RIP Dragonknight Wings

Demra

Trancestor wrote: »

Magdks complaining about having bad mobility when theyre the only mag class that has a snare removal in their kit lul, try playing a magplar or magden without mistform or worst of all a magblade.

You understand that mDK is a melee class unlike magplar, magden and magblade, right? mDK cannot use range the same way other magika users can so they need the extra mobility.

kaithuzar

Demra wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

Magdks complaining about having bad mobility when theyre the only mag class that has a snare removal in their kit lul, try playing a magplar or magden without mistform or worst of all a magblade.

You understand that mDK is a melee class unlike magplar, magden and magblade, right? mDK cannot use range the same way other magika users can so they need the extra mobility.

That’s not entirely correct.
Dk can use force pulls & flame staff weave just like everyone else.

Also, any of those magic classes can equip a 2h sword for forward momentum & become “a melee class”.

Toc de Malsvi

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

What you are asking is to make wings multi tool that would allow not only to stay almost untouchable at distance, but also escape and engage tool, in general OP version of mist form without any drawbacks, thanks but no.

I still think that wings would be better if it would work only for skills casted from range greater than 8m, while changing it so 4 reflected projectiles are counted per player.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned a drastic cost increase? I'm fine with Magicka DKs having some improved mobility and better methods to engage/escape (though I think the gap closer morph of chains is overlooked more than it should be). The main problem making Wings overpowered right now is having such an extended uptime.

Your suggestion would help in some cases, but it'd basically make their escape from other Magicka builds a 100% guaranteed success, unless being zerged with mass Force Pulse and/or Cliff Racers. 'Course, my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion isn't perfect, either, since they'd still generally hard counter other Magicka builds in objective-mode Battlegrounds.

But even ZOS' (supposed) upcoming change isn't what's needed, IMO. A flat 50% damage reduction from projectiles, if it's anywhere near as spammable as the Wings are now, is going to be absurdly overpowered vs most other Magicka setups. Which means that we'll continue to have a situation where Magicka builds get hard countered by numerous different things, while Stam remains the king of small scale fights and Battlegrounds.

Bro, wings are 3780 magicka. Unless you have hella recov, who can sustain that? Mag DK sustain is already ass because 90% of its skills are expensive AF. Not to mention stam DK can use wings literally twice and be out of magicka.

Cloak also cost 3780 magicka and only lasts 3 secs, yet according to other classes all NB are perma cloaked

Unless you are 1v1ing, wings won't even last a second if there is more than one enemy. That *** will legit drop the moment the skill is cast. As for the perma cloak thing, they are.

Which, according to your own argument would make the change better for everything except dualing.

In duals instead if 100% mitigation to projectiles that needs to be cast every 3-4 seconds, you have 50% mitigation that stays for 6. Which saves you magicka for more heals/damage, and opportunity cost for another skill cast.

Janoy

Not that this suggestion is a direct answer to the wings change but does anyone think ZoS should allow FOO/Cauterize to act as a pet to proc necropotence? Just a thought.

Demra

kaithuzar wrote: »

Demra wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

Magdks complaining about having bad mobility when theyre the only mag class that has a snare removal in their kit lul, try playing a magplar or magden without mistform or worst of all a magblade.

You understand that mDK is a melee class unlike magplar, magden and magblade, right? mDK cannot use range the same way other magika users can so they need the extra mobility.

That’s not entirely correct.
Dk can use force pulls & flame staff weave just like everyone else.

Also, any of those magic classes can equip a 2h sword for forward momentum & become “a melee class”.

Yeah youre right, and technically magplar using jabs can also count as melee class. I stand corrected.

Ragnarock41

Knootewoot wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

What you are asking is to make wings multi tool that would allow not only to stay almost untouchable at distance, but also escape and engage tool, in general OP version of mist form without any drawbacks, thanks but no.

