Is Buying Skyshard SP Pay to Win?

Linaleah

Yes it's P2W.

selling these actual gameplay unlocks on a store? even with a qualifier of having done at least once, this is just... its edging REAL close to that line. I don't mind being able to unlock skyshards on alts if you did them on main, but i DO mind being charged real money for it.

you CAN still get skyshards the old fashioned way, so its borderline, but its real REAL close to going over that line, ZoS. I think its a horrible idea to monetize this like that.

and yes I am aware of riding lessons and research scrolls. the only reason I wasn't sideeying research scrolls as much was due to a version of them being available for writ vouchers and as such - earnable in game. but this is REALLY pushing it.

MLGProPlayer

No it's not P2W.

Facefister wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

@driosketch
Let's say I have the vet-clear achievement of the said dungeon. There is a chest directly at the beginning of the dungeon with several armor items, weapon or jewelry plus a monster helmet whenever I enter it. For the sake of the economy I can't decon nor sell them. I mean, I am capable of clearing it, why grinding it over and over when I can conveniently loot the chest. People who don't want to unlock this feature can grind the dungeons the old way. Afterall, grinding over and over is an insult to me as a gamer.

Because completing a dungeon is actual skill-based content.

Running to a point on a map does not challenge your skill as a player in any capacity.

Clearing any vet dungeon on vet isn't a challenge for me either, that's not an argument you're presenting.

Clearing a dungeon is a test of skill. Obtaining a skyshard is not.

It's as simple as that.

Ertosi

Yes it's P2W.

haelene wrote: »

No, you must be given an advantage people who don't spend money can't get. You can get skyshards without money. So no, this is not P2W.

As you seem unable to scroll up and read, I'll repost:

Ertosi wrote: »

For information:

'In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

Whether or not something can be gained in-game is not a determining factor of if something is PtW or not.

The one and only qualifying factor is if it gives the player an advantage, and free Skill Points, no matter how small of an advantage is most certainly still an advantage.

It gives an advantage, so it is PtW. Full stop.

ArenGesus

No it's not P2W.

Facefister wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

@driosketch
Let's say I have the vet-clear achievement of the said dungeon. There is a chest directly at the beginning of the dungeon with several armor items, weapon or jewelry plus a monster helmet whenever I enter it. For the sake of the economy I can't decon nor sell them. I mean, I am capable of clearing it, why grinding it over and over when I can conveniently loot the chest. People who don't want to unlock this feature can grind the dungeons the old way. Afterall, grinding over and over is an insult to me as a gamer.

I would be ok with that. IF you solo the dungeon on that character instead of being carried through it first.

A clear is a clear, why drawing a line?

A clear is NOT a clear. Achieving something on the backs of others isn't an achievement that you earned. Thankfully this doesn't apply to VMA. But if that's how you're going to get through a dungeon, then you should be forced to find a group to carry you every time you run it. Still nothing stopping you from getting what you want from it, but you haven't actually demonstrated that it's trivial for you to get it.

Finding skyshards is not an achievement. It's a trivial easter egg hunt that requires no skill, no thinking, no actual game play. Sets are legitimately earned, either by playing enough to acquire them or finding somebody to carry your sorry butt to the finish line. The game should offer incentive for playing, not for running around from point A to B while you have the volume down and watching netflix on the side.

MartiniDaniels

Other.

It's obvious that this is not P2W and just a cash grab.
Poll created as prove "that is not a P2W" to draw attention from cash grab, results were known from very beginning.

haelene

No it's not P2W.

technohic wrote: »

If you would consider being able to buy a leveled character pay to win, then this is pay to win.

I find having to do PVE to get armor sets an inconvenience. Can I have those in the crown store?

I find it inconvenient to be in a guild then pay fees so that the guild can bid on a vendor to actually sell things. Can I just buy a vendor for myself in the crown store?

I mean whatever. Throw that on there and might as well sell my mount skills from my main to be passed on to other characters. I'd want that and buy it, but its definitely pay to win.

I don't consider being able to buy a leveled character pay to win because it's not pay to win. Is it acceptable? Eh, that can be argued.

Ertosi wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

No, you must be given an advantage people who don't spend money can't get. You can get skyshards without money. So no, this is not P2W.

