RIP Dragonknight Wings

Sanguinor2

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Did you miss the part where I mentioned a drastic cost increase? I'm fine with Magicka DKs having some improved mobility and better methods to engage/escape (though I think the gap closer morph of chains is overlooked more than it should be). The main problem making Wings overpowered right now is having such an extended uptime.

Your suggestion would help in some cases, but it'd basically make their escape from other Magicka builds a 100% guaranteed success, unless being zerged with mass Force Pulse and/or Cliff Racers. 'Course, my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion isn't perfect, either, since they'd still generally hard counter other Magicka builds in objective-mode Battlegrounds.

But even ZOS' (supposed) upcoming change isn't what's needed, IMO. A flat 50% damage reduction from projectiles, if it's anywhere near as spammable as the Wings are now, is going to be absurdly overpowered vs most other Magicka setups. Which means that we'll continue to have a situation where Magicka builds get hard countered by numerous different things, while Stam remains the king of small scale fights and Battlegrounds.

Well first of all a dk with the current class kit, especially a magdk, wont Escape anything that has even the smallest piece of mobility, since our only speedbuff requires us to either pull someone to us or pull us to them, neither really help when escaping.
Second, chains isnt really overlooked its just a Pretty bad ability, for slotting it you loose something like engulfing, ele drain or the ability to run tripots or anything other than spellpower pots if you unslot entropy for it, it also wont pull you if your target has a slight difference in altitude compared to you and it wont pull you either when your target cloaks and many times doesnt work when your target dodges, despite chains being undodgeable, and gets absorbed by ball of Lightning.
If chains were fixed it might become a decent gap Closer, it would still make for some tough choices because of lack of bar space, but in its current state you are better off not using it. (Source: I´ve been using it and unslotted engulfing for it, it feels really bad to loose the %dmg amp and another dot for a gap Closer that wont close the gap 50% off the time)

Mayrael

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

Ignoring the fact that all the ranged People wanting balance dont complain About cloak which is Minimum as strong as wings in negating Damage (not only ranged but also dots and anything targeted) but only About wings and very few About shimmering, a potential solution that others have talked About multiple times would be to give wings a range at which they dont reflect projectiles anymore so that all builds have the choice of either Fighting the dk head on with their usual abilities or trying to kill them from range but having to deal with the reflect.
Its a solution I like much more than getting rid of one of the few pieces of class identitiy left on dks. Old Inferno gone, Old Cinderstorm gone, Old molten armaments gone I really dont want wings added to that list.

Was posting about range of wings above and personally think it would be much better approach. Why people don't complain as much about cloak is because there are multiple counters to it. In other words you can do something to kill cloaking NB without complete overhaul of your build (for me all I need are detection potions), while to kill a mDK you need to build for it.

Betty_Booms

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

The skill will certainly be more boring, but have you ever tried to play against wings with a ranged build? Let me tell you, if the dk has half a working brain, it's impossible. Literally. You are a parse dummy and nothing more (especially magnbs).

Wings will definitely not be useless, 50% damage mitigation is huge, they will simply allow you to play against them. And don't forget that you will have an actual 6s uptime and not only 4 projectiles.

Huh, that sounds like it'll still be fairly overpowered against ranged builds. I mean I guess you won't blow yourself up or CC yourself anymore, but unless the cost is getting a huge increase, 50% damage mitigation (on top of other sources of mitigation) against all projectiles is massive...that's significantly more defense than Major Protection, and will presumably stack with it.

This...whining DKs dissapointed they cant hit a button and watch people frag themselves to death...may actually have to duel and think.... but dont worry. 50% damage reduction for 6 full seconds and they still have fossilize...I wonder who will run out of resources first.....

WoppaBoem

Betty_Booms wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

The skill will certainly be more boring, but have you ever tried to play against wings with a ranged build? Let me tell you, if the dk has half a working brain, it's impossible. Literally. You are a parse dummy and nothing more (especially magnbs).

