Racial Rebalance v4.3.X

mxxo · February 2019

Bosmer with Magicka would be a awesome!

templesus · February 2019

I like everything but Breton. 1k magicka return vs the 500 on redguard? Nah, no dice. That can easily be procced by using things like ritual of retribution on Magplar DPS to proc. Or swallow soul on magblade, etc.

twing1_ · February 2019

templesus wrote: »

I like everything but Breton. 1k magicka return vs the 500 on redguard? Nah, no dice. That can easily be procced by using things like ritual of retribution on Magplar DPS to proc. Or swallow soul on magblade, etc.

@templesus

The idea I had in mind was that it would be procced on the cast of a healing ability, and not while actively healing allies. I see how the current wording doesn't reflect that notion and will update it.

This way it isn't constantly proccing on Breton damage dealers. In order to constantly proc it, it would then require Bretons to recast a healing ability every 5 seconds, which just doesn't happen on a damage dealer role.

I believe swallow soul does not technically count as a healing ability, because it heals off of the damage it deals instead of directly and immediately healing a target. If it is the other way around, I see how this could be problematic, however.

Good insight. Editing the wording of the ability now.

Edit: this ability has once again been updated on account of later comments

templesus · February 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I like everything but Breton. 1k magicka return vs the 500 on redguard? Nah, no dice. That can easily be procced by using things like ritual of retribution on Magplar DPS to proc. Or swallow soul on magblade, etc.

@templesus

The idea I had in mind was that it would be procced on the cast of a healing ability, and not while actively healing allies. I see how the current wording doesn't reflect that notion and will update it.

This way it isn't constantly proccing on Breton damage dealers. In order to constantly proc it, it would then require Bretons to recast a healing ability every 5 seconds, which just doesn't happen on a damage dealer role.

I believe swallow soul does not technically count as a healing ability, because it heals off of the damage it deals instead of directly and immediately healing a target. If it is the other way around, I see how this could be problematic, however.

Good insight. Editing the wording of the ability now.

Why not just make it a mirror image of redguard so that way DPS can still use it? I don’t understand why it has to be a healer only race, that’s illogical imo. Magicka DPS specs needs to be given a sustain race if it’s to be balanced, making that sustain proc off a healing ability doesn’t do that. Just cut it in half and make it proc on direct damage, like redguard.

twing1_ · February 2019

templesus wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I like everything but Breton. 1k magicka return vs the 500 on redguard? Nah, no dice. That can easily be procced by using things like ritual of retribution on Magplar DPS to proc. Or swallow soul on magblade, etc.

@templesus

The idea I had in mind was that it would be procced on the cast of a healing ability, and not while actively healing allies. I see how the current wording doesn't reflect that notion and will update it.

This way it isn't constantly proccing on Breton damage dealers. In order to constantly proc it, it would then require Bretons to recast a healing ability every 5 seconds, which just doesn't happen on a damage dealer role.

I believe swallow soul does not technically count as a healing ability, because it heals off of the damage it deals instead of directly and immediately healing a target. If it is the other way around, I see how this could be problematic, however.

Good insight. Editing the wording of the ability now.

Why not just make it a mirror image of redguard so that way DPS can still use it? I don’t understand why it has to be a healer only race, that’s illogical imo. Magicka DPS sorcs needs to be given a sustain race if it’s to be balanced, making that sustain proc off a healing ability doesn’t do that. Just cut it in half and make it proc on direct damage, like redguard.

My reasoning is because on the current PTS, Bretons are granted a similar bonus in the form of 100 magicka recovery, and are overperforming. They are out-parsing even the no sustain and pure damage races (Altmer and dunmer), whereas redguards are not. Imo, this should not be happening. There should be a tradeoff between damage potential and ease of use (greater resource sustain), and currently with Breton this is not happening.

I suspect this has something to do with the recast time on magicka abilities vs stamina abilities. Most magicka rotations last around ~8 seconds (because of the duration of elemental blockade) while most stamina rotations last around ~10-12 seconds (because of the duration of endless hail and caltrops). This leads to Bretons recasting their abilities more often than redguards, and consequently they use more magicka than redguards use stamina. This in turn allows Bretons to get more use out of their magicka cost reduction than redguards stamina cost reduction. Their magicka cost reduction is actually a stronger magicka sustain tool than the redguard's stamina cost reduction, and this is being reflected in their DPS parses.

Admittedly, there are a lot of different variables at play (redguards cost reduction currently only affecting weapon abilities for starters) and I could very well be wrong. But this is extremely difficult to determine without real testing, so I'm more or less just spit balling. It could very well turn out that the better balance is granting them a similar magicka sustain tool to the redguards stamina sustain tool and instead converting their magicka cost reduction to either only weapon ability cost reduction or class ability cost reduction.

Ideally, I would keep the overall magicka ability cost reduction as this would reduce the variance between different classes (as some classes use more weapon/class abilities than others). So I'm starting off by trying to balance the Bretons other sustain tool instead. Keeping their overall magicka cost reduction would also fit nicely in line with the imperials new cost reduction tool as well.

Theoretically, if these changes were adopted (which, sadly, they will not be), various experiments could be deducted to find the happy balance, and the necessary changes could be made.

But for now, I'm trying to do the best I can with what limited info I can obtain.

Vapirko · February 2019

They’re really not gonna go through and redo so much at this last week of PTS. Perhaps we will see a bit more adjustment to a couple races like argonian or bosmer but I really doubt much will be done.

Strider__Roshin · February 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

They’re really not gonna go through and redo so much at this last week of PTS. Perhaps we will see a bit more adjustment to a couple races like argonian or bosmer but I really doubt much will be done.

Then I guess Nords will be then more of a dead race than last update.

Vapirko · February 2019

Daus wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

They’re really not gonna go through and redo so much at this last week of PTS. Perhaps we will see a bit more adjustment to a couple races like argonian or bosmer but I really doubt much will be done.

Then I guess Nords will be then more of a dead race than last update.

For straight DPS in a min max sort of way? Yeah maybe. They’ll still be great for tanks and a variety of PvP builds. As I’ve mentioned before someone’s already put out a 50k+ resist Nord build wit 4K wpn damage and good looking stats. You still playing medium armor stambalde w/out cloak?

twing1_ · February 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

They’re really not gonna go through and redo so much at this last week of PTS. Perhaps we will see a bit more adjustment to a couple races like argonian or bosmer but I really doubt much will be done.

Yeah, well aware. This whole thing was mainly for fun. I'll just copy paste my disclaimer again:

twing1_ wrote: »

DISCLAIMER: The following suggestions are in no way, shape, or form being implemented into the game in any version of reality. The following suggestions are solely the changes that I, as an individual with subjective preferences and more than probably incorrect views of balance, would like to see implemented into the game. By continuing to read this thread, you are acknowledging that both parties, the reader and the poster, are entitled to their own opinions, but only mine will be represented by this thread. I'm Freddy Krueger. You are in my nightmare. You're just along for the ride. But that's not to say that you can't achieve dream warrior status. Back up your suggestions/comments/criticisms/critiques with critical analysis and careful consideration in a calm, collected, and friendly way, and you may or may not see some of your ideas implemented into the original post.

