Racial Rebalance v4.3.X

twing1_

TL;DR:

ZOS's method of balancing the races so far has been inherently imbalanced. This is because they aren't sticking to specific guidelines while designing each and every race. To create better balance between the races, each race should follow the same set of guidelines. Here is an example set of guidelines and a racial rebalance in adherence to it:

Guidelines:
1. Each race will be allotted 3000 maximum resources distributed between magicka, stamina, and health, with health receiving a 10% increase consistent with all other sources of health in the game
2. Each race will have a small defensive bonus of relatively equal value
3. Each race will have access to a sustain tool for at least one of their resources
4. Each race will be granted the equivalent of two 2-4 piece item set bonuses, copy pasted directly from pre-existing item sets in the game wherever applicable
5. Each race will reflect traditional TES lore and be given non-combat flavor passives to support this.

Altmer
-Increases experience gain with destruction staff by 15%. Increases experience gain by 1%.
-Increases maximum magicka by
2000. Increases maximum stamina by 1000
-Reduces damage when casting or channeling by 5%. Heavy attacks restore an additional 20% of the resources they normally would.
-258 spell damage

Argonian
-Increases experience gain with restoration staff by 15%. Increases swim speed by 50%.
-Increases max magicka and stamina by 1000. Increases maximum health by 1100.
-Increases disease resistance by 2310. Immune to diseased status effect. Drinking a potion restores 4000 magicka, health, and stamina.
-4% healing done, 833 weapon/spell critical

Bosmer
-Increases experience gain with bow by 15%. Increases chance to pick pockets and force locks by 10%.
-Increases maximum stamina by 2000. Increases maximum magicka by 1000.
-2310 poison resistance. Immune to poisoned status effect. While the effects of one of your alchemical potions or weapon poisons are active, restore 400 magicka or stamina, whichever maximum is higher. 4 second cool down.
-129 stamina recovery, 1487 physical/spell penetration

Breton
-Increases experience gain with light armor by 15%. Increases alliance point gain by 1%.
-Increases maximum magicka by 2500. Increases maximum health by 550.
-2310 spell resistance. Status effects have a 10% lower chance to be applied to you. When you use an ability, restore 300 magicka. If the ability used does not damage an enemy, the magicka restored is doubled. 6 second cool down.
-Reduces the magicka cost of abilities by 7%

Dunmer
-Increases experience gain with dual wield by 15%. Reduces damage taken from lava by 50%.
-Increases maximum magicka and stamina by 1500
-2310 fire resistance. Immunity to burning status effect. When you deal direct damage, restore 645 magicka or stamina, whichever maximum is lower. 6 second cool down.
-258 spell/weapon damage

Imperial
-Increases experience gain with 1h and shield by 15%. Increases gold gain by 1%.
-Increases maximum magicka and stamina by 750. Increases maximum health by 1650.
-1155 physical and spell resistance. You can block 5% more damage. When you deal direct damage, restore 333 magicka, stamina, and health. 5 second cool down.
-Reduces the magicka and stamina cost of abilities by 3.5%, 129 weapon/spell damage

Khajit
-Increases experience gain with medium armor by 15%. Reduces fall damage by 10%.
-Increases maximum magicka and stamina by 1250. Increases maximum health by 550.
-Reduces the radius you can be detected while sneaking by 3m. When you deal critical damage, increase your health recovery by 200 for 10 seconds.
-Increases critical damage and healing by 14%

Nord
-Increases experience gain with 2h by 15%. Increases duration of drinks by 15 minutes.
-Increases maximum stamina by 2000. Increases maximum health by 1100.
-2310 cold resistance. Immunity to chilled status effect. When you take or deal damage, generate 5 ultimate. 10 second cool down.
-2975 physical/spell resistance, 129 weapon damage.

Orc
-Increases experience gain with heavy armor by 15%. Increases crafting inspiration by 10%.
-Increases maximum stamina by 2000. Increases maximum health by 1100.
-2310 shock resistance. Immunity to concussed status effect. When you deal damage with a weapon ability, restore 600 health. 4 second cool down.
-258 weapon damage.

Redguard
-Increases experience gain with 1h and shield by 15%. Increases duration of food by 15 minutes.
-Increases maximum stamina by 2500. Increases maximum health by 550.
-2310 physical resistance. Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15%. When you deal direct damage, restore 250 stamina. 4 second cooldown.
-Reduces the stamina cost of abilities by 7%

Analytical justifications for these changes are found later on in the bulk of this thread and comments.

DISCLAIMER: The following suggestions are in no way, shape, or form being implemented into the game in any version of reality. The following suggestions are solely the changes that I, as an individual with subjective preferences and more than probably incorrect views of balance, would like to see implemented into the game. By continuing to read this thread, you are acknowledging that both parties, the reader and the poster, are entitled to their own opinions, but only mine will be represented by this thread. I'm Freddy Krueger. You are in my nightmare. You're just along for the ride. But that's not to say that you can't achieve dream warrior status. Back up your suggestions/comments/criticisms/critiques with critical analysis and careful consideration in a calm, collected, and friendly way, and you may or may not see some of your ideas implemented into the original post.

Now then. This post has to do with rebalancing all of the racial passives across all of the different races, as I believe ZOS way of doing it has so far been inherently wrong. This is because ZOS doesn't stick to certain unbreakable guidelines when designing racial passives. Each race seems to be doing its own thing. There's no set of rules that each and every race is being forced to follow, other than the "roughly 6.5 item set piece bonuses", whatever that means. It would logically follow then that the races are not balanced. The first step to achieving real balance is by establishing guidelines. Here are mine:

GUIDELINES
1. Each race will be allotted 3000 maximum resources to play around with, no more and no less (with the exception of health bonuses receiving a 10% increase consistent with all other sources of health in the game). These can be distributed in any which way between Magicka, Stamina, and Health, so long as the total sum of these bonuses neither exceeds nor falls below the 3000 pre-adjusted maximum resource mark. The only races with more than 3000 total maximum resources have a health bonus, which will receive a 10% increase in accordance to the 10% increase in health over stam or mag found elsewhere in the game (evidenced by set bonuses granting 1096 stamina/magicka but 1206 health and attribute points granting 111 mag and stam but 122 health). For example, a race can have 1000 max stam, and 2000 max mag, while another can have 3000 max stam but no health and magicka. A race can also have 1000 max stam, 1100 max health (on account of the 10% increase), and 1000 max magicka. A race cannot have 3000 max stam and 1100 health, as the sum of these exceeds the 3000 pre-adjusted maximum resources limit. Nor can a race have 500 max stam, 550 max health, and 500 max magicka, as the total sum of these falls below the pre-adjusted 3000 maximum resources. Does this sound nice and fair to everyone? No? Well too bad.
2. Each race will have a small defensive bonus of relatively equal value. In most cases, this will be a consistent numeric value of bonus resistance to a particular type of damage.
3. Each race will have a sustain tool for at least one of their resources. The effectiveness and ease of use of this sustain tool will be dictated by the offensive power of the race through an inverse relationship. That is to say that, generally speaking, the more offensive power a race has, the less access it has to main resource sustain. And vice versa: the lower the offensive power of a race, the more access it has to primary stat sustain.
4. Each race will be granted the equivalent of two 2-4 piece item set bonuses. In certain situations, because endgame builds will utilize only one or the other, additional set bonuses will be granted strictly as magicka or stamina counterparts to the existing 2 set bonuses. But that is the only exception. For the most part, these bonuses are copy pasted directly from current 2-4 piece set bonuses already found in the game. There are a few exceptions where liberties were taken. In these instances, 2-4 pc set bonuses were derived from existing mundus stones or 5 pc set bonuses, given the relationship between other 2-4 pc bonuses and their corresponding mundus stone or 5 pc set bonus values. My apologies. But again, I'm Freddy Krueger. This is my dream.
5. Last and certainly not least, each race will overall more or less reflect traditional TES lore and be given non-combat flavor passives to support this. Because of (my perceived notion of) balance, not all elements of the lore can be reflected. But the general feel of each race's lore must be preserved. Most of these flavor passives are unchanged from what they currently are on the servers.

My logic behind these guidelines is that by giving every race equal amounts of max resources, independent of the questionably quantifiable "set bonuses", it leaves less room for variance between the races. Further restricting races to having similar defensive bonuses (numeric value-wise) and requiring them to have a sustain tool further reduces the room for negotiation on these "set bonuses" by dropping the overall number from ~6.5 to exactly 2. Furthermore, copy pasting these bonuses directly from pre-existing item sets or deriving them from mundus stones/5pc set bonuses (as these have consistent conversion rates to 2-4 pc item set bonuses) maintains the balance between races by feeding off of the balance currently found in the game.

To better explain this, an analogy can be made between dessert being served at a dinner party. ZOS is serving brownies, cookies, and slices of cake. As it currently stands, everybody is getting 6 pieces of dessert, but some people are walking away with all brownies, while others have brownies and slices of cake but no cookies, and even others are getting equal amounts of all three. Under these proposed changes, everyone will still be getting 6 dessert pieces but they are restricted to receiving exactly 2 cookies, at least 1 brownie, and at least 1 slice of cake, leaving only 2 dessert pieces to potential variance.

It is also important to note that my proposed changes are based off of the most recent analysis of DPS parses done by @susmitds and the Hell Runners Guild, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1
The study conducted by @HatchetHaro will also act as a basis of my rebalance for the magicka races, found here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459447/dps-comparison-of-races-on-pts-v4-3-3-pretty-graphs-analyses-and-farming-for-insightful-votes/p1

Later in this thread, I provide a detailed analysis of these studies and use their findings to justify the changes I make to the races.

Big shout out and special thanks to those brave and patient souls, willing to take the time for all those DPS parses in the name of science. This wouldn't be possible without you. Well conducted, guys.

Well then. Lets get into it.

ALTMER - I like where this one sits in the current dps parsing, competing for the top spot. I don't like their off-stat sustain, as it doesn't seem to fit the lore, but like the idea of having a bit of off-stat utility for PvP balancing

Maximum resources: 2000 magicka 1000 stamina (1000 bonus stamina for utility. Mainly a PvP balance addition, to help bridge the gap between them and the dunmer in that department. also helps make up for the loss of spell recharge)

Defensive bonus: 5% damage resistance while casting (unchanged - Altmer, lore wise, have very weak defenses. This is reflected by this admittedly weak defensive passive)

Sustain tool: Fully charged heavy attacks restore an additional 20% of the resources they normally would. (This is to keep Altmer damage dealers' sustain low as they will primarily be weaving light attacks, while also providing a sustain tool for altmer healers to take advantage of to compete with Breton healers. This also synergizes quite nicely with their defensive bonus, as heavy attacks are considered channeled/cast time abilities)

Set bonuses: (unchanged)
1. 129 spell damage
2. 129 spell damage

Flavor passives: Increases experience gain with destruction staff by 15%. Increases experience gain by 1% (unchanged)

ARGONIAN - In PTS v4.3.3, I think Argonians are falling a bit behind in DPS. I like their emphasis in survivability through healing though. Could use some help on the stamina side for lore.

Maximum resources: 1000 magicka 1100 health 1000 stamina (granting the extra 1000 to stamina to more closely resemble the bonuses granted to them in previous games)

Defensive bonus: 2310 disease resistance. Immunity to diseased status effect. (unchanged)

Sustain tool: When you drink a potion, you restore 4000 magicka, health, and stamina (unchanged)

Set bonuses:
1. 4% healing done (yes, I know 2% healing done is the current value for a set bonus. No, I am not proposing argonians be given 3 total set bonuses. But I am proposing that the set bonus be universally changed from 2% healing done to 4% healing done, even on pre-existing item sets. This is because even 129 spell damage often outperforms the current 2% healing done, in addition to boosting damage potential. 2% healing done needs a boost. In depth analysis of this: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/461580/healing-done-is-broken-and-inconsistent#latest)
2. 833 spell/weapon critical (boost to argonian dps parses, while also reinforcing their depiction as thieves/rogues in TES lore)

Flavor passives: Increases experience gain with restoration staff by 15%. Increases swim speed by 50% (unchanged)

BOSMER - all sorts of problems with their roll dodge mechanic, ranging from a lore perspective to the bonus being tied to a very expensive stamina cost. Loss of stealth doesn't fit lore wise, so wanted to give them some of it back in flavor passives. Also wanted to open them up to more magicka roles. I like where they are currently sitting in dps parses, however. Therefore, I've kept their stats very similar to how they are in 4.3.3. One notable difference is the division of their sustain: half of it now comes from a new sustain tool that can be specced for magicka recovery. Penetration bonus helps them keep up with other races that I've granted maximum primary resources to that were previously parsing on similar levels as the bosmer)

Maximum resources: 2000 stamina 1000 magicka (max mag to boost efficiency in magicka roles)

Defensive bonus: 2310 poison resistance. Immunity to poisoned status effect (unchanged)

Sustain tool: While the effects of one of your alchemical potions or weapon poisons are active, restore 400 magicka or stamina, whichever is higher, every 4 seconds. (emphasizes their proficiency in alchemy while also opening the door to magicka bosmer)

Set bonuses:
1. 129 stamina recovery (having a hard 129 stamina recovery emphasizes their natural agility, even when specced for magicka)
2. 1487 physical/spell penetration (Kra'gh one piece bonus, but again opening the door for magicka bosmer)

Flavor passives: Increases experience gain with bow by 15%. Increases chances to pick pockets and force locks by 10% (lore change. Bosmer have always been stealthy thieves. Wanted to compensate for their loss of combat stealth by aiding their thievery in non-combat scenarios)

BRETON - Overall in a pretty good spot. They are parsing ever slightly to high in comparison to the other 2nd tier dps races on account of their godly sustain. Brought that down ever so slightly in damage dealing roles but buffed it equally slightly in support roles.

