RIP Dragonknight Wings

Datthaw

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

Lightning heavies with skoria and double dot poison with a stonefist meteor combo? I mean this thread likes to compare to magna so much so what does ranged do for maagnb? I have to get close to fear/soul harvest...

Edit, BTW I hate how this thread ties magnb to this conversation

You wont be able to get an unblocked Meteor against any decent Player so the Combo wont kill since skoria proc and stonefist Damage might get blocked too, I guess it would be nice pressure in Xv1.
Range for magblade gives pressure before having to go melee for fear/Soul Harvest and endless kiting against non mobile classes/builds without a gap Closer without placing yourself at much if any Risk and the ability to reset a fight which you do not want to fight by using your disengage Tools.
Also magblades brought themselves into this conversation (if with this conversation you mean the thread) to gloat at dks loosing the one ability they did not like playing against.

What pressure does magnb have rhat magdk doesnt? Cripple? Maybe once wings gets nerfed but that slow animation always gets reflected or dodged.

It's kinda lame to say stone fist will get blocked because magnb with reach and temp range ccs are also blockable.... seems like a weak argument....and with the cast delay on mercy, it's impossible to land a proper fear>soul harvest>mercy combo, any decent player will cc break and roll or shield before it all lands.

People honestly glorify magnb escape too much. Yeah shade is good and yeah cloak is good but they both have weaknesses. Cloak all it takes is 1 dude with a detect pot and you're pretty screwed. Shade is your life line, but you get 1 shot. You land a shade for distance then get gapclosed and snared that's gg. And for the people who I know will say "well why don't you Los your shade better" you don't always have that option, plus it's broken on y axis

Sanguinor2

Datthaw wrote: »

What pressure does magnb have rhat magdk doesnt? Cripple? Maybe once wings gets nerfed but that slow animation always gets reflected or dodged.

It's kinda lame to say stone fist will get blocked because magnb with reach and temp range ccs are also blockable.... seems like a weak argument....and with the cast delay on mercy, it's impossible to land a proper fear>soul harvest>mercy combo, any decent player will cc break and roll or shield before it all lands.

People honestly glorify magnb escape too much. Yeah shade is good and yeah cloak is good but they both have weaknesses. Cloak all it takes is 1 dude with a detect pot and you're pretty screwed. Shade is your life line, but you get 1 shot. You land a shade for distance then get gapclosed and snared that's gg. And for the people who I know will say "well why don't you Los your shade better" you don't always have that option, plus it's broken on y axis

To your first Point:
ranged execute, ranged spammable, ranged dot that also slows and snares, ranged burst ability that Forces dodge/block, passives that actually do something for ranged playstyle.
That is more ranged pressure than a dk has but this of Course is not wrong by any means since dk was not designed to be a ranged Damage threat at all. Just like a magdk will have more melee pressure than a magblade, which, you surely agree, isnt wrong either.

To your second Point:
Its actually Pretty realistic to say it, just because the same is true for other ranged ccs does not make it a weak Argument.

Lets go through what I do on my main (light armor magtemplar) when I see I get the Meteor rune under me in a 1v1: I swap to my Sword and Shield bar and cast rune while Blocking, I now have nearly capped spell resist in no cp, I cast purify to have a hot and if I have a dot or debuff on me like double dot poisons I get Major protection from steadfast hero on Sword and Shield bar, good luck killing that with Lightning heavy, double dot poisons, skoria, blocked Meteor and stonefist.
And if you were to cast stonefist first anyone will have broken free of it till the Meteor lands and can do block and hots all the same. I would argue that this defensive Rotation I do is something that is realistic enough to Show what other People would do in the same Situation obviously with different abilities and sets depending on class.

It just goes to Show that the Meteor Combo is only really strong in a 1v1 if you can guarantee that the Meteor will land unblocked aka old runecage, fossilize and fear to drop block and cc when the Meteor is About to Impact.

And yes the delay on merciless is too Long I agree, I would not mind that being shortened to give a more reliable burst back to magblade again.

And to your third Point:
Yes they have weaknesses, just like every ability does. And yes shade Always being bugged really sucks, if it were to work properly it would be way stronger I agree. Also yes you dont Always have the Option to place your shade how you want and yes the more People are involved the more difficult it becomes to disengage/Escape, but that is true regardless of class.

What this doesnt Change is that situationally a magblade still has one of the best if not the best disengage and ability to kite, I did not think that it would be necessary to say that this isnt true in all situations so missing that one is on me and you calling that out is good.
It also does not Change that between a magblade and a magdk the magblade will have higher chances of escaping an unfavorable Situation if we go with the comparison between These two again.

HankTwo

Changing wings from reflects to a flat projectile damage reduction would destroy a core aspect of the skill - the ability to prevent getting stunned and immobilized from range.

I do agree that current wings are OP in 1v1 situation against certain builds, namely ranged magnbs, magsorcs using master destro, and bow gank builds (even though I can't really take snipe spammers serious). The challenge to balance wings is to nerf them a bit in 1v1 while keeping their strength when facing multiple ranged opponents. Now, I'm not sure which number of reflects would make wings a skill thats both viable and balanced in duels against ranged builds. 3 reflects still seem a bit overwhelming, while 2 reflects might be too weak.

Nevertheless, I think a good change to wings would be to make them reflect 2 projectiles per person attacking the DK. Would be a harsh nerf in 1v1s, no significant change in case of a 1v2 (where I found wings to be rather balanced) and a buff when outnumbered greatly. I would like to hear what other players think about this proposal.

If ZOS however thinks that reflects don't have a place in this game anymore, then I'd rather see wings changed to a projectile deflect/absorb ability. Again, a flat damage reduction is both boring and would destroys the identity of this skill.

Sanguinor2

HankTwo wrote: »

Changing wings from reflects to a flat projectile damage reduction would destroy a core aspect of the skill - the ability to prevent getting stunned and immobilized from range.

I do agree that current wings are OP in 1v1 situation against certain builds, namely ranged magnbs, magsorcs using master destro, and bow gank builds (even though I can't really take snipe spammers serious). The challenge to balance wings is to nerf them a bit in 1v1 while keeping their strength when facing multiple ranged opponents. Now, I'm not sure which number of reflects would make wings a skill thats both viable and balanced in duels against ranged builds. 3 reflects still seem a bit overwhelming, while 2 reflects might be too weak.