Wings will definitely not be useless, 50% damage mitigation is huge, they will simply allow you to play against them. And don't forget that you will have an actual 6s uptime and not only 4 projectiles.

Huh, that sounds like it'll still be fairly overpowered against ranged builds. I mean I guess you won't blow yourself up or CC yourself anymore, but unless the cost is getting a huge increase, 50% damage mitigation (on top of other sources of mitigation) against all projectiles is massive...that's significantly more defense than Major Protection, and will presumably stack with it.

This...whining DKs dissapointed they cant hit a button and watch people frag themselves to death...may actually have to duel and think.... but dont worry. 50% damage reduction for 6 full seconds and they still have fossilize...I wonder who will run out of resources first.....

We do have to hit a button so see people frag themselves you know...

Datthaw

Lol at magdks "bUt chAIn iS bUgGEd" it is a gap close with frigging major expedition and your class have a snare immunity with wings. It works like every other gap close, know how many times I've hit a no cast lotus fan or pop shadow image to get "invalid location"?




Magdks....

WoppaBoem

Datthaw wrote: »

Lol at magdks "bUt chAIn iS bUgGEd" it is a gap close with frigging major expedition and your class have a snare immunity with wings. It works like every other gap close, know how many times I've hit a no cast lotus fan or pop shadow image to get "invalid location"?




Magdks....

You know what is broken that fricking fear, that is bugged but in nb's favor hate the skill it needs to be nerfed

Xvorg

Minalan wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

The devs let the wings stay ridiculously powerful for so long, magDKs feel pretty much entitled to being permanently immune to all ranged damage.

Not only immune, but we all deserve to get it back in the face.

Good job there ZOS. You should have fixed this when you finally buffed DK heals.

50 percent reduction for 6 seconds with no cap is overwhelmingly strong. I don't think half the people angry about it have done the math.

Yeah do the math 100% ranged protection against a class that has no good speed buff or gap closer isn't as good as 50% dmg reduction for a class that has no good speed buff or gap closer.

What your really saying is it is good for us to walk to you at turtles pace while you pelt us for 50% dmg.... And with how high damage is in pvp that's fair? We are your personal target dummy? Lol

If I run at you I waste stamina for you to just CC me and kill. If I try to leave you alone you just follow me keeping yourself the max range possible.

Or better yet any range user could maybe not just use a bow and actually fight us with their rediculious damage output classes have now lol. The counter to wings again exists just like the counter to "cloak" exists. I really really really hope they Nerf cloak my tears will be all over this forum because cloak is so much more busted then wings will ever be. You can see we casted it and just leave us alone or change your fight style or cc us and burst us it's not hard. But a cloak user you never see coming and can kill you before you know they are there. 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

No, you'll have to use things like chains, that's in your bloody class kit ffs.

.

Chains are broken due to axis. They won't pull anything above 5 mts over you. I'm ok if we lose wings IF chains come back to what they were. And if that means I can pull guys from a keep's wall, so be it.

Kidgangster101

Mayrael wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

Ignoring the fact that all the ranged People wanting balance dont complain About cloak which is Minimum as strong as wings in negating Damage (not only ranged but also dots and anything targeted) but only About wings and very few About shimmering, a potential solution that others have talked About multiple times would be to give wings a range at which they dont reflect projectiles anymore so that all builds have the choice of either Fighting the dk head on with their usual abilities or trying to kill them from range but having to deal with the reflect.
Its a solution I like much more than getting rid of one of the few pieces of class identitiy left on dks. Old Inferno gone, Old Cinderstorm gone, Old molten armaments gone I really dont want wings added to that list.

Was posting about range of wings above and personally think it would be much better approach. Why people don't complain as much about cloak is because there are multiple counters to it. In other words you can do something to kill cloaking NB without complete overhaul of your build (for me all I need are detection potions), while to kill a mDK you need to build for it.

Glad your detect pot works perfectly fine while your using "ranged" attacks on a NB cloaking to avoid 100% damage.........

