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DPS Comparison of RACES on PTS v4.3.3 (Pretty Graphs, Analyses, and Farming for Insightful Votes)

HatchetHaro
HatchetHaro
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(EDIT: Changed "pandering" to "farming" in the title because I don't know English)

And so comes and goes the fourth week of the PTS. Let's see if the changes for v4.3.3 actually mean anything. This time, I'm doing it with a testing methodology that is actually not fundamentally flawed.

AIM
To provide an accurate set of data concerning damage difference across races, using Magicka Templars as an example.
All of the documentation on my testing through all PTS cycles is in my other thread.

METHODOLOGY
Consistency is still key. The goal of my parses isn't trying for the highest number each time; the goal is to replicate each parse perfectly across races, including identical rotations, and identical builds.

In fact, the elimination of human error is so important that I have resorted to using AutoHotKey scripts for my parsing. Not just that; due to the complexity of all of my rotations that include buffing up, recasting buffs, using potions, and taking orbs. I have created a program in Processing that writes my scripts. Automating automation. Amazing.
Just as a disclaimer, because people will definitely comment on it: I do not condone the use of macros for Live gameplay, especially when it also affects other players. This instance of gameplay automation is done only on the PTS, and is solely for the purpose of collecting consistent and reliable data on these changes.

Another thing is I have developed my own spreadsheets and formulas to eliminate as much RNG as possible. Variance is always going to be a thing when it comes to parsing, especially with so much RNG in play. The RNG that affects our parses the most is our Crit Chance; even with 10 parses per race, the Crit Chance RNG can vary wildly; my formula recalculates all of my parses with a normalized Critical Chance based on my stats, completely eliminating any and all lucky and unlucky Crits in play within parses.

I did not equalize all the Health values between races for my parses. While it is someone's preferred way of doing it for the misguided sake of "balanced values", it produces results that are unfairly skewed towards races with more Health, when in fact DPS in scorepushing trials do not do that. While Magicka/Stamina can be traded for Health for more survivability, the opposite cannot happen if you'd rather have more DPS, and every one would rather have more DPS. I will go more in-depth into this topic below in my analyses.

BUILDS
I have selected six races to be compared: Khajiit, Altmer, Dunmer, Breton, Argonian, and Nord. These are typical Magicka races aside from the Nord, which is representative of a race with no racial passives in the context of Magicka DPS.

These are all Magicka Templar parses on the 6mil target skeleton, with Worm, Elemental Drain, and Orbs provided by an assistant.

Builds: https://imgur.com/a/776bnwp

5/1/1 Zaan + Perfected Siroria armor, Infused on big pieces, Divines on small, all Magicka glyphs.
Spell Strategist jewelry, 1 Infused 2 Bloodthirsty, all Spell Damage glyphs.
Frontbar Spell Strategist Inferno Staff, Infused with Flame glyph.
Backbar Maelstrom Inferno Staff, Infused with Berserker glyph.

Vampirism stage 2 and above.

Mundus: The Thief (Critical Chance)

Food:
Khajiit, Altmer, Dunmer, Argonian, Nord - Clockwork Citrus Filet (Magicka + Health + Magicka Recovery)
Breton - Mistral Banana-Bunny Hash (Magicka + Health)

Provided buffs: Elemental Drain, Orbs, and Worm's Raiment.

Rotations
1. Purifying Light > Blockade of Fire > Vampire's Bane > Blazing Spear > 4x Elemental Weapon
2. Purifying Light > Blockade of Fire > Elemental Weapon > Blazing Spear > Vampire's Bane > 3x Elemental Weapon
3. Purifying Light > Blockade of Fire > Elemental Weapon > Blazing Spear > 3x Elemental Weapon > Vampire's Bane
4. Purifying Light > Blockade of Fire > Elemental Weapon > Blazing Spear > 2x Elemental Weapon > Channeled Acceleration

Refresh Channeled Focus on cooldown, replacing one Elemental Weapon cast.
Spell Symmetry is slotted and is used before a Blazing Spear cast, replacing one Elemental Weapon cast, when a particular race needs the sustain.
Radiant Oppression is slotted, but is not used. Executes are unpredictable and can make results vary a lot between parses. My scripts are also not reactive; they have no way of detecting when a dummy reaches a certain Health threshold and switching to a different rotation seamlessly. In any case, as far as I know, all of my abilities scale the exact same way, including Light Attacks, so in terms of damage difference between races, this is still accurate.

The Argonian and Khajiit did not need to cast Spell Symmetry; the Altmer, Dunmer, and Breton only needed to cast Spell Symmetry once; the Nord needed to cast it twice.