Nevertheless, I think a good change to wings would be to make them reflect 2 projectiles per person attacking the DK. Would be a harsh nerf in 1v1s, no significant change in case of a 1v2 (where I found wings to be rather balanced) and a buff when outnumbered greatly. I would like to hear what other players think about this proposal.

If ZOS however thinks that reflects don't have a place in this game anymore, then I'd rather see wings changed to a projectile deflect/absorb ability. Again, a flat damage reduction is both boring and would destroys the identity of this skill.

Seems like something worth thinking About/testing out to me and I totally agree with saying that dk should not loose the reflect which is one of the last parts of class Identity left since the 1.5 onwards purges.

Datthaw

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

What pressure does magnb have rhat magdk doesnt? Cripple? Maybe once wings gets nerfed but that slow animation always gets reflected or dodged.

It's kinda lame to say stone fist will get blocked because magnb with reach and temp range ccs are also blockable.... seems like a weak argument....and with the cast delay on mercy, it's impossible to land a proper fear>soul harvest>mercy combo, any decent player will cc break and roll or shield before it all lands.

People honestly glorify magnb escape too much. Yeah shade is good and yeah cloak is good but they both have weaknesses. Cloak all it takes is 1 dude with a detect pot and you're pretty screwed. Shade is your life line, but you get 1 shot. You land a shade for distance then get gapclosed and snared that's gg. And for the people who I know will say "well why don't you Los your shade better" you don't always have that option, plus it's broken on y axis

To your first Point:
ranged execute, ranged spammable, ranged dot that also slows and snares, ranged burst ability that Forces dodge/block, passives that actually do something for ranged playstyle.
That is more ranged pressure than a dk has but this of Course is not wrong by any means since dk was not designed to be a ranged Damage threat at all. Just like a magdk will have more melee pressure than a magblade, which, you surely agree, isnt wrong either.

To your second Point:
Its actually Pretty realistic to say it, just because the same is true for other ranged ccs does not make it a weak Argument.

Lets go through what I do on my main (light armor magtemplar) when I see I get the Meteor rune under me in a 1v1: I swap to my Sword and Shield bar and cast rune while Blocking, I now have nearly capped spell resist in no cp, I cast purify to have a hot and if I have a dot or debuff on me like double dot poisons I get Major protection from steadfast hero on Sword and Shield bar, good luck killing that with Lightning heavy, double dot poisons, skoria, blocked Meteor and stonefist.
And if you were to cast stonefist first anyone will have broken free of it till the Meteor lands and can do block and hots all the same. I would argue that this defensive Rotation I do is something that is realistic enough to Show what other People would do in the same Situation obviously with different abilities and sets depending on class.

It just goes to Show that the Meteor Combo is only really strong in a 1v1 if you can guarantee that the Meteor will land unblocked aka old runecage, fossilize and fear to drop block and cc when the Meteor is About to Impact.

And yes the delay on merciless is too Long I agree, I would not mind that being shortened to give a more reliable burst back to magblade again.

And to your third Point:
Yes they have weaknesses, just like every ability does. And yes shade Always being bugged really sucks, if it were to work properly it would be way stronger I agree. Also yes you dont Always have the Option to place your shade how you want and yes the more People are involved the more difficult it becomes to disengage/Escape, but that is true regardless of class.

What this doesnt Change is that situationally a magblade still has one of the best if not the best disengage and ability to kite, I did not think that it would be necessary to say that this isnt true in all situations so missing that one is on me and you calling that out is good.
It also does not Change that between a magblade and a magdk the magblade will have higher chances of escaping an unfavorable Situation if we go with the comparison between These two again.

Yeah but all those ranged attacks you say we have are good on paper, but they get reflected as of now, absorbed, and roll dodged on the regular. There is a reason why a lot of magnb mains have to use concealed or force pulse because it's so easily countered. And I can't tell you how many times I get out shielded while impaling sorcs, stam toons just roll dodge vigor rally it. Like it's not exactly mages wrath.

I totally disagree that magnb is the best at disengage. Stam easily wins that battle of the nbs. Then even sorcs have better with streak both sorcs tbh, stam sorcs can streak once stun, shuffle rally and sprint into the sunset the little speedsters. Yeah dk is not exactly running like that, but, they do have a snare immunity now, and with either mist or chains actually pretty good mobility. I play magplar 2nd main and dk has more mobility than they do. Even my magplar with just mist I honestly feel have better mobility than my magnb at times.

Sanguinor2

Datthaw wrote: »

Yeah but all those ranged attacks you say we have are good on paper, but they get reflected as of now, absorbed, and roll dodged on the regular. There is a reason why a lot of magnb mains have to use concealed or force pulse because it's so easily countered. And I can't tell you how many times I get out shielded while impaling sorcs, stam toons just roll dodge vigor rally it. Like it's not exactly mages wrath.

I totally disagree that magnb is the best at disengage. Stam easily wins that battle of the nbs. Then even sorcs have better with streak both sorcs tbh, stam sorcs can streak once stun, shuffle rally and sprint into the sunset the little speedsters. Yeah dk is not exactly running like that, but, they do have a snare immunity now, and with either mist or chains actually pretty good mobility. I play magplar 2nd main and dk has more mobility than they do. Even my magplar with just mist I honestly feel have better mobility than my magnb at times.

The way you word it you could talk About every ability because every ability has counters and next to no ability is effective if it gets regulary dodgerolled or otherwise countered, so that is not something exclusive to magblade abilities, same with impale, mages wrath can get dodged, purged and outshielded too.

I will have to give the disengage to you partly at the very least. It Looks like I did overvalue shadow Image and cloak on its own and stamblade with plenty more dodgerolls, faster and more sprint and snare removal does indeed have better disengage. Note that the specs you list with better Escape Options are stam classes with an inherent mobility Advantage that retain the disengage Options of their mag Counterpart.

What I dont see is how chains is good mobility when you are trying to disengage, either pulling your target to yourself or pulling yourself to your target seems highly unproductive when you are trying to CREATE a gap and the mistform, wings Combo Costs 10k+ mag per use during which you wont regen mag and will not allow you to create big enough of a gap to Escape either sorc, any stam build or anything that has a gap Closer slotted or is ranged.

Same with magplar mistform, if multiple People chase you and you just want to get out mistform wont save you when you are alone unless your foes decide to not chase someone that only has Major Expedition and Nothing else and can still get slows on them.

Datthaw

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

Yeah but all those ranged attacks you say we have are good on paper, but they get reflected as of now, absorbed, and roll dodged on the regular. There is a reason why a lot of magnb mains have to use concealed or force pulse because it's so easily countered. And I can't tell you how many times I get out shielded while impaling sorcs, stam toons just roll dodge vigor rally it. Like it's not exactly mages wrath.