ZarkingFrued · February 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

DISCLAIMER: The following suggestions are in no way, shape, or form being implemented into the game in any version of reality. The following suggestions are solely the changes that I, as an individual with subjective preferences and more than probably incorrect views of balance, would like to see implemented into the game. By continuing to read this thread, you are acknowledging that both parties, the reader and the poster, are entitled to their own opinions, but only mine will be represented by this thread. I'm Freddy Krueger. You are in my nightmare. You're just along for the ride. But that's not to say that you can't achieve dream warrior status. Back up your suggestions/comments/criticisms/critiques with critical analysis and careful consideration in a calm, collected, and friendly way, and you may or may not see some of your ideas implemented into the original post.

Now then. This post has to do with rebalancing all of the racial passives across all of the different races, as I believe ZOS way of doing it has so far been inherently wrong. This is because ZOS doesn't stick to certain unbreakable guidelines when designing racial passives. Each race seems to be doing its own thing. There's no set of rules that each and every race is being forced to follow, other than the "roughly 6.5 item set piece bonuses", whatever that means. It would logically follow then that the races are not balanced. The first step to achieving real balance, is by establishing guidelines. Here are mine:

GUIDELINES
1. Every race will be allotted 3000 maximum resources to play around with, no more and no less. These can be distributed in any which way between Magicka, Stamina, and Health, so long as the total sum of these bonuses neither exceeds nor falls below the 3000 mark. For example, a race can have 1000 max stam, 1000 max mag, and 1000 max health while another can have 3000 max stam but no health and magicka. A race cannot have 3000 max stam and 1000 health, as the sum of these exceeds 3000 maximum resources. Nor can a race have 500 max stam, 500 max health, and 500 max magicka, as the total sum of these falls below 3000 maximum resources. Does this sound nice and fair to everyone? No? Well too bad.
2. Every race will have a small defensive bonus of relatively equal value. In most cases, this will be a consistent numeric value of bonus resistance to a particular type of damage.
3. Every race will have a sustain tool for at least one of their resources. The effectiveness and ease of use of this sustain tool will be dictated by the offensive power of the race through an inverse relationship. That is to say that, generally speaking, the more offensive power a race has, the less access it has to main resource sustain. And vice versa: the lower the offensive power of a race, the more access it has to primary stat sustain.
4. Every race will be granted the equivalent of two 2-4 piece item set bonuses. In certain situations, because endgame builds will utilize only one or the other, additional set bonuses will be granted strictly as magicka or stamina counterparts to the existing 2 set bonuses. But that is the only exception. For the most part, these bonuses are copy pasted directly from current 2-4 piece set bonuses already found in the game. There are a few exceptions, where liberties were taken. My apologies. But again, I'm Freddy Krueger. This is my dream.
5. Last and certainly not least, every race will more or less reflect traditional TES lore. Because of (my perceived notion of) balance, not all elements of the lore can be reflected. But the general feel of each race's lore must be preserved.

My logic behind these guidelines is that by giving every race equal amounts of max resources, independent of the questionably quantifiable "set bonuses", it leaves less room for variance between the races. Further restricting classes to having similar defensive bonuses (numeric value-wise) and requiring them to have a sustain tool further reduces the room for negotiation on these "set bonuses" by dropping the overall number from ~6.5 to exactly 2. Furthermore, copy pasting these bonuses directly from preexisting item sets wherever applicable maintains the balance between races by feeding off of the balance currently found in the game.

It is also important to note that my proposed changes are based off of the most recent analysis of DPS parses done by @susmitds and the Hell Runners Guild, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

Later in this thread, I provide a detailed analysis of this study and use its findings to justify the changes I make to the races.

Big shout out and special thanks to those brave and patient souls, willing to take the time for all those DPS parses in the name of science. This wouldn't be possible without you. Well conducted, guys.

Well then. Lets get into it.

ALTMER - I like where this one sits in the current dps parsing, competing for the top spot. I don't like their off-stat sustain, as it doesn't seem to fit the lore, but like the idea of having a bit of off-stat utility for PvP balancing

Maximum resources: 2000 magicka 1000 stamina (1000 bonus stamina for utility. Mainly a PvP balance addition, to help bridge the gap between them and the dunmer in that department. also helps make up for the loss of spell recharge)

Defensive bonus: 5% damage resistance while casting (unchanged - Altmer, lore wise, have very weak defenses. This is reflected by this admittedly weak defensive passive)

Sustain tool: Fully charged heavy attacks restore an additional 20% of the resources they normally would. (This is to keep Altmer damage dealers' sustain low as they will primarily be weaving light attacks, while also providing a sustain tool for altmer healers to take advantage of to compete with Breton healers. This also synergizes quite nicely with their defensive bonus, as heavy attacks are considered channeled/cast time abilities)

Set bonuses: (unchanged)
1. 129 spell damage
2. 129 spell damage

ARGONIAN - In PTS v4.3.3, I think Argonians are falling a bit behind in DPS. I like their emphasis in survivability though. Could use some help on the stamina side for lore.

Maximum resources: 1000 magicka 1000 health 1000 stamina (granting the extra 1000 to stamina to more closely resemble the bonuses granted to them in previous games)

Defensive bonus: 2310 disease resistance. Immunity to diseased status effect. (unchanged)

Sustain tool: When you drink a potion, you restore 4000 magicka, health, and stamina (unchanged)

Set bonuses:
1. 129 spell/weapon damage (this replaces their current 6% healing done, as spell damage also directly increases the power of healing spells. it also helps them out in the DPS race, where they are lagging behind a bit)
2. 4% healing received (this reinforces the idea of Argonian survivability in any role, not just as healers)

BOSMER - all sorts of problems with their roll dodge mechanic, ranging from a lore perspective to the bonus being tied to a very expensive stamina cost. Also wanted to open them up to more magicka roles. I like where they are currently sitting in dps parses, however. Therefore, I've kept their stats very similar to how they are in 4.3.3. One notable difference is the division of their sustain: half of it now comes from a new sustain tool that can be specced for magicka recovery. Penetration bonus helps them keep up with other races that I've granted maximum primary resources to that were previously parsing on similar levels as the bosmer)

Maximum resources: 2000 stamina 1000 magicka (max mag to boost efficiency in magicka roles)

Defensive bonus: 2310 poison resistance. Immunity to poisoned status effect (unchanged)

Sustain tool: While the effects of one of your alchemical potions or weapon poisons are active, restore 400 magicka or stamina, whichever is higher, every 4 seconds. (emphasizes their proficiency in alchemy while also opening the door to magicka bosmer)

Set bonuses:
1. 129 stamina recovery (having a hard 129 stamina recovery emphasizes their natural agility, even when specced for magicka)
2. 1487 physical/spell penetration (Kra'gh one piece bonus, but again opening the door for magicka bosmer)

BRETON - parsing a little too high in my opinion, on account of their godly sustain. Brought that down considerably, giving them slightly more raw power instead.

