Is Buying Skyshard SP Pay to Win?

Tandor

No it's not P2W.

Monsieur wrote: »

The biggest problem with this thread is that pay to win has different meanings to different players and the majority of the thread is spent arguing with each other over who’s definition is right.

We should be more focused on whether we feel like this is a dirty underhanded tactic from ZOS or whether this is acceptable.

I don't think it's dirty or underhand, but I don't like it nonetheless. Some of us have been arguing on thread after thread against making achievements - whether all as some demand, or only a few like skyshards and lorebooks as recently lobbied for - account-wide partly because we believed it would be bad for the game but also because if accepted by ZOS it was only ever going to be implemented through the Crown Store. That was so obviously foreseeable, as was the fact that now people have got what they asked for a lot of them don't like it and want it done differently.

Elsonso

Other.

ZonasArch wrote: »

Iarao wrote: »

MyNameIsElias wrote: »

You dont get any combat advantage over others for purchasing it, you only pay for convenience.

3 shards = 1 skillpoint. skillpoints are used to buy abilities. abilities are what is used for combat. even if you have to have them on one of your toons, the OTHERS get combat bennies via paying, and for something that isnt really that hard to get, except pvp ones.

You said so yourself, it isn't hard to get, then how is it p2w? Of you keep calling everything p2w, you'll just sound like politicians that call any bad news the "fake news". You know you're being silly, you just say it for the sake of saying it. The word loses ts meaning. Wanna see p2w? Go play a Korean MMO. Come back here after you see what p2w means for real.

The amount of ease that it takes to avoid paying is irrelevant, in my eyes, and why I am commenting on the question you posed. The question isn't about "hard to get" as much as it is "does buying skill points allow a player to win".

In this case, it does not. Learning a skill in this game require three things: (1) the skill line, (2) the skill point, (3) the experience.

ZOS will be selling two of those things in the Crown Store. They will sell the Vampire and Werewolf skill lines, and the skill points to use them. They do not sell experience. They sell XP boosters, but that is not the same as selling the XP.

With Skyshards, ZOS is selling convenience. That is always going to be toying with the idea of P2W. The biggest barrier in this game to "winning" is the inconvenience (time) of getting the character to the point where it is able to compete.

I voted "Other" due to the "slippery slope" here. My "slippery slope" concern is centered on how ZOS is creeping towards P2W incrementally by introducing new convenience items. It is particularly concerning when they can be combined for greater effect. They are going to be selling things related to all three of the things that players need to learn skills in the game. Every convenience that makes the game less inconvenient for character combat in the end-game brings the game closer to P2W. In this, they keep getting closer to the fire.

ZOS ramps up the monetization every year. The last couple of years, it has been around Crown Crates. I've been waiting to see what they do this year. I am wondering if this is it.

Rex-Umbra

Yes it's P2W.

Purchased via gold or crowns?

WhoThenNow7

No it's not P2W.

I'm sorry but some of you are acting like major nerds... if it already has to be completed on one character, then honestly what difference does it make to YOU if someone else pays to unlock them on their alts? Forget the fact that "it took more time"; who cares? And if you don't want to pay then you can still do it for free. Have fun doing the same exact boring grind for the 10th time.

Karmanorway

No it's not P2W.

Calling it P2W is BS, its "P2ST" - Pay To Save Time

Facefister

Yes it's P2W.

Karmanorway wrote: »

Calling it P2W is BS, its "P2ST" - Pay To Save Time

This entire discussion is about how ZoS monetizes a band-aid solution to their broken system instead of fixing it with ingame elements for everyone. We're talking about QoL here not about mounts or cosmetics. Stop parroting the same line about "business, advantage and save time" everytime.

Mojmir

No it's not P2W.

make it free for eso+ lol

thedude33

No it's not P2W.

