Is Buying Skyshard SP Pay to Win?

JayAstrophel

Yes it's P2W.

Though my vote says 'pay to win' I do think it's more 'pay to be lazy about it'. I will not be buying this for any of my characters - the Skyshard hunt is really fun for me. If someone wants to spend real money on it, though, then I guess that's okay for them

driosketch

Other.

Facefister wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

For the love of all things good in this world, please stop using this term to mean "things are buyable with real money".

P2W = buying things with real money that aren't available otherwise.

Correction:

P2W = buying things with real money that give you an advantage.


Similar, many justify such things by focusing on "Win", and while things like outright buying Skill Points doesn't let you outright win, it most certainly gives you an advantage over those who aren't spending the cash.

Is saving time an advantage when there is a hard cap on progression that can be earned freely in game? You will get ahead of some players, temporarily. Other players are already capped, however, so you are at best catching up, but you can't get beyond them.

So what speaks against a chest full of loot at the beginning of the dungeon? A clear achievement should attest my ability to clear that dungeon, why should I run it through over and over again. I am paying for saving time.

I don't quite follow the analogy. Is this the final chest reward available at the start for anyone who completed the dungeon? Or are you buying a rng crate from crown store of the final reward per character if you have completed the dungeon before?

On the latter, technically no because, aside from being a colossal waste of money, you wouldn't be buying a guarantee vs in game where there is no guarantee of specific reward.

If you are talking about buying a specific drop, than yes that would be P2W. Unless there is a token system or other means to get a specific item added in game, this would be imbalanced because no matter how improbable, it's still possibe the item you want will never drop from RNG.

TheShadowScout

No it's not P2W.

Pay to Win means getting an advantage through the cash shop you -cannot- get through normal playing.

This is not an extra advantage over normal playing. This is just getting something you can play for in a different way - paying for it.

Just like the riding lessons, or the motiv books.
No more. No less.

Wildberryjack

Yes it's P2W.

What's next? Paid character boosts complete with all achievements you have on your main? What's the point in playing a game if you're not going to PLAY it? Why bother making a game if you give players a way to skip playing it? No. Just no.

ghastley

Other.

This is making me think where the middle ground really lies.

On the one hand, it's a grind to repeat the same build-up on every character on your account, and you'd like to re-use the player skills across all the characters, so this looks like a way to do it. The alt needs to qualify for using the skill point, by raising the skill to the appropriate level.

On the other hand, that's the only limit. If building a new character becomes just a case of opening your wallet, then the ability to do so the instant the meta changes could be the new P2W.

Starlock

Yes it's P2W.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Pay to Win means getting an advantage through the cash shop you -cannot- get through normal playing.

This is not an extra advantage over normal playing. This is just getting something you can play for in a different way - paying for it.

Just like the riding lessons, or the motiv books.
No more. No less.

For information:

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

DenMoria

Yes it's P2W.

Wildberryjack wrote: »

What's next? Paid character boosts complete with all achievements you have on your main? What's the point in playing a game if you're not going to PLAY it? Why bother making a game if you give players a way to skip playing it? No. Just no.

Yeh! That's it!

I get one character up to 810+ and then I can pay for all my new characters or current characters to have the same!

I would love it!

Of course... I'm a lazy, lazy person...

dbgager

No it's not P2W.

Actually I like finding all the skyshards. I am more into story and exploration. That is why I play the game. Not min maxing for the endgme. SO probably something I would not be interested in buying.

FrancisCrawford

No it's not P2W.

How does the skyshard SP work?

Turelus

No it's not P2W.

@kidgangster101 information is from Elsweyr press event earlier in the month. Was part of the presentation Rich Lambert gave.
Those who visited ZOS also learned of it I believe.

Starlock

Yes it's P2W.

dbgager wrote: »

Actually I like finding all the skyshards. I am more into story and exploration. That is why I play the game. Not min maxing for the endgme. SO probably something I would not be interested in buying.

I'm generally the same, but as I've developed more characters, there are some I wish would have certain skills right out of the gate for story purposes. When that happens, I skyshard hunt and get them to 50 before even starting their stories. Which works out some times better than other times...

getemshauna

No it's not P2W.