Maximum resources: 3000 magicka (magic boost to compensate for loss of sustain)

Defensive bonus: 2310 spell resistance. Status effects have a 10% lower chance of being applied to you. (focus on status effect avoidance, rather than conditionally doubling the bonus. Keeps it more in line with other race's defensive bonuses)

Sustain tool: When you cast a healing ability, restore 1000 magicka. This can occur once every 5 seconds. (reducing their sustain in damage dealer roles while also retaining their superior sustain compared to altmers in healer roles)

Set bonuses: (relatively unchanged)
1. Reduces the cost of magicka abilities by 3% (this one is hard to quantify, as there are currently no set bonuses that provide this. I wanted to keep the cost reduction though, as it has become a staple of the breton identity. came up with the 3% figure by balancing the current breton reduction bonus, the armor of the seducer 5 pc bonus, and the imperials new cost reduction ability)
2. Reduces the cost of magicka abilities by 3%

ORC - I like where they currently are in v4.3.3 Good balance of damage and hardiness. Supports the lore.

Maximum resources: 2000 stamina 1000 health (unchanged)

Defensive bonus: 2310 Shock resistance. Immunity to concussed status effect. (not a very lore-based change. I just imagine it would be particularly difficult to give an orc a concussion. It also makes me happy to use bonus resistances to each of the elemental damage types in my racial rebalance. Freddy Krueger strikes.)

Sustain tool: Restore 600 health when you deal damage with a weapon ability, 4 second cooldown (unchanged)

Set bonuses: (unchanged)
1. 129 weapon damage
2. 129 weapon damage

DUNMER - I like where they are at in current parses for the most part. Wanted to emphasize the duality of their nature as both skilled warriors and casters in comparison to the altmer, according to lore. Steered hard into utilization of both stat pools (for added combat utility for roll dodges, break frees,etc on the magicka side of things and more magicka utility for crowd control, self buffs/heals, nb cloaks, etc on the stamina side of things).

Maximum resources: 1500 stamina 1500 magicka (retaining their equal split in offensive capabilities, while adhering to the 3000 max resource limit)

Defensive bonus: 2310 resistance to fire. Immunity to burned effect (unchanged)

Sustain tool: Dealing direct damage restores 645 magicka or stamina, whichever maximum is lower. 6 second cooldown (Altmer spell recharge. Seemed a lot more fitting on a hybrid race)

Set bonuses: (unchanged)
1. 129 spell/weapon damage
2. 129 spell/weapon damage

IMPERIAL - i like where they are going in v4.3.3. They are being established as as the swiss army knife race. They are well suited for any role. Could still use some help in the DPS race, both as magicka DD and as a stamina DD

Maximum resources: 750 magicka 1500 health, 750 stamina (spreading these out among all three resources to play into the jack of all trades identity. Damage concerns addressed in set bonuses)

Defensive bonus: 1155 spell resistance 1155 physical resistance. Increases amount of damage you can block by 5% (seems fitting that the jack of all trades, master of none should receive equal bonuses to all damage, at the cost of potency. Added block damage in place of a status effect immunity)

Sustain tool: When you deal direct damage, restore 333 magicka, health, and stamina. 5 second cool down. (unchanged)

Set bonuses:
1. Reduces magicka/stamina cost of your abilities by 3% (again hard to quantify, but seems like 3% could conceivably be a 2-4 piece set bonus, given the 5th piece bonus of the armor of the seducer set is 8% reduction)
2. 129 weapon/spell damage

KHAJIT - I think they are at a pretty good place in terms of balancing magic cats against stamina cats. They could both use a slight boost to keep them more competitive with the other races, however.

Maximum resources: 1250 magicka 500 health 1250 stamina (boosting offensive capabilities while staying true to 3000 max resource limit)

Defensive bonus: Decreases the radius enemies can detect you while sneaking by 3m (unchanged)

Sustain tool: 100 magicka recovery, 100 health recovery, 100 stamina recovery (slight boost to stat recovery to keep them competitive with other races in the DPS race)

Set bonuses: (unchanged)
1. +5% critical damage (another hard one to quantify as set bonuses, but I feel the current 10% increase to critical damage is quite balanced)
2. +5% critical damage

NORD - I think there is a reason why ZOS hasn't touched them since the initial rework. I really like where they currently are. Could use a bump in the DPS race to keep up with other races in that department

Maximum resources: 1000 health 2000 stamina (bonus to stamina to keep them competitive as DPS)

Defensive bonus: 2310 cold resistance. Immunity to chilled status effect. (unchanged)

Sustain tool: When you take OR deal damage, generate 5 ultimate. 10 second cooldown. (modified to support nords in roles other than tank. Otherwise unchanged)

Set bonuses:
1. 2975 physical/spell resistance (only changed the values to accommodate the 2 set bonus limit established in the guidelines)
2. 129 weapon damage (to help them keep up in the DPS race, as they are currently falling behind)

REDGUARD - overall in a good spot. Could use a slight boost to help close the gap between orc/dunmer a bit.

Maximum resources: 3000 stamina (bump to stamina to boost their offensive capabilities slightly)

Defensive bonus: 2310 physical resistance. Reduces effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15% (lore related bonus. Emphasizes their expertise in all things related to physical combat, while maintaining their lack of magical prowess, both defensively and offensively. Snare reduction unchanged)

Sustain tool: Dealing direct damage restores 475 stamina. 5 second cool down. (Nerfed to balance out the buff to their stamina cost reduction abilities)

Set bonuses:
1. Reduces the stamina cost of abilities by 3% (again, hard to quantify. But chose to reduce stamina cost of all abilities to mirror breton, and also stick to my established quantification of cost reduction in terms of set bonuses)
2. Reduces the stamina cost of abilities by 3%

You will notice most of the races remain relatively unchanged from what they currently are on 4.3.3, other than a slight bump in offensive power to the races that are currently under-performing. This is quite intended. My goal in this hypothetical and very fictional racial rebalance is to provide better balance to the races by establishing a set of standardized rules that racial passives must follow, while also maintaining each race's unique feel and viability for the roles they currently are associated with. I also want to help bridge the gap between some of the races in the latest DPS parses, while more or less maintaining the structure of the current hierarchy.

The following is my commentary on the latest DPS parsing analysis (again found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1).

STAMINA RACES
On the stamina side of things, Orc and Dunmer are consistently at the top of the DPS charts in controlled testing. This makes sense, as they offer the highest raw damage potential and the least amount of main-stat sustain, meaning they thrive in very controlled environments where sustain is a non-issue (ex/ dummy parses and very well organized and well practiced trial groups). Although they offer the highest amount of damage potential, they are also accompanied by the greatest amount of playing difficulty (on account of their limited sustain). This is their tradeoff, as to achieve their maximum potential the greatest amount of coordination in trials groups is required. These characteristics make up the first tier of DPS races, as there is a considerable gap between these top two races and the next best grouping of races.

Following the Orc and Dunmer are the 2nd tier DPS races: Khajit, Redguard, Bosmer, and Imperial. These races are characterized by having lower theoretical damage potential, but higher ease of play through increased sustain. This means that they do not rely on optimal scenarios (ex/ dummy parses and well practiced trials groups) to achieve their maximum potential. This benefits them in scenarios like solo play and PvP, where sustain could be an issue. As such, they are characterized as being more versatile, but less optimized for min/maxed builds.

The third tier of stamina DPS races is made up of races that possess inferior bonuses to stamina statistics, like Nord and the races typically considered as magicka users.

MAGICKA RACES
Similar to the stamina races, the magicka DPS parses can also be divided into three distinct tiers with similar characterizations (tier 1 = high damage potential + low sustain, tier 2 = magicka bonuses + sufficient sustain, tier 3= unoptimized). At the head of the pack in tier 1 of the magicka races are Altmer and Dunmer. Again, no surprises here as they have the highest theoretical max damage potential but lowest sustain. Uncharacteristically, however, Breton also joins them in this tier. I feel this is rather unintended, however, because Bretons possess the highest amount of sustain and therefore the greatest ease of use. Therefore, it seems that Breton should be bumped down into the second tier of magicka races, but this is not being reflected in the latest parses. We are going to leave them as an outlier for now.

Below Altmer and Dunmer, in the 2nd tier of magicka DPS races, are Khajit followed by Argonian. Again, these races are characterized by having better sustain, but lower max damage potential. That equates to greater ease of use, but less min/maxed damage potential.

The third tier of magicka DPS races is characterized by races unoptimized for magicka damage dealing roles.

THE PROBLEM AREAS
For the most part, ZOS has done an admittedly really good job balancing these races. The one that stands out, however, is Breton. Breton possesses characteristics most closely related to the 2nd tier DPS races: high sustain, but lower max potential damage in comparison to the tier 1 races. Because of their sustain, Bretons are incredibly easy to manage, yet the latest testing shows that they are also competing for the top magicka DPS parsing. This to me indicates that Breton are over performing. I will try to address this in my rebalance.

Outside of this, everything else seems okay. There is a clear grouping at the top of the DPS charts for both stamina and magicka, followed by another clear cluster of races a bit lower. The gap between these two tiers, however, could always benefit by being smaller. Therefore I will also try to increase the damage potential of the 2nd tier races in my rebalance as well.

HOW THE REBALANCE AFFECTS EVERYTHING
In my rebalance, I left the damage potential and main-stat sustain of the Tier 1 DPS races relatively untouched (except for Breton, which in my opinion should drop down to tier 2 on account of their ease of use). This is quite intentional, as I already like where they are currently in DPS parsing. The exception to this is the Dunmer, that have suffered a max resource reduction to 1500 max stam and magicka because of the confines of my guidelines (no race will have more than 3000 max resources). In compensation, I've granted them access to off-stat utility. This change will admittedly lower their DPS parses, but still keep them clearly above the 2nd Tier DPS races. Furthermore, they will gain off-stat sustain in the tradeoff, emphasizing their hybrid nature in TES lore. This gives dunmer the slight disadvantage in dps parses when compare to "pure" races of similar characteristics (Altmer and orc) as a tradeoff for their hybrid viability.

I've attempted to drop Bretons down to the Tier 2 DPS races by removing a large part of their sustain (100 magicka recovery), while boosting their maximum magicka by 1000. This should put them more in line with their stamina counterparts, Redguard and Bosmer, and seat them comfortably toward the top of the 2nd tier DPS races. I've given them access to main-stat restore through the use of healing abilities so that they may retain their incredible sustain in the healing role and further differentiate them from the Altmer.

To all the 2nd tier DPS races, I've provided either a max resource or damage boost. This should result in a slight shift up in DPS parsing charts for the entire 2nd tier of races, and help to bridge the gap between the two tiers.

I've also experimented with giving Bosmer magicka viability (although it is still clearly better optimized for stamina), because I feel the roll dodge mechanic needed a complete overhaul. Plus, the more diversity the better, right?

For reference, here is an outline of the current DPS hierarchy:

MAGICKA
Tier 1
Altmer/dunmer/breton

Then, about 1k dps lower:

Tier 2
Khajit
Argonian

Tier 3
Unoptimized

STAMINA
Tier 1
Orc/dunmer

Then, about 1k dps lower:

Tier 2
Redguard
Khajit/bosmer/imperial
Nord (presumably)

Tier 3
Unoptimized

Here is what I hope to accomplish with the rebalance:

MAGICKA
Tier 1
Altmer
Dunmer

Then, less than 1k dps lower:

Tier 2
Breton/khajit
Imperial/argonian/bosmer

Tier 3
Unoptimized

STAMINA
Tier 1
Orc
Dunmer

Then, less than 1k dps lower:

Tier 2
Redguard/khajit/bosmer/nord
Imperial/argonian

Tier 3
Unoptimized

Anyway. I was bored and daydreaming, so go nuts.

P.S. A lot of these suggestions are not of my own creation, as I have picked quite a few of them up from reading suggestions in other threads. I apologize for not giving credit where credit is due, but I do not remember where I picked a lot of them up. If anything I've used is one of your ideas, please let me know and I'll happily give you the credit you deserve.

Whoa someone has to much time on their hands lol. Well thought out though.

heaven13 · February 2019

I feel a bit like your bias against Bretons shows a bit. From looking over the sustain suggestions, they are the only ones in your list that will ONLY get sustain from a very specific source and you've since updated (and explained) that it has to be used actively on a healer to benefit. While I understand your concern that they're over-performing, I feel there could be other solutions that don't lock them into one role just so they can benefit from their passives. That exact issue is part of the problem with some of the current racial changes ZoS has made.

twing1_ · February 2019

heaven13 wrote: »

I feel a bit like your bias against Bretons shows a bit. From looking over the sustain suggestions, they are the only ones in your list that will ONLY get sustain from a very specific source and you've since updated (and explained) that it has to be used actively on a healer to benefit. While I understand your concern that they're over-performing, I feel there could be other solutions that don't lock them into one role just so they can benefit from their passives. That exact issue is part of the problem with some of the current racial changes ZoS has made.

@heaven13

Hmm this is a very good point. They are the odd man out in that regard. And it becomes even stronger when you consider @templesus earlier comment about their similarities to redguard in all departments except the sustain tool.

What if it were instead a near mirror image of the redguards sustain tool, but a bit toned down with an added conditional? Here's something along the lines of what I'm thinking:

"when you use an ability, restore 400 magicka. If the ability used does not deal damage to an enemy, the magicka return is doubled. This can occur once every 6 seconds"

That way they still get some sustain in other roles (although significantly less than currently found on PTS) while maintaining their godly sustain in support roles.

Edit: editing this change into the original post

HatchetHaro · February 2019

Just some points I have to make.

1. Health, Stamina, and Magicka are not treated equally even in-game; Health set bonuses and enchantments are always 10% more potent than equivalent Stamina and Magicka values, so only allotting 3000 per resource is unfair in terms of races who receive a Health bonus.

2. Dual set bonuses like Weapon + Spell Damage should not be used; those are from special Monster sets and those types of bonuses are unique to them. Imagine how OP a race would be in PvP if they received double Domihaus 1pc set bonuses (1096 Stamina + 1096 Magicka).

3. In terms of satisfying different roles, Health is the least flexible and useful, and thus should be assigned the least value. The reasoning is that Health only benefits tanks and PvPers; for PvE DPS and Healers, any additional Health is wasted; DPS roles already spec all of their points into one resource, and they have no way of converting the wasted Health they have into Stamina or Magicka.
Conversely, Stamina benefits both Tanking and DPS, and Magicka benefits both Healing and DPS; a race with extra Stamina can simply spec more points into Health and gain enough bonus to match a race with simply more Health. (Actually, taken from point 1 above, the race with extra Stamina speccing more points into Health will ultimately get more of a benefit than a race with just Health).
Health should just be a defensive bonus. That is all they are good for and that is all they represent.

4. Set bonuses are also not equal in terms of usefulness and flexibility. For example, Healing Received is not a flexible bonus; it is purely a defensive stat, nothing more. On the other hand, Spell Damage can boost Damage Done and Healing Done, and ability Cost Reduction is a sustain boost that can be translated into more DPS in sustained fights.

5. Hybrids suck. A race doesn't really benefit from having the same amount in both Stamina and Magicka; if a race has 1000 Magicka and Stamina, for example, this means that they suck at Magicka compared to a race with 2000 Magicka, and they suck at Stamina compared to a race with 2000 Stamina. Even in terms of PvP, these hybrid resources don't benefit anyone since the peeps with 2000 Magicka can just spec more into Stamina to equalize it. My suggestion is to favor one side when it comes to hybrids, and give them a little more to set them apart, such as 1500 Stamina and 1000 Magicka.

6. The effectiveness of Tanking, Healing, and PvP are all limited more by player skill and less by stats; a great player can tank on an Altmer as well as they can on an Argonian, Engulfing and Alkosh uptimes and everything, and good players in PvP know how to make good use of the stats their races provide them to perform well. However, the DPS role, the most widespread of all the roles, is has a ceiling limited purely by their stats; it means that a player will always perform better on an Altmer compared to an Argonian. This, coupled with the flexibility of Stamina and Magicka-type bonuses outlined in point 3 above, will always make races specialized for DPS more desirable.

twing1_ · February 2019

HatchetHaro wrote: »

1. Health, Stamina, and Magicka are not treated equally even in-game; Health set bonuses and enchantments are always 10% more potent than equivalent Stamina and Magicka values, so only allotting 3000 per resource is unfair in terms of races who receive a Health bonus.

2. Dual set bonuses like Weapon + Spell Damage should not be used; those are from special Monster sets and those types of bonuses are unique to them. Imagine how OP a race would be in PvP if they received double Domihaus 1pc set bonuses (1096 Stamina + 1096 Magicka).

3. In terms of satisfying different roles, Health is the least flexible and useful, and thus should be assigned the least value. The reasoning is that Health only benefits tanks and PvPers; for PvE DPS and Healers, any additional Health is wasted; DPS roles already spec all of their points into one resource, and they have no way of converting the wasted Health they have into Stamina or Magicka.
Conversely, Stamina benefits both Tanking and DPS, and Magicka benefits both Healing and DPS; a race with extra Stamina can simply spec more points into Health and gain enough bonus to match a race with simply more Health. (Actually, taken from point 1 above, the race with extra Stamina speccing more points into Health will ultimately get more of a benefit than a race with just Health).
Health should just be a defensive bonus. That's all they are good for and that is all they represent.

4. Set bonuses are also not equal in terms of usefulness and flexibility. For example, Healing Received is not a flexible bonus; it is purely a defensive stat, nothing more. On the other hand, Spell Damage can boost Damage Done and Healing Done, and ability Cost Reduction is a sustain boost that can be translated into more DPS in sustained fights.

5. Hybrids suck. A race doesn't really benefit from having the same amount in both Stamina and Magicka; if a race has 1000 Magicka and Stamina, for example, this means that they suck at Magicka compared to a race with 2000 Magicka, and they suck at Stamina compared to a race with 2000 Stamina. Even in terms of PvP, these hybrid resources don't benefit anyone since the peeps with 2000 Magicka can just spec more into Stamina to equalize it. My suggestion is to favor one side, such as 1500 Stamina and 500 Magicka.

@HatchetHaro

That's a very interesting and valid point about the max health bonus having different values than magicka and stamina in other aspects of the game. I'm surprised it was not brought up earlier, to be honest. It can be very easily resolved, of course, by multiplying my current suggested health bonuses by 1.1x if necessary. But, I feel that keeping the values as is would work best as it better steers some races into more defensive roles, requiring them to make a greater commitment of resources into offensive stats to break them out of this role and up to speed with other more offensive races. It is also for this reason I am leaving it under the 3000 max resource allotment and not in the defensive bonuses.

@ your point about the double set bonuses, I feel like where I've used them is appropriate. No build can take too much advantage of both of these at the same time (as the only offensive power bonuses I doubled up are weapon/spell damage or physical/spell penetration, as I have granted no max resource set bonuses on account of all max resources being handled in the 3000 max resource allotment). The imperial cost reduction to both magicka and stamina abilities and the nords physical/spell resistance are the two exceptions, but I feel these are underwhelming to begin with due to their place on both weaker (from an offensive standpoint) races and also their lack of standalone offensive potential.

And while yes, hybrid races generally speaking do not have the same offensive capabilities as "pure" races, I feel like this tradeoff is necessary to balance out their ability to play as either magicka or stamina. This is balanced out inherently by the splitting of their max resources. What they lack in offensive power, however, they more than make up for in resource sustain. I address this in some detail in an earlier comment:

twing1_ wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP has disregarded part of what Zos is attempting to accomplish and that is to create choices for us in choosing a race for a build.

The first and most significant part that is being disregarded is passives clearly designed to benefit hybrids. The summer having over 3500 max stat is not a problem since tgat Passive is weaker than the 2k Magicka the High Elf gets

In other words, the over simplification OP has presented does not actually make for better balance.

Further, the choices we have been given per,of us to choose between more damage or sustain or resistance. And overall the balance is pretty good. So again, the over simplification actually reduces our choices without really improving balance.

@idk

Interesting point you bring up in the hybrid viability of dunmers. Especially when I've actually allocated to them what I believed to be more hybrid utility than they currently have on v4.3.3.

From a statistical perspective, my variation on them possess more, not less, hybrid stats than currently found on PTS. This is due to their added off-stat sustain found in their sustain tool, which is actually the strongest of all the sustain tools in terms of potency (215 resources/2 seconds, where the next runner up is found on both bosmer and Breton with 200 resources/2 seconds).

While it comes at the cost of 375 max resources in both the stamina and magicka department (750 total), the added bonus to sustain (the rough equivalent of ~140 adjusted resource recovery, after taking into account % modifiers) i believe more than makes up for this. This is evidenced by standard item set bonuses granting either 1096 max resources (which 750 falls below) and also 129 resource recovery (which 140 exceeds).

Therefore, my changes to dunmer actually provide more hybrid utility to their race, albeit in the form of sustain and not max resources. This is only the case, of course, if the current balance between preexisting item set bonuses is to be observed.

This is a slight reduction to their raw damage potential, but as their current parsing shows, they can afford the hit (because they are currently roughly tied with the top dps parses in both magicka and stamina). Their added off-stat utility would even allow hybrid builds to make up for this damage loss in other areas via mundus or gear (as they could then dedicate less of these resources to sustaining themselves and instead focus on increasing their damage)

This was my intention, as it would seem it provides even more choices to make in terms of build diversity, while also (barely) limiting the damage potential of players who choose to play this race as strictly magicka or strictly stamina (endgame builds) to give the slight edge to the "pure" races.

And for your final concern regarding the balance between dps roles: this is why I focused so much of my rebalance attempts at closing the gaps between the races in the latest dps parses. This is why I've added offensive set bonuses or additional max resources to tier 2 races, while leaving the offensive stats of the first tier races unchanged.

Strider__Roshin · February 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

They’re really not gonna go through and redo so much at this last week of PTS. Perhaps we will see a bit more adjustment to a couple races like argonian or bosmer but I really doubt much will be done.

Then I guess Nords will be then more of a dead race than last update.

For straight DPS in a min max sort of way? Yeah maybe. They’ll still be great for tanks and a variety of PvP builds. As I’ve mentioned before someone’s already put out a 50k+ resist Nord build wit 4K wpn damage and good looking stats. You still playing medium armor stambalde w/out cloak?

I've been using cloak since returning to the game. With Shadow Image being broken it's not a reliable escape anymore.

Tabbycat · February 2019

Making Bretons a lower tier in Magicka ability makes as much sense (lore wise) as giving Altmer stamina regen.

templesus · February 2019

I feel like you’re overvaluing Breton’s sustain on live and not quite sure where you’re getting your data. According to the endgame trial groups, raid buffed dps is High Elf>Dark Elf>Breton>Khajiit. They are third best currently, no reason they need a nerf.

HatchetHaro · February 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

That's a very interesting and valid point about the max health bonus having different values than magicka and stamina in other aspects of the game. I'm surprised it was not brought up earlier, to be honest. It can be very easily resolved, of course, by multiplying my current suggested health bonuses by 1.1x if necessary. But, I feel that keeping the values as is would work best as it better steers some races into more defensive roles, requiring them to make a greater commitment of resources into offensive stats to break them out of this role and up to speed with other more offensive races. It is also for this reason I am leaving it under the 3000 max resource allotment and not in the defensive bonuses.

If the Health bonuses aren't boosted by 10%, it would just put the races who have that max Health bonus at a disadvantage in the first place.

Case-in-point, if I take your Redguard (3000 Stam) and try to match it to your Orc (2000 Stam 1000 Health) in terms of just resource stats by allocating points into Health or putting on Health glyphs, the Redguard would end up with the equivalent of 2000 Stamina and 1100 health, or 2091 Stamina and 1000 Health. This means that in terms of resource stats, the Redguard would have more compared to the Orc.

Another thing to note here is that people in offensive roles already allocate all of their resources into offensive stats, and you can't make a "greater commitment of resources" when you've already committed all of it. You don't really see Altmer or Dunmer DPS putting more points into Health when scorepushing trials.

This just comes back to the whole DPS stat ceiling thing I've mentioned; DPS roles min/max the hell out of that stat ceiling, and any passive or resources that don't align with that are basically completely wasted and would put that race at a disadvantage.

It also ties in to my argument about hybrids; hybrids will always lag behind specialized races, that I know, and agree with. However, the tradeoff in wasted resources also means they are lacking in too much in both resources to be anywhere near viable for either. Hybrid races should be buffed slightly in terms of resources so they would still be viable in both Stamina and Magicka, and they still won't ever match specialized races; basically, more of whatever they use should be a bit more useful.

twing1_ · February 2019

Tabbycat wrote: »

Making Bretons a lower tier in Magicka ability makes as much sense (lore wise) as giving Altmer stamina regen.

Granted. But from a balance perspective, I feel it is necessary. They currently have both the best sustain and are tied for the highest parses, whereas the altmer have given up all sustain in order to compete for a top seat.

MyKillv2.0 · February 2019

The idea of giving ANY race max resource pool and max spell damage seems broken to me. They should give either one or the other. Racial balance shouldn’t be complicated. Give one max resource/ max damage, a flavor spec like cost reduction/recovery and the last could be where you put mitigation/stealth and other resources/.

Races should give flavor, not be a crutch.

twing1_ · February 2019

templesus wrote: »

I feel like you’re overvaluing Breton’s sustain on live and not quite sure where you’re getting your data. According to the endgame trial groups, raid buffed dps is High Elf>Dark Elf>Breton>Khajiit. They are third best currently, no reason they need a nerf.

Here is a link to the study i am basing my assumptions off of:

twing1_ wrote: »

It is also important to note that my proposed changes are based off of the most recent analysis of DPS parses done by @susmitds and the Hell Runners Guild, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

Later in this thread, I provide a detailed analysis of this study and use its findings to justify the changes I make to the races.

Big shout out and special thanks to those brave and patient souls, willing to take the time for all those DPS parses in the name of science. This wouldn't be possible without you. Well conducted, guys.

twing1_ · February 2019

HatchetHaro wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

That's a very interesting and valid point about the max health bonus having different values than magicka and stamina in other aspects of the game. I'm surprised it was not brought up earlier, to be honest. It can be very easily resolved, of course, by multiplying my current suggested health bonuses by 1.1x if necessary. But, I feel that keeping the values as is would work best as it better steers some races into more defensive roles, requiring them to make a greater commitment of resources into offensive stats to break them out of this role and up to speed with other more offensive races. It is also for this reason I am leaving it under the 3000 max resource allotment and not in the defensive bonuses.

If the Health bonuses aren't boosted by 10%, it would just put the races who have that max Health bonus at a disadvantage in the first place.

Case-in-point, if I take your Redguard (3000 Stam) and try to match it to your Orc (2000 Stam 1000 Health) in terms of just resource stats by allocating points into Health or putting on Health glyphs, the Redguard would end up with the equivalent of 2000 Stamina and 1100 health, or 2091 Stamina and 1000 Health. This means that in terms of resource stats, the Redguard would have more compared to the Orc.

Another thing to note here is that people in offensive roles already allocate all of their resources into offensive stats, and you can't make a "greater commitment of resources" when you've already committed all of it. You don't really see Altmer or Dunmer DPS putting more points into Health when scorepushing trials.

This just comes back to the whole DPS stat ceiling thing I've mentioned; DPS roles min/max the hell out of that stat ceiling, and any passive or resources that don't align with that are basically completely wasted and would put that race at a disadvantage.