I still think that wings would be better if it would work only for skills casted from range greater than 8m, while changing it so 4 reflected projectiles are counted per player.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned a drastic cost increase? I'm fine with Magicka DKs having some improved mobility and better methods to engage/escape (though I think the gap closer morph of chains is overlooked more than it should be). The main problem making Wings overpowered right now is having such an extended uptime.

Your suggestion would help in some cases, but it'd basically make their escape from other Magicka builds a 100% guaranteed success, unless being zerged with mass Force Pulse and/or Cliff Racers. 'Course, my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion isn't perfect, either, since they'd still generally hard counter other Magicka builds in objective-mode Battlegrounds.

But even ZOS' (supposed) upcoming change isn't what's needed, IMO. A flat 50% damage reduction from projectiles, if it's anywhere near as spammable as the Wings are now, is going to be absurdly overpowered vs most other Magicka setups. Which means that we'll continue to have a situation where Magicka builds get hard countered by numerous different things, while Stam remains the king of small scale fights and Battlegrounds.

Bro, wings are 3780 magicka. Unless you have hella recov, who can sustain that? Mag DK sustain is already ass because 90% of its skills are expensive AF. Not to mention stam DK can use wings literally twice and be out of magicka.

Cloak also cost 3780 magicka and only lasts 3 secs, yet according to other classes all NB are perma cloaked

Magicka upkeep of a Dk and Nb aren't the same. Dk has to keep up spiked armor+fragmented shield and those two are just minimum. Stuff like petrify, FoO, wings are only adding to this.

Xvorg

likecats wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

Wings+block.... won't that then be 125% damage reduction for projectiles?

I think we need to know the full list of changes before we can know if it is to much of a nerf or not.

True but I bet anything NB doesn't lose cloak because so if they don't lose their ability to gank undetected why should we lose our only thing to help against ranged users especially if we don't get mobility. Catching people as a dk is already hard.

You literally have a gap closer that also increases your movement speed.

For those of you that think out gap closer (22m range) will help us get to a target that can hit us from 28m- you probably missed the math somewhere.

Oh! And let’s not forget that DKs can be pewpewed from a wall or rock within 28m... and chains won’t pull us too you. “Target is too high/low.”

Oh- and that major expetition is useless if you can hit anyone with your chains.

Sounds like ranged builds are at a clear advantage.

Just use force pulse.

You might have to give up your main spammable, which also heals you, and without it you might not be able to survive, but just use force pulse.

It's totally not unreasonable to tell a melee build to use force pulse, therefore just use force pulse. Everyone has to make sacrifices. I'm totally not going to admit that a total playstyle shift is an unreasonable sacrifice for anyone to make.

Let's not even go in the loss of class identity by using force pulse, but suck it up and just use force pulse.

Spamming force pulse without any other skills will also not kill any competent player, but who cares right? Just use force pulse.

Counters exist bro, just use force pulse.

Pulse does not synergize with any passive in the Ardent Flame line, in the Elder Dragon line and in the Earthen Heart line. In fact, Elemental weapon has more utility than Pulse and that's a bad choice.

Xvorg

kaithuzar wrote: »

Demra wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

Magdks complaining about having bad mobility when theyre the only mag class that has a snare removal in their kit lul, try playing a magplar or magden without mistform or worst of all a magblade.

You understand that mDK is a melee class unlike magplar, magden and magblade, right? mDK cannot use range the same way other magika users can so they need the extra mobility.

That’s not entirely correct.
Dk can use force pulls & flame staff weave just like everyone else.

Also, any of those magic classes can equip a 2h sword for forward momentum & become “a melee class”.

Again, none of them will benefit from any passive in the DK kit. If you think that's a solution, then you are plainly wrong. Instead of using those skills on a Dk is much, much better reroll Sorc or NB

kaithuzar

@Xvorg

Your argument is “a non-class specific skill doesn’t synergize with my class specific passives”..,
Are you serious???? LOL

TrinityBreaker

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

What you are asking is to make wings multi tool that would allow not only to stay almost untouchable at distance, but also escape and engage tool, in general OP version of mist form without any drawbacks, thanks but no.