Maximum resources: 2500 magicka 550 health (boost to health to emphasize the Breton's increased hardiness in comparison to the other elven races on account of their human ancestry)

Defensive bonus: 2310 spell resistance. Status effects have a 10% lower chance of being applied to you. (focus on status effect avoidance, rather than conditionally doubling the bonus. Keeps it more in line with other race's defensive bonuses)

Sustain tool: When you use an ability, restore 300 magicka. If the ability used does not damage an enemy, the magicka restored is doubled. This can occur once every 6 seconds. (reducing their sustain in damage dealer roles while also retaining their superior sustain compared to altmers in healer roles)

Set bonuses: (relatively unchanged)
1. Reduces the cost of magicka abilities by 3.5% (this one is hard to quantify, as there are currently no 2-4 pc item set bonuses that provide this. 5pc bonus of the armor of the Seducer provides a similar buff, and used hundings/Julianos as a relative comparison to find a coefficient that would translate this 5pc set bonus into a 2-4pc (2.31). 3.5% was the magic number, and is consistent with Bretons current 7% cost reduction on PTS)
2. Reduces the cost of magicka abilities by 3.5%

Flavor passives: Increases experience gain with light armor by 15%. Increases alliance point gain by 1% (unchanged)

DUNMER - I like where they are at in current parses for the most part. Wanted to emphasize the duality of their nature as both skilled warriors and casters in comparison to the altmer, according to lore. Steered hard into utilization of both stat pools (for added combat utility for roll dodges, break frees,etc on the magicka side of things and more magicka utility for crowd control, self buffs/heals, nb cloaks, etc on the stamina side of things).

Maximum resources: 1500 stamina 1500 magicka (retaining their equal split in offensive capabilities, while adhering to the 3000 max resource limit)

Defensive bonus: 2310 resistance to fire. Immunity to burned effect (unchanged)

Sustain tool: Dealing direct damage restores 645 magicka or stamina, whichever maximum is lower. 6 second cooldown (Altmer spell recharge. Seemed a lot more fitting on a hybrid race)

Set bonuses: (unchanged)
1. 129 spell/weapon damage
2. 129 spell/weapon damage

Flavor passives: Increases experience gain with dual wield by 15%. Reduces damage from lava by 50% (unchanged)

IMPERIAL - i like where they are going in v4.3.3. They are being established as as the swiss army knife race. They are well suited for any role. Could still use some help in the DPS race, both as magicka DD and as a stamina DD

Maximum resources: 750 magicka 1650 health, 750 stamina (spreading these out among all three resources to play into the jack of all trades identity. Damage concerns addressed in set bonuses)

Defensive bonus: 1155 spell resistance 1155 physical resistance. Increases amount of damage you can block by 5% (seems fitting that the jack of all trades, master of none should receive equal bonuses to all damage, at the cost of potency. Added block damage in place of a status effect immunity)

Sustain tool: When you deal direct damage, restore 333 magicka, health, and stamina. 5 second cool down. (unchanged)

Set bonuses:
1. Reduces magicka/stamina cost of your abilities by 3.5% (again hard to quantify, but seems like 3.5% could conceivably be a 2-4 piece set bonus, given the 5th piece bonus of the armor of the seducer set is 8% reduction)
2. 129 weapon/spell damage

Flavor passives: Increases experience gain with 1h and shield by 15%. Increases gold gain by 1% (unchanged)

KHAJIT - I think they are at a pretty good place in terms of balancing magic cats against stamina cats. They could both use a slight boost all around to keep them more competitive with the other races, however. Removed their sustain to be more in line with the other races that possess 2 damage oriented set bonuses, but gave them higher max resources to compensate.

Maximum resources: 1250 magicka 550 health 1250 stamina (boosting offensive capabilities while staying true to 3000 max resource limit)

Defensive bonus: Decreases the radius enemies can detect you while sneaking by 3m (unchanged)

Sustain tool: When you deal critical damage, increase health recovery by 200 (removed main stat sustain to bring them more in line with the other races that have both set bonuses dedicated to damage oriented bonuses. Bumped up value of health recovery with an added conditional to compensate)

Set bonuses: (values changed to match the values of two 2-4 pc item set bonuses)
1. +7% critical damage and healing (another hard one to quantify as set bonuses, but derived 7% from the shadow mundus stone by looking at other mundus stones that are valued at 1.85x 2-4 pc item set bonuses)
2. 7% critical damage and healing (can be adjusted to 833 weapon/spell critical rating if balance dictates. This would provide a slight buff to Khajit all around, but I fear it might benefit magicka Khajit more than intended. See analysis by @John_Falstaff here: https://us.v-cdn.net/5020507/uploads/editor/rd/x9lamkmbuo9h.png)

Flavor passives: Increases experience gain with medium armor by 15%. Reduces fall damage by 10% (swapped passives with bosmer in this regard to give bosmer back some aspect of stealth. Also, as cats, it seems fitting Khajit should receive less fall damage because cats always land on their feet)

NORD - I think there is a reason why ZOS hasn't touched them since the initial rework. I really like where they currently are. Could use a bump in the DPS race to keep up with other races in that department

Maximum resources: 1100 health 2000 stamina (bonus to stamina to keep them competitive as DPS)

Defensive bonus: 2310 cold resistance. Immunity to chilled status effect. (unchanged)

Sustain tool: When you take OR deal damage, generate 5 ultimate. 10 second cooldown. (modified to support nords in roles other than tank. Otherwise unchanged)

Set bonuses:
1. 2975 physical/spell resistance (only changed the values to accommodate the 2 set bonus limit established in the guidelines)
2. 129 weapon damage (to help them keep up in the DPS race, as they are currently falling behind)

Flavor passives: Increases experience gain with 2h. Increases duration of drinks by 15 minutes (unchanged)

ORC - I like where they currently are in v4.3.3 Good balance of damage and hardiness. Supports the lore.

Maximum resources: 2000 stamina 1100 health (unchanged)

Defensive bonus: 2310 Shock resistance. Immunity to concussed status effect. (not a very lore-based change. I just imagine it would be particularly difficult to give an orc a concussion. It also makes me happy to use bonus resistances to each of the elemental damage types in my racial rebalance. Freddy Krueger strikes.)