You don't understand meaning of P2W. Even if they would add vMA weapons to Crown Store, it still won't be P2W.

Kambo

No it's not P2W.

I don't feel that it is Pay2Win, but I do feel that it is insulting. Most people have to grind out Skyshards on every single character they have in order to obtain the skill points they need, and although this whole thing is more convenient than P2W, I still feel it takes the necessary extra work out of the game. People with a bunch of alts SHOULD have to grind out all of those Skyshards again as that is one of the actual few long-term grinds in the game, especially for someone with 15+ characters.

To quote my friend's feelings on this matter:

"As a player I'm saddened that those with a 9-to-5 job who don't mind shilling out a bit of cash get the edge over me for no reason while I've got to spend a good 2 - 4 hours collecting every shard in the game.
and even if I had a *** part time job I probably still wouldn't purchase them because it just doesn't give me that cool feeling of "oh ***, there's a skyshard over there."

It's more satisfying to actually go and hunt for the Skyshards than it is to pay to get the ones you've already found on other characters. And to see someone with at least one other character do just that and in an instant obtain more Skyshards than I have on the one character I play for almost all of my time... Well, you understand why I find it insulting.

Shadow-Fighter

Yes it's P2W.

Its P2W!

'cause they need $$$.
It has not to do with Buy2Play!

In near future, if someone complete the game 100%, they will also be able to pay to complete 100% on their alts.

That progress going slowly to P2W!

Why not make all those funny things for free?

Progress shouldn't be sold!

Mojmir

No it's not P2W.

its not the skyshard, its what you do after youve LEVELED the skill up with it.

MLGProPlayer

No it's not P2W.

No, it's obviously not P2W.

Earning Skyshards doesn't require the completion of actual content. It just requires you to walk to points on a map.

An item that unlocks skyshard SPs across characters is just a convenience item.

I don't plan on making any more characters, so I won't be using it, but I'm glad it will be available for those who will be.

DenMoria

Yes it's P2W.

Kambo wrote: »

I don't feel that it is Pay2Win, but I do feel that it is insulting. Most people have to grind out Skyshards on every single character they have in order to obtain the skill points they need, and although this whole thing is more convenient than P2W, I still feel it takes the necessary extra work out of the game. People with a bunch of alts SHOULD have to grind out all of those Skyshards again as that is one of the actual few long-term grinds in the game, especially for someone with 15+ characters.

To quote my friend's feelings on this matter:

"As a player I'm saddened that those with a 9-to-5 job who don't mind shilling out a bit of cash get the edge over me for no reason while I've got to spend a good 2 - 4 hours collecting every shard in the game.
and even if I had a *** part time job I probably still wouldn't purchase them because it just doesn't give me that cool feeling of "oh ***, there's a skyshard over there."

It's more satisfying to actually go and hunt for the Skyshards than it is to pay to get the ones you've already found on other characters. And to see someone with at least one other character do just that and in an instant obtain more Skyshards than I have on the one character I play for almost all of my time... Well, you understand why I find it insulting.

I think you friend should get a job rather than play ESO all day. Maybe then they could get some of the "conveniences".

It may be insulting and incredibly lazy, but as one of those folks who works 12 hour days and only gets a few hours to play every week, I would very much appreciate not having to grind for EVERYTHING, all the time. Especially on new characters.

Fortunately I have enough alts that I play regularly and have been playing long enough that, on the whole, actually resources are not an issue when it comes to crafting, so, there's that...

Ertosi

Yes it's P2W.

getemshauna wrote: »

You don't understand meaning of P2W. Even if they would add vMA weapons to Crown Store, it still won't be P2W.

Quite the opposite. As Starlock posted before, the definition of P2W is quite clear:

Starlock wrote: »

For information:

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

Directly buying Skill Points most certainly allows a paying player to gain a gameplay advantage. That is the definition of PTW.

All arguments to the contrary miss this fundamental definition, and most are merely justifications for those wishing to buy convivence for characters who have not earned it.