I totally disagree that magnb is the best at disengage. Stam easily wins that battle of the nbs. Then even sorcs have better with streak both sorcs tbh, stam sorcs can streak once stun, shuffle rally and sprint into the sunset the little speedsters. Yeah dk is not exactly running like that, but, they do have a snare immunity now, and with either mist or chains actually pretty good mobility. I play magplar 2nd main and dk has more mobility than they do. Even my magplar with just mist I honestly feel have better mobility than my magnb at times.

The way you word it you could talk About every ability because every ability has counters and next to no ability is effective if it gets regulary dodgerolled or otherwise countered, so that is not something exclusive to magblade abilities, same with impale, mages wrath can get dodged, purged and outshielded too.

I will have to give the disengage to you partly at the very least. It Looks like I did overvalue shadow Image and cloak on its own and stamblade with plenty more dodgerolls, faster and more sprint and snare removal does indeed have better disengage. Note that the specs you list with better Escape Options are stam classes with an inherent mobility Advantage that retain the disengage Options of their mag Counterpart.

What I dont see is how chains is good mobility when you are trying to disengage, either pulling your target to yourself or pulling yourself to your target seems highly unproductive when you are trying to CREATE a gap and the mistform, wings Combo Costs 10k+ mag per use during which you wont regen mag and will not allow you to create big enough of a gap to Escape either sorc, any stam build or anything that has a gap Closer slotted or is ranged.

Same with magplar mistform, if multiple People chase you and you just want to get out mistform wont save you when you are alone unless your foes decide to not chase someone that only has Major Expedition and Nothing else and can still get slows on them.

I'm jus saying with chains you can reposition. I have a stamdk buddy I play with and we like to troll rocks, I use shade to pull people down and get back up, he just chains the snipe spammer that stayed up top.

Sanguinor2

Datthaw wrote: »

I'm jus saying with chains you can reposition. I have a stamdk buddy I play with and we like to troll rocks, I use shade to pull people down and get back up, he just chains the snipe spammer that stayed up top.

That may be but it still remains a highly situational Reposition tool that you might be able to use in 1% of the situations where you are genuily trying to disengage a fight and is in General not a reliable move to leave a fight.

Datthaw

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

I'm jus saying with chains you can reposition. I have a stamdk buddy I play with and we like to troll rocks, I use shade to pull people down and get back up, he just chains the snipe spammer that stayed up top.

That may be but it still remains a highly situational Reposition tool that you might be able to use in 1% of the situations where you are genuily trying to disengage a fight and is in General not a reliable move to leave a fight.

I mean I can't even use shade in keeps atm. The only reliable disengage iis streak

Sanguinor2

Datthaw wrote: »

I mean I can't even use shade in keeps atm. The only reliable disengage iis streak

Yep, shadow Image being as regulary bugged as it is makes it a lot weaker than it could be which is a shame since that happens to quite a lot of abilities.

Xvorg

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

You could even argue that Magdks has the best options for ranged heavy attacks with their weapon buff

While magdk having the strongest ranged heavy attacks with armaments cast is true, what exactly does a ranged heavy attack build magdk do again in a pvp fight? Hope your enemy disconnects because otherwise no one is bad enough to die to one fire heavy attack every 3 seconds? Become a famous magdk ganker because one heavy attack from Stealth will totally oneshot People?

I had a build that used full heavy infused lit staff + knight slayer + torug's + oblivion glyph. It was quite good UNTIL ZoS nerfed healing ward, which was the back bar "oh, ***" button.

It was nice to burn NBs with it back in the day.

Anyway, though effective, the build was boring.

kaithuzar

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

The problem here is the outcome.
If you guys can add up all of the abilities & passives & your stance is that on paper nightblade has more advantages/is better...
Then why are there close to 0 magblades running in Cyrodiil, why is a good 30% of players in Cyrodiil a DK, & why does DK win 90%+ fights against magblade.

I’m just saying if magblades have “ALL THE ABOVE” & can’t win a fight either it’s not enough or something’s broken.

What I did was simply comparing cloak and wings Primary and secondary effects, what you are doing is trying to apply a singular ability to the complete class Performance and we both know that this is not how it works.

The reason that there is close to 0 magblades in cyro is indirect nerfs aka healing ward, snare meta, and direct nerfs because of 2 years of pve overperformance which were undone in a way that did not benefit pvp at all.

The reason why dks win most fights against magblades is that A: magblade got overnerfed from a pvp standpoint, and B that the only somewhat viable magblade builds get hardcountered by anything that hardcounters range.

But if we look strictly at 1v1 Im reasonably sure that in most dueling tournaments magdk won against magblade even with wings banned simply because magblade´s whole kit has suffered and dk as an inherently tanky class is not that easy to burst down which is what a magblade has to do for killing Blows. Add to that in dueling magblade cannot use disengage to its fullest potential because of limited dueling Zone and once in melee range dk can lock magblade down Pretty well unless preemptive shade was placed and you have your reasons.

All of this does not Change that one could say that cloak is indeed an overloaded ability if you compare it with others like it was tried with wings here.

And you should know all of this so I dont understand the Point you were trying to make.

You’re right, I do know those things. The points were:
1) Not everyone does
2) DK’s have often made the argument of how great the nightblade passives are & we should stop whining because we can’t win a fight because nightblade is really OP & it’s just a l2p issue...which I feel is imperative be called out as false.
(You may have not been taking this stance, but it flowed in that direction per how it read.)

Question:
Can chains be block casted so that you are never pulled to the target & so it becomes more reliable?

@Datthew
Nobody, including myself likes this conversation, but I feel it’s one of those crucial conversations that need to be had as it may very well dictate the next few years of gameplay for at least 2 classes.

Xvorg

wheem_ESO wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

What you are asking is to make wings multi tool that would allow not only to stay almost untouchable at distance, but also escape and engage tool, in general OP version of mist form without any drawbacks, thanks but no.

I still think that wings would be better if it would work only for skills casted from range greater than 8m, while changing it so 4 reflected projectiles are counted per player.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned a drastic cost increase? I'm fine with Magicka DKs having some improved mobility and better methods to engage/escape (though I think the gap closer morph of chains is overlooked more than it should be). The main problem making Wings overpowered right now is having such an extended uptime.