Sustain tool: Restore 600 health when you deal damage with a weapon ability, 4 second cooldown (unchanged)

Set bonuses: (unchanged)
1. 129 weapon damage
2. 129 weapon damage

Flavor passives: Increases experience gain with heavy armor by 15%. Increases crafting inspiration by 10% (unchanged)

REDGUARD - overall in a good spot. Could use a slight boost to help close the gap between orc/dunmer a bit.

Maximum resources: 2500 stamina 550 health (bump to stamina to boost their offensive capabilities slightly, the rest allocated into health)

Defensive bonus: 2310 physical resistance. Reduces effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15% (lore related bonus. Emphasizes their expertise in all things related to physical combat, while maintaining their lack of magical prowess, both defensively and offensively. Snare reduction unchanged)

Sustain tool: Dealing direct damage restores 250 stamina. 4 second cool down. (Nerfed to balance out the buff to their stamina cost reduction abilities, balanced to a level similar to the Breton's current sustain tool due to the new similarities between their set bonuses)

Set bonuses:
1. Reduces the stamina cost of abilities by 3.5% (again, hard to quantify. But chose to reduce stamina cost of all abilities to mirror breton, and also stick to my established quantification of cost reduction in terms of set bonuses derived from Seducer 5 pc bonus)
2. Reduces the stamina cost of abilities by 3.5%

Flavor passives: Increases experience gain with 1h and shield by 15%. Increases duration of foods by 15 minutes (unchanged)


You will notice most of the races remain relatively unchanged from what they currently are on 4.3.3, other than a slight bump in offensive power to the races that are currently under-performing. This is quite intended. My goal in this hypothetical and very fictional racial rebalance is to provide better balance to the races by establishing a set of standardized rules that racial passives must follow, while also maintaining each race's unique feel and viability for the roles they currently are associated with. I also want to help bridge the gap between some of the races in the latest DPS parses, while more or less maintaining the structure of the current hierarchy.

The following is my commentary on the latest DPS parsing analysis (again found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1
and here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459447/dps-comparison-of-races-on-pts-v4-3-3-pretty-graphs-analyses-and-farming-for-insightful-votes/p1) .

My Analysis:

STAMINA RACES
On the stamina side of things, Orc and Dunmer are consistently at the top of the DPS charts in controlled testing. This makes sense, as they offer the highest raw damage potential and the least amount of main-stat sustain, meaning they thrive in very controlled environments where sustain is a non-issue (ex/ dummy parses and very well organized and well practiced trial groups). Although they offer the highest amount of damage potential, they are also accompanied by the greatest amount of playing difficulty (on account of their limited sustain). This is their tradeoff, as to achieve their maximum potential the greatest amount of coordination in trials groups is required. These characteristics make up the first tier of DPS races, as there is a considerable gap between these top two races and the next best grouping of races.

Following the Orc and Dunmer are the 2nd tier DPS races: Khajit, Redguard, Bosmer, and Imperial. These races are characterized by having lower theoretical damage potential, but higher ease of play through increased sustain. This means that they do not rely on optimal scenarios (ex/ dummy parses and well practiced trials groups) to achieve their maximum potential. This benefits them in scenarios like solo play and PvP, where sustain could be an issue. As such, they are characterized as being more versatile, but less optimized for min/maxed builds.

The third tier of stamina DPS races is made up of races that possess inferior bonuses to stamina statistics, like Nord and the races typically considered as magicka users.

MAGICKA RACES
Similar to the stamina races, the magicka DPS parses can also be divided into three distinct tiers with similar characterizations (tier 1 = high damage potential + low sustain, tier 2 = magicka bonuses + sufficient sustain, tier 3= unoptimized). At the head of the pack in tier 1 of the magicka races are Altmer and Dunmer. Again, no surprises here as they have the highest theoretical max damage potential but lowest sustain. Uncharacteristically, however, Breton also joins them in this tier. I feel this is rather unintended, however, because Bretons possess the highest amount of sustain and therefore the greatest ease of use. Therefore, it seems that Breton should be bumped down into the second tier of magicka races, but this is not being reflected in the latest parses. We are going to leave them as an outlier for now.

Below Altmer and Dunmer, in the 2nd tier of magicka DPS races, are Khajit followed by Argonian. Again, these races are characterized by having better sustain, but lower max damage potential. That equates to greater ease of use, but less min/maxed damage potential.

The third tier of magicka DPS races is characterized by races unoptimized for magicka damage dealing roles.

THE PROBLEM AREAS
For the most part, ZOS has done an admittedly really good job balancing these races. The one that stands out, however, is Breton. Breton possesses characteristics most closely related to the 2nd tier DPS races: high sustain, but lower max potential damage in comparison to the tier 1 races. Because of their sustain, Bretons are incredibly easy to manage, yet the latest testing shows that they are also competing more closely with altmer/dunmer for the top magicka DPS parsing than with the other 2nd tier races. This to me indicates that Breton are over performing. I will try to address this in my rebalance.

Outside of this, everything else seems okay. There is a clear grouping at the top of the DPS charts for both stamina and magicka, followed by another clear cluster of races a bit lower. The gap between these two tiers, however, could always benefit by being smaller. Therefore I will also try to increase the damage potential of the 2nd tier races in my rebalance as well.

HOW THE REBALANCE AFFECTS EVERYTHING
In my rebalance, I left the damage potential and main-stat sustain of the Tier 1 DPS races relatively untouched (except for Breton, which in my opinion should drop down to tier 2 on account of their ease of use). This is quite intentional, as I already like where they are currently in DPS parsing. The exception to this is the Dunmer, that have suffered a max resource reduction to 1500 max stam and magicka because of the confines of my guidelines (no race will have more than 3000 max resources). In compensation, I've granted them access to off-stat utility. This change will admittedly lower their DPS parses, but still keep them clearly above the 2nd Tier DPS races. Furthermore, they will gain off-stat sustain in the tradeoff, emphasizing their hybrid nature in TES lore. This gives dunmer the slight disadvantage in dps parses when compare to "pure" races of similar characteristics (Altmer and orc) as a tradeoff for their hybrid viability.

I've attempted to drop Bretons down to the Tier 2 DPS races by removing a bit of their sustain in damage dealing roles (about the equivalent of ~34 magicka recovery). This should put them more in line with their stamina counterparts, Redguard and Bosmer, and seat them comfortably toward the top of the 2nd tier DPS races. I've given them access to main-stat restore through the use of non-damaging abilities so that they may retain their incredible sustain in the healing role and further differentiate them from the Altmer.

To all the 2nd tier DPS races, I've provided either a max resource or damage boost. This should result in a slight shift up in DPS parsing charts for the entire 2nd tier of races, and help to bridge the gap between the two tiers.

I've also experimented with giving Bosmer magicka viability (although they are still clearly better optimized for stamina), because I feel the roll dodge mechanic needed a complete overhaul. Plus, the more diversity the better, right?