Even though a detect potion needs you to be very close to the NB using cloak

Xvorg

Datthaw wrote: »

Lol at magdks "bUt chAIn iS bUgGEd" it is a gap close with frigging major expedition and your class have a snare immunity with wings. It works like every other gap close, know how many times I've hit a no cast lotus fan or pop shadow image to get "invalid location"?




Magdks....

How many hours have you played as mDK? Because that commentary bleeds ignorance.

As a mageblade I have ZERO problems against a mDK, maybe because I know both classes.

By the way, if you use unrelenting and you can't pull the enemy ou don't get expedition. If you use empowering you get "invalid location" even more often than when using Lotus (5 mts above or under you and you can't use it). Lotus is a bad gap closer, but chains are even worst.

Kidgangster101

Datthaw wrote: »

Lol at magdks "bUt chAIn iS bUgGEd" it is a gap close with frigging major expedition and your class have a snare immunity with wings. It works like every other gap close, know how many times I've hit a no cast lotus fan or pop shadow image to get "invalid location"?




Magdks....

So a NB is saying their shadow image is bugged and yes it should be fixed but the major expedition dk has access to isn't bugged it is a horrible designed speed buff lol.

It makes us get pulled to the enemy or pull them to us for a speed buff. If we do not meet one of those conditions we don't get a speed buff. If we do try to run away also why do we want the enemy to get near us? Logic.........

Meanwhile NB get cloak which is way worse than wings. If you can't get away from players as a NB then you need more practice because it's really not that difficult. Let's compare cloak vs wings

Cloak- go stealth to dodge a attack you can now launch a counter attack that guarantees a crit plus a stun........

Wings- you can see us do a big flap so if you choose to attack us your move you shouldn't have casted gets reflected to you.

Hmmmmmm so you choose to engage with a dk even tho it's dangerous but yet you don't complain against NB using cloak and hitting you with a range snipe to crit stun you while they hit you with the gap closer or another snipe and kill you. So one instance you kill yourself over and over to wings that you see or you die to the NB you can't see lol. What's the actual difference?

Sanguinor2

Datthaw wrote: »

Lol at magdks "bUt chAIn iS bUgGEd" it is a gap close with frigging major expedition and your class have a snare immunity with wings. It works like every other gap close, know how many times I've hit a no cast lotus fan or pop shadow image to get "invalid location"?




Magdks....

So how much magdk did you Play? Let me guess: 0. So you cannot make any valid comment About chains working, being bugged, being good or being bad. I have used chains and it getting negated by cloak, ball of Lightning, altitude and dodgerolls doesnt make it a good gap Closer...

Betty_Booms

Lazy DK mentality. Rather sit there and spam a "skill". Maybe do what the rest of us do and lay down some aoe or use detect pots to find the nb...they actually have a good range. Oh and dont dk chains go through dodge?....as does fossillise?

Im sorry... i just loled so hard at you justifying wings by saying we just shouldnt attack...


I mean come on...
FYI nbs are a pretty weak class in BGs...

Sanguinor2

Betty_Booms wrote: »

Lazy DK mentality. Rather sit there and spam a "skill". Maybe do what the rest of us do and lay down some aoe or use detect pots to find the nb...they actually have a good range. Oh and dont dk chains go through dodge?....as does fossillise?

Im sorry... i just loled so hard at you justifying wings by saying we just shouldnt attack...


I mean come on...
FYI nbs are a pretty weak class in BGs...

To your "Question" About chains, while using them I found that cloak and ball of Lightning negate them and dodging sometimes lets you pull but many times it does not even tho they are supposed to be undodgeable, the Damage gets through afaik but I usually dont use a gap Closer to deal Damage dunno About you tho, Maybe for you its a sign dk is op.
And you can also stop being lazy and use AoEs against wings or force pulse, or melee or anything that is not a projectile or use cc when its About to fall off or Count reflects and cc and burst then or disengage and try to burst from cloak when the dk is unaware or Fighting someone else. All These can work just like cloak counters can work too.
Lazy "I want to Pewpew everything from 41m range pls disable all counters mentality".

