strong, but Orcs are BiS for every class, and Nords still aren't considered a viable option for DPS; five years later!

Why are Nords not a valid option? Do we really need 7/10 races to be proficient as stam DD in the way your looking for? There's only so many stats useful to the DD role and a stat budget thats already filled. They are unique enough already and better as stam DD then the remaining 3/10 races.

Orc's a bit too strong though. I'd take a healthy balance of 1500 sta and 750 hp.

IwakuraLain42

Turelus wrote: »

Thanks for the insight Brian, excited to see what the balance pass brings.

Seems you have a solid idea of what gameplay you want to have in the game now and where you want to go with it.

I don't suppose there has been any looking into alternative methods of weaving or making non-weaving a litter better for people? It's become a big barrier of entry into higher tier content for those with disabilities or getting slow in their old age.

I would love to see that addressed in some form but honestly I don't see that happening. From all that I see here or hear from our class reps all they think that is necessary is some kind of better communication about how this insane, illogical and twitchy combat input system work. All they ever did to address that was add a line in one of the tutorials and some text in the one of the loading screens.

One of the reason's why I'm probably not continuing after my current ESO+ subscription run out ...

Ragnarock41

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Any plans to adjust racial balance for the Stam races? The magicka ones are fairly strong, but Orcs are BiS for every class, and Nords still aren't considered a viable option for DPS; five years later!

Why are Nords not a valid option? Do we really need 7/10 races to be proficient as stam DD in the way your looking for? There's only so many stats useful to the DD role and a stat budget thats already filled. They are unique enough already and better as stam DD then the remaining 3/10 races.

Orc's a bit too strong though. I'd take a healthy balance of 1500 sta and 750 hp.

As a die hard Orc fan, I admit Orc could lose like 500-750 stam and would still be great. I wouldn't touch the HP though.

Undefwun

Brian says "looking at class actives only this time round"... but gives weapon active as an example... hmmm

I like the approach of changes with a method though, looking to standardise things. So I'm looking forward the actual patch notes..

Also enjoying ppl already threatening to quit.... before any concrete information... the rest of us will adapt.. as usual...

PS I second @aetherial_heavenn that Akamai routing is horrible for us Aussies. I use mudfish to remove most of that issue, but I still bounce between 240-300 at the very best of times.... but I shouldn't have to.

Bitmun

tinythinker wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I don't suppose there has been any looking into alternative methods of weaving or making non-weaving a litter better for people?

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

For the record -- it's OK to have class skills that are individually "overpowered". Overall power of great active skills plus any passives just has to be considered in combination when judging a class or spec.

Agreed.

I will reserve any judgements until the patch notes go up the the changes hit the PTS rather than trying to read anything into the post. It's too easy to get worked up over maybes and what-ifs.

We shouldn't expect the dev team to place any particular weight on what any one player or their friends have to say, yet on some level we feel they should cater to our own play styles. I hope they simultaneously develop of a vision and maintain some flexibility going forward. That is, try something long enough to see how it works but be ready to change direction or make exceptions when results (a.k.a. fun factor) call for it.

I thank Mr. Wheeler for sharing with us today and for his and the combat team's hard work. Some payers will always gripe and some will always cheer, so in the end I respect the team's ability to work under pressure and maintain the courage of their convictions.

---

OK, the rest of this is just "blah blah blah" about my opinions on class design and changes.These are all from my perspective, so I don't expect everyone else to see thing the same way or agree. Of course I'm a forum brick layers with years of building walls of texts, so even my brief reaction might get longish.

My own vanity list:

1. As per above on some skills seeming over-powered in a head to head comparison with a similar skill from another class, I'm in favor of imperfect symmetry. You can have that and still strive for better balance. This gets into class identity as well and concerns over things like homogenization. In my own preference, while a DK should be able to heal, it shouldn't be a clone of a Templar. The mechanics and animations should be distinct, with each bringing different strengths that reflect differing class fantasy. And some classes having an edge for some roles or approaches to roles can be OK. It makes the choice of class more meaningful.

2. Consider identifying/retaining or creating multiple categories and sub-types of of ability functions and delivery systems. This allows for enhanced class uniqueness (see #1) and game play choices, as there can be unique combinations: healing category 1, sub-type A, delivery method ii versus healing category 1 sub-type B, delivery method i versus healing category 1, subtype B, delivery method iii. Or go way out and change all three for something truly distinct (category 3, sub-type C, deliver method ii). This allows for some standardization but also uniqueness in the combinations themselves, plus whatever special sauce from passives are layered on top.