As you seem unable to scroll up and read, I'll repost:

Ertosi wrote: »

For information:

'In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

Whether or not something can be gained in-game is not a determining factor of if something is PtW or not.

The one and only qualifying factor is if it gives the player an advantage, and free Skill Points, no matter how small of an advantage is most certainly still an advantage.

It gives an advantage, so it is PtW. Full stop.

There's literally no advantage if both players can get the skill points.

There's just two ways of getting it. One involves money. One does not.

Full stop.

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

Besides renting bots

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

@driosketch
Let's say I have the vet-clear achievement of the said dungeon. There is a chest directly at the beginning of the dungeon with several armor items, weapon or jewelry plus a monster helmet whenever I enter it. For the sake of the economy I can't decon nor sell them. I mean, I am capable of clearing it, why grinding it over and over when I can conveniently loot the chest. People who don't want to unlock this feature can grind the dungeons the old way. Afterall, grinding over and over is an insult to me as a gamer.

Because completing a dungeon is actual skill-based content.

Running to a point on a map does not challenge your skill as a player in any capacity.

Clearing any vet dungeon on vet isn't a challenge for me either, that's not an argument you're presenting.

Clearing a dungeon is a test of skill. Obtaining a skyshard is not.

It's as simple as that.

No, obtaining a skyshard is still a test of skill and patience, not the same amount of a dungeon but still it is. Obtaining them in PvP areas moreso, especially in IC. For some it may be a mundane task but for others a greater challenge. It's a spectrum.
If you don't like it, don't buy it, you can still farm it the old fashioned way.

MLGProPlayer

No it's not P2W.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

It's obvious that this is not P2W and just a cash grab.
Poll created as prove "that is not a P2W" to draw attention from cash grab, results were known from very beginning.

This I can agree with.

Much like mount training and research scrolls, ZOS is using frustrating time sinks to make money.

Turelus

No it's not P2W.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

It's obvious that this is not P2W and just a cash grab.
Poll created as prove "that is not a P2W" to draw attention from cash grab, results were known from very beginning.

Wait, I made a poll to draw attention away from it being a cash grab?

DenMoria

Yes it's P2W.

ArenGesus wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

@driosketch
Let's say I have the vet-clear achievement of the said dungeon. There is a chest directly at the beginning of the dungeon with several armor items, weapon or jewelry plus a monster helmet whenever I enter it. For the sake of the economy I can't decon nor sell them. I mean, I am capable of clearing it, why grinding it over and over when I can conveniently loot the chest. People who don't want to unlock this feature can grind the dungeons the old way. Afterall, grinding over and over is an insult to me as a gamer.

I would be ok with that. IF you solo the dungeon on that character instead of being carried through it first.

A clear is a clear, why drawing a line?

A clear is NOT a clear. Achieving something on the backs of others isn't an achievement that you earned. Thankfully this doesn't apply to VMA. But if that's how you're going to get through a dungeon, then you should be forced to find a group to carry you every time you run it. Still nothing stopping you from getting what you want from it, but you haven't actually demonstrated that it's trivial for you to get it.

Finding skyshards is not an achievement. It's a trivial easter egg hunt that requires no skill, no thinking, no actual game play. Sets are legitimately earned, either by playing enough to acquire them or finding somebody to carry your sorry butt to the finish line. The game should offer incentive for playing, not for running around from point A to B while you have the volume down and watching netflix on the side.

It already does provide incentive to pay. It's called The Grind.

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

ArenGesus wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

@driosketch
Let's say I have the vet-clear achievement of the said dungeon. There is a chest directly at the beginning of the dungeon with several armor items, weapon or jewelry plus a monster helmet whenever I enter it. For the sake of the economy I can't decon nor sell them. I mean, I am capable of clearing it, why grinding it over and over when I can conveniently loot the chest. People who don't want to unlock this feature can grind the dungeons the old way. Afterall, grinding over and over is an insult to me as a gamer.

I would be ok with that. IF you solo the dungeon on that character instead of being carried through it first.

A clear is a clear, why drawing a line?

A clear is NOT a clear. Achieving something on the backs of others isn't an achievement that you earned. Thankfully this doesn't apply to VMA. But if that's how you're going to get through a dungeon, then you should be forced to find a group to carry you every time you run it. Still nothing stopping you from getting what you want from it, but you haven't actually demonstrated that it's trivial for you to get it.