Mayrael

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

Ignoring the fact that all the ranged People wanting balance dont complain About cloak which is Minimum as strong as wings in negating Damage (not only ranged but also dots and anything targeted) but only About wings and very few About shimmering, a potential solution that others have talked About multiple times would be to give wings a range at which they dont reflect projectiles anymore so that all builds have the choice of either Fighting the dk head on with their usual abilities or trying to kill them from range but having to deal with the reflect.
Its a solution I like much more than getting rid of one of the few pieces of class identitiy left on dks. Old Inferno gone, Old Cinderstorm gone, Old molten armaments gone I really dont want wings added to that list.

Was posting about range of wings above and personally think it would be much better approach. Why people don't complain as much about cloak is because there are multiple counters to it. In other words you can do something to kill cloaking NB without complete overhaul of your build (for me all I need are detection potions), while to kill a mDK you need to build for it.

Glad your detect pot works perfectly fine while your using "ranged" attacks on a NB cloaking to avoid 100% damage.........

Even though a detect potion needs you to be very close to the NB using cloak

It's not my problem you don't know how to use them. My kill counter shows that most of my victims are... NBs! Further are sorcs, templars aaand then DKs followed only by wardens. My point is if your statement about counters to cloak would be true, NBs would be the least killed class but somehow it's opposite. Counters to cloak are working perfectly fine, all you need to do is to learn how and most important WHEN to use them, that's simple l2p issue.

Ok let's make a deal. Wings stay as they are right now, but we implement potion that disables them for 15s with same range as detection potion. Sounds fair to you?

Edit:
Oh and to make it fair. You will be able still to cast wings to waste resources and whenever I hit you, your wings goes down, same as cloak, just to make sure my team mates won't have to use same potion.

Kidgangster101

Mayrael wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

Ignoring the fact that all the ranged People wanting balance dont complain About cloak which is Minimum as strong as wings in negating Damage (not only ranged but also dots and anything targeted) but only About wings and very few About shimmering, a potential solution that others have talked About multiple times would be to give wings a range at which they dont reflect projectiles anymore so that all builds have the choice of either Fighting the dk head on with their usual abilities or trying to kill them from range but having to deal with the reflect.
Its a solution I like much more than getting rid of one of the few pieces of class identitiy left on dks. Old Inferno gone, Old Cinderstorm gone, Old molten armaments gone I really dont want wings added to that list.

Was posting about range of wings above and personally think it would be much better approach. Why people don't complain as much about cloak is because there are multiple counters to it. In other words you can do something to kill cloaking NB without complete overhaul of your build (for me all I need are detection potions), while to kill a mDK you need to build for it.

Glad your detect pot works perfectly fine while your using "ranged" attacks on a NB cloaking to avoid 100% damage.........

Even though a detect potion needs you to be very close to the NB using cloak

It's not my problem you don't know how to use them. My kill counter shows that most of my victims are... NBs! Further are sorcs, templars aaand then DKs followed only by wardens. My point is if your statement about counters to cloak would be true, NBs would be the least killed class but somehow it's opposite. Counters to cloak are working perfectly fine, all you need to do is to learn how and most important WHEN to use them, that's simple l2p issue.

Ok let's make a deal. Wings stay as they are right now, but we implement potion that disables them for 15s with same range as detection potion. Sounds fair to you?

Edit:
Oh and to make it fair. You will be able still to cast wings to waste resources and whenever I hit you, your wings goes down, same as cloak, just to make sure my team mates won't have to use same potion.

No it's called there are so many nbs because of the gank factor. But because there are so many that means there are a lot of bad nbs that just spam snipe from a distance. I have seen great nbs that fold you in seconds and don't use cloak to run away but instead use it to go on the offensive. There are too many bad ones that complain about wings and don't know how to actually play their perfectly fine class that can go invis lol

Btw me and my wife play our NB we can escape full zergs no problem in cyrodil and in bgs. Nbs are not terrible in bgs a good NB player can go 18+ kills with very little deaths and massive damage. I'm sorry that you get to kill the squishy bad ones but a good one will fold you my friend.