There is, however, one single caveat that changed how I parsed in this one compared to previous PTS iterations: Combat Metrics does not detect the 10% extra Critical Damage from Khajiiti, and calculates the total damage from Critical Hits based on the lower 190% Critical Damage rather than the actual 200% Critical Damage that Khajiiti have. As a result, all of my Khajiiti parses were done without that 10% Critical Damage passive, and then scaled up along with the Crit Chance normalization. Fortunately, nothing else is changed; I was still able to pull off the full static rotation without any change, so as far as I am concerned, these scaled results are still fully accurate to their performance with that additional Crit Damage.

RESULTS
Many people here are suckers for pretty looking graphs, so I have made one right here. These are the results I have with all of the parses, with fully normalized Crit Chance.
XAs7Pqi.png
I personally prefer numbers, though.

Raw parse data from CMX
dvbEhZ2.png
These are all numbers I've gotten directly in the parse window of Combat Metrics. The Critical Chance in each of these parses are not normalized, and can vary wildly, which will create discrepancies and inaccuracies in my results, so do not take these numbers as they are. The Khajiiti parses were done without their Critical Damage passive; check reasoning above. Again, I was able to do the full rotation without modifying anything, so there should be no discrepancies in results when I scale those numbers up.

Calculated parse numbers with normalized Critical Chance
UWSvXSQ.png
This is done through manually calculating the Critical Values according to what we have in our builds, which is 51.8% Critical Chance and 190% Critical Damage (200% for Khajiiti). This also fixes the previous damage numbers from Khajiiti. These are the numbers that are the most representative of the damage differences between races at the moment.

Calculated parse numbers with non-Templar Critical Damage
HMgE3rF.png
This is a recalculation of the previous numbers to see how the Templar Critical Damage passive affects races, Khajiiti in particular. Funnily enough, this change to Khajiiti Crit actually makes them worse on Templars and Nightblades compared to Dragonknights and Wardens in relation to other races, which is the complete opposite of how they were in previous PTS iterations. I just find this fascinating. Can't say anything for Sorcerers though.

ANALYSIS
The Khajiiti Critical Damage Passive

With this Khajiiti change from 8% Critical Chance to 10% Critical Damage, we see a pretty sizable nerf of their damage, down to below the three main Magicka races.

What is more concerning, really, is how this 10% Critical Damage scales; basically, what this means is that they will get less of a benefit in terms of damage compared to other races when they receive buffs like Major Force or use either Templar or Nightblades.

I understand why people would be concerned about this change; people naturally dislike nerfs. However, I believe that the nerf, PvE damage-wise, actually puts them in healthy spot for DPS. I'd personally rather have Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons brought down in power to be more in line with Khajiiti because what we have right now is already too big of a DPS difference between the top and bottom races. In Murkmire, the DPS difference between top and bottom race is 5.68%, which is already more than enough to inspire a lot of elitism within the end-game raiding community; on PTS 4.3.3, that number is 6.89%, way too high.

I've also discussed this with some of my PvP pals, and they said that this change makes Khajiiti too powerful in terms of PvP, especially in the way of gank builds. I am personally not a PvP person myself, but I believe them.

If anything, I would change that passive to 3% Critical Chance and 5% Critical Damage; it would serve as a decent middle-ground for PvP power while keeping them at a really healthy spot for PvE.

Balance and Shoehorning Races into Support Roles

I am still extremely concerned about Argonians: they are still the lowest among the Magicka races in terms of DPS. The gist of it is that ZOS intends on shoehorning them into the healer role, and that is quite unfair to the people who play Argonians.

It all highlights a fundamental flaw in the current iteration of racial passives for Wrathstone: the roles and the stat categories they represent don't really mix in terms of balance.

I'll put it this way: there is a stat and effectiveness ceiling for DPS, and there is none of that for any other role. What I mean by that is that an amazing player will be able to tank and PvP to the same effectiveness on an Altmer as they can on an Argonian, including Engulfing Flames and Alkosh uptimes, given that the player has enough skill to pull it off, because those roles depend mostly on player skill rather than stats. The same amazing player cannot do the same for DPSing because those are inherently limited by stats, not skill.

To put this into more logical terms, here are the categories racial passives are broken down into and the roles that use them in PvE:

a) Stamina Damage + Sustain (Max Stamina, Weapon Damage, Weapon Crit, Stamina Recovery) - Stamina DPS
b) Magicka Damage + Sustain (Max Magicka, Spell Damage, Spell Crit, Magicka Recovery) - Magicka DPS, Healing
c) Utility (Max Health, Healing Done, survival stuff) - Tanking, Healing, PvP

The big issue here is the difference in the nature of the stats themselves and the roles that use those stats: Magicka/Stamina passives can be swapped for Health/Utility stats because utility roles need 2-3 of those stats, but Health/Utility passives cannot be exchanged for Magicka/Stamina stats for DPS because the DPS role only needs either Magicka or Stamina stats.

That's the key: a) and b) can be swapped for more c), but a) cannot be swapped for b), b) cannot be swapped for a), and c) cannot be swapped for either a) or b). This is just the nature of what these roles require in PvE.

