Is Buying Skyshard SP Pay to Win?

Ertosi

Yes it's P2W.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

This doesn't give you an advantage over non-paying players though.

A non-paying player can still unlock all of these SPs. It'll just take them 10 hours longer.

Again, this review a standard definition of PtW:

Starlock wrote: »

For information:

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

Whether or not something can be gained in-game is not a determining factor of if something is PtW or not.

The one and only qualifying factor is if it gives the player an advantage, and free Skill Points, no matter how small of an advantage is most certainly still an advantage.

D0PAMINE

Yes it's P2W.

It's not quite Pay 2 Win as you need to unlock them but it's deffinatly a cash grab towards the popular "Skyshards need to be Account bount" request that players asked for. In all fairness, ZoS is meeting players halfway, but Skyshards are not hard to aquire. Cyrodiil shards may be annoying for some, but even pure PvE players still ventured out and got them anyway on mains and alts.

Mojmir

No it's not P2W.

Ertosi wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

This doesn't give you an advantage over non-paying players though.

A non-paying player can still unlock all of these SPs. It'll just take them 10 hours longer.

Again, this review a standard definition of PtW:

Starlock wrote: »

For information:

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

Whether or not something can be gained in-game is not a determining factor of if something is PtW or not.

The one and only qualifying factor is if it gives the player an advantage, and free Skill Points, no matter how small of an advantage is most certainly still an advantage.

so the crown store potions are pay2win because they didnt go out and kill something for them?

ArenGesus

No it's not P2W.

Facefister wrote: »

@driosketch
Let's say I have the vet-clear achievement of the said dungeon. There is a chest directly at the beginning of the dungeon with several armor items, weapon or jewelry plus a monster helmet whenever I enter it. For the sake of the economy I can't decon nor sell them. I mean, I am capable of clearing it, why grinding it over and over when I can conveniently loot the chest. People who don't want to unlock this feature can grind the dungeons the old way. Afterall, grinding over and over is an insult to me as a gamer.

I would be ok with that. IF you solo the dungeon on that character instead of being carried through it first.

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

ArenGesus wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

@driosketch
Let's say I have the vet-clear achievement of the said dungeon. There is a chest directly at the beginning of the dungeon with several armor items, weapon or jewelry plus a monster helmet whenever I enter it. For the sake of the economy I can't decon nor sell them. I mean, I am capable of clearing it, why grinding it over and over when I can conveniently loot the chest. People who don't want to unlock this feature can grind the dungeons the old way. Afterall, grinding over and over is an insult to me as a gamer.

I would be ok with that. IF you solo the dungeon on that character instead of being carried through it first.

A clear is a clear, why drawing a line?

DenMoria

Yes it's P2W.

Ertosi wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

This doesn't give you an advantage over non-paying players though.

A non-paying player can still unlock all of these SPs. It'll just take them 10 hours longer.

Again, this review a standard definition of PtW:

Starlock wrote: »

For information:

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

Whether or not something can be gained in-game is not a determining factor of if something is PtW or not.

The one and only qualifying factor is if it gives the player an advantage, and free Skill Points, no matter how small of an advantage is most certainly still an advantage.

Not always true.

You could give me every skill point in the game and I wouldn't even be a challenge for most PvPers.

Commancho

I would like to notice that you can buy crown gifts with a gold from players who are non official crown traders (usually it's a 320-350k gold per 1k crowns) so I don't see an issue here.

DenMoria

Yes it's P2W.

Mojmir wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

This doesn't give you an advantage over non-paying players though.

A non-paying player can still unlock all of these SPs. It'll just take them 10 hours longer.

Again, this review a standard definition of PtW:

Starlock wrote: »

For information:

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

Whether or not something can be gained in-game is not a determining factor of if something is PtW or not.

The one and only qualifying factor is if it gives the player an advantage, and free Skill Points, no matter how small of an advantage is most certainly still an advantage.

so the crown store potions are pay2win because they didnt go out and kill something for them?