Your suggestion would help in some cases, but it'd basically make their escape from other Magicka builds a 100% guaranteed success, unless being zerged with mass Force Pulse and/or Cliff Racers. 'Course, my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion isn't perfect, either, since they'd still generally hard counter other Magicka builds in objective-mode Battlegrounds.

But even ZOS' (supposed) upcoming change isn't what's needed, IMO. A flat 50% damage reduction from projectiles, if it's anywhere near as spammable as the Wings are now, is going to be absurdly overpowered vs most other Magicka setups. Which means that we'll continue to have a situation where Magicka builds get hard countered by numerous different things, while Stam remains the king of small scale fights and Battlegrounds.

Bro, wings are 3780 magicka. Unless you have hella recov, who can sustain that? Mag DK sustain is already ass because 90% of its skills are expensive AF. Not to mention stam DK can use wings literally twice and be out of magicka.

Maybe you need to change your build up, or look at using different potions or something? I've seen a substantial amount of Wings spam in no-CP Battlegrounds (and Cyrodiil), including a pretty fair amount from some Stamina builds - certainly enough to put their target on the back foot, and usually keep them there. And that's why I made the suggestion that I did.

If the issue many of the DKs in this thread have with a change to Wings is that they believe it'll negatively affect their ability to close distance to their target, a big cost increase shouldn't matter all that much (don't try to chase down a Streaking Mag Sorc - no other non-Sorc can realistically do it, either). Where a cost increase will matter, for sure, is during the situation that I see so commonly now - a Mag DK sitting on top of another immobile Magicka spec, keeping Wings up often enough for it to basically hard counter their "victim," barring outside intervention.

Xvorg wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

If damage immunity is frowned upon then I see no reason as to why DOT damage should still be entirely mitigated by cloak.

I tend not to say anything about cloak, but wings are useless against any enemy with half a brain in the same way cloak is useless against any enemy with half a brain. The treatment ZoS is giving both skills amazes me, because one must be changed, while the other, despite the countless nerfs it has received, is still the same.

By the way, thinking about Necrosheet, they have some nasty options to feck any mDK in their kits. The only thing I think it could be reflectable is the skull and even that I doubt it... maybe it receives the racer's treatment. So there's no way DK wings will give any problem to ZoS new biutch

Wings are not nearly as easily countered as Cloak is. If I could drop a Wall of Elements on you to cancel out your Wings, you'd have a point. But no one is going to kill you with just Force Pulse or Cliff Racer spam. Imagine trying to kill people with only your Whip; no light attacks, no enchant or poison procs, no DOTs, and no +25% damage from your target being a Vampire. If that's your restriction, and your opponent is free to use their entire toolkit against you, what do you think your chances of coming out on top are?

You sure? Because more than half the server counter wings on melee (stamplar, stamden, stamDKs, Stamblades, Stamsorcs, magplar other mDKs). TBH, wings counter only one skill in the magsorc kit (not counting Oversheet) and almost all the kit in the magblade kit, but putting them in a position that it is uncounterable just because people want's to pew pew a DK form 41 mts seems reditculous.

What you are proposing is a class that can't counter any ranged build, but don't worry, ZoS agrees with your logic, so no need to come here to put more salt on the wound.

Xvorg

Datthaw wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

You could even argue that Magdks has the best options for ranged heavy attacks with their weapon buff

While magdk having the strongest ranged heavy attacks with armaments cast is true, what exactly does a ranged heavy attack build magdk do again in a pvp fight? Hope your enemy disconnects because otherwise no one is bad enough to die to one fire heavy attack every 3 seconds? Become a famous magdk ganker because one heavy attack from Stealth will totally oneshot People?

Lightning heavies with skoria and double dot poison with a stonefist meteor combo? I mean this thread likes to compare to magna so much so what does ranged do for maagnb? I have to get close to fear/soul harvest...

Edit, BTW I hate how this thread ties magnb to this conversation

It doesn't do huge dmg against any decent player. It is good to hunt down medium armor NBs, but agains't the rest of the server is just meh.

In theory seems a good buils (and it was quite good before nerfmire), In practice is just meh.

Xvorg

Datthaw wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

Lightning heavies with skoria and double dot poison with a stonefist meteor combo? I mean this thread likes to compare to magna so much so what does ranged do for maagnb? I have to get close to fear/soul harvest...

Edit, BTW I hate how this thread ties magnb to this conversation

You wont be able to get an unblocked Meteor against any decent Player so the Combo wont kill since skoria proc and stonefist Damage might get blocked too, I guess it would be nice pressure in Xv1.
Range for magblade gives pressure before having to go melee for fear/Soul Harvest and endless kiting against non mobile classes/builds without a gap Closer without placing yourself at much if any Risk and the ability to reset a fight which you do not want to fight by using your disengage Tools.
Also magblades brought themselves into this conversation (if with this conversation you mean the thread) to gloat at dks loosing the one ability they did not like playing against.

What pressure does magnb have rhat magdk doesnt? Cripple? Maybe once wings gets nerfed but that slow animation always gets reflected or dodged.

It's kinda lame to say stone fist will get blocked because magnb with reach and temp range ccs are also blockable.... seems like a weak argument....and with the cast delay on mercy, it's impossible to land a proper fear>soul harvest>mercy combo, any decent player will cc break and roll or shield before it all lands.

People honestly glorify magnb escape too much. Yeah shade is good and yeah cloak is good but they both have weaknesses. Cloak all it takes is 1 dude with a detect pot and you're pretty screwed. Shade is your life line, but you get 1 shot. You land a shade for distance then get gapclosed and snared that's gg. And for the people who I know will say "well why don't you Los your shade better" you don't always have that option, plus it's broken on y axis

IT IS JUST ONE CLASS!!!

Sorry, but you are talking like in mDKs is the root of all what's wrong with mageblade, which is far from thruth. Mageblade is in a very bad position, so you want DKs to be nerfed? Will a wings nerf solve Mageblade problems? You will still be *** against any melee stam build.

Please, stop, you are neither doing anything good for NBs or DKs.

Sanguinor2

kaithuzar wrote: »

You’re right, I do know those things. The points were:
1) Not everyone does
2) DK’s have often made the argument of how great the nightblade passives are & we should stop whining because we can’t win a fight because nightblade is really OP & it’s just a l2p issue...which I feel is imperative be called out as false.
(You may have not been taking this stance, but it flowed in that direction per how it read.)

Question:
Can chains be block casted so that you are never pulled to the target & so it becomes more reliable?