It also ties in to my argument about hybrids; hybrids will always lag behind specialized races, that I know, and agree with. However, the tradeoff in wasted resources also means they are lacking in too much in both resources to be anywhere near viable for either. Hybrid races should be buffed slightly in terms of resources so they would still be viable in both Stamina and Magicka, and they still won't ever match specialized races; basically, more of whatever they use should be a bit more useful.

Well defensed. I will bump up racial health bonuses by 10%.

But every endgame build I've come across specs into health in one way or another. Generally, this is through food. In some cases, the racial health bonuses actually allow races to instead of using max health/max stam food, use something like dubious camoran throne. Or even, speccing some attributes into health and instead running straight max stam food. These health bonuses aren't useless to dps roles, as you are suggesting.

It is a shame that dunmer have suffered a loss of 375 max stam and magicka. But even with this loss, they are predicted to be the 2nd highest dps race (parsing just below altmer and orc, for magicka and stamina respectively). This is on account of their set bonuses to both weapon and spell damage. As such, I don't think this reduction will drastically alter the position the dunmer are already in, and that position is a good one.

As for the other hybrid race, Khajit, they are receiving a stat increase a cross the board, in both max stats and sustain.

templesus · February 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I feel like you’re overvaluing Breton’s sustain on live and not quite sure where you’re getting your data. According to the endgame trial groups, raid buffed dps is High Elf>Dark Elf>Breton>Khajiit. They are third best currently, no reason they need a nerf.

Here is a link to the study i am basing my assumptions off of:

twing1_ wrote: »

It is also important to note that my proposed changes are based off of the most recent analysis of DPS parses done by @susmitds and the Hell Runners Guild, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

Later in this thread, I provide a detailed analysis of this study and use its findings to justify the changes I make to the races.

Big shout out and special thanks to those brave and patient souls, willing to take the time for all those DPS parses in the name of science. This wouldn't be possible without you. Well conducted, guys.

I figured as much. That data is severely skewed and wrong as minor vulnerability uptime wasn’t even accounted for.

As I said, the endgame trial guilds have done tests and the dps is currently Altmer>Dunmer>Breton>Khajiit. Breton will only be better against trash.

twing1_ · February 2019

templesus wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I feel like you’re overvaluing Breton’s sustain on live and not quite sure where you’re getting your data. According to the endgame trial groups, raid buffed dps is High Elf>Dark Elf>Breton>Khajiit. They are third best currently, no reason they need a nerf.

Here is a link to the study i am basing my assumptions off of:

twing1_ wrote: »

It is also important to note that my proposed changes are based off of the most recent analysis of DPS parses done by @susmitds and the Hell Runners Guild, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

Later in this thread, I provide a detailed analysis of this study and use its findings to justify the changes I make to the races.

Big shout out and special thanks to those brave and patient souls, willing to take the time for all those DPS parses in the name of science. This wouldn't be possible without you. Well conducted, guys.

I figured as much. That data is severely skewed and wrong as minor vulnerability uptime wasn’t even accounted for.

As I said, the endgame trial guilds have done tests and the dps is currently Altmer>Dunmer>Khajiit>Breton. Breton will only be better against trash.

Could you please post a link to data that reflects this? I have heard this, but the only data I have seen supports otherwise.

susmitds · February 2019

templesus wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I feel like you’re overvaluing Breton’s sustain on live and not quite sure where you’re getting your data. According to the endgame trial groups, raid buffed dps is High Elf>Dark Elf>Breton>Khajiit. They are third best currently, no reason they need a nerf.

Here is a link to the study i am basing my assumptions off of:

twing1_ wrote: »

It is also important to note that my proposed changes are based off of the most recent analysis of DPS parses done by @susmitds and the Hell Runners Guild, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

Later in this thread, I provide a detailed analysis of this study and use its findings to justify the changes I make to the races.

Big shout out and special thanks to those brave and patient souls, willing to take the time for all those DPS parses in the name of science. This wouldn't be possible without you. Well conducted, guys.

I figured as much. That data is severely skewed and wrong as minor vulnerability uptime wasn’t even accounted for.

As I said, the endgame trial guilds have done tests and the dps is currently Altmer>Dunmer>Khajiit>Breton. Breton will only be better against trash.

There is no shock damage except MagSorc in my tests or any external source of Minor Vulnerability.

twing1_ · February 2019

susmitds wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I feel like you’re overvaluing Breton’s sustain on live and not quite sure where you’re getting your data. According to the endgame trial groups, raid buffed dps is High Elf>Dark Elf>Breton>Khajiit. They are third best currently, no reason they need a nerf.

Here is a link to the study i am basing my assumptions off of:

twing1_ wrote: »

It is also important to note that my proposed changes are based off of the most recent analysis of DPS parses done by @susmitds and the Hell Runners Guild, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

Later in this thread, I provide a detailed analysis of this study and use its findings to justify the changes I make to the races.

Big shout out and special thanks to those brave and patient souls, willing to take the time for all those DPS parses in the name of science. This wouldn't be possible without you. Well conducted, guys.

I figured as much. That data is severely skewed and wrong as minor vulnerability uptime wasn’t even accounted for.

As I said, the endgame trial guilds have done tests and the dps is currently Altmer>Dunmer>Khajiit>Breton. Breton will only be better against trash.

There is no shock damage except MagSorc in my tests or any external source of Minor Vulnerability.

I don't believe the lack of minor vulnerability would favor Breton over the other races, as this debuff provides a flat 8% increase in damage to all races a cross the board.

templesus · February 2019

susmitds wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I feel like you’re overvaluing Breton’s sustain on live and not quite sure where you’re getting your data. According to the endgame trial groups, raid buffed dps is High Elf>Dark Elf>Breton>Khajiit. They are third best currently, no reason they need a nerf.

Here is a link to the study i am basing my assumptions off of:

twing1_ wrote: »

It is also important to note that my proposed changes are based off of the most recent analysis of DPS parses done by @susmitds and the Hell Runners Guild, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

Later in this thread, I provide a detailed analysis of this study and use its findings to justify the changes I make to the races.

Big shout out and special thanks to those brave and patient souls, willing to take the time for all those DPS parses in the name of science. This wouldn't be possible without you. Well conducted, guys.

I figured as much. That data is severely skewed and wrong as minor vulnerability uptime wasn’t even accounted for.

As I said, the endgame trial guilds have done tests and the dps is currently Altmer>Dunmer>Khajiit>Breton. Breton will only be better against trash.

There is no shock damage except MagSorc in my tests or any external source of Minor Vulnerability.

You realize that Elemental Weapon procs Minor vulnerability correct?

twing1_ wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I feel like you’re overvaluing Breton’s sustain on live and not quite sure where you’re getting your data. According to the endgame trial groups, raid buffed dps is High Elf>Dark Elf>Breton>Khajiit. They are third best currently, no reason they need a nerf.

Here is a link to the study i am basing my assumptions off of:

twing1_ wrote: »

It is also important to note that my proposed changes are based off of the most recent analysis of DPS parses done by @susmitds and the Hell Runners Guild, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

Later in this thread, I provide a detailed analysis of this study and use its findings to justify the changes I make to the races.