For reference, here is an outline of the current DPS hierarchy:

MAGICKA
Tier 1
Altmer/dunmer
Breton

Then, about 1k dps lower:

Tier 2
Khajit
Argonian

Tier 3
Unoptimized

STAMINA
Tier 1
Orc/dunmer

Then, about 1k dps lower:

Tier 2
Redguard
Khajit/bosmer/imperial
Nord (presumably)

Tier 3
Unoptimized

Here is what I hope to accomplish with the rebalance:

MAGICKA
Tier 1
Altmer
Dunmer/Khajit

Then, less than 1k dps lower:

Tier 2
Breton
Imperial/argonian/bosmer

Tier 3
Unoptimized

STAMINA
Tier 1
Orc
Dunmer/Khajit
Nord

Then, less than 1k dps lower:

Tier 2
Redguard/bosmer
Imperial/argonian

Tier 3
Unoptimized


Anyway. I was bored and daydreaming, so go nuts.

P.S. A lot of these suggestions are not of my own creation, as I have picked quite a few of them up from reading suggestions in other threads. I apologize for not giving credit where credit is due, but I do not remember where I picked a lot of them up. If anything I've used is one of your ideas, please let me know and I'll happily give you the credit you deserve.

validifyedneb18_ESO

I like what you're trying to do, but I also think asking for this amount of (in some cases) total overhaul to the passives is probably going to make this just fall on deaf ears. ZOS have a system that is like 95% working, while your solution would put them back at like the 80% mark they where at 4 weeks ago.

Also the way in which you have done these quantifiers for passives is very similar to the system ZOS themselves used, so it could be argued you're simply repeating the same thing they did but just with different effects that ultimately equate to near the same thing.

There is also an increase in homogeneity of races which im not a fan of. Very happy to have no sustain on my Dunmer.

Edit: Interesting enough to read though, not to be a complete downer.

twing1_

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

I like what you're trying to do, but I also think asking for this amount of (in some cases) total overhaul to the passives is probably going to make this just fall on deaf ears. ZOS have a system that is like 95% working, while your solution would put them back at like the 80% mark they where at 4 weeks ago.

Also the way in which you have done these quantifiers for passives is very similar to the system ZOS themselves used, so it could be argued you're simply repeating the same thing they did but just with different effects that ultimately equate to near the same thing.

There is also an increase in homogeneity of races which im not a fan of. Very happy to have no sustain on my Dunmer.

Acknowledged and agreed. That's why I state in the disclaimer that in no version of reality these changes will come to fruition.

twing1_ wrote: »

DISCLAIMER: The following suggestions are in no way, shape, or form being implemented into the game in any version of reality. The following suggestions are solely the changes that I, as an individual with subjective preferences and more than probably incorrect views of balance, would like to see implemented into the game. By continuing to read this thread, you are acknowledging that both parties, the reader and the poster, are entitled to their own opinions, but only mine will be represented by this thread. I'm Freddy Krueger. You are in my nightmare. You're just along for the ride. But that's not to say that you can't achieve dream warrior status. Back up your suggestions/comments/criticisms/critiques with critical analysis and careful consideration in a calm, collected, and friendly way, and you may or may not see some of your ideas implemented into the original post.

As for my quantifications, I feel like I have done a good job at eliminating potential variance. This is inherent in the reduction of the number of "set bonuses" that need quantifying from ~6.5 to 2. This leaves less room for negotiation, as every race receives an equal amount of maximum resources independent from the set bonuses.

Additionally, only two "set bonuses" are quantified that aren't currently found on any item sets in the game: 3% cost reduction and 5% critical damage. All others are copy pasted directly from preexisting item sets.

This does contribute to homogeneity among the races (as all standardization does), but I feel like I've also done a good enough job at retaining each race's unique feel (and even adding lore-appropriate flavor into others that were previously lacking) to preserve their racial identities, while also providing much needed end-game viability to the races that needed it.

validifyedneb18_ESO

twing1_ wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

I like what you're trying to do, but I also think asking for this amount of (in some cases) total overhaul to the passives is probably going to make this just fall on deaf ears. ZOS have a system that is like 95% working, while your solution would put them back at like the 80% mark they where at 4 weeks ago.

Also the way in which you have done these quantifiers for passives is very similar to the system ZOS themselves used, so it could be argued you're simply repeating the same thing they did but just with different effects that ultimately equate to near the same thing.

There is also an increase in homogeneity of races which im not a fan of. Very happy to have no sustain on my Dunmer.

Acknowledged and agreed. That's why I state in the disclaimer that in no version of reality these changes will come to fruition.

twing1_ wrote: »

DISCLAIMER: The following suggestions are in no way, shape, or form being implemented into the game in any version of reality. The following suggestions are solely the changes that I, as an individual with subjective preferences and more than probably incorrect views of balance, would like to see implemented into the game. By continuing to read this thread, you are acknowledging that both parties, the reader and the poster, are entitled to their own opinions, but only mine will be represented by this thread. I'm Freddy Krueger. You are in my nightmare. You're just along for the ride. But that's not to say that you can't achieve dream warrior status. Back up your suggestions/comments/criticisms/critiques with critical analysis and careful consideration in a calm, collected, and friendly way, and you may or may not see some of your ideas implemented into the original post.

Yeah I read that and forgot about it by the end lol

twing1_

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

I like what you're trying to do, but I also think asking for this amount of (in some cases) total overhaul to the passives is probably going to make this just fall on deaf ears. ZOS have a system that is like 95% working, while your solution would put them back at like the 80% mark they where at 4 weeks ago.

Also the way in which you have done these quantifiers for passives is very similar to the system ZOS themselves used, so it could be argued you're simply repeating the same thing they did but just with different effects that ultimately equate to near the same thing.

There is also an increase in homogeneity of races which im not a fan of. Very happy to have no sustain on my Dunmer.

Acknowledged and agreed. That's why I state in the disclaimer that in no version of reality these changes will come to fruition.

twing1_ wrote: »

DISCLAIMER: The following suggestions are in no way, shape, or form being implemented into the game in any version of reality. The following suggestions are solely the changes that I, as an individual with subjective preferences and more than probably incorrect views of balance, would like to see implemented into the game. By continuing to read this thread, you are acknowledging that both parties, the reader and the poster, are entitled to their own opinions, but only mine will be represented by this thread. I'm Freddy Krueger. You are in my nightmare. You're just along for the ride. But that's not to say that you can't achieve dream warrior status. Back up your suggestions/comments/criticisms/critiques with critical analysis and careful consideration in a calm, collected, and friendly way, and you may or may not see some of your ideas implemented into the original post.

Yeah I read that and forgot about it by the end lol

understandably so, it is an admittedly long post lol

Strider__Roshin

If Orcs and Nords were to swap passives it would be more lore friendly with the exception of the frost resistance. If we want to be lore friendly Nords and Redguards should be the best warriors followed by Orcs, and high elves should be the most powerful mages.

twing1_

Daus wrote: »

If Orcs and Nords were to swap passives it would be more lore friendly with the exception of the frost resistance. If we want to be lore friendly Nords and Redguards should be the best warriors followed by Orcs, and high elves should be the most powerful mages.

I feel like, for the most part, both on PTS currently and in my post this is fairly accurately depicted. Nords are lagging a bit, but otherwise Altmer are the best mages and redguards are fighting for a top warrior spot.

My buff to nords will only help this, however.

twing1_

Double post

Kulvar

As you said, they have to resort to mithridatism to get their poison resistance, meaning they don't have it naturally.
Argonian is the only race immune to the disease of Black Marsh (and others) naturally.
Disease resistance makes much more sense than poison resistance.

And they're not supposed to be sturdy ! They're thieves with some magical abilities.

Legend
⬤ Warrior/Tank
⬤ Thief/DD
⬤ Mage/Healer

Daggerfall racials:
Male:
• +10 Agility ⬤
• +10 Speed ⬤
Female
• +10 Strength ⬤
All
• -10 Endurance MALUS ⬤

Morrowind racials:
• Athletics +5 ⬤
• Alchemy +5 ⬤
• Illusion +5 ⬤
• Medium Armor +5 ⬤
• Mysticism +5 ⬤
• Spear +5 ⬤
• Unarmored +5 ⬤
• Water Breathing
• Resist Poison
• Resist Common Disease

Oblivion racials:
Male:
• +10 Agility ⬤
• +10 Speed ⬤
• -10 Willpower MALUS ⬤
Female:
• +10 Intelligence ⬤
All:
• -10 Endurance MALUS ⬤
• -10 Personality MALUS ⬤
• +10 Athletics ⬤
• +10 Security ⬤
• +5 Alchemy ⬤
• +5 Blade ⬤
• +5 Hand to hand ⬤
• +5 Illusion ⬤
• +5 Mysticism ⬤
• Disease Resistance
• Poison Immunity
• Water Breathing

Skyrim racials:
• Lockpicking +10 ⬤
• Pickpocket +5 ⬤
• Sneak +5 ⬤
• Light Armor +5 ⬤⬤
• Alteration +5 ⬤
• Restoration +5 ⬤
• Resist Disease
• Waterbreathing
• Histskin

twing1_

Kulvar wrote: »

As you said, they have to resort to mithridatism to get their poison resistance, meaning they don't have it naturally.
Argonian is the only race immune to the disease of Black Marsh (and others) naturally.
Disease resistance makes much more sense than poison resistance.

And they're not supposed to be sturdy ! They're thieves with some magical abilities.

Legend
⬤ Warrior/Tank
⬤ Thief/DD
⬤ Mage/Healer

Daggerfall racials:
Male:
• +10 Agility ⬤
• +10 Speed ⬤
Female
• +10 Strength ⬤
All
• -10 Endurance MALUS ⬤

Morrowind racials:
• Athletics +5 ⬤
• Alchemy +5 ⬤
• Illusion +5 ⬤
• Medium Armor +5 ⬤
• Mysticism +5 ⬤
• Spear +5 ⬤
• Unarmored +5 ⬤
• Water Breathing
• Resist Poison
• Resist Common Disease

Oblivion racials:
Male:
• +10 Agility ⬤
• +10 Speed ⬤
• -10 Willpower MALUS ⬤
Female:
• +10 Intelligence ⬤
All:
• -10 Endurance MALUS ⬤
• -10 Personality MALUS ⬤
• +10 Athletics ⬤
• +10 Security ⬤
• +5 Alchemy ⬤
• +5 Blade ⬤
• +5 Hand to hand ⬤
• +5 Illusion ⬤
• +5 Mysticism ⬤
• Disease Resistance
• Poison Immunity
• Water Breathing

Skyrim racials:
• Lockpicking +10 ⬤
• Pickpocket +5 ⬤
• Sneak +5 ⬤
• Light Armor +5 ⬤⬤
• Alteration +5 ⬤
• Restoration +5 ⬤
• Resist Disease
• Waterbreathing
• Histskin

Valid points. I've granted the extra 1000 resources to stamina to better reflect their small but equal bonuses to athletics/thievery and magicka use. I've granted them weapon damage also with their current set bonus of spell damage. I've also given them back disease resistance, and given poison resistance back to the bosmer.

I left their bonuses to health and healing received as to not over-emphasize their relatively small bonuses to thievery and spell use relative to other races. I also believe that being tanky for so long in ESO has itself contributed to their lore as a very durable and hardy species, capable of withstanding punishment.

validifyedneb18_ESO

It would be fun to theorize what racials would look like if ESO where more of an RPG. Like with the old Altmer weakness to elements allowing them more space for higher magica pools etc.

CurvedSwords123

I absolutely love your suggestions! Great job!

LiquidPony

Interesting choices all around. One thing I would say is that Bosmer are unquestionably a Tier 1 stam DPS race with these bonuses, and probably the #1 stamina race overall.

The sustain tool you gave them is effectively +200 stamina per second (or, the equivalent to 400 buffed stam regen, which is roughly equivalent to 225-240-ish character sheet stam regen). Then you added +129 stam regen. Meaning, they have even better stam sustain here than they do on PTS v4.3.3. I would increase that effect cooldown to 6 seconds, which would make their total stam sustain roughly equivalent to what it is on PTS v4.3.3 while still granting them some magicka sustain as well.

Then you also gave them +1487 pen which is an incredibly powerful bonus. Not only is it on paper stronger than a +129 weapon damage bonus (even if they're both technically "1 set bonus"), it also gives Bosmer the flexibility to tweak their build and drop The Lover (i.e., some combination of Kra'gh or one sharpened DW weapon or a slight Piercing CP adjustment). IMO penetration is just too strong and too valuable to balance as racial bonus.

In the current PTS, as far as general stamina damage/sustain goes, Bosmer have +2000 stam and +258 stamina recovery.

You've essentially given them +2000 stam, +354 stamina recovery, and +1487 penetration.

So my suggestions would be:
1. Increase sustain tool cooldown to 6 seconds or reduce the resources returned to ~525
2. Swap the physical/spell penetration bonus to a weapon/spell critical bonus of +4%

And even with these suggestions I suspect Bosmer would still be too strong as a stam race, since we've still just effectively taken their PTS v4.3.3 bonuses and stacked +4% crit on top of what they already have.

miteba

I read all the disclaimer and the guidelines very carefully ... and i stopped there!
Why?
Just because i had a feeling that your changes will be awesome and i know that (even if some Devs look at it) they will ignore it and then i will be disapointed...
You had my awesome just for the intro and trying to better the game 😉

twing1_

LiquidPony wrote: »

Interesting choices all around. One thing I would say is that Bosmer are unquestionably a Tier 1 stam DPS race with these bonuses, and probably the #1 stamina race overall.

The sustain tool you gave them is effectively +200 stamina per second (or, the equivalent to 400 buffed stam regen, which is roughly equivalent to 225-240-ish character sheet stam regen). Then you added +129 stam regen. Meaning, they have even better stam sustain here than they do on PTS v4.3.3. I would increase that effect cooldown to 6 seconds, which would make their total stam sustain roughly equivalent to what it is on PTS v4.3.3 while still granting them some magicka sustain as well.

Then you also gave them +1487 pen which is an incredibly powerful bonus. Not only is it on paper stronger than a +129 weapon damage bonus (even if they're both technically "1 set bonus"), it also gives Bosmer the flexibility to tweak their build and drop The Lover (i.e., some combination of Kra'gh or one sharpened DW weapon or a slight Piercing CP adjustment). IMO penetration is just too strong and too valuable to balance as racial bonus.

In the current PTS, as far as general stamina damage/sustain goes, Bosmer have +2000 stam and +258 stamina recovery.

You've essentially given them +2000 stam, +354 stamina recovery, and +1487 penetration.

So my suggestions would be:
1. Increase sustain tool cooldown to 6 seconds or reduce the resources returned to ~525
2. Swap the physical/spell penetration bonus to a weapon/spell critical bonus of +4%

And even with these suggestions I suspect Bosmer would still be too strong as a stam race, since we've still just effectively taken their PTS v4.3.3 bonuses and stacked +4% crit on top of what they already have.

Hmm interesting point of view on their sustain tool.

I was trying to make it similar to what is currently on live but didn't maths enough to do so. I figured because this sustain tool isn't affected by %modifiers, it should be higher than a flat 129 Stam regen (as with medium armor and potions this would bump up to 1.48x this value, then cp is added on top of that).

But you bring up good points. And for the magicka recovery, the sustain tool I currently have for them scales to the highest max resource, so if a bosmer is specced for magicka, this would act as their magicka sustain.

Good points all around, although I don't feel like the penetration is too strong of a bonus. Realistically, in order to drop the lover they would need to run both kra'gh and a sharpened offhand, so they would be giving up a superior monster set (velidreth/selenes) in addition to a potential 3.5% critical in the loss of a precise offhand. Additionally, all other tier 2 dps races will be receiving a bonus to their max primary stat to help close the gap between the tier 1 races. Bosmer would not be receiving this bonus, so the flat penetration helps to keep them in line with the other tier 2s when you take this into account.

I will drop the values of the sustain tool, but will keep the penetration for the time being.

I would ideally have them competing as second tier damage dealers.

Edit: I did do enough maths, my math was just way wrong for the sustain tool. I calculated for an equivalent numeric level of stamina regen... But on every second instead of every two. Good catch, bumped this value down to much lower numbers (half).

twing1_

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

It would be fun to theorize what racials would look like if ESO where more of an RPG. Like with the old Altmer weakness to elements allowing them more space for higher magica pools etc.

Yeah I considered implementing this into the thread, but ultimately decided it would bring them too far out of line with the other races. I still left them the noticeably weaker defensive bonus, however.

Wuuffyy

Love it!

luen79rwb17_ESO

Something like this is what I was expecting from the racial rework when they announced it. Flat stat bonuses across all races customizable for the player and very small boosts for each race. Very very small. Veeeerry small

JinMori

Not bad at all to be honest.

The only things i 100 % disagree with are, altmer should have 3k mag, since they are a magicka race, and also dunmer should be more magicka focused than stamina, just like on live or pts, and i don't really enjoy the heavy attack suggestion much, other than that i pretty much like all of them to varying degrees.

Although i would really like to see % buffs to stats, not flat values.

Wuuffyy

JinMori wrote: »

Not bad at all to be honest.

The only things i 100 % disagree with are, altmer should have 3k mag, since they are a magicka race, and i don't really enjoy the heavy attack suggestion much, other than that i pretty much like all of them to varying degrees.

Although i would really like to see % buffs to stats, not flat values.

Then orc should have 3k stam... agreed?

twing1_

JinMori wrote: »

Not bad at all to be honest.

The only things i 100 % disagree with are, altmer should have 3k mag, since they are a magicka race, and also dunmer should be more magicka focused than stamina, just like on live or pts, and i don't really enjoy the heavy attack suggestion much, other than that i pretty much like all of them to varying degrees.

Although i would really like to see % buffs to stats, not flat values.

Altmer are currently the top dps parsing race.

I intentionally did not add to the offensive power of the top parsing races, as to help the other races catch up a bit. I feel like this would be the most balanced approach to... well... balancing the races.

MLGProPlayer

I disagree with your goals.

Why do you want Dunmer to be tier 1 in both magicka and stamina DPS while you want Khajiit in tier 2? What makes Dunmer a more "worthy" hybrid race?

Also, I disagree with hybrids being ahead of specialized races. Having Dunmer ahead of Breton on magicka DD and Redguard/Bosmer on stamina DD is also not reasonable IMO.

For me, I think the optimal solution would have been to create 3 optimal races for every role, one in each faction (another poster made a thread on this):

Magicka DPS/healer: Breton/Altmer/Dunmer
Stamina DPS: Redguard/Khajiit/Argonian
Tank: Orc/Bosmer/Nord

I would have then allocated passives based on role rather than race, so all stamina DD races would have the same passives, all magicka DD would have the same passives, etc. It would still give racial choice meaning since it would determine the role you play most effectively, but also ensure perfect balance within the role.

twing1_

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I disagree with your goals.

Why do you want Dunmer to be tier 1 in both magicka and stamina DPS while you want Khajiit in tier 2? What makes Dunmer a more "worthy" hybrid race?

Also, I disagree with hybrids being ahead of specialized races. Having Dunmer ahead of Breton on magicka DD and Redguard/Bosmer on stamina DD is also not reasonable IMO.

For me, I think the optimal solution would have been to create 3 optimal races for every role, one in each faction (another poster made a thread on this):

Magicka DPS/healer: Breton/Altmer/Dunmer
Stamina DPS: Redguard/Khajiit/Argonian
Tank: Orc/Bosmer/Nord

I would have then allocated passives based on role rather than race, so all stamina DD races would have the same passives, all magicka DD would have the same passives, etc. It would still give racial choice meaning since it would determine the role you play most effectively, but also ensure perfect balance within the role.

As to why I put dunmer ahead of Khajit, it's because Khajit have access to main stat sustain while dunmer do not. The tradeoff is between max potential damage and ease of playing. The more sustain, the easier it is to play, thus the lower the maximum potential damage should be. Conversely, the lower sustain equates to a greater difficulty in playing, so it should result in a higher theoretical max damage potential. It's a basic risk/reward balancing.