Heimpai

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

Ignoring the fact that all the ranged People wanting balance dont complain About cloak which is Minimum as strong as wings in negating Damage (not only ranged but also dots and anything targeted) but only About wings and very few About shimmering, a potential solution that others have talked About multiple times would be to give wings a range at which they dont reflect projectiles anymore so that all builds have the choice of either Fighting the dk head on with their usual abilities or trying to kill them from range but having to deal with the reflect.
Its a solution I like much more than getting rid of one of the few pieces of class identitiy left on dks. Old Inferno gone, Old Cinderstorm gone, Old molten armaments gone I really dont want wings added to that list.

Was posting about range of wings above and personally think it would be much better approach. Why people don't complain as much about cloak is because there are multiple counters to it. In other words you can do something to kill cloaking NB without complete overhaul of your build (for me all I need are detection potions), while to kill a mDK you need to build for it.

Glad your detect pot works perfectly fine while your using "ranged" attacks on a NB cloaking to avoid 100% damage.........

Even though a detect potion needs you to be very close to the NB using cloak

It's not my problem you don't know how to use them. My kill counter shows that most of my victims are... NBs! Further are sorcs, templars aaand then DKs followed only by wardens. My point is if your statement about counters to cloak would be true, NBs would be the least killed class but somehow it's opposite. Counters to cloak are working perfectly fine, all you need to do is to learn how and most important WHEN to use them, that's simple l2p issue.

Ok let's make a deal. Wings stay as they are right now, but we implement potion that disables them for 15s with same range as detection potion. Sounds fair to you?

Edit:
Oh and to make it fair. You will be able still to cast wings to waste resources and whenever I hit you, your wings goes down, same as cloak, just to make sure my team mates won't have to use same potion.

No it's called there are so many nbs because of the gank factor. But because there are so many that means there are a lot of bad nbs that just spam snipe from a distance. I have seen great nbs that fold you in seconds and don't use cloak to run away but instead use it to go on the offensive. There are too many bad ones that complain about wings and don't know how to actually play their perfectly fine class that can go invis lol

Btw me and my wife play our NB we can escape full zergs no problem in cyrodil and in bgs. Nbs are not terrible in bgs a good NB player can go 18+ kills with very little deaths and massive damage. I'm sorry that you get to kill the squishy bad ones but a good one will fold you my friend.

your last comment smh.. so can any other class, the player just has to be good..oh you can use an invis pot if you want but where is my pot for wings?

psychotic13

Alucardo wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

Wings+block.... won't that then be 125% damage reduction for projectiles?

I think we need to know the full list of changes before we can know if it is to much of a nerf or not.

True but I bet anything NB doesn't lose cloak because so if they don't lose their ability to gank undetected why should we lose our only thing to help against ranged users especially if we don't get mobility. Catching people as a dk is already hard.

You literally have a gap closer that also increases your movement speed.

What gap closer is this? Lol my ultimate leap? Chain isn't a good gap closer and is a very situational move to use.

Yes, empowering chains. And what do you mean by "situational"? It works like any other gap closer, except yours grans major expedition for 4 seconds.
Let's also not forget that reflective plate removes snares, which helps your mobility even more.
Yes, DKs were once stunted in terms of mobility, but now magblades are worse off.

Chains is unusable most of the time, theres a reason you dont see people using it.

kaithuzar

If DK’s were nightblades..
Shade isn’t a viable solution because it’s broke,
Concealed isn’t a viable solution because it’s weak in comparison to other class spammables
Cloak isn’t a viable solution because it’s too easily countered,
Why are you trying to ruin our class defining skills?!? Just delete the class!

ccmedaddy

kaithuzar wrote: »

If DK’s were nightblades..
Shade isn’t a viable solution because it’s broke,
Concealed isn’t a viable solution because it’s weak in comparison to other class spammables
Cloak isn’t a viable solution because it’s too easily countered,
Why are you trying to ruin our class defining skills?!? Just delete the class!