If new players could pay to get the shards, that would be P2W

Existing players that have previously completed the content? Most definitely not P2W

Me thinks too many people here think that P2W = Charlie Sheens definition of "winning"

Iluvrien

Yes it's P2W.

lordrichter wrote: »

<SNIP>

I voted "Other" due to the "slippery slope" here. My "slippery slope" concern is centered on how ZOS is creeping towards P2W incrementally by introducing new convenience items. It is particularly concerning when they can be combined for greater effect. They are going to be selling things related to all three of the things that players need to learn skills in the game. Every convenience that makes the game less inconvenient for character combat in the end-game brings the game closer to P2W. In this, they keep getting closer to the fire.

ZOS ramps up the monetization every year. The last couple of years, it has been around Crown Crates. I've been waiting to see what they do this year. I am wondering if this is it.

Mostly this. I primarily voted Yes on the basis that whether it is P2W or not, I don't consider it an acceptable practice.

The trend towards complete monetization isn't one that I see stopping any time soon. In fact I strongly suspect that we will see fully levelled alts on the CS eventually.

I also don't think that this is ZOS' only monetization step this year. I'd guess 6 months to let people rationalise/normalise this one away and then they'll take another step.

thedude33

No it's not P2W.

You could spend your entire life searching for the perfect shard, and it would not be a wasted life.

puuurfect !

Elsonso

Other.

WhoThenNow7 wrote: »

I'm sorry but some of you are acting like major nerds... if it already has to be completed on one character, then honestly what difference does it make to YOU if someone else pays to unlock them on their alts? Forget the fact that "it took more time"; who cares? And if you don't want to pay then you can still do it for free. Have fun doing the same exact boring grind for the 10th time.

Well, there are different perspectives.

From here, it looks like the perspective that you are referring to has a separation between "player" and "character". It is not "you" in the game fighting monsters, and unlike many games that people can play, it is not all about the player. It is about the character. That is the whole point of an RPG. The character. To a person really playing an RPG, they don't care about the player. I have to believe that this is the fundamental reason why there is so much about ESO that is character-centric, rather than player, or account.

It is easy to dismiss these people by implying that what one player does should not matter to what another player does, when that is actually the point. One group is playing the game very differently than the other, to the same result. In this case, trading money for something that someone else has to work for.

In games like Oblivion and Skyrim, it is standard behavior for many players to bypass the intended game play. If they are not using console codes, they have mods loaded that change how the game is played. Some single player games disable achievements when this happens simply because the achievements mean different things when someone bypasses or changes the way the game is played. Outside of that, no one really cares because the players are not playing against each other.

In an online game, this becomes more significant. Players are playing with and against each other. When a player runs around Skyrim for 1000 hours after having turned on "TGM", no one cares. It is cheating, technically, but who cares. If they figure out how to do the same thing in ESO, we expect that player to be banned. An extreme example, to be sure, but any time that a player takes an external shortcut in the game play of an online game, the other players have a right to sit up and take notice. Is this something that can be accepted, or is this something that needs to be challenged? Buying Skyshards is an external shortcut. It deserves to be considered to determine whether it does make a difference.

It is up to the makers of the online game to determine how the game will handle this difference. Ideally, they resolve the conflict in an amicable manner. In this case, it is necessary to have concessions, since the two perspectives are at odds. ZOS places limits and hurdles on the players who want to bypass. The players who do not want to bypass are required to accept that the game play will be different, in an official manner, knowing that the players who want it must comply with those limits and hurdles.

TL;DR: Saying "honestly, what difference does it make to YOU" in this case is actually the whole issue. It does make a difference to them, and for good reason. This is an online RPG game where players are playing with and against each other. Differences in how individual characters get there become important, especially when outside mechanisms are used to do it. Just as one group has to accept the terms of the bypass, the other group has to accept that the bypass will be happening according to those terms.

Universe

Yes it's P2W.