I still think that wings would be better if it would work only for skills casted from range greater than 8m, while changing it so 4 reflected projectiles are counted per player.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned a drastic cost increase? I'm fine with Magicka DKs having some improved mobility and better methods to engage/escape (though I think the gap closer morph of chains is overlooked more than it should be). The main problem making Wings overpowered right now is having such an extended uptime.

Your suggestion would help in some cases, but it'd basically make their escape from other Magicka builds a 100% guaranteed success, unless being zerged with mass Force Pulse and/or Cliff Racers. 'Course, my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion isn't perfect, either, since they'd still generally hard counter other Magicka builds in objective-mode Battlegrounds.

But even ZOS' (supposed) upcoming change isn't what's needed, IMO. A flat 50% damage reduction from projectiles, if it's anywhere near as spammable as the Wings are now, is going to be absurdly overpowered vs most other Magicka setups. Which means that we'll continue to have a situation where Magicka builds get hard countered by numerous different things, while Stam remains the king of small scale fights and Battlegrounds.

Bro, wings are 3780 magicka. Unless you have hella recov, who can sustain that? Mag DK sustain is already ass because 90% of its skills are expensive AF. Not to mention stam DK can use wings literally twice and be out of magicka.

Cloak also cost 3780 magicka and only lasts 3 secs, yet according to other classes all NB are perma cloaked

Unless you are 1v1ing, wings won't even last a second if there is more than one enemy. That *** will legit drop the moment the skill is cast. As for the perma cloak thing, they are.

Well, then you appreciate the change since wings will last the full duration then, right?

I'd appreciate if my favorite class wasn't f u c k i n g trash outside of tanking.

Xvorg

kaithuzar wrote: »

@Xvorg

Your argument is “a non-class specific skill doesn’t synergize with my class specific passives”..,
Are you serious???? LOL

All classes except mDK and magden to some regards (though they already have racers) receive a benefit for using Force pulse as a main spammable instead of a class spammable, based on their natural passives. For example Sorc get's it cheaper and the shock based dmg (1/3 of the beam) is a 5% stronger, NB has a higher crit dmg , while templar has it cheaper and with higher crit dmg when using it.

So, if a mDK wants to use force pulse as a reliable spammable, he needs to forget about the passives he gets in his own skill lines. Compared to that, a DK force pulse will be always more expensive and weaker than the one used by the above mentioned classes.

The option is to go melee, considering than DK has 2 extra mts on melee skills, but the only magicka melee skill is whip (which also applies snare due to a passive in the ardent flame tree), so here we are again debating if force pulse is a better option than whip, which is not.

Another story could be pulsar, but that one should be fixed before and considered melee.

You could consider this trivial, but it is not. The extra effect from a class passive can make the difference betweeen a pew pew sorc and a pew pew DK (who has less chances to win that fight), so your suggestion of running force pulsar is by no way better than using whip.

Now, if you help us with ZoS to give us a more generic passive in the Ardent Flame skill tree, which is not dependant on randomness or a specific skill/element in exchange for the nerf to wings, I could support your idea of using Force Pulse as a main spammable on a DK.

usmcjdking

If damage immunity is frowned upon then I see no reason as to why DOT damage should still be entirely mitigated by cloak.

Xvorg

usmcjdking wrote: »

If damage immunity is frowned upon then I see no reason as to why DOT damage should still be entirely mitigated by cloak.

I tend not to say anything about cloak, but wings are useless against any enemy with half a brain in the same way cloak is useless against any enemy with half a brain. The treatment ZoS is giving both skills amazes me, because one must be changed, while the other, despite the countless nerfs it has received, is still the same.