This is funny because these are all things that NB mains say literally all the time on the forums.

Integral1900

They seem to enjoy stripping the fun out of the DK

This is more of a general grumble about my favorite class but it reflects my fears of what the change to wings could mean.

I remember the first time I saw one, ploughing through a dark anchor in Storm Haven, back when soloing an anchor was a seriouse undertaking. It was so beautiful, swinging that huge burning blade, incinerating whole waves of foes or knocking them through the air. Wings out, wreathed in heat, spells ricocheting away. My little baby Templar was so out of her depth but when my health almost ran out, WHAM!!! in with the leap from the other side of the dolmen, throws me a heal without missing a beat, even let me pull the release pinion...

Now the stamina dk is just some poison dribbling knock of, even the magic version is missing something. I remember when I could shroud her in flames that would explode if the foe got to near, now I just get a flaming disco ball. I don’t care about the nerfs anymore, I’ve got used to it, I just wish they would stop meddling with the fun.

A DK should be utterly spectacular, a symphony of violence, thunder and flames... but from what I’ve heard I don’t hold out much hope of this being the case. It says a lot that my current DK is a former tank, now become a solo build, a hybrid with a greatsword and a flame staff, all I want is to look cool, weave in gorgeous skills in between those massive two handed heavy attacks while foes go up in flames, I know she is never going to be able to go back to vet content unless I change the build but I’m okay with that... I just want to feel like a beast, even if that means sticking to easy content... that’s not to much to ask is it?

Kidgangster101

Heimpai wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

Ignoring the fact that all the ranged People wanting balance dont complain About cloak which is Minimum as strong as wings in negating Damage (not only ranged but also dots and anything targeted) but only About wings and very few About shimmering, a potential solution that others have talked About multiple times would be to give wings a range at which they dont reflect projectiles anymore so that all builds have the choice of either Fighting the dk head on with their usual abilities or trying to kill them from range but having to deal with the reflect.
Its a solution I like much more than getting rid of one of the few pieces of class identitiy left on dks. Old Inferno gone, Old Cinderstorm gone, Old molten armaments gone I really dont want wings added to that list.

Was posting about range of wings above and personally think it would be much better approach. Why people don't complain as much about cloak is because there are multiple counters to it. In other words you can do something to kill cloaking NB without complete overhaul of your build (for me all I need are detection potions), while to kill a mDK you need to build for it.

Glad your detect pot works perfectly fine while your using "ranged" attacks on a NB cloaking to avoid 100% damage.........

Even though a detect potion needs you to be very close to the NB using cloak

It's not my problem you don't know how to use them. My kill counter shows that most of my victims are... NBs! Further are sorcs, templars aaand then DKs followed only by wardens. My point is if your statement about counters to cloak would be true, NBs would be the least killed class but somehow it's opposite. Counters to cloak are working perfectly fine, all you need to do is to learn how and most important WHEN to use them, that's simple l2p issue.

Ok let's make a deal. Wings stay as they are right now, but we implement potion that disables them for 15s with same range as detection potion. Sounds fair to you?

Edit:
Oh and to make it fair. You will be able still to cast wings to waste resources and whenever I hit you, your wings goes down, same as cloak, just to make sure my team mates won't have to use same potion.

No it's called there are so many nbs because of the gank factor. But because there are so many that means there are a lot of bad nbs that just spam snipe from a distance. I have seen great nbs that fold you in seconds and don't use cloak to run away but instead use it to go on the offensive. There are too many bad ones that complain about wings and don't know how to actually play their perfectly fine class that can go invis lol

Btw me and my wife play our NB we can escape full zergs no problem in cyrodil and in bgs. Nbs are not terrible in bgs a good NB player can go 18+ kills with very little deaths and massive damage. I'm sorry that you get to kill the squishy bad ones but a good one will fold you my friend.

your last comment smh.. so can any other class, the player just has to be good..oh you can use an invis pot if you want but where is my pot for wings?