This is the same tradeoff between orc and redguard/bosmer, and also between altmer and Breton (although this one is currently not being reflected in v4.3.3 according to latest DPS parses).

And in my scheme, hybrids would not out-perform "pure" races of similar characteristics. Let's take altmer and dunmer for instance. They both have zero main-stat sustain in damage dealing roles, so they should theoretically have the highest damage potential. The pure race, altmer, pulls ahead (by 500 max magicka) while the hybrid race, dunmer, doesn't parse as high.

The comparison between Khajit and the other 2nd tier races isn't as clear cut. This is on account of Khajit possessing about half as much sustain as the other races in this category. To make up for it, they also possess more bonuses to damage potential (crit damage). This balance results in them parsing very very similarly to these other tier two races, but comes at the cost of being slightly more difficult to play (because of less sustain). It is only because of this tradeoff that they are parsing on similar levels, whereas if they were a "pure" race with a similar sustain/damage potential balance, they would be pulling slightly ahead of these other tier 2 races that are focused primarily on sustain.

And it is true that designating each race to a specific role and then assigning identical passives to each race associated with that role, one for each faction, would unquestionably provide the most balance between the factions. Doing this, however, I feel would not only pigeon hole certain races into performing only one role, but also cut into each race's unique identity (if they have identical passives, then how are they different from the other races of that same designated role?).

My goal in these changes was to not only provide a more fair balance between the races, but to also allow each race to be played in a variety of different roles and classes, all the while maintaining their racial flavor derived from traditional TES lore.

JinMori

twing1_ wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Not bad at all to be honest.

The only things i 100 % disagree with are, altmer should have 3k mag, since they are a magicka race, and also dunmer should be more magicka focused than stamina, just like on live or pts, and i don't really enjoy the heavy attack suggestion much, other than that i pretty much like all of them to varying degrees.

Although i would really like to see % buffs to stats, not flat values.

Altmer are currently the top dps parsing race.

I intentionally did not add to the offensive power of the top parsing races, as to help the other races catch up a bit. I feel like this would be the most balanced approach to... well... balancing the races.

But if we all get 3 k stats, then it's only logical.

Although i would prefer % modifications, and yes i'm fine with orc having 3 k stam wolf.

Also, i don;t really like the health recovery passive, i am a pure dps guy, but it's fine.

satanio

Dont like it to be honest.

grannas211

I like those old “pick your own passives” threads more than this. And I really don’t like those threads.

Darlon

Not going to happen anyways...

idk

OP has disregarded part of what Zos is attempting to accomplish and that is to create choices for us in choosing a race for a build.

The first and most significant part that is being disregarded is passives clearly designed to benefit hybrids. The summer having over 3500 max stat is not a problem since tgat Passive is weaker than the 2k Magicka the High Elf gets

In other words, the over simplification OP has presented does not actually make for better balance.

Further, the choices we have been given per,of us to choose between more damage or sustain or resistance. And overall the balance is pretty good. So again, the over simplification actually reduces our choices without really improving balance.

twing1_

idk wrote: »

OP has disregarded part of what Zos is attempting to accomplish and that is to create choices for us in choosing a race for a build.

The first and most significant part that is being disregarded is passives clearly designed to benefit hybrids. The summer having over 3500 max stat is not a problem since tgat Passive is weaker than the 2k Magicka the High Elf gets

In other words, the over simplification OP has presented does not actually make for better balance.

Further, the choices we have been given per,of us to choose between more damage or sustain or resistance. And overall the balance is pretty good. So again, the over simplification actually reduces our choices without really improving balance.

@idk

Interesting point you bring up in the hybrid viability of dunmers. Especially when I've actually allocated to them what I believed to be more hybrid utility than they currently have on v4.3.3.

From a statistical perspective, my variation on them possess more, not less, hybrid stats than currently found on PTS. This is due to their added off-stat sustain found in their sustain tool, which is actually the strongest of all the sustain tools in terms of potency (215 resources/2 seconds, where the next runner up is found on both bosmer and Breton with 200 resources/2 seconds).

While it comes at the cost of 375 max resources in both the stamina and magicka department (750 total), the added bonus to sustain (the rough equivalent of ~140 adjusted resource recovery, after taking into account % modifiers) i believe more than makes up for this. This is evidenced by standard item set bonuses granting either 1096 max resources (which 750 falls below) and also 129 resource recovery (which 140 exceeds).

Therefore, my changes to dunmer actually provide more hybrid utility to their race, albeit in the form of sustain and not max resources. This is only the case, of course, if the current balance between preexisting item set bonuses is to be observed.

This is a slight reduction to their raw damage potential, but as their current parsing shows, they can afford the hit (because they are currently roughly tied with the top dps parses in both magicka and stamina). Their added off-stat utility would even allow hybrid builds to make up for this damage loss in other areas via mundus or gear (as they could then dedicate less of these resources to sustaining themselves and instead focus on increasing their damage)

This was my intention, as it would seem it provides even more choices to make in terms of build diversity, while also (barely) limiting the damage potential of players who choose to play this race as strictly magicka or strictly stamina (endgame builds) to give the slight edge to the "pure" races.

twing1_

satanio wrote: »

Dont like it to be honest.

grannas211 wrote: »

I like those old “pick your own passives” threads more than this. And I really don’t like those threads.

I'm having a hard time finding the construction in these criticisms.

Providing suggestions, or at the very least insight into the nature of your concerns would make leaps and bounds toward supporting your claim and provoking meaningful discussion.

twing1_

JinMori wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Not bad at all to be honest.

The only things i 100 % disagree with are, altmer should have 3k mag, since they are a magicka race, and also dunmer should be more magicka focused than stamina, just like on live or pts, and i don't really enjoy the heavy attack suggestion much, other than that i pretty much like all of them to varying degrees.

Although i would really like to see % buffs to stats, not flat values.

Altmer are currently the top dps parsing race.

I intentionally did not add to the offensive power of the top parsing races, as to help the other races catch up a bit. I feel like this would be the most balanced approach to... well... balancing the races.

But if we all get 3 k stats, then it's only logical.

Although i would prefer % modifications, and yes i'm fine with orc having 3 k stam wolf.

Also, i don;t really like the health recovery passive, i am a pure dps guy, but it's fine.

I think in this case we have different conceptual views of balance.

To me, balance means bridging the gap between the differences between races in their effectiveness at particular roles.

Giving more offensive power to the races already at the top of the hierarchy would only widen the gaps between different races further. This is the exact opposite of my idea of balance.

It is for this reason that both altmer and orc did not receive bonuses to their max main stat, magicka and stamina respectively.