For example, if a Redguard wants to tank, sure, they're not the best race for it, but due to their additional Stamina pool, they are able to put fewer points into Stamina and more points into Health to better match an Imperial, therefore converting Stamina to Health, because utility roles make use of Health and at least one additional resource. Their racial passives don't exactly limit their ability to tank effectively.

However, damage roles do not use any utility resources, and therefore any utility passives they get cannot be converted into something useful for them; for example, if a Nord wants to be a Stamina DPS, they don't have anything to DPS with other than a measly 1500 Stamina and no sustain to speak of, and there is no way they can convert the Health they have into extra Stamina that they can make use of. This limits the scope of their ability to do anything other than tanking.

To bring this back to Argonians, their 6% Healing Done passive does not do anything for their DPS, compared to the Spell Damage bonus that Altmer have which boosts their DPS and their Healing Done. Basically, Argonians are shoehorned into a support role without any flexibility. Heck, even sustain, the main draw for Argonians for the healing role, is overshadowed by Bretons on Live, and with the huge buff to Breton sustain for Wrathstone along with the nerf to Argonian sustain, Argonian healers don't even stand a chance.

This is the thing: both Stamina and Magicka passives are always going to be more useful than Utility passives; they are ultimately the most flexible and useful. The only DPS passive that does not really scale well into other roles is Weapon Damage.

Real quick, I'll also just add that Health set bonuses are 10% more potent than equivalent Stamina and Magicka set bonuses. Enchantments are the exact same way. This relationship between Health and Stam/Mag, however, is nonexistent in the Racial Passives. Basically, ZOS has failed to balance those on that front as well.

Imperials

I didn't test Imperials in anything, but I heard that they're viable for Stamina DPS now with their new 3% cost reduction to all abilities.

I have to say, I love, love, love this change. This ties in to my points above, about how races shouldn't be shoehorned into utility roles; with the change from bash + block cost reduction to full 3% reduction of all abilities, they become viable as DDs as well without buffing their ability as tanks. This is the only change here that gives me a sliver of hope that the same kind of treatment can be applied to Nords and Argonians.

ADDENDUM
I had originally planned to do Stamplar, Stamsorc, Magsorc as well. However, each one of these sessions take about 1 hour to do per race, not including preparation for the testing such as coding my scripts and getting my spreadsheets ready, as well as creating the characters and preparing my gear. Unfortunately, I will not have any Stamina results for this PTS cycle.
Edited by HatchetHaro on February 17, 2019 10:04PM
Best Argonian NA
11 Argonian characters, 13 with Necromancers incoming

>How the meta will shift with Wrathstone<

>In-depth PTS 4.3.x Testing Data<

>PTS 4.3.3 Findings and Analysis<
  • nsmurfer
    nsmurfer
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    @ZOS_Gilliam @Joy_Division @Alcast @FeaR Turbo @Masel @Checkmath @ZOS_GinaBruno


    Now another test shows Khajiit underperforming now without Major Force or Shadow. Add those two in the mix and every race will beat Khajiit in DPS. ALready previous tests are showing Imperials, a tanking race beating khajiit in stam all while having better sustain in both magicka and stamina, higher resources, and BIS tanking with ultimate cost reduction.
    Edited by nsmurfer on February 16, 2019 7:23PM
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    nsmurfer wrote: »
    @ZOS_Gilliam @Joy_Division @Alcast @FeaR Turbo @Masel @Checkmath @ZOS_GinaBruno


    Now another test shows Khajiit underperforming now without Major Force or Shadow. Add those two in the mix and every race will beat Khajiit in DPS. ALready previous tests are showing Imperials, beating khajiit in stam all while having better sustain, higher resources, and BIS tanking with ultimate cost reduction.

    No, Argonians are still shafted. Khajiiti are still the superior furries.

    They're really not in that bad of a spot in terms of DPS; I'd say that spot should be the target for other races to scale to.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 16, 2019 7:25PM
    Best Argonian NA
    11 Argonian characters, 13 with Necromancers incoming

    >How the meta will shift with Wrathstone<

    >In-depth PTS 4.3.x Testing Data<

    >PTS 4.3.3 Findings and Analysis<
  • nsmurfer
    nsmurfer
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    nsmurfer wrote: »
    @ZOS_Gilliam @Joy_Division @Alcast @FeaR Turbo @Masel @Checkmath @ZOS_GinaBruno


    Now another test shows Khajiit underperforming now without Major Force or Shadow. Add those two in the mix and every race will beat Khajiit in DPS. ALready previous tests are showing Imperials, beating khajiit in stam all while having better sustain, higher resources, and BIS tanking with ultimate cost reduction.

    No, Argonians are still shafted. Khajiiti are still the superior furries.