By the way, thinking about Necrosheet, they have some nasty options to feck any mDK in their kits. The only thing I think it could be reflectable is the skull and even that I doubt it... maybe it receives the racer's treatment. So there's no way DK wings will give any problem to ZoS new biutch

kpittsniperb14_ESO

gepe87 wrote: »

RIP in every change:

RIP Stamblades with ultimate change
RIP Magsorc with shield change
RIP Stamsorc with implosion removal
RIP DK with Lash changes
RIP Altmer and Bosmer

RIP
RIP
RIP

Gotta start pushing people into buying the new DLC....I mean Chapter, sorry...to get the new OP class. Can't do this by having the old classes on the same power level.

Knootewoot

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

What you are asking is to make wings multi tool that would allow not only to stay almost untouchable at distance, but also escape and engage tool, in general OP version of mist form without any drawbacks, thanks but no.

I still think that wings would be better if it would work only for skills casted from range greater than 8m, while changing it so 4 reflected projectiles are counted per player.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned a drastic cost increase? I'm fine with Magicka DKs having some improved mobility and better methods to engage/escape (though I think the gap closer morph of chains is overlooked more than it should be). The main problem making Wings overpowered right now is having such an extended uptime.

Your suggestion would help in some cases, but it'd basically make their escape from other Magicka builds a 100% guaranteed success, unless being zerged with mass Force Pulse and/or Cliff Racers. 'Course, my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion isn't perfect, either, since they'd still generally hard counter other Magicka builds in objective-mode Battlegrounds.

But even ZOS' (supposed) upcoming change isn't what's needed, IMO. A flat 50% damage reduction from projectiles, if it's anywhere near as spammable as the Wings are now, is going to be absurdly overpowered vs most other Magicka setups. Which means that we'll continue to have a situation where Magicka builds get hard countered by numerous different things, while Stam remains the king of small scale fights and Battlegrounds.

Bro, wings are 3780 magicka. Unless you have hella recov, who can sustain that? Mag DK sustain is already ass because 90% of its skills are expensive AF. Not to mention stam DK can use wings literally twice and be out of magicka.

Cloak also cost 3780 magicka and only lasts 3 secs, yet according to other classes all NB are perma cloaked

Magicka upkeep of a Dk and Nb aren't the same. Dk has to keep up spiked armor+fragmented shield and those two are just minimum. Stuff like petrify, FoO, wings are only adding to this.

Have to keep it up? That's just personal choice/wish.

As a magblade I have to keep up cloak for its passives, I have to keep up my harness magicka for defence, I have to keep up merciless resolve for the bow proc, I have to keep up mirage for defence and aoe protection.

Edit: At a minimum. And then I need to attack also with skills that are being reflected.

brandonv516

Janoy wrote: »

Not that this suggestion is a direct answer to the wings change but does anyone think ZoS should allow FOO/Cauterize to act as a pet to proc necropotence? Just a thought.

There's a new set coming out that IS essentially Necropotence but without the pet requirements.

Hotdog_23

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

You literally have a gap closer that also increases your movement speed.

And you have multiple class abilities that ignore wings and can endlessly kite Evil wing Spammers. Just because something exists in the class skill tree doesnt mean its good and/or People have bar space for it.
I have started using chains to lock down healers that are far away or other ranged Targets for smallscale pvp and let me tell you dropping stuff like engulfing or ele drain for it feels really really bad.
Not to Mention that chains still sometimes dont work depending on altitude of the target and sometimes just doesnt pull you to them when your target dodges or cloaks despite chains being "undodgeable".

I know finding space on your bar is hard for a mdk, and it is for some other classes too. I'm simply saying that you have options for mobility, so complaining that you have none is simply untrue. If you want more sustain and damage, then you forgo some mobility, if you want mobility then you lose out on some damage or sustain. It's just the way this game works - you can't have your cake and eat it too.
And yes, I'm aware chains is buggy. That doesn't mean it's a bad skill, it just needs to be fixed.

Chains Grant cc immunity so if I pull in they can still escape. It works great in big group play where my group will pounce the person but if I'm alone the person now knows I can't cc then and starts to go ham maybe cc me. And this move is no different then silver leash.