Apparently. Although it's somewhat more nuanced than that as pointed out earlier in this thread.

_Medusa_

No it's not P2W.

P2W is an item in the cash shop, which cannot be obtained by playing the game, and at the same time makes your character more powerful.

Also, another player spending crowns to buy skyshard unlocks for his/her alts, doesn't affect my game play, or anyone else's.

MaxJrFTW

No it's not P2W.

it's not pay to win, skyshards are just a dull time sink. It is however, an extremely greedy move by ZOS. Skyshards should be account bound by default...

TheShadowScout

No it's not P2W.

Starlock wrote: »

For information:

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

True as it is, but... the main point is the "gain an advantage over those playing for free" thing.

Just getting there faster is not "pay to win", because you do not gain an insurmountable -advantage- you just pay to bypass some of the game (and really, look a bit silly doing that, spending your hard earned money to pay for something you could also have fun -playing- for!) I can see that as an option for those people who have to -work- during the week, and cannot spend as much time as some, but to balance have some extra money each month to burn on their gaming. (yup, guilty, I am one of those, though I tend to never pay for what I can get playing - impatience is not one of my sins after all!)

On the other hand, there are more then enough games where you can buy "premium" items in the chash store that have way better stats then anything you could ever play in-game for. Better starships for your space game, better swords for your fantasy game, better ammo for your wargame, whatever.
THAT is "Pay to Win", because the -only- way to get that particular advantage is... shell out money yourself.

A "shades of gray" area is if the same thing can be gotten with enough time... then it depends. If you can get the same thing in a -reasobable- amount of time, say, a week or two - no sweat, no PtW. If you would have to grind for months to get the same thing the whales pay for in the cash shop... yeah, then the mechanic is expressively designed to open your purse strings!

ESO skyshards? They DO have some impact, so I would cry "foul" if they were given out for nothing... but they -can- quite easily be grabbed one by one through normal playing, just takes a little patience, so... not PtW if they allow a "play or pay" option.

Oh, and one more thing...
...I feel sooooooooooo like:

...right now.

Because Every Time I saw someone make an "Gimme acocunt wide skyshards" thread, I ended up posting "...dey iz gonna make jouse pay big crowns for dat" in some fashion, and lo and behold, what we are taking about here...

mairwen85

Other.

Vampirism/werewolf (cure)... Anyone? Still angry disappointed with that tbh

driosketch

Other.

Facefister wrote: »

@driosketch
Let's say I have the vet-clear achievement of the said dungeon. There is a chest directly at the beginning of the dungeon with several armor items, weapon or jewelry plus a monster helmet whenever I enter it. For the sake of the economy I can't decon nor sell them. I mean, I am capable of clearing it, why grinding it over and over when I can conveniently loot the chest. People who don't want to unlock this feature can grind the dungeons the old way. Afterall, grinding over and over is an insult to me as a gamer.

There are few details to work out, but as long as you were able to complete the dungeon once already, the chest, like the bosses, is RNG, and everything else being equal, this isn't giving you an advantage in gameplay over the non-paying player. You aren't getting on any leaderboards, and when new content drops, I'd argue the "practiced" player will be better able to complete it.

Fleshreaper

No it's not P2W.

You see all these, "No, it P2W, cause each character should earn their own achievements." When you hear that, bring up each character should earn their own Champion Points, then. Watch them fold like a cheap suit. If Shyshard and skill point sharing is P2W then, so is champion point sharing. Sorry, you don't get to have it both ways. Because the only difference is "your" opinion as to what is an acceptable grind.

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

Grinding dungeons is also a dull timesink, so, where is my chest?

Turelus

No it's not P2W.

mairwen85 wrote: »

Vampirism/werewolf (cure)... Anyone? Still angry disappointed with that tbh

I still think it's BS and ZOS is abusing new players lack of knowledge, but not much I can do past expressing my displeasure with it being there.

ccmedaddy

No it's not P2W.