    They can be great tanks, not so much khajiit.
  • Ashryn
    Ashryn
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    No Bosmer?
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    nsmurfer wrote: »
    nsmurfer wrote: »
    @ZOS_Gilliam @Joy_Division @Alcast @FeaR Turbo @Masel @Checkmath @ZOS_GinaBruno


    Now another test shows Khajiit underperforming now without Major Force or Shadow. Add those two in the mix and every race will beat Khajiit in DPS. ALready previous tests are showing Imperials, beating khajiit in stam all while having better sustain, higher resources, and BIS tanking with ultimate cost reduction.

    No, Argonians are still shafted. Khajiiti are still the superior furries.

    They can be great tanks, not so much khajiit.
    I think you've heard of Woeler; he's a great Khajiit tank active in the ESO end-game community. Conversely, you don't really hear much about great DPS on non-meta races.

    The thing is that tanking is a role that is less limited by stats and more by player skill, with no stat cap to their effectiveness. A great player can tank just as effectively on an Altmer as they can on an Argonian, with Engulfing Flames and Alkosh uptimes and everything. The only difference is how easy it is. Since you're talking Khajiit, Khajiit already have a higher Stamina pool than Argonians, and their tri-stat sustain is extremely close to Argonians.

    There's no such thing for DPS: those are much more limited by stats than player skill; a player will always deal more damage on a Khajiit compared to Argonian, regardless of the player's skill.
    Ashryn wrote: »
    No Bosmer?
    No time. I'm already struggling to find time to do the parsing; takes 6 hours each session, not including setting things up. Sorry.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 16, 2019 7:40PM
    Best Argonian NA
    11 Argonian characters, 13 with Necromancers incoming

    >How the meta will shift with Wrathstone<

    >In-depth PTS 4.3.x Testing Data<

    >PTS 4.3.3 Findings and Analysis<
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    Thanks for your efforts, again!
  • Gaggin
    Gaggin
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    I didnt read any of your post, i already know you want more buffs for argonians.
  • Dracane
    Dracane
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    Dracane wrote: »
    Good read.
    It's quite an insightful post. It seems that all races, even those that are not even a dps race, are close together if you do not play Templar or Nightblade. Khajiit actually makes a bit more sense to me now. They are no longer the top dps race, but they get some sustain to justify it.

    Again, this test was done while being handheld by a support. Which of course is what we have been saying since days and days, so again no big surprise.

    All that's left to do, is to get rid of the Altmer stamina regen and give them something magicka/caster based, that has no direct or no impact on dps. Then everything seems good to go.

    No, Argonians aren't close at all, and Nords are still shafted on the Stamina DPS front. If you check the graph, Argonians are just waaaaay below the rest of the Magicka races at DPS, and that is not a good thing. The people that these changes affect the most are in the competitive scene for these things, and in there, a difference of even 1% will spawn a lot of elitism and controversy. I've had a friend removed from a group simply for playing a Khajiit instead of Redguard stamplar, and I myself have been removed from a Cloudrest progression group for playing an Argonian DPS even though I had cleared it many times on +3 before and have demonstrated my own skill and ability at DPSing.

    Being handheld by a support is actually most content in which you want good DPS in, and the people doing that content are the ones who are most affected by these changes. My way emulates the sustain within raiding scenarios without completely botching up the accuracy and consistency of my tests.

    Altmer don't need an additional buff to their Magicka stats at this point; they are way too powerful already. If they get a Magicka sustain passive, they must lose a bit of their damage just so the balance between races won't get completely out of whack.

    I didn't know 2,5k isn't close. Sorry.
    Follow her on Instagram: dracane_diamandis

    https://www.instagram.com/dracane_diamandis

    Auri-El is my lord !
  • Jolipinator
    Jolipinator
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    These are all Magicka Templar parses on the 6mil target skeleton, with Worm, Elemental Drain, and Orbs provided by an assistant.

    Which assistant is this and how many crowns does it cost?
    PS4 EU.
  • Dracane
    Dracane
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Good read.
    It's quite an insightful post. It seems that all races, even those that are not even a dps race, are close together if you do not play Templar or Nightblade. Khajiit actually makes a bit more sense to me now. They are no longer the top dps race, but they get some sustain to justify it.

    Again, this test was done while being handheld by a support. Which of course is what we have been saying since days and days, so again no big surprise.

    All that's left to do, is to get rid of the Altmer stamina regen and give them something magicka/caster based, that has no direct or no impact on dps. Then everything seems good to go.

    No, Argonians aren't close at all, and Nords are still shafted on the Stamina DPS front. If you check the graph, Argonians are just waaaaay below the rest of the Magicka races at DPS, and that is not a good thing. The people that these changes affect the most are in the competitive scene for these things, and in there, a difference of even 1% will spawn a lot of elitism and controversy. I've had a friend removed from a group simply for playing a Khajiit instead of Redguard stamplar, and I myself have been removed from a Cloudrest progression group for playing an Argonian DPS even though I had cleared it many times on +3 before and have demonstrated my own skill and ability at DPSing.