Let's talk about that increased movement speed. So if I'm trying to run you mean I need to use a move to pull someone close to me to get a speed buff? Lol sorcs and major expedition and stread, NB can escape through cloak, warden gas bird of prey, so yeah we lack mobility.

Another thing that makes chains situational is the fact that along with our wing Nerf all those NB spamming snipe from 28m away can watch us move to them as they keep walking back as we try to close the gap because chains isn't 28m. So now I'm taking huge damage and will be almost dead by the time I get him in chain range, but my movement speed from chains was so good and worth me slotting right?

This is one of the reasons why I want the major expedition to be on wings and not chains.

Chilly-McFreeze

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

You literally have a gap closer that also increases your movement speed.

And you have multiple class abilities that ignore wings and can endlessly kite Evil wing Spammers. Just because something exists in the class skill tree doesnt mean its good and/or People have bar space for it.
I have started using chains to lock down healers that are far away or other ranged Targets for smallscale pvp and let me tell you dropping stuff like engulfing or ele drain for it feels really really bad.
Not to Mention that chains still sometimes dont work depending on altitude of the target and sometimes just doesnt pull you to them when your target dodges or cloaks despite chains being "undodgeable".

I know finding space on your bar is hard for a mdk, and it is for some other classes too. I'm simply saying that you have options for mobility, so complaining that you have none is simply untrue. If you want more sustain and damage, then you forgo some mobility, if you want mobility then you lose out on some damage or sustain. It's just the way this game works - you can't have your cake and eat it too.
And yes, I'm aware chains is buggy. That doesn't mean it's a bad skill, it just needs to be fixed.

Chains Grant cc immunity so if I pull in they can still escape. It works great in big group play where my group will pounce the person but if I'm alone the person now knows I can't cc then and starts to go ham maybe cc me. And this move is no different then silver leash.

Let's talk about that increased movement speed. So if I'm trying to run you mean I need to use a move to pull someone close to me to get a speed buff? Lol sorcs and major expedition and stread, NB can escape through cloak, warden gas bird of prey, so yeah we lack mobility.

Another thing that makes chains situational is the fact that along with our wing Nerf all those NB spamming snipe from 28m away can watch us move to them as they keep walking back as we try to close the gap because chains isn't 28m. So now I'm taking huge damage and will be almost dead by the time I get him in chain range, but my movement speed from chains was so good and worth me slotting right?

This is one of the reasons why I want the major expedition to be on wings and not chains.

So 1 skill should give you

• 50% ranged mitigation
• snare removal + immunity
• major expedition
• 12% healing recieved
• 5% health regen

Do I get this right?

Arkangeloski

Finally I can get a proc from my master's bow on one of those winged creatures for a change.

Sanguinor2

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

So 1 skill should give you

• 50% ranged mitigation
• snare removal + immunity
• major expedition
• 12% healing recieved
• 5% health regen

Do I get this right?

So 1 skill should give nightblades:
- Major Ward and Major resolve for casting it
- 100% crit Chance for your next attack
- 3% Health for slotting it
- force all projectiles fired at you to miss
- 100% Damage reduction of dots on you
- make you untargetable for any and all single target abilities in this game
- avoid you from being seen by any Player and Mobs with very few exceptions
- lets you line up burst like no other ability in this game since you can still cast abilities with a cast time from Stealth without loosing it
- 10% weapon and spell Damage while it lasts
- doubles stun Duration from stealth
- yet wings is the problematic skill because it would do too much with Major Expedition

That About Right?

kaithuzar

@Sanguinor2

The problem here is the outcome.
If you guys can add up all of the abilities & passives & your stance is that on paper nightblade has more advantages/is better...
Then why are there close to 0 magblades running in Cyrodiil, why is a good 30% of players in Cyrodiil a DK, & why does DK win 90%+ fights against magblade.

I’m just saying if magblades have “ALL THE ABOVE” & can’t win a fight either it’s not enough or something’s broken.