This is the kind of P2W I can get behind. Now make one for Mages Guild and Psijic skills ZO$ plz.

MaxJrFTW

No it's not P2W.

Facefister wrote: »

Grinding dungeons is also a dull timesink, so, where is my chest?

Dungeons are not a time sink, skyshards literally are.

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

driosketch wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

@driosketch
Let's say I have the vet-clear achievement of the said dungeon. There is a chest directly at the beginning of the dungeon with several armor items, weapon or jewelry plus a monster helmet whenever I enter it. For the sake of the economy I can't decon nor sell them. I mean, I am capable of clearing it, why grinding it over and over when I can conveniently loot the chest. People who don't want to unlock this feature can grind the dungeons the old way. Afterall, grinding over and over is an insult to me as a gamer.

There are few details to work out, but as long as you were able to complete the dungeon once already, the chest, like the bosses, is RNG, and everything else being equal, this isn't giving you an advantage in gameplay over the non-paying player. You aren't getting on any leaderboards, and when new content drops, I'd argue the "practiced" player will be better able to complete it.

Exactly, I wasn't thinking about a specific item but the x amount of items equal to the bosses. Let's say 3 bosses + endboss means 3 armor pieces + jewelry/weapon with monster helmet. Can't be sold, deconned, traded and they all have random traits. Requirements are atleast a vet-clear. When you loot it, all achievements and leaderboards are disabled for that specific dungeon/trial until you reset it.

Ertosi

Yes it's P2W.

Mojmir wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

This doesn't give you an advantage over non-paying players though.

A non-paying player can still unlock all of these SPs. It'll just take them 10 hours longer.

Again, this review a standard definition of PtW:

Starlock wrote: »

For information:

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

Whether or not something can be gained in-game is not a determining factor of if something is PtW or not.

The one and only qualifying factor is if it gives the player an advantage, and free Skill Points, no matter how small of an advantage is most certainly still an advantage.

so the crown store potions are pay2win because they didnt go out and kill something for them?

For anyone who feels said potions are better than craftable ones, yes, they would be. Personally I consider Crown Store Potions trash and instantly junk them as soon as getting them from Daily Log-in Rewards. Others have made a valid argument that they are quite useful while leveling characters as they have no level restrictions; that part is certainly an advantage which would meet the definition of P2W.

For a more clear-cut argument of existing items, you should have gone with Riding Lessons as those do give a clear advantage with respect to mobility and positioning and therefore meets the definition of P2W. An advantage, no matter how small, is still an advantage.

Carbonised

Selling a full 810 CP maxed out character with fully leveled up skills, guilds and equipped with full gold meta gear isn't technically pay to win either. Since technically you can get the same stuff via ingame means.

But, we all know ZOS are going to keep puching the boundary of what they will sell in their store, and you really only have to look to EA games and Ubisoft games to see what games will look like when balancing and gameplay is designed around ingame store purchases that are technically not P2W because you are technically not forced to buy them.

Quaesivi

Other.

Is it pay to win? Honestly do not care. What entices me is that if I get to buy off the Cyro skyshards, you know, ones locked behind gates that would require you to get a good zerg party or be lucky, I do not care about the rest.

haelene

No it's not P2W.

DenMoria wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

For the love of all things good in this world, please stop using this term to mean "things are buyable with real money".

P2W = buying things with real money that aren't available otherwise.

You mean Crowns aren't real money?

My CC Statement says otherwise!

?

Where did I make any assertion that crowns aren't real money? I simply stated that buying things with money isn't enough for a system to be P2W. Those things also must be unavailable by other means, hence my bolded wording in my original statement.

Skyshards are very much available without paying money.

FrancisCrawford

No it's not P2W.

Not even close.