Finding skyshards is not an achievement. It's a trivial easter egg hunt that requires no skill, no thinking, no actual game play. Sets are legitimately earned, either by playing enough to acquire them or finding somebody to carry your sorry butt to the finish line. The game should offer incentive for playing, not for running around from point A to B while you have the volume down and watching netflix on the side.

Why are you implying that I need a carry? I have numerous vet-frostvault clears and our tank is still moaning about his sword. It's a convenience. And system-wise a clear is a clear, your sense of "earning" it doesn't matter.

Sheezabeast

Yes it's P2W.

If P2W stood for Pandering2Whales

Since it’s achievement locked, it’ll likely not be giftable, so people won’t be able to use gold to buy crowns.

I don’t like where this is heading but change is change

ArenGesus

No it's not P2W.

Facefister wrote: »

No, obtaining a skyshard is still a test of skill and patience, not the same amount of a dungeon but still it is. Obtaining them in PvP areas moreso, especially in IC. For some it may be a mundane task but for others a greater challenge. It's a spectrum.
If you don't like it, don't buy it, you can still farm it the old fashioned way.

But you'll still have to have actually gotten the shards before you can buy them for an alt - so the IC achievement still stands as a legit achievement. You just wouldn't have to get it on all alts. But you wouldn't need to anyway because there isn't a reason to collect every skill point in the game for any character. At that point you're doing it for the actual achievement alone and there is no practical benefit to acquiring them on alts, earned/paid for/otherwise.

But really, if you think obtaining a skyshard is a test of skill... I don't know how to finish this sentence. It's just not.

haelene

No it's not P2W.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

It's obvious that this is not P2W and just a cash grab.

Ding ding ding! Definitely a cash grab. Absolutely something that made me raise my eyebrows in concern. Certainly something we should let ZOS know we're not okay with. Not because it exists on it's own, but because it doesn't exist in a vacuum - and ZOS, like other companies, will take advantage of customers and make systems more painful to increase the likelihood of people making a purchase.

Still not P2W. Still doesn't give Has-An-Open-Wallet an advantage over One-Who-Has-Patience.

Siohwenoeht

Other.

This is not p2w even as disappointing it is, I have to admit that.

Putting an op race or class behind a paywall would be p2w for example. That's why imperials will never be bis but manageable and classes like warden and necro will be as balanced as they can be and nerfed quickly if found to be over performing.

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

ArenGesus wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

No, obtaining a skyshard is still a test of skill and patience, not the same amount of a dungeon but still it is. Obtaining them in PvP areas moreso, especially in IC. For some it may be a mundane task but for others a greater challenge. It's a spectrum.
If you don't like it, don't buy it, you can still farm it the old fashioned way.

But you'll still have to have actually gotten the shards before you can buy them for an alt - so the IC achievement still stands as a legit achievement. You just wouldn't have to get it on all alts. But you wouldn't need to anyway because there isn't a reason to collect every skill point in the game for any character. At that point you're doing it for the actual achievement alone and there is no practical benefit to acquiring them on alts, earned/paid for/otherwise.

But really, if you think obtaining a skyshard is a test of skill... I don't know how to finish this sentence. It's just not.

And you still have to vet-clear that dungeon. Maybe I need those IC skyshards? Your argument of "not a test of skill" falls flat when I need those IC skyshard.

ArenGesus

No it's not P2W.

Facefister wrote: »

Why are you implying that I need a carry? I have numerous vet-frostvault clears and our tank is still moaning about his sword. It's a convenience. And system-wise a clear is a clear, your sense of "earning" it doesn't matter.

I'm not implying anything, I'm answering the question. I think you should have to solo the dungeon first because it's the only actually achievement that would show you and you alone have done this thing and proven that you can do it again at will whenever you want. Under those conditions the convenience of just having access to the sets dropped there start to make sense because they're all but yours if you want them anyway. Under any other condition, group play is required and, given that this is an MMO, group play is (and should be) encouraged. The only reason to let you around this should be if you've proven a group isn't necessary for you to gain access to it. Like skyshards.

getemshauna

No it's not P2W.

Ertosi wrote: »

getemshauna wrote: »

You don't understand meaning of P2W. Even if they would add vMA weapons to Crown Store, it still won't be P2W.