Sanguinor2

kaithuzar wrote: »

The problem here is the outcome.
If you guys can add up all of the abilities & passives & your stance is that on paper nightblade has more advantages/is better...
Then why are there close to 0 magblades running in Cyrodiil, why is a good 30% of players in Cyrodiil a DK, & why does DK win 90%+ fights against magblade.

I’m just saying if magblades have “ALL THE ABOVE” & can’t win a fight either it’s not enough or something’s broken.

What I did was simply comparing cloak and wings Primary and secondary effects, what you are doing is trying to apply a singular ability to the complete class Performance and we both know that this is not how it works.

The reason that there is close to 0 magblades in cyro is indirect nerfs aka healing ward, snare meta, and direct nerfs because of 2 years of pve overperformance which were undone in a way that did not benefit pvp at all.

The reason why dks win most fights against magblades is that A: magblade got overnerfed from a pvp standpoint, and B that the only somewhat viable magblade builds get hardcountered by anything that hardcounters range.

But if we look strictly at 1v1 Im reasonably sure that in most dueling tournaments magdk won against magblade even with wings banned simply because magblade´s whole kit has suffered and dk as an inherently tanky class is not that easy to burst down which is what a magblade has to do for killing Blows. Add to that in dueling magblade cannot use disengage to its fullest potential because of limited dueling Zone and once in melee range dk can lock magblade down Pretty well unless preemptive shade was placed and you have your reasons.

All of this does not Change that one could say that cloak is indeed an overloaded ability if you compare it with others like it was tried with wings here.

And you should know all of this so I dont understand the Point you were trying to make.

Hotdog_23

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

You literally have a gap closer that also increases your movement speed.

And you have multiple class abilities that ignore wings and can endlessly kite Evil wing Spammers. Just because something exists in the class skill tree doesnt mean its good and/or People have bar space for it.
I have started using chains to lock down healers that are far away or other ranged Targets for smallscale pvp and let me tell you dropping stuff like engulfing or ele drain for it feels really really bad.
Not to Mention that chains still sometimes dont work depending on altitude of the target and sometimes just doesnt pull you to them when your target dodges or cloaks despite chains being "undodgeable".

I know finding space on your bar is hard for a mdk, and it is for some other classes too. I'm simply saying that you have options for mobility, so complaining that you have none is simply untrue. If you want more sustain and damage, then you forgo some mobility, if you want mobility then you lose out on some damage or sustain. It's just the way this game works - you can't have your cake and eat it too.
And yes, I'm aware chains is buggy. That doesn't mean it's a bad skill, it just needs to be fixed.

Chains Grant cc immunity so if I pull in they can still escape. It works great in big group play where my group will pounce the person but if I'm alone the person now knows I can't cc then and starts to go ham maybe cc me. And this move is no different then silver leash.

Let's talk about that increased movement speed. So if I'm trying to run you mean I need to use a move to pull someone close to me to get a speed buff? Lol sorcs and major expedition and stread, NB can escape through cloak, warden gas bird of prey, so yeah we lack mobility.

Another thing that makes chains situational is the fact that along with our wing Nerf all those NB spamming snipe from 28m away can watch us move to them as they keep walking back as we try to close the gap because chains isn't 28m. So now I'm taking huge damage and will be almost dead by the time I get him in chain range, but my movement speed from chains was so good and worth me slotting right?

This is one of the reasons why I want the major expedition to be on wings and not chains.

So 1 skill should give you

• 50% ranged mitigation
• snare removal + immunity
• major expedition
• 12% healing recieved
• 5% health regen

Do I get this right?

Yes you do. Take major expedition from chains and move it to wings. So we can have a consistent way to reposition during a fight or outside of a fight other then mist form or a skill that doesn't work half the time.

Datthaw

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

What you are asking is to make wings multi tool that would allow not only to stay almost untouchable at distance, but also escape and engage tool, in general OP version of mist form without any drawbacks, thanks but no.