@Datthew
Nobody, including myself likes this conversation, but I feel it’s one of those crucial conversations that need to be had as it may very well dictate the next few years of gameplay for at least 2 classes.

Well first of all thanks for clarifying.
I dont think that magblade is close to being in a good spot and that not Winning a 1v1 against a magdk is l2p issue especially if both are equally skilled. I did not want to Sound like I think so either so if I did do know that this is not my opinion and I agree with magblades needing help.
I just dont think that that help is nerfing 1 counter because that will not Change anything against shimmering or absorb magic or other range counters and Im sure you think so too, you are just understandably frustrated when playing against wings.
To your Question: It is not something I have actively tried to test but I do very much doubt it.

Xvorg

HankTwo wrote: »

Changing wings from reflects to a flat projectile damage reduction would destroy a core aspect of the skill - the ability to prevent getting stunned and immobilized from range.

I do agree that current wings are OP in 1v1 situation against certain builds, namely ranged magnbs, magsorcs using master destro, and bow gank builds (even though I can't really take snipe spammers serious). The challenge to balance wings is to nerf them a bit in 1v1 while keeping their strength when facing multiple ranged opponents. Now, I'm not sure which number of reflects would make wings a skill thats both viable and balanced in duels against ranged builds. 3 reflects still seem a bit overwhelming, while 2 reflects might be too weak.

Nevertheless, I think a good change to wings would be to make them reflect 2 projectiles per person attacking the DK. Would be a harsh nerf in 1v1s, no significant change in case of a 1v2 (where I found wings to be rather balanced) and a buff when outnumbered greatly. I would like to hear what other players think about this proposal.

If ZOS however thinks that reflects don't have a place in this game anymore, then I'd rather see wings changed to a projectile deflect/absorb ability. Again, a flat damage reduction is both boring and would destroys the identity of this skill.

Then the problem will be S/B reflects, unless they nerf them too. Oh, and Templar's Eclipse...

Sanguinor2

Xvorg wrote: »

Then the problem will be S/B reflects, unless they nerf them too. Oh, and Templar's Eclipse...

Templars eclipse is completely l2p tho, just break it like you would break other cc, the biggest offender if wings reflect is gone will be shimmering Shield and S&B ult. But your Sentiment is Right, magblade being weak doesnt Change if reflect doesnt hardcounter them anymore.

wheem_ESO

Xvorg wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

What you are asking is to make wings multi tool that would allow not only to stay almost untouchable at distance, but also escape and engage tool, in general OP version of mist form without any drawbacks, thanks but no.

I still think that wings would be better if it would work only for skills casted from range greater than 8m, while changing it so 4 reflected projectiles are counted per player.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned a drastic cost increase? I'm fine with Magicka DKs having some improved mobility and better methods to engage/escape (though I think the gap closer morph of chains is overlooked more than it should be). The main problem making Wings overpowered right now is having such an extended uptime.

Your suggestion would help in some cases, but it'd basically make their escape from other Magicka builds a 100% guaranteed success, unless being zerged with mass Force Pulse and/or Cliff Racers. 'Course, my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion isn't perfect, either, since they'd still generally hard counter other Magicka builds in objective-mode Battlegrounds.

But even ZOS' (supposed) upcoming change isn't what's needed, IMO. A flat 50% damage reduction from projectiles, if it's anywhere near as spammable as the Wings are now, is going to be absurdly overpowered vs most other Magicka setups. Which means that we'll continue to have a situation where Magicka builds get hard countered by numerous different things, while Stam remains the king of small scale fights and Battlegrounds.

Bro, wings are 3780 magicka. Unless you have hella recov, who can sustain that? Mag DK sustain is already ass because 90% of its skills are expensive AF. Not to mention stam DK can use wings literally twice and be out of magicka.

Maybe you need to change your build up, or look at using different potions or something? I've seen a substantial amount of Wings spam in no-CP Battlegrounds (and Cyrodiil), including a pretty fair amount from some Stamina builds - certainly enough to put their target on the back foot, and usually keep them there. And that's why I made the suggestion that I did.

If the issue many of the DKs in this thread have with a change to Wings is that they believe it'll negatively affect their ability to close distance to their target, a big cost increase shouldn't matter all that much (don't try to chase down a Streaking Mag Sorc - no other non-Sorc can realistically do it, either). Where a cost increase will matter, for sure, is during the situation that I see so commonly now - a Mag DK sitting on top of another immobile Magicka spec, keeping Wings up often enough for it to basically hard counter their "victim," barring outside intervention.

Xvorg wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

If damage immunity is frowned upon then I see no reason as to why DOT damage should still be entirely mitigated by cloak.

I tend not to say anything about cloak, but wings are useless against any enemy with half a brain in the same way cloak is useless against any enemy with half a brain. The treatment ZoS is giving both skills amazes me, because one must be changed, while the other, despite the countless nerfs it has received, is still the same.

By the way, thinking about Necrosheet, they have some nasty options to feck any mDK in their kits. The only thing I think it could be reflectable is the skull and even that I doubt it... maybe it receives the racer's treatment. So there's no way DK wings will give any problem to ZoS new biutch

Wings are not nearly as easily countered as Cloak is. If I could drop a Wall of Elements on you to cancel out your Wings, you'd have a point. But no one is going to kill you with just Force Pulse or Cliff Racer spam. Imagine trying to kill people with only your Whip; no light attacks, no enchant or poison procs, no DOTs, and no +25% damage from your target being a Vampire. If that's your restriction, and your opponent is free to use their entire toolkit against you, what do you think your chances of coming out on top are?

You sure? Because more than half the server counter wings on melee (stamplar, stamden, stamDKs, Stamblades, Stamsorcs, magplar other mDKs). TBH, wings counter only one skill in the magsorc kit (not counting Oversheet) and almost all the kit in the magblade kit, but putting them in a position that it is uncounterable just because people want's to pew pew a DK form 41 mts seems reditculous.

What you are proposing is a class that can't counter any ranged build, but don't worry, ZoS agrees with your logic, so no need to come here to put more salt on the wound.

Yes, I'm sure. Those Stamina builds can indeed ignore Wings - which, as I've said before, is one of the reasons it needs to be changed. The gap between Magicka and Stamina can't be narrowed sufficiently as long as there are spammable hard counters like this in place. Those same Stamina builds that can ignore your wings (except for the snare/root immunity portion, I suppose) also get counters for Cloak...Stamina Sorcerer especially.