MLGProPlayer

No it's not P2W.

Kambo wrote: »

I don't feel that it is Pay2Win, but I do feel that it is insulting. Most people have to grind out Skyshards on every single character they have in order to obtain the skill points they need, and although this whole thing is more convenient than P2W, I still feel it takes the necessary extra work out of the game. People with a bunch of alts SHOULD have to grind out all of those Skyshards again as that is one of the actual few long-term grinds in the game, especially for someone with 15+ characters.

To quote my friend's feelings on this matter:

"As a player I'm saddened that those with a 9-to-5 job who don't mind shilling out a bit of cash get the edge over me for no reason while I've got to spend a good 2 - 4 hours collecting every shard in the game.
and even if I had a *** part time job I probably still wouldn't purchase them because it just doesn't give me that cool feeling of "oh ***, there's a skyshard over there."

It's more satisfying to actually go and hunt for the Skyshards than it is to pay to get the ones you've already found on other characters. And to see someone with at least one other character do just that and in an instant obtain more Skyshards than I have on the one character I play for almost all of my time... Well, you understand why I find it insulting.

You don't have to buy the upgrade if you don't want to.

The only thing I find insulting is grind mechanics in games. Having to spend hours upon hours repeating content is an insult to my intelligence.

eliisra

No it's not P2W.

I think it's good! It's a way for Zenimax to make some cash and milk lazy people, without having to introduce real P2W and cash grabs. Only saves you a couple of days in terms of progression.

Just go play any Asian f2p or one-time purchase mmorpg, if you wanna see real disgusting P2W. Or actually don't do that, becuse it's sad and you need really low standards to enjoy that.

Granted, ESO can't go completely nuts on P2W since content is b2p or you need a sub. But I think this, paying to unlock some skyshards, is within the limit of what they can do.

DenMoria

Yes it's P2W.

Shadow-Fighter wrote: »

Its P2W!

'cause they need $$$.
It has not to do with Buy2Play!

In near future, if someone complete the game 100%, they will also be able to pay to complete 100% on their alts.

That progress going slowly to P2W!

Why not make all those funny things for free?

Progress shouldn't be sold!

Given the number of incredibly skilled players who ARE maxed out that I see on a daily basis when I play the game, it might be nice to be in their company with a new character rather than grind away with the pleebs.

Somehow, I don't see our elite players doing a whole lot of socializing with all the newbies and underlings.

Sure they teach, but, honestly, playing with us is truly beneath them. No, seriously, I would have no idea why they would even want to bother.

MLGProPlayer

No it's not P2W.

Ertosi wrote: »

getemshauna wrote: »

You don't understand meaning of P2W. Even if they would add vMA weapons to Crown Store, it still won't be P2W.

Quite the opposite. As Starlock posted before, the definition of P2W is quite clear:

Starlock wrote: »

For information:

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

Directly buying Skill Points most certainly allows a paying player to gain a gameplay advantage. That is the definition of PTW.

All arguments to the contrary miss this fundamental definition, and most are merely justifications for those wishing to buy convivence for characters who have not earned it.

This doesn't give you an advantage over non-paying players though.

A non-paying player can still unlock all of these SPs. It'll just take them 10 hours longer.

P2W = giving paying players an advantage that non-paying players don't have access to, or if they do, it's prohibitively grindy (i.e. hidden behind ridiculous RNG).

KhajiitFelix

No it's not P2W.

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

Absolutely.

You are paying real-life money, for combat power/effectiveness in ESO. That is by definition, P2W.

Things like mount speed/capacity/stamina are a convenience item. Things like research scrolls are a convenience item. Things like XP scrolls are a convenience item. None of those things directly relate to your in-game power, and capabilities in combat. Being able to create a new toon and pay to unlock ~400 skill points absolutely relates to and effects your in-game power.

I have always said this - the ability to apply skyshard/mage's guild/psijic line to other characters - should be an option when you've unlocked the highest tier achievement. However, it should be something you simply unlock when you reach that goal. Allowing people with fiscal freedom to instantly access all skill points, while people without that same financial security will be unable to do so, is pretty crap in my opinion.