The fact that 32% and 267 players believe it is P2W speaks volumes and it is not something to take lightly.
Most of the players who participated in this forum poll are veteran and elite players, I can imagine the "Yes it's P2W" number would have been much higher if the poll included players who don't visit the forum(i.e most of the player base).

Since so many players believe it is P2W, this feature shouldn't be implemented.
There is no general agreement to implement it.

thedude33

No it's not P2W.

Universe wrote: »

The fact that 32% and 267 players believe it is P2W speaks volumes and it is not something to take lightly.
Most of the players who participated in this forum poll are veteran and elite players, I can imagine the "Yes it's P2W" number would have been much higher if the poll included players who don't visit the forum(i.e most of the player base).

Since so many players believe it is P2W, this feature shouldn't be implemented.
There is no general agreement to implement it.

You could do a poll and ask is the earth flat and 33% would say yes. In any poll the lowest result you will get is about 30%. So no, this doesn't speak volumes.

Edit: No general agreement? It's 2-1 voting in favor. That's overwhelming in any poll, election etc

Universe

Yes it's P2W.

thedude33 wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

The fact that 32% and 267 players believe it is P2W speaks volumes and it is not something to take lightly.
Most of the players who participated in this forum poll are veteran and elite players, I can imagine the "Yes it's P2W" number would have been much higher if the poll included players who don't visit the forum(i.e most of the player base).

Since so many players believe it is P2W, this feature shouldn't be implemented.
There is no general agreement to implement it.

You could do a poll and ask is the earth flat and 33% would say yes. In any poll the lowest result you will get is about 30%. So no, this doesn't speak volumes.

Bad comparison.
Obviously, many forum members voted "No it's not P2W." just so they could use it themselves even though they know very well it is P2W.
So many forum members are against implementing skyshard SP for crowns and it does means something.
I hope ZOS will understand that this feature has no place in ESO.
If they will implement it, we can expect maxed skill lines and champion points etc. in the crown store afterwards.
Once they go down this road, there is no going back.

CassandraGemini

Other.

thedude33 wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

The fact that 32% and 267 players believe it is P2W speaks volumes and it is not something to take lightly.
Most of the players who participated in this forum poll are veteran and elite players, I can imagine the "Yes it's P2W" number would have been much higher if the poll included players who don't visit the forum(i.e most of the player base).

Since so many players believe it is P2W, this feature shouldn't be implemented.
There is no general agreement to implement it.

You could do a poll and ask is the earth flat and 33% would say yes. In any poll the lowest result you will get is about 30%. So no, this doesn't speak volumes.

Edit: No general agreement? It's 2-1 voting in favor. That's overwhelming in any poll, election etc

Well, to be fair, the 2-1 vote only means that twice as many people don't consider this P2W - it doesn't say anything about whether they actually like the feature or not.

I, for one, voted "other" because I really don't care one way or the other. For the record I don't actually consider it P2W, since you don't get any form of advantage over other players by paying. You can just as well go and collect the things in game, there's not even an rng-element attached to it like it would be with gear sets. Still, to me this is pretty much irrelevant, since this feature is nothing but a greedy cash-grab and I won't be using it anyway. So just because I didn't vote "Yes, it is P2W", doesn't automatically mean I'm in favor of this, and I'm pretty sure lots of other people feel the same way.

Edit: Whether that be because they don't like the feature at all, or because they, like me, feel that it should have been something that should be made available for free or through in-game currencies instead of real money.

todokete

Yes it's P2W.

It's going to attract more new players if you don't implement this.

Grandma

No it's not P2W.

1) people have been asking for literally this exactly for years "please let us just buy skyshards" so if any of those people are now whining it's p2w, well that says enough about them for you to know.

2) it's not pay to win because you had to already have "won" it to buy it for another character. it only lets you buy bundles you've already gotten.

3) it's probably going to cost a lot, knowing ZOS i'd guess 1000 crowns per alliance or something. and that's on the "cheap" side of what i'm picturing here, probably more like 3k if we're being realistic. If you're paying that much, you're kinda losing :P but we'll see.