Magicka builds also have some anti-Cloak options (though Wall of Elements is generally less effective in Cyrodiil than it is in Battlegrounds), but the same isn't true for Wings. A Mag Sorc's "one skill" that gets reflected is absolutely crucial to their ability to kill someone (and it's certainly more than 1 skill if they're using a Master's Staff, or Elemental Weapon as a spammable). They're simply not going to kill you with nothing but Curse and Force Pulse.

But don't worry, if the currently rumored changes go through, you're going to be just fine vs ranged builds. In fact, you'll probably be significantly more survivable against them than you are now, especially if outnumbered. A full 50% damage reduction against all projectiles (presumably even ones that aren't reflectable now, like Cliff Racers), which stacks with all your other forms of mitigation and lasts for 6 seconds with no limitation of "charges," is going to be immensely powerful, and keep things slanted heavily in favor of Stamina over Magicka.

Do you have any idea what I'd be willing to give up to have a spammable buff that would give me 6 seconds of an extra 50% damage reduction against melee?

Datthaw

Xvorg wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

Lightning heavies with skoria and double dot poison with a stonefist meteor combo? I mean this thread likes to compare to magna so much so what does ranged do for maagnb? I have to get close to fear/soul harvest...

Edit, BTW I hate how this thread ties magnb to this conversation

You wont be able to get an unblocked Meteor against any decent Player so the Combo wont kill since skoria proc and stonefist Damage might get blocked too, I guess it would be nice pressure in Xv1.
Range for magblade gives pressure before having to go melee for fear/Soul Harvest and endless kiting against non mobile classes/builds without a gap Closer without placing yourself at much if any Risk and the ability to reset a fight which you do not want to fight by using your disengage Tools.
Also magblades brought themselves into this conversation (if with this conversation you mean the thread) to gloat at dks loosing the one ability they did not like playing against.

What pressure does magnb have rhat magdk doesnt? Cripple? Maybe once wings gets nerfed but that slow animation always gets reflected or dodged.

It's kinda lame to say stone fist will get blocked because magnb with reach and temp range ccs are also blockable.... seems like a weak argument....and with the cast delay on mercy, it's impossible to land a proper fear>soul harvest>mercy combo, any decent player will cc break and roll or shield before it all lands.

People honestly glorify magnb escape too much. Yeah shade is good and yeah cloak is good but they both have weaknesses. Cloak all it takes is 1 dude with a detect pot and you're pretty screwed. Shade is your life line, but you get 1 shot. You land a shade for distance then get gapclosed and snared that's gg. And for the people who I know will say "well why don't you Los your shade better" you don't always have that option, plus it's broken on y axis

IT IS JUST ONE CLASS!!!

Sorry, but you are talking like in mDKs is the root of all what's wrong with mageblade, which is far from thruth. Mageblade is in a very bad position, so you want DKs to be nerfed? Will a wings nerf solve Mageblade problems? You will still be *** against any melee stam build.

Please, stop, you are neither doing anything good for NBs or DKs.

At the time me and sanguinor were just talking about dk vs nb

Xvorg

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

What you are asking is to make wings multi tool that would allow not only to stay almost untouchable at distance, but also escape and engage tool, in general OP version of mist form without any drawbacks, thanks but no.

I still think that wings would be better if it would work only for skills casted from range greater than 8m, while changing it so 4 reflected projectiles are counted per player.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned a drastic cost increase? I'm fine with Magicka DKs having some improved mobility and better methods to engage/escape (though I think the gap closer morph of chains is overlooked more than it should be). The main problem making Wings overpowered right now is having such an extended uptime.

Your suggestion would help in some cases, but it'd basically make their escape from other Magicka builds a 100% guaranteed success, unless being zerged with mass Force Pulse and/or Cliff Racers. 'Course, my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion isn't perfect, either, since they'd still generally hard counter other Magicka builds in objective-mode Battlegrounds.

But even ZOS' (supposed) upcoming change isn't what's needed, IMO. A flat 50% damage reduction from projectiles, if it's anywhere near as spammable as the Wings are now, is going to be absurdly overpowered vs most other Magicka setups. Which means that we'll continue to have a situation where Magicka builds get hard countered by numerous different things, while Stam remains the king of small scale fights and Battlegrounds.

Bro, wings are 3780 magicka. Unless you have hella recov, who can sustain that? Mag DK sustain is already ass because 90% of its skills are expensive AF. Not to mention stam DK can use wings literally twice and be out of magicka.

Maybe you need to change your build up, or look at using different potions or something? I've seen a substantial amount of Wings spam in no-CP Battlegrounds (and Cyrodiil), including a pretty fair amount from some Stamina builds - certainly enough to put their target on the back foot, and usually keep them there. And that's why I made the suggestion that I did.

If the issue many of the DKs in this thread have with a change to Wings is that they believe it'll negatively affect their ability to close distance to their target, a big cost increase shouldn't matter all that much (don't try to chase down a Streaking Mag Sorc - no other non-Sorc can realistically do it, either). Where a cost increase will matter, for sure, is during the situation that I see so commonly now - a Mag DK sitting on top of another immobile Magicka spec, keeping Wings up often enough for it to basically hard counter their "victim," barring outside intervention.

Xvorg wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

If damage immunity is frowned upon then I see no reason as to why DOT damage should still be entirely mitigated by cloak.

I tend not to say anything about cloak, but wings are useless against any enemy with half a brain in the same way cloak is useless against any enemy with half a brain. The treatment ZoS is giving both skills amazes me, because one must be changed, while the other, despite the countless nerfs it has received, is still the same.

By the way, thinking about Necrosheet, they have some nasty options to feck any mDK in their kits. The only thing I think it could be reflectable is the skull and even that I doubt it... maybe it receives the racer's treatment. So there's no way DK wings will give any problem to ZoS new biutch

Wings are not nearly as easily countered as Cloak is. If I could drop a Wall of Elements on you to cancel out your Wings, you'd have a point. But no one is going to kill you with just Force Pulse or Cliff Racer spam. Imagine trying to kill people with only your Whip; no light attacks, no enchant or poison procs, no DOTs, and no +25% damage from your target being a Vampire. If that's your restriction, and your opponent is free to use their entire toolkit against you, what do you think your chances of coming out on top are?

You sure? Because more than half the server counter wings on melee (stamplar, stamden, stamDKs, Stamblades, Stamsorcs, magplar other mDKs). TBH, wings counter only one skill in the magsorc kit (not counting Oversheet) and almost all the kit in the magblade kit, but putting them in a position that it is uncounterable just because people want's to pew pew a DK form 41 mts seems reditculous.