I still think that wings would be better if it would work only for skills casted from range greater than 8m, while changing it so 4 reflected projectiles are counted per player.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned a drastic cost increase? I'm fine with Magicka DKs having some improved mobility and better methods to engage/escape (though I think the gap closer morph of chains is overlooked more than it should be). The main problem making Wings overpowered right now is having such an extended uptime.

Your suggestion would help in some cases, but it'd basically make their escape from other Magicka builds a 100% guaranteed success, unless being zerged with mass Force Pulse and/or Cliff Racers. 'Course, my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion isn't perfect, either, since they'd still generally hard counter other Magicka builds in objective-mode Battlegrounds.

But even ZOS' (supposed) upcoming change isn't what's needed, IMO. A flat 50% damage reduction from projectiles, if it's anywhere near as spammable as the Wings are now, is going to be absurdly overpowered vs most other Magicka setups. Which means that we'll continue to have a situation where Magicka builds get hard countered by numerous different things, while Stam remains the king of small scale fights and Battlegrounds.

Bro, wings are 3780 magicka. Unless you have hella recov, who can sustain that? Mag DK sustain is already ass because 90% of its skills are expensive AF. Not to mention stam DK can use wings literally twice and be out of magicka.

Cloak also cost 3780 magicka and only lasts 3 secs, yet according to other classes all NB are perma cloaked

Unless you are 1v1ing, wings won't even last a second if there is more than one enemy. That *** will legit drop the moment the skill is cast. As for the perma cloak thing, they are.

If it drops in a second then wings saved you. dks are the ony class who wants to never be hit from range.

Datthaw

kaithuzar wrote: »

Demra wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

Magdks complaining about having bad mobility when theyre the only mag class that has a snare removal in their kit lul, try playing a magplar or magden without mistform or worst of all a magblade.

You understand that mDK is a melee class unlike magplar, magden and magblade, right? mDK cannot use range the same way other magika users can so they need the extra mobility.

That’s not entirely correct.
Dk can use force pulls & flame staff weave just like everyone else.

Also, any of those magic classes can equip a 2h sword for forward momentum & become “a melee class”.

You could even argue that Magdks has the best options for ranged heavy attacks with their weapon buff

Sanguinor2

Datthaw wrote: »

You could even argue that Magdks has the best options for ranged heavy attacks with their weapon buff

While magdk having the strongest ranged heavy attacks with armaments cast is true, what exactly does a ranged heavy attack build magdk do again in a pvp fight? Hope your enemy disconnects because otherwise no one is bad enough to die to one fire heavy attack every 3 seconds? Become a famous magdk ganker because one heavy attack from Stealth will totally oneshot People?

wheem_ESO

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

What you are asking is to make wings multi tool that would allow not only to stay almost untouchable at distance, but also escape and engage tool, in general OP version of mist form without any drawbacks, thanks but no.

I still think that wings would be better if it would work only for skills casted from range greater than 8m, while changing it so 4 reflected projectiles are counted per player.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned a drastic cost increase? I'm fine with Magicka DKs having some improved mobility and better methods to engage/escape (though I think the gap closer morph of chains is overlooked more than it should be). The main problem making Wings overpowered right now is having such an extended uptime.

Your suggestion would help in some cases, but it'd basically make their escape from other Magicka builds a 100% guaranteed success, unless being zerged with mass Force Pulse and/or Cliff Racers. 'Course, my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion isn't perfect, either, since they'd still generally hard counter other Magicka builds in objective-mode Battlegrounds.

But even ZOS' (supposed) upcoming change isn't what's needed, IMO. A flat 50% damage reduction from projectiles, if it's anywhere near as spammable as the Wings are now, is going to be absurdly overpowered vs most other Magicka setups. Which means that we'll continue to have a situation where Magicka builds get hard countered by numerous different things, while Stam remains the king of small scale fights and Battlegrounds.

Bro, wings are 3780 magicka. Unless you have hella recov, who can sustain that? Mag DK sustain is already ass because 90% of its skills are expensive AF. Not to mention stam DK can use wings literally twice and be out of magicka.