RedTalon

Other.

Given you have to unlockl them first, its more pay to be lazy and besies we all know where all the skyshards are anyhow so not like it takes that long save for the ones behind alliance gates

RedTalon

Other.

Pay to win is more is the crown store the only to get those shards

mairwen85

Other.

RedTalon wrote: »

Given you have to unlockl them first, its more pay to be lazy and besies we all know where all the skyshards are anyhow so not like it takes that long save for the ones behind alliance gates

But still it impacts console players harder - - as always.

Shadow-Fighter

Yes it's P2W.

If its not P2W then i want to buy DLC Full complete (with all Achievments) Clown shop tokens for my alts too. Thanks!

Flips

No it's not P2W.

Great change. What is sp?

thedude33

No it's not P2W.

CassandraGemini wrote: »

thedude33 wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

The fact that 32% and 267 players believe it is P2W speaks volumes and it is not something to take lightly.
Most of the players who participated in this forum poll are veteran and elite players, I can imagine the "Yes it's P2W" number would have been much higher if the poll included players who don't visit the forum(i.e most of the player base).

Since so many players believe it is P2W, this feature shouldn't be implemented.
There is no general agreement to implement it.

You could do a poll and ask is the earth flat and 33% would say yes. In any poll the lowest result you will get is about 30%. So no, this doesn't speak volumes.

Edit: No general agreement? It's 2-1 voting in favor. That's overwhelming in any poll, election etc

Well, to be fair, the 2-1 vote only means that twice as many people don't consider this P2W - it doesn't say anything about whether they actually like the feature or not.

I, for one, voted "other" because I really don't care one way or the other. For the record I don't actually consider it P2W, since you don't get any form of advantage over other players by paying. You can just as well go and collect the things in game, there's not even an rng-element attached to it like it would be with gear sets. Still, to me this is pretty much irrelevant, since this feature is nothing but a greedy cash-grab and I won't be using it anyway. So just because I didn't vote "Yes, it is P2W", doesn't automatically mean I'm in favor of this, and I'm pretty sure lots of other people feel the same way.

Edit: Whether that be because they don't like the feature at all, or because they, like me, feel that it should have been something that should be made available for free or through in-game currencies instead of real money.

That's true, it doesn't say whether they prefer boxers or briefs either. Since the poll question was ... Is Buying Skyshard SP Pay to Win? ..... I'm guessing the poll was answered dealing with that question.

karekiz

No it's not P2W.

Shadow-Fighter wrote: »

If its not P2W then i want to buy DLC Full complete (with all Achievments) Clown shop tokens for my alts too. Thanks!

Well you would need to earn them first then buy the unlock. I wouldn't care as its basically global acheezements.

I have alts that have never completed Challenger fanglair etc but I sure do use that personality. By some peoples "definitions" I shouldn't be able to unless I clear the content on each alt to unlock it.

My issue is that its per character. I would MUCH rather like a global unlock at a higher price. Or even both. Per char all skyshards for 1K (10.00 USD> - Account wide all chars for 5K (50.00 USD)

Thorstienn

No it's not P2W.

Universe wrote: »

The fact that 32% and 267 players believe it is P2W speaks volumes and it is not something to take lightly.
Most of the players who participated in this forum poll are veteran and elite players, I can imagine the "Yes it's P2W" number would have been much higher if the poll included players who don't visit the forum(i.e most of the player base).

Since so many players believe it is P2W, this feature shouldn't be implemented.
There is no general agreement to implement it.

Actually all that shows is the flaw in these kinds of polls: people tend to not just answer the question "Is Buying Skyshard SP Pay to Win?" objectively, they let there emotions and personal opinions take over: "it's a slippery slope for the future", "each character should be an individual", "it's a cash grab" etc.