What you are proposing is a class that can't counter any ranged build, but don't worry, ZoS agrees with your logic, so no need to come here to put more salt on the wound.

Yes, I'm sure. Those Stamina builds can indeed ignore Wings - which, as I've said before, is one of the reasons it needs to be changed. The gap between Magicka and Stamina can't be narrowed sufficiently as long as there are spammable hard counters like this in place. Those same Stamina builds that can ignore your wings (except for the snare/root immunity portion, I suppose) also get counters for Cloak...Stamina Sorcerer especially.

Magicka builds also have some anti-Cloak options (though Wall of Elements is generally less effective in Cyrodiil than it is in Battlegrounds), but the same isn't true for Wings. A Mag Sorc's "one skill" that gets reflected is absolutely crucial to their ability to kill someone (and it's certainly more than 1 skill if they're using a Master's Staff, or Elemental Weapon as a spammable). They're simply not going to kill you with nothing but Curse and Force Pulse.

But don't worry, if the currently rumored changes go through, you're going to be just fine vs ranged builds. In fact, you'll probably be significantly more survivable against them than you are now, especially if outnumbered. A full 50% damage reduction against all projectiles (presumably even ones that aren't reflectable now, like Cliff Racers), which stacks with all your other forms of mitigation and lasts for 6 seconds with no limitation of "charges," is going to be immensely powerful, and keep things slanted heavily in favor of Stamina over Magicka.

Do you have any idea what I'd be willing to give up to have a spammable buff that would give me 6 seconds of an extra 50% damage reduction against melee?

Hmm far from truth. Currently there's a 50% dmg reduction on every attack in Cyro and that doesn't prevent snipes over 12k. With the change those snipes will be 6K, then nothing prevents a bunch of NBs snipping you from +41 mts and wrecking you despite the dmg reduction. I mean, if I want to *** hard any DK, that's exactly what I will do.

And that's just because people never learnt how to use wing's counters.

grannas211

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

What you are asking is to make wings multi tool that would allow not only to stay almost untouchable at distance, but also escape and engage tool, in general OP version of mist form without any drawbacks, thanks but no.

I still think that wings would be better if it would work only for skills casted from range greater than 8m, while changing it so 4 reflected projectiles are counted per player.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned a drastic cost increase? I'm fine with Magicka DKs having some improved mobility and better methods to engage/escape (though I think the gap closer morph of chains is overlooked more than it should be). The main problem making Wings overpowered right now is having such an extended uptime.

Your suggestion would help in some cases, but it'd basically make their escape from other Magicka builds a 100% guaranteed success, unless being zerged with mass Force Pulse and/or Cliff Racers. 'Course, my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion isn't perfect, either, since they'd still generally hard counter other Magicka builds in objective-mode Battlegrounds.

But even ZOS' (supposed) upcoming change isn't what's needed, IMO. A flat 50% damage reduction from projectiles, if it's anywhere near as spammable as the Wings are now, is going to be absurdly overpowered vs most other Magicka setups. Which means that we'll continue to have a situation where Magicka builds get hard countered by numerous different things, while Stam remains the king of small scale fights and Battlegrounds.

Bro, wings are 3780 magicka. Unless you have hella recov, who can sustain that? Mag DK sustain is already ass because 90% of its skills are expensive AF. Not to mention stam DK can use wings literally twice and be out of magicka.

Cloak also cost 3780 magicka and only lasts 3 secs, yet according to other classes all NB are perma cloaked

Unless you are 1v1ing, wings won't even last a second if there is more than one enemy. That *** will legit drop the moment the skill is cast. As for the perma cloak thing, they are.

Well, then you appreciate the change since wings will last the full duration then, right?

I'd appreciate if my favorite class wasn't f u c k i n g trash outside of tanking.

imagine thinking Stam DK was trash

Ragnarock41

Knootewoot wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

What you are asking is to make wings multi tool that would allow not only to stay almost untouchable at distance, but also escape and engage tool, in general OP version of mist form without any drawbacks, thanks but no.

I still think that wings would be better if it would work only for skills casted from range greater than 8m, while changing it so 4 reflected projectiles are counted per player.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned a drastic cost increase? I'm fine with Magicka DKs having some improved mobility and better methods to engage/escape (though I think the gap closer morph of chains is overlooked more than it should be). The main problem making Wings overpowered right now is having such an extended uptime.

Your suggestion would help in some cases, but it'd basically make their escape from other Magicka builds a 100% guaranteed success, unless being zerged with mass Force Pulse and/or Cliff Racers. 'Course, my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion isn't perfect, either, since they'd still generally hard counter other Magicka builds in objective-mode Battlegrounds.

But even ZOS' (supposed) upcoming change isn't what's needed, IMO. A flat 50% damage reduction from projectiles, if it's anywhere near as spammable as the Wings are now, is going to be absurdly overpowered vs most other Magicka setups. Which means that we'll continue to have a situation where Magicka builds get hard countered by numerous different things, while Stam remains the king of small scale fights and Battlegrounds.

Bro, wings are 3780 magicka. Unless you have hella recov, who can sustain that? Mag DK sustain is already ass because 90% of its skills are expensive AF. Not to mention stam DK can use wings literally twice and be out of magicka.

Cloak also cost 3780 magicka and only lasts 3 secs, yet according to other classes all NB are perma cloaked

Magicka upkeep of a Dk and Nb aren't the same. Dk has to keep up spiked armor+fragmented shield and those two are just minimum. Stuff like petrify, FoO, wings are only adding to this.

Have to keep it up? That's just personal choice/wish.

As a magblade I have to keep up cloak for its passives, I have to keep up my harness magicka for defence, I have to keep up merciless resolve for the bow proc, I have to keep up mirage for defence and aoe protection.

Edit: At a minimum. And then I need to attack also with skills that are being reflected.

Is it personal wish to keep up marginal buffs which Nb gets to have for free? This is nightblade bias at its finest. Then again I don't expect a nightblade main to understand the importance of keeping up buffs in a fight.

kaithuzar

@Ragnarock41 ,

Rather than continuously quoting a conversation around 6 different people, do you care to provide specific references to your comment; or should I not expect that coming from a DK?

Examples:
"Is it personal wish to keep up marginal buffs which Nb gets to have for free?"
Are you saying nightblade buffs are marginal, dk buffs, or both? IF the buffs are "marginal", then yes, it is "personal preference".

"This is nightblade bias at its finest."
What comment(s) specifically makes you state this?