Unless your blind your detect pot is actually free when you see us flap our big wings out of our shoulders to signal that you should not throw a projectile at us

See dks are saving people money here in the streets we don't make you use potions because we telegraph our own moves and we want a fight so we allow you to actually use a resource potion against us unlike nbs

kaithuzar

ccmedaddy wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

If DK’s were nightblades..
Shade isn’t a viable solution because it’s broke,
Concealed isn’t a viable solution because it’s weak in comparison to other class spammables
Cloak isn’t a viable solution because it’s too easily countered,
Why are you trying to ruin our class defining skills?!? Just delete the class!

This is funny because these are all things that NB mains say literally all the time on the forums.

You’re right, but for some reason the DK voice seems louder to ZOS, at least they’ve got snare immunity now.

When was the last patch magblade was given a direct buff?
(& don’t even mention that terrible idea to lose health & gain mending... which everyone gets from a resto heavy attack)

technohic

Are you guys still going on in a fight between MagDKs and MagNBs? Its kind of stupid. Wings is not the magnb problem. Its that MagNB has been screwed over from sap tanks and melee to where the 1 thing that is left which isnt great to begin with is nullified by wings. If the rest of the magblade toolkit was desireable other than a purely reflectable ranged spammable, it would be less of an issue.

ccmedaddy

kaithuzar wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

If DK’s were nightblades..
Shade isn’t a viable solution because it’s broke,
Concealed isn’t a viable solution because it’s weak in comparison to other class spammables
Cloak isn’t a viable solution because it’s too easily countered,
Why are you trying to ruin our class defining skills?!? Just delete the class!

This is funny because these are all things that NB mains say literally all the time on the forums.

You’re right, but for some reason the DK voice seems louder to ZOS, at least they’ve got snare immunity now.

When was the last patch magblade was given a direct buff?
(& don’t even mention that terrible idea to lose health & gain mending... which everyone gets from a resto heavy attack)

You do realize this thread is about DKs being nerfed, right? Magblades spent the past few months just crying nonstop on the forums about the nerfs (for good reason, I must add) but DK mains are not allowed to complain about one of the class defining skills being nerfed because "at least they got snare immnity"? Like.. what?

Leave it to forumblades to turn a RIP wings thread into a "being a nightblade is so hard" QQ thread

kaithuzar

ccmedaddy wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

If DK’s were nightblades..
Shade isn’t a viable solution because it’s broke,
Concealed isn’t a viable solution because it’s weak in comparison to other class spammables
Cloak isn’t a viable solution because it’s too easily countered,
Why are you trying to ruin our class defining skills?!? Just delete the class!

This is funny because these are all things that NB mains say literally all the time on the forums.

You’re right, but for some reason the DK voice seems louder to ZOS, at least they’ve got snare immunity now.

When was the last patch magblade was given a direct buff?
(& don’t even mention that terrible idea to lose health & gain mending... which everyone gets from a resto heavy attack)

You do realize this thread is about DKs being nerfed, right? Magblades spent the past few months just crying nonstop on the forums about the nerfs (for good reason, I must add) but DK mains are not allowed to complain about one of the class defining skills being nerfed because "at least they got snare immnity"? Like.. what?

Leave it to forumblades to turn a RIP wings thread into a "being a nightblade is so hard" QQ thread

And here I thought this thread was “a DK’s rebuttal” justifying their stance on how the proposed changes to help balance the game would over dramatically destroy their class & “isn’t necessary because you have the choice not to engage them in a fight”.
~Like #4+years

(Sorry if this doesn’t seem very constructive but years of hearing this, I’m not gonna let this one go)

likecats

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

Wings+block.... won't that then be 125% damage reduction for projectiles?

I think we need to know the full list of changes before we can know if it is to much of a nerf or not.

True but I bet anything NB doesn't lose cloak because so if they don't lose their ability to gank undetected why should we lose our only thing to help against ranged users especially if we don't get mobility. Catching people as a dk is already hard.

You literally have a gap closer that also increases your movement speed.