• Getting enough skyshards for any particular build is EASY, if you don't mind spending the time. This is only about convenience.
• You can only be awarded skyshards you've gotten before on another character, right? This is only about convenience.
• Probably, this will be massively overpriced, so that almost no serious min-maxers will use it anyway.

DenMoria

Yes it's P2W.

haelene wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

For the love of all things good in this world, please stop using this term to mean "things are buyable with real money".

P2W = buying things with real money that aren't available otherwise.

You mean Crowns aren't real money?

My CC Statement says otherwise!

?

Where did I make any assertion that crowns aren't real money? I simply stated that buying things with money isn't enough for a system to be P2W. Those things also must be unavailable by other means, hence my bolded wording in my original statement.

Skyshards are very much available without paying money.

True, but, if I could pay "real" money or "crowns" to avoid the grind, I would.

haelene

No it's not P2W.

Ertosi wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

For the love of all things good in this world, please stop using this term to mean "things are buyable with real money".

P2W = buying things with real money that aren't available otherwise.

Correction:

P2W = buying things with real money that give you an advantage.


Similar, many justify such things by focusing on "Win", and while things like outright buying Skill Points doesn't let you outright win, it most certainly gives you an advantage over those who aren't spending the cash.

No, you must be given an advantage people who don't spend money can't get. You can get skyshards without money. So no, this is not P2W.

DenMoria

Yes it's P2W.

haelene wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

For the love of all things good in this world, please stop using this term to mean "things are buyable with real money".

P2W = buying things with real money that aren't available otherwise.

Correction:

P2W = buying things with real money that give you an advantage.


Similar, many justify such things by focusing on "Win", and while things like outright buying Skill Points doesn't let you outright win, it most certainly gives you an advantage over those who aren't spending the cash.

No, you must be given an advantage people who don't spend money can't get. You can get skyshards without money. So no, this is not P2W.

I'll give 'em an advantage. Don't spend money. Lose.

haelene

No it's not P2W.

DenMoria wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

For the love of all things good in this world, please stop using this term to mean "things are buyable with real money".

P2W = buying things with real money that aren't available otherwise.

Correction:

P2W = buying things with real money that give you an advantage.


Similar, many justify such things by focusing on "Win", and while things like outright buying Skill Points doesn't let you outright win, it most certainly gives you an advantage over those who aren't spending the cash.

No, you must be given an advantage people who don't spend money can't get. You can get skyshards without money. So no, this is not P2W.

I'll give 'em an advantage. Don't spend money. Lose.

So you're saying those skill points are unavailable without spending money? Because that's the only what your argument makes sense.

technohic

Yes it's P2W.

If you would consider being able to buy a leveled character pay to win, then this is pay to win.

I find having to do PVE to get armor sets an inconvenience. Can I have those in the crown store?

I find it inconvenient to be in a guild then pay fees so that the guild can bid on a vendor to actually sell things. Can I just buy a vendor for myself in the crown store?

I mean whatever. Throw that on there and might as well sell my mount skills from my main to be passed on to other characters. I'd want that and buy it, but its definitely pay to win. It's all stuff many wanted account bound but why do that when you can sell it on the crown store?

MLGProPlayer

No it's not P2W.

Ertosi wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

This doesn't give you an advantage over non-paying players though.

A non-paying player can still unlock all of these SPs. It'll just take them 10 hours longer.

Again, this review a standard definition of PtW:

Starlock wrote: »

For information:

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

Whether or not something can be gained in-game is not a determining factor of if something is PtW or not.

The one and only qualifying factor is if it gives the player an advantage, and free Skill Points, no matter how small of an advantage is most certainly still an advantage.

By that definition, horse riding lessons are also P2W since mount speed and stamina is critical in PvP. Research scrolls are also P2W since you can craft certain gear more quickly than others (who either have to spend in-game gold to buy it from other players or wait for their research timers to complete).

Convenience items to avoid time sinks are common in all games. They are not considered P2W by most gamers because they really aren't. They only become P2W if the grind they avoid is insurmountable otherwise.