To stick with the above example, a DK might be better at certain types of heal types or delivery approaches than Templars, and vice versa. Templar might be a strong overall all-around healer, while other classes are more specialized (but still viable for all content at a basic level). Plus, not everything of course has to be baked into class skill lines to help classes with particular roles. For example, imagine a set that offers a buff to healing done when you do elemental damage. This would be great for Sorcs and DKs.

3. Please don't strip things down too far in removing functions from abilities. Having an ability offer more than one thing is fun for theorycrafting/more build options as well as gameplay feel.

4. Please don't reduce it "one source for X per class". Having *some* redundancy within a class is a good thing so people don't feel forced to slot certain things. Passives can help some here as well by offers "X" for some or all of a skill line rather than just a single skill.

That said, if there is a consistent vision for combat and for class identity (class fantasy and its execution in mechanics/animations) please favor the latter over the former when push comes to shove. And if an ability needs to be changed so much it loses it's iconic function/identity, my own preference would be to retire it and hype us with the new ability name/function/etc.

Here's hoping for a great start to the new era in combat development for ESO!

Agree. ^

Dojohoda

Much appreciated and the work sounds very analytical. Please try your best to keep the classes fun-to-play.

I'd like to put a word in for PVP Magblade ... halp!

ZarkingFrued

This game changes entirely once a year lol. If I want to play a different game I'd just go buy one. Still I'm going to be cautiously optimistic. Sounds like it COULD be great, but I get the feeling it's just gonna be another across the board nerf to solo players. Please tell me theres a rework on snares coming? They are unbearable

Edziu

xynode wrote: »

Dots being dots, direct damage being direct rather than over spamming cheap dots to gain damage from initial hits and having infinate sustain WITH high damage out put from something that was not designed to be used as such.

are we thinking about same skill?
if you could see as venom claw cheap "spammable" dot skill it have also very low tolltip at all in compare to every other normal good spammable

it is cheap like every other single target dot and pretty low initinal damage as mainly it is supposed to be dot but mainy because of cost-initinal damage in this skill i good people choose to use it as spammabel because every other possibilities for spammables are lame af, thats also reason why most players didnt like play class without class good spamamble because rapid strikes? please this skill is so bad, lame, just not nice to spam at all and crushing weapon? mwell nty, its even worse spammable in just design how it look

if they take away venom claw possibility to use as spammable on stamdk and redning slashes foir stamsorc and give nothing in this place for spammable skill..I will jsut stop playing my not so long ago leveld stamdk and go back to only templar with jabs (would also choose stamnb but Im still sick of playing stamnb and I just dont have hype to play warden which I woudl also choose to play which have very good class spammable in compare to stamsorc and stamdk without rend slashes and venom claw)

dazee

Brawler nerf ruins my main's build completely. 2h/DW just got even worse. Thanks ZOS!

gliant

whats LOT skill? increase dmg taken？

katorga

So Nightblade is getting wrecked this patch is that I take away from this.

Heimpai

katorga wrote: »

So Nightblade is getting wrecked this patch is that I take away from this.

Magblade is already underperforming in pvp

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

gliant wrote: »

whats LOT skill? increase dmg taken？

.Some abilities contained a LOT of functionality

This phrase just means a skill with multiple effects on it, more then the average skill, which only has 1 to 2 different effects. The OP just capitalized it do give "a lot" emphasis.

ccfeeling

Next NB nerf coming .

gliant

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

gliant wrote: »

whats LOT skill? increase dmg taken？

.Some abilities contained a LOT of functionality

This phrase just means a skill with multiple effects on it, more then the average skill, which only has 1 to 2 different effects. The OP just capitalized it do give "a lot" emphasis.

oh, lol ,ty.

gepe87

Better performance please. Lag is getting worse everyday.

Nicalas

dazee wrote: »

Brawler nerf ruins my main's build completely. 2h/DW just got even worse. Thanks ZOS!

They are buffing a nearly useless damage skill.

mateosalvaje

Is there any plan to continue the Soul skill line? It seems truncated at level 6 😕

jerrodbuffington

Can someone help me understand what he meant about the changes to single target dots please? Is he sayi g we will get the initial hit damage after the dot ticks?

I hate when they make big changes.

Destyran

So does this mean that classes are basically gonna be homogenised and will all be the same and do the same damage? Effectively removing the uniqueness of a class or making all classes bar one redundant for endgame?

citats

I think carve will need more than a 25% bleed damage increase to be anywhere close to the dw bleed ability....