For those of you that think out gap closer (22m range) will help us get to a target that can hit us from 28m- you probably missed the math somewhere.

Oh! And let’s not forget that DKs can be pewpewed from a wall or rock within 28m... and chains won’t pull us too you. “Target is too high/low.”

Oh- and that major expetition is useless if you can hit anyone with your chains.

Sounds like ranged builds are at a clear advantage.

Just use force pulse.

You might have to give up your main spammable, which also heals you, and without it you might not be able to survive, but just use force pulse.

It's totally not unreasonable to tell a melee build to use force pulse, therefore just use force pulse. Everyone has to make sacrifices. I'm totally not going to admit that a total playstyle shift is an unreasonable sacrifice for anyone to make.

Let's not even go in the loss of class identity by using force pulse, but suck it up and just use force pulse.

Spamming force pulse without any other skills will also not kill any competent player, but who cares right? Just use force pulse.

Counters exist bro, just use force pulse.

Sanguinor2

likecats wrote: »

It's totally not unreasonable to tell a melee build to use force pulse, therefore just use force pulse. Everyone has to make sacrifices.

Had to lol at that one really hard, what kind of melee builds gets countered by wings again? xD

likecats

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

It's totally not unreasonable to tell a melee build to use force pulse, therefore just use force pulse. Everyone has to make sacrifices.

Had to lol at that one really hard, what kind of melee builds gets countered by wings again? xD

The one that has:
1) an execute that is reflectable
2) has its burst skill that is reflectable
3) has its primary DOT that is reflectable.

But having a unreflectable spammable is all that one needs to counter wings. /s

Drako_Ei

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

Wings+block.... won't that then be 125% damage reduction for projectiles?

I think we need to know the full list of changes before we can know if it is to much of a nerf or not.

True but I bet anything NB doesn't lose cloak because so if they don't lose their ability to gank undetected why should we lose our only thing to help against ranged users especially if we don't get mobility. Catching people as a dk is already hard.

Empowering chains?

exeeter702

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

You literally have a gap closer that also increases your movement speed.

And you have multiple class abilities that ignore wings and can endlessly kite Evil wing Spammers. Just because something exists in the class skill tree doesnt mean its good and/or People have bar space for it.
I have started using chains to lock down healers that are far away or other ranged Targets for smallscale pvp and let me tell you dropping stuff like engulfing or ele drain for it feels really really bad.
Not to Mention that chains still sometimes dont work depending on altitude of the target and sometimes just doesnt pull you to them when your target dodges or cloaks despite chains being "undodgeable".

I know finding space on your bar is hard for a mdk, and it is for some other classes too. I'm simply saying that you have options for mobility, so complaining that you have none is simply untrue. If you want more sustain and damage, then you forgo some mobility, if you want mobility then you lose out on some damage or sustain. It's just the way this game works - you can't have your cake and eat it too.
And yes, I'm aware chains is buggy. That doesn't mean it's a bad skill, it just needs to be fixed.

Let's talk about that increased movement speed. So if I'm trying to run you mean I need to use a move to pull someone close to me to get a speed buff?

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

Lol at magdks "bUt chAIn iS bUgGEd" it is a gap close with frigging major expedition and your class have a snare immunity with wings. It works like every other gap close, know how many times I've hit a no cast lotus fan or pop shadow image to get "invalid location"?




Magdks....

It makes us get pulled to the enemy or pull them to us for a speed buff. If we do not meet one of those conditions we don't get a speed buff. If we do try to run away also why do we want the enemy to get near us? Logic.........

Twice now you have innacurately explained the skill in favor of your point. At least understand how the ability works before trying to shoot people down for suggesting it to you.

Empowering chains no matter what, provides the speed buff when you gap close and does not trigger CC immunity on the target. Many claim the chain is buggy but that is no different than similar pathed gap closers like toppling, crit rush and snb charge. Its not a unique weakness to dks and frankly in my personal and long tested expeirence, empowering chains works far more often than it doesnt.