"Then again I don't expect a nightblade main to understand the importance of keeping up buffs in a fight."
If you're going to be snarky/demeaning expect a comment like my opening one, right back at you.

JamilaRaj

Jesus. Why is that? Wheeler snipe spammed himself to death? Or necro is going to have some OP projectiles?

Minalan

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Jesus. Why is that? Wheeler snipe spammed himself to death? Or necro is going to have some OP projectiles?

I think the reflect was just too much given how much healing MDK can do. This change still gives you practical ranged immunity with the right setup.

wheem_ESO

Xvorg wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

But don't worry, if the currently rumored changes go through, you're going to be just fine vs ranged builds. In fact, you'll probably be significantly more survivable against them than you are now, especially if outnumbered. A full 50% damage reduction against all projectiles (presumably even ones that aren't reflectable now, like Cliff Racers), which stacks with all your other forms of mitigation and lasts for 6 seconds with no limitation of "charges," is going to be immensely powerful, and keep things slanted heavily in favor of Stamina over Magicka.

Hmm far from truth. Currently there's a 50% dmg reduction on every attack in Cyro and that doesn't prevent snipes over 12k. With the change those snipes will be 6K, then nothing prevents a bunch of NBs snipping you from +41 mts and wrecking you despite the dmg reduction. I mean, if I want to *** hard any DK, that's exactly what I will do.

And that's just because people never learnt how to use wing's counters.

Is your argument that Snipe is too powerful, therefore DKs need Wings to keep the reflect, and everyone who doesn't have access to Wings can just go pound sand? That doesn't sound like a very good way to balance the game. And if you have a "bunch" of players attacking you at the same time, shouldn't you either die, or at least be forced to do more than spam 1 button?

I know some people aren't able to recognize it right now, but 50% damage reduction for 6 seconds - which can be spammed - is incredibly powerful (to the point that it's still going to be overpowered, unless other changes to the game make a huge impact somehow). And since so many other Magicka builds are forced to run Vampire if they want any mobility whatsoever, you'll be getting +25% damage to them while they're getting -50% on many of their attacks against you.

Like I asked before, do you know what I'd be willing to give up in order to get a Wings-like buff that works against melee instead of ranged? Stamina builds tend to be far more dangerous to me than Magicka ones are, yet all the hard counters out there only affect the latter and not the former. I almost never even use Shimmering Shield, despite the fact that it's overpowered against most Magicka builds...but if there were an anti-melee morph available I'd be all over it.

ellahellabella

It's a very depressing time when those that support the nerf of a DK's signature skill are mostly mageblades.
Mageblades who have cried for a skill or two to be non reflectable so they can at least pressure a reflect spammer for years. And because they have been ignored, they celebrate the removal of reflect.

I remember the amount of whispers I got on my mdk when a magblade would try me. I agreed everytime as do so many other dks that magblade NEEDS attention for pvp improvement. This change isn't magblade attention, they're still going to have a rough time with wardens.

As for sorcs on here complaining about fighting dks with a master destro, I play a master destro set up on my sorc. When ever I face a mag dk, I just get more creative. Count the wings out for a burst, combo the curse with the attro stun just before wings expires... I can normally win unless I'm fighting a tanky dk (who can't get past my shields, so they're obviously frustrated in turn my dudes) or a good player. And well, a good player will be a challenge anytime.

...Well, unless they're a mageblade fighting a mDK. RIP

Knootewoot

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Is it personal wish to keep up marginal buffs which Nb gets to have for free? This is nightblade bias at its finest. Then again I don't expect a nightblade main to understand the importance of keeping up buffs in a fight.

I really think you only look at stamblades, who synergize cloak very well with medium armor passives to a point it seems OP. Combine that with the very strong suprise attack, or the 2-handed skill execute, or people spamming bow from a distance and dodge roll your attacks and with bow equipped and cloak and they are gone.

But we are talking about magblade. You know, the little cockroaches you stomp under your take-flight boots and which you /laugh at when they try cast cripple and swallow soul which get reflected. And then you tell them, while rubbing your hands, that they should slot counters to wings like concealed weapon so you can stomp under your take-flight boots or fore-pulse so they can do minimal damage to you.

And what buffs save the magNB then? Cloak to get away while casting fossilize or drinking detectpotion? Shadow image, which bugs out with 1 inch floot height difference? Any shield with 4k damage abosorption equivalent to a light attack?

Really, i don't want nerfs.... i want them to help magblade. Make cripple unreflectable and give them some other tools to aid them. But nope... we also get another nerf on top of that.

Sanguinor2

Knootewoot wrote: »

I really think you only look at stamblades, who synergize cloak very well with medium armor passives to a point it seems OP. Combine that with the very strong suprise attack, or the 2-handed skill execute, or people spamming bow from a distance and dodge roll your attacks and with bow equipped and cloak and they are gone.

But we are talking about magblade. You know, the little cockroaches you stomp under your take-flight boots and which you /laugh at when they try cast cripple and swallow soul which get reflected. And then you tell them, while rubbing your hands, that they should slot counters to wings like concealed weapon so you can stomp under your take-flight boots or fore-pulse so they can do minimal damage to you.

And what buffs save the magNB then? Cloak to get away while casting fossilize or drinking detectpotion? Shadow image, which bugs out with 1 inch floot height difference? Any shield with 4k damage abosorption equivalent to a light attack?

Really, i don't want nerfs.... i want them to help magblade. Make cripple unreflectable and give them some other tools to aid them. But nope... we also get another nerf on top of that.

Totally agreed, as someone that doesnt want wings to loose reflect its nice to actually see People in here that realized that changing wings helps magblade only in exactly one Situation: Fighting a mdk. And absolutely Nothing else. Magblade Needs help, nerfing/changing one counter is not the help magblade Needs.
Yes Fighting against wings is frustrating if you are a magblade, but if wings get changed you will still be left with a weak class that took a number of nerfs that were not needed in PvP because they were too strong in PvE. All this will do is make you think that you are stronger when in reality you are not. And running into one warden will Show you that very handily. Then we will have the next outcry on our Hands.
Really, what do magblades think is the better solution: Nerf every counter one at a time and still be left with a class that is weak?
Or help magblade in a way that gives them ways to Play around counters, give them Options, better healing or defense, less avoidable burst with that insanely Long time between bow Shooting and bow hitting, something that makes them be strong even when faced with something that counters part of their build. Not all class abilities being reflectable. Anything that helps magblade be stronger and not perceived Solutions that make some think it helps your class Overall when it does not.