Maybe (as is often the case) it's the OPs fault for not providing a defined definition for P2W, yet as MMO players they probably figured people know what that exceptionally common term means. I'll accept that the term is sometimes used more loosely particularly in non-competitive games (as eso is), however this still wouldn't apply. Even if it had no requirements (having collected then previously) at this point in the games life, would still simply be a convenience: vets already have then and new players still need to learn to actually "play" the game.

Note: I dont like that it's another monetized component in a game with paid expansions, a subscription AND a cash shop. And if OP had asked if I agree with how its is being implemented, my answer would be no; and I would agree with far more of people's comments in this thread.

Lilyanne

No it's not P2W.

WhoThenNow7 wrote: »

I'm sorry but some of you are acting like major nerds... if it already has to be completed on one character, then honestly what difference does it make to YOU if someone else pays to unlock them on their alts? Forget the fact that "it took more time"; who cares? And if you don't want to pay then you can still do it for free. Have fun doing the same exact boring grind for the 10th time.

Fully agreed. Idc. If someone wants to pay with USD/EUR whatever to get the Skyshards they already gathered before ... sure, why not. If they'd sell weapons or gear exclusively there, especially stuff that would definitely improve their dps/whatever, yo, I'd also scream p2w. But for skyshards? Nah. They are milking with the Vampire/Werwolf already and Idc about these either.

Universe

Yes it's P2W.

Thorstienn wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

The fact that 32% and 267 players believe it is P2W speaks volumes and it is not something to take lightly.
Most of the players who participated in this forum poll are veteran and elite players, I can imagine the "Yes it's P2W" number would have been much higher if the poll included players who don't visit the forum(i.e most of the player base).

Since so many players believe it is P2W, this feature shouldn't be implemented.
There is no general agreement to implement it.

Actually all that shows is the flaw in these kinds of polls: people tend to not just answer the question "Is Buying Skyshard SP Pay to Win?" objectively, they let there emotions and personal opinions take over: "it's a slippery slope for the future", "each character should be an individual", "it's a cash grab" etc.

Maybe (as is often the case) it's the OPs fault for not providing a defined definition for P2W, yet as MMO players they probably figured people know what that exceptionally common term means. I'll accept that the term is sometimes used more loosely particularly in non-competitive games (as eso is), however this still wouldn't apply. Even if it had no requirements (having collected then previously) at this point in the games life, would still simply be a convenience: vets already have then and new players still need to learn to actually "play" the game.

Note: I dont like that it's another monetized component in a game with paid expansions, a subscription AND a cash shop. And if OP had asked if I agree with how its is being implemented, my answer would be no; and I would agree with far more of people's comments in this thread.

The poll's options are limited to P2W or not P2W or other.
A new poll is needed with the options:
1. Yes! Please implement skyshard packs in the crown store. Please explain.
2. No! Don't implement skyshard packs in the crown store. Please explain.
3. Other. Please explain.

karekiz

No it's not P2W.

Lilyanne wrote: »

hey are milking with the Vampire/Werwolf already and Idc about these either.

I find the "Cure" one the most insulting. Its literally talking to an NPC and paying a couple hundred gold. Yet costs 800 crowns to do from the store <Which someone I know bought because they had no idea how to cure themselves>

^

That is sketchy to me.

Savos_Saren

Other.

Honestly, with as much complaining that we have about wanting Undanted skills, Skyshards, Horse upgrades to exist across all of our characters- what did you expect ZOS to do?

I don't have a problem with "unlocking" achievements or skillpoints that I've already previously earned. It greatly reduces the monotony of the game. Now, if it was allowing people to purchase skill points that they haven't earned on any other character... that would be different.

Bealeb319

No it's not P2W.

This is not pay to win. It does not make anyone better than they already were. What it does is encourages people to play more than one hero which is not a bad thing. It allows people to share their own achievements with other characters they already own instead of having to do everything multiple times which can get redundant, overwhelming, and honestly boreing.