Then tell me, who is going to have the advantage, a level 30 player who spent hours to get all skyshards or a level 30 player who got them all in 1 click? I'm pretty sure none of them has the advantage.

Kuramas9tails

No it's not P2W.

Ehh,

Pay to win means to have an advantage over others who don't get the same opportunity.

Anyone can get sky shards so I don't see this as such.

All this does is let lazy players pay for time.

Honestly though, they shouldn't be having people pay for this. This should be a given.

Starlock

Yes it's P2W.

Ertosi wrote: »

Directly buying Skill Points most certainly allows a paying player to gain a gameplay advantage. That is the definition of PTW.

All arguments to the contrary miss this fundamental definition, and most are merely justifications for those wishing to buy convivence for characters who have not earned it.

In fairness, as I mentioned before, it's a spectrum, not an either-or. Where each individual draws the line (if they choose to draw one at all) is going to vary.

I've noticed that as pay-to-win micro-transactions have become more normalized in my country, more and more people are saying this or that is not pay-to-win. I find that trend concerning, because it opens up the door for more and more predatory marketing schemes. ESO in particular has been headed down that path for quite some time now, and as a general rule, I refuse to support games that monetize in such fashions. ESO is the one and only exception I make to this rule because of the quality of storytelling/lore content.

I have to wonder, though, that if pay-to-win skill point unlocks are going to be a thing, why not also pay-to-win to unlock skill lines? Level a character to 50? To max CP? If they are going to allow one form, I see no reason to not allow all of it. They are all basically the same thing.

EDIT to fix me screwing up the quote function

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

@driosketch
Let's say I have the vet-clear achievement of the said dungeon. There is a chest directly at the beginning of the dungeon with several armor items, weapon or jewelry plus a monster helmet whenever I enter it. For the sake of the economy I can't decon nor sell them. I mean, I am capable of clearing it, why grinding it over and over when I can conveniently loot the chest. People who don't want to unlock this feature can grind the dungeons the old way. Afterall, grinding over and over is an insult to me as a gamer.

MLGProPlayer

No it's not P2W.

Facefister wrote: »

@driosketch
Let's say I have the vet-clear achievement of the said dungeon. There is a chest directly at the beginning of the dungeon with several armor items, weapon or jewelry plus a monster helmet whenever I enter it. For the sake of the economy I can't decon nor sell them. I mean, I am capable of clearing it, why grinding it over and over when I can conveniently loot the chest. People who don't want to unlock this feature can grind the dungeons the old way. Afterall, grinding over and over is an insult to me as a gamer.

Because completing a dungeon is actual skill-based content.

Running to a point on a map does not challenge your skill as a player in any capacity.

Jhalin

Yes it's P2W.

It’s gives an advantage over some who doesn’t pay so it’s P2W in the simplest definition, same as buying vMA weapons, or buying monsters helms with cash.

You can say it’s “convenience” to not have to run the content for your gear, but we know better.

The only thing that makes it not theabsyte worst it could be is that it require having obtained the skyshards before. If they insist of having skyshards be purchaseable through RMTs, then at least make them available in-game too.

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

@driosketch
Let's say I have the vet-clear achievement of the said dungeon. There is a chest directly at the beginning of the dungeon with several armor items, weapon or jewelry plus a monster helmet whenever I enter it. For the sake of the economy I can't decon nor sell them. I mean, I am capable of clearing it, why grinding it over and over when I can conveniently loot the chest. People who don't want to unlock this feature can grind the dungeons the old way. Afterall, grinding over and over is an insult to me as a gamer.

Because completing a dungeon is actual skill-based content.

Running to a point on a map does not challenge your skill as a player in any capacity.

Clearing any vet dungeon on vet isn't a challenge for me either, that's not an argument you're presenting.

West1389

No it's not P2W.

Where are all the dead horse memes? Also where are the "this again never gonna happen" people at.

Like many that were for this said never say never. Guessing those people either quit like they said or went into hiding. Last thing HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA