RIP Dragonknight Wings

Urvoth

mursie wrote: »

well the way i see it:

1. DK's won't be able to auto avoid ranged dmg anymore. should help pet sorcs and magblades
2. magblades dmg is going to get further nerfed - should help pet sorcs and dk's
3. steel tornado is going to get nerfed - should help pet sorcs, dk's and magblades
4. pet sorcs are really strong - sounds like they're getting stronger indirectly

thank god for necromancers. we'll need them to combat these pet sorc overlords. of course, joke is on all of us. we're actually beta testing necro's right now... via pet sorcs... we just don't know it.

WHAAAAAAAAA????!!???

mind blown

ZOS should just get rid of pets already, they provide the most unskilled gameplay of any class and waste half a skill line.

Savos_Saren

Alucardo wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

Wings+block.... won't that then be 125% damage reduction for projectiles?

I think we need to know the full list of changes before we can know if it is to much of a nerf or not.

True but I bet anything NB doesn't lose cloak because so if they don't lose their ability to gank undetected why should we lose our only thing to help against ranged users especially if we don't get mobility. Catching people as a dk is already hard.

You literally have a gap closer that also increases your movement speed.

For those of you that think out gap closer (22m range) will help us get to a target that can hit us from 28m- you probably missed the math somewhere.

Oh! And let’s not forget that DKs can be pewpewed from a wall or rock within 28m... and chains won’t pull us too you. “Target is too high/low.”

Oh- and that major expetition is useless if you can hit anyone with your chains.

Sounds like ranged builds are at a clear advantage.

Sanguinor2

I wonder how hard nightblades would rage if zos were to nerf their Damage abilities to only hit for 50% unless in melee because melee builds dont want to Slot counters. Or if, god forbid cloak would not turn invis anymore and only reduce dot Damage by 50%.

kaithuzar

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

I wonder how hard nightblades would rage if zos were to nerf their Damage abilities to only hit for 50% unless in melee because melee builds dont want to Slot counters. Or if, god forbid cloak would not turn invis anymore and only reduce dot Damage by 50%.

Nightblade abilities already hit you for 50% or less even with melee builds b/c
1) no light attacks w/melee
2) every dk I’ve ever seen runs s&b & block mitigation is well over 50%
3) melee means you can hit me with ransack reducing my damage by what? 20%?
4) they are nerfing 8% of the already pathetic damage I’m attempting to deal to you

kaithuzar

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

The skill will certainly be more boring, but have you ever tried to play against wings with a ranged build? Let me tell you, if the dk has half a working brain, it's impossible. Literally. You are a parse dummy and nothing more (especially magnbs).

Wings will definitely not be useless, 50% damage mitigation is huge, they will simply allow you to play against them. And don't forget that you will have an actual 6s uptime and not only 4 projectiles.

Nightblades always had the option to walk away from a Dk fight, and DK had the tools neccessary to keep them at bay. Now the rules are chaned. But I like how this Wings change is defended by magblades more than Dk mains. I wonder how big of a riot there would be if the same treatment was applied to cloak.

Its a unique piece of class identity gone forever. Just like old inferno, it will be gone forever and you'll be left with a skill once powerful, now boring and bland.

Everyone knows ZOS doesn’t keep class defining skills around otherwise I would still have agony on my bar.

IMAGINE...
If nightblades said:
“DK’s always have the choice to walk away & not engage us!”

& imagine us saying that to you for 4+ years...

Jimmy_The_Fixer

kaithuzar wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

I wonder how hard nightblades would rage if zos were to nerf their Damage abilities to only hit for 50% unless in melee because melee builds dont want to Slot counters. Or if, god forbid cloak would not turn invis anymore and only reduce dot Damage by 50%.

Nightblade abilities already hit you for 50% or less even with melee builds b/c
1) no light attacks w/melee
2) every dk I’ve ever seen runs s&b & block mitigation is well over 50%
3) melee means you can hit me with ransack reducing my damage by what? 20%?
4) they are nerfing 8% of the already pathetic damage I’m attempting to deal to you

Hoo boy, wow, there’s a lot to unpack here. So much wrong.

1)What do you mean by “no light attacks with melee”? Weaving works just fine with melee weapons.
2)S&B is quite good on DKs but resto/Destro is also popular for magDK and plenty of sDKs are running 2h/DW
3)Ransack is not a 20% damage mitigation. It gives minor resolve, which is like 2% mitigation, you’re off by an order of magnitude. Plus it’s only really viable on stam variants of DK.
4) Fair enough, I don’t feel like it was necessary to remove minor berserk from relentless.

kaithuzar

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

I wonder how hard nightblades would rage if zos were to nerf their Damage abilities to only hit for 50% unless in melee because melee builds dont want to Slot counters. Or if, god forbid cloak would not turn invis anymore and only reduce dot Damage by 50%.

Nightblade abilities already hit you for 50% or less even with melee builds b/c
1) no light attacks w/melee
2) every dk I’ve ever seen runs s&b & block mitigation is well over 50%
3) melee means you can hit me with ransack reducing my damage by what? 20%?
4) they are nerfing 8% of the already pathetic damage I’m attempting to deal to you

Hoo boy, wow, there’s a lot to unpack here. So much wrong.

1)What do you mean by “no light attacks with melee”? Weaving works just fine with melee weapons.
2)S&B is quite good on DKs but resto/Destro is also popular for magDK and plenty of sDKs are running 2h/DW
3)Ransack is not a 20% damage mitigation. It gives minor resolve, which is like 2% mitigation, you’re off by an order of magnitude. Plus it’s only really viable on stam variants of DK.
4) Fair enough, I don’t feel like it was necessary to remove minor berserk from relentless.

1) I mean magblade melee as in sword/2h light attacks are NOT counted as scaling off of spell damage, they DO scale off of weapon damage which is pointless

2) I’m not saying other things can’t be run, just that blocking mitigation is too high

3) I misspoke I meant deep slash/heroic slash which reduces damage by 15% (minor maim)

#SoMuchRight

Minalan

The devs let the wings stay ridiculously powerful for so long, magDKs feel pretty much entitled to being permanently immune to all ranged damage.

Not only immune, but we all deserve to get it back in the face.

Good job there ZOS. You should have fixed this when you finally buffed DK heals.

50 percent reduction for 6 seconds with no cap is overwhelmingly strong. I don't think half the people angry about it have done the math.

Veg

Checkmath wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

Wings+block.... won't that then be 125% damage reduction for projectiles?

I think we need to know the full list of changes before we can know if it is to much of a nerf or not.

I think you messed up some numbers. You can not just add 50% of wings plus the mitigation numbers of block.

If you get normally hit by a 10k snipe and you got a 50% mitigation from whatever source you have, then ou will get hit by 5k snipe. If you also have wings active, then wings will reduce the damage from snipe first by 50% down to 5k and then will be reduced by the other 50% mitigation down to 2.5k. So two times 50% mitigation is not 100%, but 75%. Otherwise people would take zero damage in mistform

I missed the dev notes. Are they really nerfing one of the worst classes for killing other players or are people spreading misinformation?

tamrielwinner

wings are strong. but strong is ok. strong things need to stay in game to make it good. nerfing it to 50% reduction would be bad, like a "fair" capitulation.

the thing is, they reduced the cost of wings along with buffing it. now, DK are the most played class in my campaign by far.

revert the cost and reduce to 4s again, and you won't have perma winging DK any more. and consider somehow the immovability that you get now too. that's what it was for years, keep it that way instead of messing with something that's been completely fine.

RamiroCruzo

Note: All of the respected braineys above, please note that in PvP, 28 mtrs skill get 13 mtrs buff, so its actually 41 mtrs.

41 mtrs on a mDK assuming we are not snared or stunned is ~12 seconds. About two CC cooldowns just to reach the ranged guy who's attacking us, rather parsing on us. After struggling, getting your HP low, when you reach them, Sorcs will streak away, NBs will use Dark Image, and let them parses begin again.

Kidgangster101

Minalan wrote: »

The devs let the wings stay ridiculously powerful for so long, magDKs feel pretty much entitled to being permanently immune to all ranged damage.

Not only immune, but we all deserve to get it back in the face.

Good job there ZOS. You should have fixed this when you finally buffed DK heals.

50 percent reduction for 6 seconds with no cap is overwhelmingly strong. I don't think half the people angry about it have done the math.

Yeah do the math 100% ranged protection against a class that has no good speed buff or gap closer isn't as good as 50% dmg reduction for a class that has no good speed buff or gap closer.

What your really saying is it is good for us to walk to you at turtles pace while you pelt us for 50% dmg.... And with how high damage is in pvp that's fair? We are your personal target dummy? Lol

If I run at you I waste stamina for you to just CC me and kill. If I try to leave you alone you just follow me keeping yourself the max range possible.

Or better yet any range user could maybe not just use a bow and actually fight us with their rediculious damage output classes have now lol. The counter to wings again exists just like the counter to "cloak" exists. I really really really hope they Nerf cloak my tears will be all over this forum because cloak is so much more busted then wings will ever be. You can see we casted it and just leave us alone or change your fight style or cc us and burst us it's not hard. But a cloak user you never see coming and can kill you before you know they are there. 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

kaithuzar

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

What your really saying is it is good for us to walk to you at turtles pace while you pelt us for 50% dmg.... And with how high damage is in pvp that's fair? We are your personal target dummy? Lol

You mean like tanking every trial boss in the game...
DK is known as the “tank class” right?
I’m pretty sure a trial boss is putting out more dps than I am.

By the way, what’s the range on leap when the Cyrodiil math is done?

Minalan

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

The devs let the wings stay ridiculously powerful for so long, magDKs feel pretty much entitled to being permanently immune to all ranged damage.

Not only immune, but we all deserve to get it back in the face.

Good job there ZOS. You should have fixed this when you finally buffed DK heals.

50 percent reduction for 6 seconds with no cap is overwhelmingly strong. I don't think half the people angry about it have done the math.

Yeah do the math 100% ranged protection against a class that has no good speed buff or gap closer isn't as good as 50% dmg reduction for a class that has no good speed buff or gap closer.

What your really saying is it is good for us to walk to you at turtles pace while you pelt us for 50% dmg.... And with how high damage is in pvp that's fair? We are your personal target dummy? Lol

If I run at you I waste stamina for you to just CC me and kill. If I try to leave you alone you just follow me keeping yourself the max range possible.

Or better yet any range user could maybe not just use a bow and actually fight us with their rediculious damage output classes have now lol. The counter to wings again exists just like the counter to "cloak" exists. I really really really hope they Nerf cloak my tears will be all over this forum because cloak is so much more busted then wings will ever be. You can see we casted it and just leave us alone or change your fight style or cc us and burst us it's not hard. But a cloak user you never see coming and can kill you before you know they are there. 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

No, you'll have to use things like chains, that's in your bloody class kit ffs.

50 percent mitigation is going to stack with your armor, protective jewelry, and defensive set bonuses like maim and minor/major protection. Wear pirate skeleton or bloodspawn,, and slot the psijic ult on your off bar and you will take nearly zero ranged damage from any number of ranged attackers. The little tiny bit you do take you can easily outheal.

It means instead of getting instajibbed by a ranged Zerg, you can pull them to you and kill them one at a time.

I'm sorry you don't get amazing healing PLUS free reflect DPS anymore but what you're getting is actually pretty good. You'll figure out how to stay tanky, use LOS, and yank anyone into your range.

SirAndy

LoveForElderScrolls wrote: »

RIP Dragonknight Wings

Hyperbole much?

Kidgangster101

kaithuzar wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

What your really saying is it is good for us to walk to you at turtles pace while you pelt us for 50% dmg.... And with how high damage is in pvp that's fair? We are your personal target dummy? Lol

You mean like tanking every trial boss in the game...
DK is known as the “tank class” right?
I’m pretty sure a trial boss is putting out more dps than I am.

By the way, what’s the range on leap when the Cyrodiil math is done?

Lol so I need to use my ultimate from long range to have someone just Dodge it and pop a speed move and run or streak or roll and cloak got it

We do weak damage on the Stam side if we go tanky especially since they already said they were going to adjust fury and 7th legion as well. Dk is a tanky class and last I checked this is a mmo with multiple roles just because you don't like tanks or healers because they are harder to kill doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.

Kidgangster101

Minalan wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

The devs let the wings stay ridiculously powerful for so long, magDKs feel pretty much entitled to being permanently immune to all ranged damage.

Not only immune, but we all deserve to get it back in the face.

Good job there ZOS. You should have fixed this when you finally buffed DK heals.

50 percent reduction for 6 seconds with no cap is overwhelmingly strong. I don't think half the people angry about it have done the math.

Yeah do the math 100% ranged protection against a class that has no good speed buff or gap closer isn't as good as 50% dmg reduction for a class that has no good speed buff or gap closer.

What your really saying is it is good for us to walk to you at turtles pace while you pelt us for 50% dmg.... And with how high damage is in pvp that's fair? We are your personal target dummy? Lol

If I run at you I waste stamina for you to just CC me and kill. If I try to leave you alone you just follow me keeping yourself the max range possible.

Or better yet any range user could maybe not just use a bow and actually fight us with their rediculious damage output classes have now lol. The counter to wings again exists just like the counter to "cloak" exists. I really really really hope they Nerf cloak my tears will be all over this forum because cloak is so much more busted then wings will ever be. You can see we casted it and just leave us alone or change your fight style or cc us and burst us it's not hard. But a cloak user you never see coming and can kill you before you know they are there. 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

No, you'll have to use things like chains, that's in your bloody class kit ffs.

50 percent mitigation is going to stack with your armor, protective jewelry, and defensive set bonuses like maim and minor/major protection. Wear pirate skeleton or bloodspawn,, and slot the psijic ult on your off bar and you will take nearly zero ranged damage from any number of ranged attackers. The little tiny bit you do take you can easily outheal.

It means instead of getting instajibbed by a ranged Zerg, you can pull them to you and kill them one at a time.

I'm sorry you don't get amazing healing PLUS free reflect DPS anymore but what you're getting is actually pretty good. You'll figure out how to stay tanky, use LOS, and yank anyone into your range.

So how do I chain a sniper max range applying minor defile and a defile glyph on me? Last I checked there was a big range difference there bud. Oh and let's not talk about levels. If it's not a straight line you can't use chains so that is absolutely useless there thank you very much.

Oh btw you want me to rely on chains but yet necro will have a better chains built into their class buff that last 20 seconds where it pulls the range user in lol.

And with cloak you can instant dodge ranged attacks launched at you that isn't similar to do wings now is it? You DODGE the move lol.

Lastly if you die to wings and you are not a magic NB then you need to learn to play better. I can not tell you the last time I died to wings you can see it casted ffs and you are incredibly smart if you keep doing your pew pew pew (yes I've seen plenty of videos and watched it happened while I had wings up) just so stupid on your end to not go wait he flapped I think it's in my best interest to stop attacking stun or just leave if you don't have a melle option (again if your a stam bow/bow in pvp that is your fault for not having options) you limit yourself there.

heavier

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

Wings+block.... won't that then be 125% damage reduction for projectiles?

I think we need to know the full list of changes before we can know if it is to much of a nerf or not.

True but I bet anything NB doesn't lose cloak because so if they don't lose their ability to gank undetected why should we lose our only thing to help against ranged users especially if we don't get mobility. Catching people as a dk is already hard.

you have gapcloses and full access to mobility sets. I'm not sure what the issue is since templar doesn't have a lot of mobility built into it either, I'm assuming that most mobility comes from things other than class.

Heimpai

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

I wonder how hard nightblades would rage if zos were to nerf their Damage abilities to only hit for 50% unless in melee because melee builds dont want to Slot counters. Or if, god forbid cloak would not turn invis anymore and only reduce dot Damage by 50%.

Sure then lets have wings do the same, only 50% from DoT‘s..Yes make it only affect the DoT‘s, i would gladly lose cloak for this

HowlKimchi

Yes I believe magblades need a buff against wings, but wings losing reflect is totally the WRONG way to go about it.

It's just another "nerf" that makes a class lose its identity. What they could have done is make cripple and only cripple unreflectable from the magblade's tool kit. Regardless of if "this actually makes DKs stronger" or not, this makes the skill utterly boring to use.

Frankly, this is a very ZOS way of implementing changes that I hope was gonna change with the new team. As a magblade main, hopefully this does not push through as I feel for the DKs.