    Being handheld by a support is actually most content in which you want good DPS in, and the people doing that content are the ones who are most affected by these changes. My way emulates the sustain within raiding scenarios without completely botching up the accuracy and consistency of my tests.

    Altmer don't need an additional buff to their Magicka stats at this point; they are way too powerful already. If they get a Magicka sustain passive, they must lose a bit of their damage just so the balance between races won't get completely out of whack.

    I didn't know 2,5k isn't close. Sorry.

    In the eyes of min/maxers, even 1k is enough to completely write away a whole build, even a race

    I see. Min Maxers always act like some races are 8k dps apart from each other and I actually believed that until now. So seeing 2,5k difference seems rather reasonable to me.
    Follow her on Instagram: dracane_diamandis

    https://www.instagram.com/dracane_diamandis

    Auri-El is my lord !
  • Dracane
    Dracane
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    Dracane wrote: »
    Good read.
    It's quite an insightful post. It seems that all races, even those that are not even a dps race, are close together if you do not play Templar or Nightblade. Khajiit actually makes a bit more sense to me now. They are no longer the top dps race, but they get some sustain to justify it.

    Again, this test was done while being handheld by a support. Which of course is what we have been saying since days and days, so again no big surprise.

    All that's left to do, is to get rid of the Altmer stamina regen and give them something magicka/caster based, that has no direct or no impact on dps. Then everything seems good to go.

    No, Argonians aren't close at all, and Nords are still shafted on the Stamina DPS front. If you check the graph, Argonians are just waaaaay below the rest of the Magicka races at DPS, and that is not a good thing. The people that these changes affect the most are in the competitive scene for these things, and in there, a difference of even 1% will spawn a lot of elitism and controversy. I've had a friend removed from a group simply for playing a Khajiit instead of Redguard stamplar, and I myself have been removed from a Cloudrest progression group for playing an Argonian DPS even though I had cleared it many times on +3 before and have demonstrated my own skill and ability at DPSing.

    Being handheld by a support is actually most content in which you want good DPS in, and the people doing that content are the ones who are most affected by these changes. My way emulates the sustain within raiding scenarios without completely botching up the accuracy and consistency of my tests.

    Altmer don't need an additional buff to their Magicka stats at this point; they are way too powerful already. If they get a Magicka sustain passive, they must lose a bit of their damage just so the balance between races won't get completely out of whack.

    Did I with one word say, that Altmer should get magicka sustain ? Well lore wise, surely. But as I have said, I consider Khajiit balanced because they have sustain and damage. I said I want Altmer to get something magical, that does not affect dps and magicka regen surely will affect it.
    Follow her on Instagram: dracane_diamandis

    https://www.instagram.com/dracane_diamandis

    Auri-El is my lord !
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    Dracane wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Good read.
    It's quite an insightful post. It seems that all races, even those that are not even a dps race, are close together if you do not play Templar or Nightblade. Khajiit actually makes a bit more sense to me now. They are no longer the top dps race, but they get some sustain to justify it.

    Again, this test was done while being handheld by a support. Which of course is what we have been saying since days and days, so again no big surprise.

    All that's left to do, is to get rid of the Altmer stamina regen and give them something magicka/caster based, that has no direct or no impact on dps. Then everything seems good to go.

    No, Argonians aren't close at all, and Nords are still shafted on the Stamina DPS front. If you check the graph, Argonians are just waaaaay below the rest of the Magicka races at DPS, and that is not a good thing. The people that these changes affect the most are in the competitive scene for these things, and in there, a difference of even 1% will spawn a lot of elitism and controversy. I've had a friend removed from a group simply for playing a Khajiit instead of Redguard stamplar, and I myself have been removed from a Cloudrest progression group for playing an Argonian DPS even though I had cleared it many times on +3 before and have demonstrated my own skill and ability at DPSing.

    Being handheld by a support is actually most content in which you want good DPS in, and the people doing that content are the ones who are most affected by these changes. My way emulates the sustain within raiding scenarios without completely botching up the accuracy and consistency of my tests.

    Altmer don't need an additional buff to their Magicka stats at this point; they are way too powerful already. If they get a Magicka sustain passive, they must lose a bit of their damage just so the balance between races won't get completely out of whack.

    Did I with one word say, that Altmer should get magicka sustain ? Well lore wise, surely. But as I have said, I consider Khajiit balanced because they have sustain and damage. I said I want Altmer to get something magical, that does not affect dps and magicka regen surely will affect it.
    The thing with giving Altmer anything caster-based at this point is going to increase their DPS, whether directly or indirectly. After all, anything "caster-based" or "magical" is going to involve Magicka at some point, and any buff to any Magicka stat is going to give a boost to whatever they already do. You don't need to explicitly say it; I just know for a fact that if you give them Magicka-related passives (casters are Magicka), they're going to get buffed in terms of their Magicka ability.
    Dracane wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Good read.
    It's quite an insightful post. It seems that all races, even those that are not even a dps race, are close together if you do not play Templar or Nightblade. Khajiit actually makes a bit more sense to me now. They are no longer the top dps race, but they get some sustain to justify it.

    Again, this test was done while being handheld by a support. Which of course is what we have been saying since days and days, so again no big surprise.

    All that's left to do, is to get rid of the Altmer stamina regen and give them something magicka/caster based, that has no direct or no impact on dps. Then everything seems good to go.

    No, Argonians aren't close at all, and Nords are still shafted on the Stamina DPS front. If you check the graph, Argonians are just waaaaay below the rest of the Magicka races at DPS, and that is not a good thing. The people that these changes affect the most are in the competitive scene for these things, and in there, a difference of even 1% will spawn a lot of elitism and controversy. I've had a friend removed from a group simply for playing a Khajiit instead of Redguard stamplar, and I myself have been removed from a Cloudrest progression group for playing an Argonian DPS even though I had cleared it many times on +3 before and have demonstrated my own skill and ability at DPSing.

    Being handheld by a support is actually most content in which you want good DPS in, and the people doing that content are the ones who are most affected by these changes. My way emulates the sustain within raiding scenarios without completely botching up the accuracy and consistency of my tests.

    Altmer don't need an additional buff to their Magicka stats at this point; they are way too powerful already. If they get a Magicka sustain passive, they must lose a bit of their damage just so the balance between races won't get completely out of whack.

    I didn't know 2,5k isn't close. Sorry.

    In the eyes of min/maxers, even 1k is enough to completely write away a whole build, even a race

    I see. Min Maxers always act like some races are 8k dps apart from each other and I actually believed that until now. So seeing 2,5k difference seems rather reasonable to me.
    That is the issue here. In the end-game community, any small difference is going to be amplified due to the competitive nature of raiding. It's much like how in speedrunning, a difference in 1 second in a classic game is enough to put you in the Hall of Fame for all time (until the next guy beats you by 0.5 seconds). Fact of the matter is that in something as long as a veteran trial, every little difference adds up.

    This competitive nature bleeds into the casual community where people either accept it as fact and start bullying randoms in pug dungeons for running the "wrong race" or people like you just scratch your heads wondering what all the fuss is about. Ultimately, it shouldn't matter to you, but it is going to matter to the people who min/max in the first place.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 17, 2019 12:09AM
    Best Argonian NA
    11 Argonian characters, 13 with Necromancers incoming

    >How the meta will shift with Wrathstone<

    >In-depth PTS 4.3.x Testing Data<

    >PTS 4.3.3 Findings and Analysis<
  • zaria
    zaria
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    Gaggin wrote: »
    I didnt read any of your post, i already know you want more buffs for argonians.
    Now you can say at Argonians don't deserve it?

    Simply replacing healing given with spell power would help a lot.
    The only issue might be PvP balance. As I understand the potion passive let them keep pressure up longer.

    Nord passives is a bit in the same situation I think.
    Orc already get plenty of complains because of stats.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Castagere
    Castagere
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    Ashryn wrote: »
    No Bosmer?

    Or Redguard
  • luen79rwb17_ESO
    luen79rwb17_ESO
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    /kowtow to OP awesome thread!

    Very good analisys on the utility stats vs dps and sad to read the gap between dps focused vs standard racials is worse now. It was supposed to be the completely opposite way at least to me or what I understood was the main promise on that DEV thread posted on the combat forums a couple of months ago.

    Maybe it's a little too late with 4 patches in on PTS right now so probably the only way ZOS can fix that is to give more mag/stam to races currently tagged as "utility".

    In the long run I think it would be healthier for the game if they just completely rework racials to be an independant UI where every amount of X levels you can invest points on certain bonuses to specific stats for mag DPS, stam DPS, Tank or Heal where every race can pick the bonus they want according to their desired role and where the difference between each race would be the pool of bonuses available to pick.
    Edited by luen79rwb17_ESO on February 17, 2019 2:25AM
    PC/DC/NAserver

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  • jim_1
    jim_1
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    Thanks for posting this!

    I play a Magicka Templar Altmer, mainly for PVE solo, and I dps for trials whenever my guild is doing them on normal. I'm not seeing anything for me to worry about with the changes that ZOS is proposing for the next release. However, I understand that folks who min/max have a different opinion.
    PS4 / NA
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
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    Your description seems to imply that you created a new character for each race. Why not just keep one character and race change?

    So as to keep all the skill points, gear, setup, etc. You only need to re-spend the race skill points.
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    Templar's are evil..
  • Faulgor
    Faulgor
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    Dracane wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Good read.
    It's quite an insightful post. It seems that all races, even those that are not even a dps race, are close together if you do not play Templar or Nightblade. Khajiit actually makes a bit more sense to me now. They are no longer the top dps race, but they get some sustain to justify it.

    Again, this test was done while being handheld by a support. Which of course is what we have been saying since days and days, so again no big surprise.

    All that's left to do, is to get rid of the Altmer stamina regen and give them something magicka/caster based, that has no direct or no impact on dps. Then everything seems good to go.

    No, Argonians aren't close at all, and Nords are still shafted on the Stamina DPS front. If you check the graph, Argonians are just waaaaay below the rest of the Magicka races at DPS, and that is not a good thing. The people that these changes affect the most are in the competitive scene for these things, and in there, a difference of even 1% will spawn a lot of elitism and controversy. I've had a friend removed from a group simply for playing a Khajiit instead of Redguard stamplar, and I myself have been removed from a Cloudrest progression group for playing an Argonian DPS even though I had cleared it many times on +3 before and have demonstrated my own skill and ability at DPSing.

    Being handheld by a support is actually most content in which you want good DPS in, and the people doing that content are the ones who are most affected by these changes. My way emulates the sustain within raiding scenarios without completely botching up the accuracy and consistency of my tests.

    Altmer don't need an additional buff to their Magicka stats at this point; they are way too powerful already. If they get a Magicka sustain passive, they must lose a bit of their damage just so the balance between races won't get completely out of whack.

    Did I with one word say, that Altmer should get magicka sustain ? Well lore wise, surely. But as I have said, I consider Khajiit balanced because they have sustain and damage. I said I want Altmer to get something magical, that does not affect dps and magicka regen surely will affect it.
    The thing with giving Altmer anything caster-based at this point is going to increase their DPS, whether directly or indirectly. After all, anything "caster-based" or "magical" is going to involve Magicka at some point, and any buff to any Magicka stat is going to give a boost to whatever they already do. You don't need to explicitly say it; I just know for a fact that if you give them Magicka-related passives (casters are Magicka), they're going to get buffed in terms of their Magicka ability.

    I don't think that's true. Not everything magicka-related inevitably translates to an increase in DPS.
    A higher chance to proc status effects, as often suggested, wouldn't have any impact in raid situations. Defensive tools like higher shield strength don't effect DPS either, unless you want to make the argument that marginally less shield casts per minute technically result in slightly more sustain. Even some outright sustain tools, e.g. recovering magicka while sprinting like the Prisoner's set (which I think would be a cool nod to their lore of "shorter walking strides"), don't effect DPS in parses at all.
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    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    Faulgor wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Good read.
    It's quite an insightful post. It seems that all races, even those that are not even a dps race, are close together if you do not play Templar or Nightblade. Khajiit actually makes a bit more sense to me now. They are no longer the top dps race, but they get some sustain to justify it.

    Again, this test was done while being handheld by a support. Which of course is what we have been saying since days and days, so again no big surprise.

    All that's left to do, is to get rid of the Altmer stamina regen and give them something magicka/caster based, that has no direct or no impact on dps. Then everything seems good to go.

    No, Argonians aren't close at all, and Nords are still shafted on the Stamina DPS front. If you check the graph, Argonians are just waaaaay below the rest of the Magicka races at DPS, and that is not a good thing. The people that these changes affect the most are in the competitive scene for these things, and in there, a difference of even 1% will spawn a lot of elitism and controversy. I've had a friend removed from a group simply for playing a Khajiit instead of Redguard stamplar, and I myself have been removed from a Cloudrest progression group for playing an Argonian DPS even though I had cleared it many times on +3 before and have demonstrated my own skill and ability at DPSing.

    Being handheld by a support is actually most content in which you want good DPS in, and the people doing that content are the ones who are most affected by these changes. My way emulates the sustain within raiding scenarios without completely botching up the accuracy and consistency of my tests.

    Altmer don't need an additional buff to their Magicka stats at this point; they are way too powerful already. If they get a Magicka sustain passive, they must lose a bit of their damage just so the balance between races won't get completely out of whack.

    Did I with one word say, that Altmer should get magicka sustain ? Well lore wise, surely. But as I have said, I consider Khajiit balanced because they have sustain and damage. I said I want Altmer to get something magical, that does not affect dps and magicka regen surely will affect it.
    The thing with giving Altmer anything caster-based at this point is going to increase their DPS, whether directly or indirectly. After all, anything "caster-based" or "magical" is going to involve Magicka at some point, and any buff to any Magicka stat is going to give a boost to whatever they already do. You don't need to explicitly say it; I just know for a fact that if you give them Magicka-related passives (casters are Magicka), they're going to get buffed in terms of their Magicka ability.

    I don't think that's true. Not everything magicka-related inevitably translates to an increase in DPS.
    A higher chance to proc status effects, as often suggested, wouldn't have any impact in raid situations. Defensive tools like higher shield strength don't effect DPS either, unless you want to make the argument that marginally less shield casts per minute technically result in slightly more sustain. Even some outright sustain tools, e.g. recovering magicka while sprinting like the Prisoner's set (which I think would be a cool nod to their lore of "shorter walking strides"), don't effect DPS in parses at all.
    Status effects include Concussion and therefore Minor Vulnerability, which boosts damage dealt to a target by 8%, and it procs off of any Shock damage (except Shock staff Light and Heavy Attacks), including the main spammable that everyone uses which is Elemental Weapon, so that increases DPS and viability in raids. Burning is also a status effect that is straight up damage, proccing off of any Flame damage.

    I wouldn't call higher shield strength a Magicka-based passive; it's more utility, and works well for Magicka DPS, healers, and tanks. I like that idea, but again, they have too much raw DPS to warrant having any more buffs, utility or sustain-wise.

    Recovering Magicka while sprinting, while interesting, ultimately means that Altmer would have more sustain in fights where movement is involved, such as in vCR and on the Twins in vMoL where running around is the norm; again, it would still affect their DPS.

    Your description seems to imply that you created a new character for each race. Why not just keep one character and race change?

    So as to keep all the skill points, gear, setup, etc. You only need to re-spend the race skill points.
    I switch between them to compare stats and do calculations, and do re-tests if I find that I have mis-typed some numbers. It's just a precaution, and creating a character doesn't really take long.

    Ultimately it just takes slightly more time than race-changing, and I have the option of going back and forth between them easily.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 17, 2019 1:05PM
    Best Argonian NA
    11 Argonian characters, 13 with Necromancers incoming

    >How the meta will shift with Wrathstone<

    >In-depth PTS 4.3.x Testing Data<

    >PTS 4.3.3 Findings and Analysis<
  • WuffyCerulei
    WuffyCerulei
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    Sorry Snatchet, but I want my crit back!!
    Also dammit.
    I will kick everyone's butt, even my own.

    PC NA
    CP 1100+
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  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    Sorry Snatchet, but I want my crit back!!
    Also dammit.
    dammit wuffy
    no kitties allowed
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 17, 2019 6:18PM
    Best Argonian NA
    11 Argonian characters, 13 with Necromancers incoming

    >How the meta will shift with Wrathstone<

    >In-depth PTS 4.3.x Testing Data<

    >PTS 4.3.3 Findings and Analysis<
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    xaraan wrote: »
    Man, watching these racial changes as an Argonian has been rough.

    Feels like everyone else is like "your passives are good enough that you should shut up" even though they aren't good enough be compete with anything outside of the one potion passive being ok for tanking and good for pvp.

    Pretty much most friends I have with Argonians are changing to either Breton healers or Nord/Imperial tanks. And tbh, if we got to pick our racials and race separately, I wouldn't be choosing Argonian racials for any of my 15 characters.

    The worst part is: As we've seen from Nord passives for years being bad, Invigorating being useless (after replacing another useless trait), Jewelry Writs being useless for going on a year this summer, etc. Once they release whatever the final form for this patch on live, then the stuff that is unbalanced will stay that way for months and years as ZoS does nothing.

    Honestly, yeah, it does look rather bleak. With every PTS cycle that comes and goes, any and all of my hopes just get dashed. I can assure you, I have never been excited by any of the changes going from PTS to Live.

    One more PTS cycle to go.
    Best Argonian NA
    11 Argonian characters, 13 with Necromancers incoming

    >How the meta will shift with Wrathstone<

    >In-depth PTS 4.3.x Testing Data<

    >PTS 4.3.3 Findings and Analysis<
  • Mudcrabber
    Mudcrabber
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    I feel like argonians are balanced on the assumption that we're all playing pvp tanks with 3x infused potion jewelry. Like one niche build that hardly anyone uses makes them the best race.

    The reason mine's lasted 3 years is cosmetic. I've avoided most of the veteran content. Watching it fall further behind while all the other races narrow their gaps is a bit much.

    But we are getting lots of race tokens. And we'll see what tomorrow's update brings. I'll have a lot of fun respeccing to do either way.
  • commdt
    commdt
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    Any link to similar test with stam DD?
    Rawr
  • cazlonb16_ESO
    cazlonb16_ESO
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    No, Argonians are still shafted. Khajiiti are still the superior furries.

    Argonians are scaly, not furry.
    Mudcrabber wrote: »
    I feel like argonians are balanced on the assumption that we're all playing pvp tanks with 3x infused potion jewelry.

    They clearly are and I wrote as much in the PTS forum thread after the initial patch. Little has changed since then and having gone through plenty of these cycles, I expect no more improvements.

    More generally speaking, I feel that ZOS wasted an opportunity with these races changes. They just shuffled the races around a little, now different ones are at the top or left in the dust. And we'll be stuck with it for years again.
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