Quite the opposite. As Starlock posted before, the definition of P2W is quite clear:

Starlock wrote: »

For information:

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

Directly buying Skill Points most certainly allows a paying player to gain a gameplay advantage. That is the definition of PTW.

All arguments to the contrary miss this fundamental definition, and most are merely justifications for those wishing to buy convivence for characters who have not earned it.

It's not an advantage, because you can get Skyshards PLAYING THE GAME.
P2W is a benefit you can gain using only real money.

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

ArenGesus wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

Why are you implying that I need a carry? I have numerous vet-frostvault clears and our tank is still moaning about his sword. It's a convenience. And system-wise a clear is a clear, your sense of "earning" it doesn't matter.

I'm not implying anything, I'm answering the question. I think you should have to solo the dungeon first because it's the only actually achievement that would show you and you alone have done this thing and proven that you can do it again at will whenever you want. Under those conditions the convenience of just having access to the sets dropped there start to make sense because they're all but yours if you want them anyway. Under any other condition, group play is required and, given that this is an MMO, group play is (and should be) encouraged. The only reason to let you around this should be if you've proven a group isn't necessary for you to gain access to it. Like skyshards.

You're doing mental gymnastics again. No matter how, a clear is a clear.

ArenGesus

No it's not P2W.

DenMoria wrote: »

It already does provide incentive to pay. It's called The Grind.

Well I guess different folks have different incentives, don't they? The grind certainly isn't mine. That doesn't mean I'll pay for this in the crown store because I don't know what fatastical value ZOS will believe it has yet, but I play for other reasons. If you play for the grind, that's great - keep grinding. Literally nothing changes for you.

Mix

No it's not P2W.

I am saying no because in order to buy them you will need the achievement on another character first. It has been a major complaint that people find it tedious to go collecting skyshards on alts. This simply means if you don't have time or don't want to run all over the map for them you can spend money to do so and then move on to whatever activity in game that you enjoy.

Time Saving and Convenience isn't Pay to Win to me.

I think when adding new classes (and no class-change ability) this IS the sort of thing that needs to be done to allow people to "catch up" to the rest of the player base. It does suck that there isn't an option added that would allow completion of a different activity to unlock skyshards instead of just crowns. (Running certain dungeons for tokens to trade for skyshard unlocks for instance)

Ertosi

Yes it's P2W.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

This doesn't give you an advantage over non-paying players though.

A non-paying player can still unlock all of these SPs. It'll just take them 10 hours longer.

Again, this review a standard definition of PtW:

Starlock wrote: »

For information:

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

Whether or not something can be gained in-game is not a determining factor of if something is PtW or not.

The one and only qualifying factor is if it gives the player an advantage, and free Skill Points, no matter how small of an advantage is most certainly still an advantage.

By that definition, horse riding lessons are also P2W since mount speed and stamina is critical in PvP. Research scrolls are also P2W since you can craft certain gear more quickly than others (who either have to spend in-game gold to buy it from other players or wait for their research timers to complete).

Convenience items to avoid time sinks are common in all games. They are not considered P2W by most gamers because they really aren't. They only become P2W if the grind they avoid is insurmountable.

Your first paragraph is correct. As I've already posted above, those things do give an advantage, so they are PtW.

Whether or not the grind they avoid is insurmountable is not a determining factor of if something is PtW.

It gives an advantage, so it is PtW. Full stop.

---

1. The premise of this thread is the following: Is Buying Skyshard SP Pay to Win?
2. PtW is defined by anything purchased with cash that gives an advantage. Anything.
3. Buying Skill Points gives an advantage.
4. Therefore buying Skill Points is PtW.

That's the argument in full, all else (such as the size of any said advantage, or if something is otherwise achievable in-game) is irrelevant.

Now what you bring up about currently available cash-shop items is insightful but merits a completely different discussion; one which people should be careful not to confuse. By strict definition Research Scrolls and Riding Lessons are PtW, as they do give an advantage, but I would argue that they are very innocuous examples of PtW, especially given how easy they are to gain in-game. Similar to those, I truly hope ZOS does introduce the ability to buy Skill Points, that they do so in an equally innocuous manner, but such things can quite quickly become a slippery slope.

To expand upon Research Scrolls and Riding Lessons being PtW, many other cash-shop items are as well such as Werewolf and Vampire. It would be a stretch, but one could even make a valid argument for cash-shop housing as being PtW given a new player could gain advantage by buying a house, buying all crafting stations, giving them a jump start on their character (ie advantage).

The only things I can think of (off the top of my head) in the cash shop which do not meet the strict definition of PtW are purely cosmetic items such as costumes, hats, mounts, pets, and dyes.

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

ArenGesus wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

It already does provide incentive to pay. It's called The Grind.

Well I guess different folks have different incentives, don't they? The grind certainly isn't mine. That doesn't mean I'll pay for this in the crown store because I don't know what fatastical value ZOS will believe it has yet, but I play for other reasons. If you play for the grind, that's great - keep grinding. Literally nothing changes for you.

And literally changes for you when I get my chest at the dungeon. So why is equipment, which can be farmed, such an issue?

ArenGesus

No it's not P2W.

Facefister wrote: »

And you still have to vet-clear that dungeon. Maybe I need those IC skyshards? Your argument of "not a test of skill" falls flat when I need those IC skyshard.

So go get them? I don't know what you're saying - if you feel you need them, just walk over and F on it.

WeerW3ir

Yes it's P2W.

Its a cash grab and also p2w. Whats next? You will be Able to purchase lvl 50 chars? Its not right. I trusted in this game but this is just utterly facepalm. I dont care if they selling overpriced mounts or anything like that. But cmon. Mmo of the Year for several years now. and they considering this??

firedrgn

Where did this info come from would like to read up .. thanks

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

ArenGesus wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

And you still have to vet-clear that dungeon. Maybe I need those IC skyshards? Your argument of "not a test of skill" falls flat when I need those IC skyshard.

So go get them? I don't know what you're saying - if you feel you need them, just walk over and F on it.

I am telling you that you didn't present a single fact why "the chest at the start" is worse than instant Skyshards. Infact, they're both on the same spectrum and when ZoS is implementing those instant Skyshards they should also consider the chest unlock.

haelene

No it's not P2W.

Ertosi wrote: »

2. PtW is defined by anything purchased with cash that gives an advantage. Anything.

I didn't realize the skill points (or werewolf, or vampire, or whatever) available in the crown store have some magical properties that don't come with the one's you get by playing the game. Huh. They must've left that out of the announcement.

So when character A (who took the time to collect said skill points) goes up against character B (who bought them), character B is going to have an advantage in battle regardless of the fact they both have the same amount of skill points! Fascinating. Tell me more!

ArenGesus

No it's not P2W.

Facefister wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

And literally changes for you when I get my chest at the dungeon. So why is equipment, which can be farmed, such an issue?

It doesn't change. I consider running a dungeon playing. I don't consider riding a horse from A to B playing. And if it's cheap enough, I'll be one who appreciates being able to avoid riding a horse from A to B so I can focus on running dungeons. But hey, if you DO consider riding a horse playing, I've got no beef with that whatsoever and nothing is going to stop you from doing it.

Also, you still have to do it once, so it's not like anybody gets to just buy skillpoints they haven't at some point earned. Same with my stance on dungeon sets - earn it once and then have it on all accounts (which you already have, BTW). I'm just drawing a distinction on what it means to "earn" it. I ride around all on my lonesone to collect skyshards, so I'm not suggesting anything different for dungeons.

I really don't get why this is such a big topic to be honest. It's not like you can use those skillpoints without leveling the skill lines and the skills themselves anyway. It just gives people a choice in how they go about leveling them - I can now start an alt, get it to 10 and then finishing leveling everything Cyrodiil, battlegrounds, dungeons, etc and not have to go chasing down shards. What's the big deal?

Ertosi

Yes it's P2W.

haelene wrote: »

I didn't realize the skill points (or werewolf, or vampire, or whatever) available in the crown store have some magical properties that don't come with the one's you get by playing the game. Huh. They must've left that out of the announcement.

Again:

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items
who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items
who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items

That is a very standard definition of PtW and it specifically states that whether or not something can be gained in-game is not a determining factor of if something is PtW or not.

The one and only qualifying factor is if it gives the player an advantage, and free Skill Points, no matter how small of an advantage is most certainly still an advantage.