Sanguinor2

Minalan wrote: »

The devs let the wings stay ridiculously powerful for so long, magDKs feel pretty much entitled to being permanently immune to all ranged damage.

Not only immune, but we all deserve to get it back in the face.

Good job there ZOS. You should have fixed this when you finally buffed DK heals.

50 percent reduction for 6 seconds with no cap is overwhelmingly strong. I don't think half the people angry about it have done the math.

Daily reminder that nightblades retain their "ridiculously powerful" skill that negates ranged AND dot Damage.

Minalan wrote: »

No, you'll have to use things like chains, that's in your bloody class kit ffs.

50 percent mitigation is going to stack with your armor, protective jewelry, and defensive set bonuses like maim and minor/major protection. Wear pirate skeleton or bloodspawn,, and slot the psijic ult on your off bar and you will take nearly zero ranged damage from any number of ranged attackers. The little tiny bit you do take you can easily outheal.

It means instead of getting instajibbed by a ranged Zerg, you can pull them to you and kill them one at a time.

I'm sorry you don't get amazing healing PLUS free reflect DPS anymore but what you're getting is actually pretty good. You'll figure out how to stay tanky, use LOS, and yank anyone into your range.

Daily reminder that magblade can just Slot stuff that doesnt get reflected by wings, but if its magblade its wrong, but if its dk its l2p am i Right.

Neloth

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Daily reminder that magblade can just Slot stuff that doesnt get reflected

You continue to repeat this again and again, but honestly its a silly comparison.

Yes, you can slot melee skills on magblade in order to counter DKs and wardens. Concealed, crushing shock, fear, lotus fan, what else? Yes, a long time ago, when path did both healing and dmg, healing ward had its upfront heal, funnel health was a strong source of healing (and thus could be sloted as a healing tool, not just a spammable) and shade was working reliably, it could work.

Will it work now? Just no. Magblade was overnerfed PvP-wise, which reduced already not very well performing melee builds into non-viable, and we both understand it:

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

The other Options you have against wings being weaker doesnt mean that wings Need to be changed but rather that magblade Needs changes to make Building melee rewarding too.

Thus, slotting counters won't help you to kill a good magDK at all, since magDk will out-heal, out-pressure and out-sustain you. If you don't agree, try duelling (just duelling! we are not even talking about viability of melee builds in open world) a DK of the same skill level on your melee magblade, and come back to give us your feedback.

And lastly, if you compared magDKs slotting chains instead of something else for mobility with magsorcs slotting force pulse + cage in order to couter magDKs, I would have agreed to it. Yes, it's a fair tradeoff. Yes, both of them sacrifice one skill for a particular single purpose, and both stay viable against other specs / in open world encounters. But applying the same logic for magblade is silly, don't mind me repeating that again.

Edit: I ducked up with quotes

Kidgangster101

heavier wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

Wings+block.... won't that then be 125% damage reduction for projectiles?

I think we need to know the full list of changes before we can know if it is to much of a nerf or not.

True but I bet anything NB doesn't lose cloak because so if they don't lose their ability to gank undetected why should we lose our only thing to help against ranged users especially if we don't get mobility. Catching people as a dk is already hard.

you have gapcloses and full access to mobility sets. I'm not sure what the issue is since templar doesn't have a lot of mobility built into it either, I'm assuming that most mobility comes from things other than class.

That is why templar and dk are your tanky classes. So people are trying to strip us of that all the time you have to be kidding. Why do you think most Templars and dks are vampires? We use elusive mist to try to escape. But what if you don't want to be a vampire?

I play a tanky dk and a Templar healer as mains and let me tell you it is so much easier to get kills when I get on my stamblade my mag sorc or my stamden. Dk and templar were built to be a stand your ground class and slowly the pew pew pewers of this world has stripped that from them because they were too tanky...... Wanna know what I do against tanky players? Fully charge my ultimate and move on leave the tank unless I got backup.

DPS cried so much about templar healing breath of life got butchered terribly. What is this like the 3rd Nerf to wings or something like that? Learn to play against it. That is what nightblades always say about cloak lol "there are many counters it's a l2p issue" so again how is wings any different?

wheem_ESO

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

Mayrael

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

What you are asking is to make wings multi tool that would allow not only to stay almost untouchable at distance, but also escape and engage tool, in general OP version of mist form without any drawbacks, thanks but no.

I still think that wings would be better if it would work only for skills casted from range greater than 8m, while changing it so 4 reflected projectiles are counted per player.

wheem_ESO

Mayrael wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

What you are asking is to make wings multi tool that would allow not only to stay almost untouchable at distance, but also escape and engage tool, in general OP version of mist form without any drawbacks, thanks but no.

I still think that wings would be better if it would work only for skills casted from range greater than 8m, while changing it so 4 reflected projectiles are counted per player.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned a drastic cost increase? I'm fine with Magicka DKs having some improved mobility and better methods to engage/escape (though I think the gap closer morph of chains is overlooked more than it should be). The main problem making Wings overpowered right now is having such an extended uptime.

Your suggestion would help in some cases, but it'd basically make their escape from other Magicka builds a 100% guaranteed success, unless being zerged with mass Force Pulse and/or Cliff Racers. 'Course, my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion isn't perfect, either, since they'd still generally hard counter other Magicka builds in objective-mode Battlegrounds.

But even ZOS' (supposed) upcoming change isn't what's needed, IMO. A flat 50% damage reduction from projectiles, if it's anywhere near as spammable as the Wings are now, is going to be absurdly overpowered vs most other Magicka setups. Which means that we'll continue to have a situation where Magicka builds get hard countered by numerous different things, while Stam remains the king of small scale fights and Battlegrounds.

Sanguinor2

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Every Magicka class that isn't a Sorcerer lacks mobility options - that's not a purely Mag DK issue. But, that lack of mobility is no more a valid justification for the current incarnation of Wings than it is the current incarnation of my Magicka Warden's Shimmering Shield; both are overpowered and need changes.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of objectivity is really against the concept of Magicka DKs having some active defensive abilities to use when closing the distance to their target. The issue comes about because of just how strong the ability is, and how it's not only used when closing the distance. You can sit on top of another Magicka build "spamming" your Wings, while keeping them perma-snared, wrecking their Stamina with Petrify, and potentially using Talons as well (try fighting a decent Mag DK as a Magicka Warden that isn't running an AOE proc set cheese build, it's an incredibly lopsided fight).

If most of the concern from Mag DK players legitimately centers around closing the distance, surely it would be better to offer more mobility options, and/or change Wings so that it's actually good for that purpose, rather than being a straight up hardcounter vs many other Magicka setups (not just Magblades). Maybe something like:
1) Add a major expedition buff and/or cost reduction for Sprint.
2) Leave the snare/root immunity and reflect in place, perhaps even with a larger number of charges and longer duration.
3) Drastically increase the cost.

Something like that could help with closing the distance (without having to use either morph of Chains), while still giving some benefit when trying to escape. However, it would no longer be something that you could spam while sitting on top of another immobile Magicka build in order to prevent them from fighting back.

Ignoring the fact that all the ranged People wanting balance dont complain About cloak which is Minimum as strong as wings in negating Damage (not only ranged but also dots and anything targeted) but only About wings and very few About shimmering, a potential solution that others have talked About multiple times would be to give wings a range at which they dont reflect projectiles anymore so that all builds have the choice of either Fighting the dk head on with their usual abilities or trying to kill them from range but having to deal with the reflect.
Its a solution I like much more than getting rid of one of the few pieces of class identitiy left on dks. Old Inferno gone, Old Cinderstorm gone, Old molten armaments gone I really dont want wings added to that list.

Alucardo

kaithuzar wrote: »

What I seriously would like to know is how come magblade has an entire tree called “siphoning” & yet nothing in there is as effective as “burning embers”....

...

Even deep breath feels like a better sap ability than sap essence lmao

WoppaBoem

The change is very easy,

x% of reflect always deflect.

This will be nerf but won't kill the full mechanics of this skill. Reduced damage is a buff, while the current form is an active ability. A buff really isn't that much fun to use while active ability with mechanics is.

WoppaBoem

The current proposed change is the sledgehammer, I would hope ZOS comes to its senses and that a tweek is much more preferred than fully killing the mechanics of a skill they designed.