Maybe you need to change your build up, or look at using different potions or something? I've seen a substantial amount of Wings spam in no-CP Battlegrounds (and Cyrodiil), including a pretty fair amount from some Stamina builds - certainly enough to put their target on the back foot, and usually keep them there. And that's why I made the suggestion that I did.

If the issue many of the DKs in this thread have with a change to Wings is that they believe it'll negatively affect their ability to close distance to their target, a big cost increase shouldn't matter all that much (don't try to chase down a Streaking Mag Sorc - no other non-Sorc can realistically do it, either). Where a cost increase will matter, for sure, is during the situation that I see so commonly now - a Mag DK sitting on top of another immobile Magicka spec, keeping Wings up often enough for it to basically hard counter their "victim," barring outside intervention.

Xvorg wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

If damage immunity is frowned upon then I see no reason as to why DOT damage should still be entirely mitigated by cloak.

I tend not to say anything about cloak, but wings are useless against any enemy with half a brain in the same way cloak is useless against any enemy with half a brain. The treatment ZoS is giving both skills amazes me, because one must be changed, while the other, despite the countless nerfs it has received, is still the same.

By the way, thinking about Necrosheet, they have some nasty options to feck any mDK in their kits. The only thing I think it could be reflectable is the skull and even that I doubt it... maybe it receives the racer's treatment. So there's no way DK wings will give any problem to ZoS new biutch

Wings are not nearly as easily countered as Cloak is. If I could drop a Wall of Elements on you to cancel out your Wings, you'd have a point. But no one is going to kill you with just Force Pulse or Cliff Racer spam. Imagine trying to kill people with only your Whip; no light attacks, no enchant or poison procs, no DOTs, and no +25% damage from your target being a Vampire. If that's your restriction, and your opponent is free to use their entire toolkit against you, what do you think your chances of coming out on top are?

Datthaw

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

You could even argue that Magdks has the best options for ranged heavy attacks with their weapon buff

While magdk having the strongest ranged heavy attacks with armaments cast is true, what exactly does a ranged heavy attack build magdk do again in a pvp fight? Hope your enemy disconnects because otherwise no one is bad enough to die to one fire heavy attack every 3 seconds? Become a famous magdk ganker because one heavy attack from Stealth will totally oneshot People?

Lightning heavies with skoria and double dot poison with a stonefist meteor combo? I mean this thread likes to compare to magna so much so what does ranged do for maagnb? I have to get close to fear/soul harvest...

Edit, BTW I hate how this thread ties magnb to this conversation

JLAMAR22

Yet another unneeded, stupid and class identifying skill being nerfed. People need to learn to play! If you see a DK throw his wings up, count 4 seconds before you launch something! It’s amazing how people don’t under stand CC mechanics to fight it either. Can’t count the number of times I’ve played against CP810’s who don’t even know how to break free 🤦🏼‍♂️. Really hope this change doesn’t fall through. It won’t kill the class as long as they don’t touch the CC removal but reflect is something unique to us, so I’d hate to see it go, but heck so was Overload on sorcs/*stam sorcs and they through that one away too.

Sanguinor2

Datthaw wrote: »

Lightning heavies with skoria and double dot poison with a stonefist meteor combo? I mean this thread likes to compare to magna so much so what does ranged do for maagnb? I have to get close to fear/soul harvest...

Edit, BTW I hate how this thread ties magnb to this conversation

You wont be able to get an unblocked Meteor against any decent Player so the Combo wont kill since skoria proc and stonefist Damage might get blocked too, I guess it would be nice pressure in Xv1.
Range for magblade gives pressure before having to go melee for fear/Soul Harvest and endless kiting against non mobile classes/builds without a gap Closer without placing yourself at much if any Risk and the ability to reset a fight which you do not want to fight by using your disengage Tools.
Also magblades brought themselves into this conversation (if with this conversation you mean the thread) to gloat at dks loosing the one ability they did not like playing against.