Big shout out and special thanks to those brave and patient souls, willing to take the time for all those DPS parses in the name of science. This wouldn't be possible without you. Well conducted, guys.

I figured as much. That data is severely skewed and wrong as minor vulnerability uptime wasn’t even accounted for.

As I said, the endgame trial guilds have done tests and the dps is currently Altmer>Dunmer>Khajiit>Breton. Breton will only be better against trash.

There is no shock damage except MagSorc in my tests or any external source of Minor Vulnerability.

I don't believe the lack of minor vulnerability would favor Breton over the other races, as this debuff provides a flat 8% increase in damage to all races a cross the board.

It’s not about the lack, it’s about the varying uptimes. That’s why you’ll see a 4K difference in DPS between parses on those charts.

Here’s a video of someone in the endgame community testing the races with minor vulnerability accounted for.

https://youtu.be/_F0pIdxUyEY

Granted this test is with parse food and no Berserker enchant on Breton, but it’s the only one I could find. A lot of endgame players don’t make videos or anything like that regarding DPS tests so it’s hard to find concrete proof. If you join any of the Class Discords you’d find proof just by asking for it.

twing1_ · February 2019

templesus wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I feel like you’re overvaluing Breton’s sustain on live and not quite sure where you’re getting your data. According to the endgame trial groups, raid buffed dps is High Elf>Dark Elf>Breton>Khajiit. They are third best currently, no reason they need a nerf.

Here is a link to the study i am basing my assumptions off of:

twing1_ wrote: »

It is also important to note that my proposed changes are based off of the most recent analysis of DPS parses done by @susmitds and the Hell Runners Guild, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

Later in this thread, I provide a detailed analysis of this study and use its findings to justify the changes I make to the races.

Big shout out and special thanks to those brave and patient souls, willing to take the time for all those DPS parses in the name of science. This wouldn't be possible without you. Well conducted, guys.

I figured as much. That data is severely skewed and wrong as minor vulnerability uptime wasn’t even accounted for.

As I said, the endgame trial guilds have done tests and the dps is currently Altmer>Dunmer>Khajiit>Breton. Breton will only be better against trash.

There is no shock damage except MagSorc in my tests or any external source of Minor Vulnerability.

You realize that Elemental Weapon procs Minor vulnerability correct?

twing1_ wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I feel like you’re overvaluing Breton’s sustain on live and not quite sure where you’re getting your data. According to the endgame trial groups, raid buffed dps is High Elf>Dark Elf>Breton>Khajiit. They are third best currently, no reason they need a nerf.

Here is a link to the study i am basing my assumptions off of:

twing1_ wrote: »

It is also important to note that my proposed changes are based off of the most recent analysis of DPS parses done by @susmitds and the Hell Runners Guild, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

Later in this thread, I provide a detailed analysis of this study and use its findings to justify the changes I make to the races.

Big shout out and special thanks to those brave and patient souls, willing to take the time for all those DPS parses in the name of science. This wouldn't be possible without you. Well conducted, guys.

I figured as much. That data is severely skewed and wrong as minor vulnerability uptime wasn’t even accounted for.

As I said, the endgame trial guilds have done tests and the dps is currently Altmer>Dunmer>Khajiit>Breton. Breton will only be better against trash.

There is no shock damage except MagSorc in my tests or any external source of Minor Vulnerability.

I don't believe the lack of minor vulnerability would favor Breton over the other races, as this debuff provides a flat 8% increase in damage to all races a cross the board.

It’s not about the lack, it’s about the varying uptimes. That’s why you’ll see a 4K difference in DPS between parses on those charts.

Here’s a video of someone in the endgame community testing the races with minor vulnerability accounted for. https://youtu.be/_F0pIdxUyEY

Granted this test is with parse food and no Berserker enchant on Breton, but it’s the only one I could find. A lot of endgame players don’t make videos or anything like that regarding DPS tests so it’s hard to find concrete proof. If you join any of the Class Discords you’d find proof just by asking for it.

I too am having difficulty in finding a study conducted better than this. As such, I'm basing my analysis on the best I can find. This is the study linked in the original post.

Even in this setting, I have a hard time believing minor vulnerability would provide any statistical deviation from what is currently being shown. This is because the uptime on each class, mag sorc included, should be consistent (because the only source of this being applied is elemental weapon or shock damage on mag sorc, and within the different classes this is being used consistently accross all races). Although this does provide relatively large differences between individual parses due to varying up times, according to the law of averages, this should be fairly consistent and accounted for when you take the average of a sufficient number of parses.

Minor vulnerability being externally applied for better uptime would have a larger impact on statistical variation between classes, and not races.

templesus · February 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I feel like you’re overvaluing Breton’s sustain on live and not quite sure where you’re getting your data. According to the endgame trial groups, raid buffed dps is High Elf>Dark Elf>Breton>Khajiit. They are third best currently, no reason they need a nerf.

Here is a link to the study i am basing my assumptions off of:

twing1_ wrote: »

It is also important to note that my proposed changes are based off of the most recent analysis of DPS parses done by @susmitds and the Hell Runners Guild, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

Later in this thread, I provide a detailed analysis of this study and use its findings to justify the changes I make to the races.

Big shout out and special thanks to those brave and patient souls, willing to take the time for all those DPS parses in the name of science. This wouldn't be possible without you. Well conducted, guys.

I figured as much. That data is severely skewed and wrong as minor vulnerability uptime wasn’t even accounted for.

As I said, the endgame trial guilds have done tests and the dps is currently Altmer>Dunmer>Khajiit>Breton. Breton will only be better against trash.

There is no shock damage except MagSorc in my tests or any external source of Minor Vulnerability.

You realize that Elemental Weapon procs Minor vulnerability correct?

twing1_ wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I feel like you’re overvaluing Breton’s sustain on live and not quite sure where you’re getting your data. According to the endgame trial groups, raid buffed dps is High Elf>Dark Elf>Breton>Khajiit. They are third best currently, no reason they need a nerf.

Here is a link to the study i am basing my assumptions off of:

twing1_ wrote: »

It is also important to note that my proposed changes are based off of the most recent analysis of DPS parses done by @susmitds and the Hell Runners Guild, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

Later in this thread, I provide a detailed analysis of this study and use its findings to justify the changes I make to the races.

Big shout out and special thanks to those brave and patient souls, willing to take the time for all those DPS parses in the name of science. This wouldn't be possible without you. Well conducted, guys.

I figured as much. That data is severely skewed and wrong as minor vulnerability uptime wasn’t even accounted for.

As I said, the endgame trial guilds have done tests and the dps is currently Altmer>Dunmer>Khajiit>Breton. Breton will only be better against trash.

There is no shock damage except MagSorc in my tests or any external source of Minor Vulnerability.

I don't believe the lack of minor vulnerability would favor Breton over the other races, as this debuff provides a flat 8% increase in damage to all races a cross the board.

It’s not about the lack, it’s about the varying uptimes. That’s why you’ll see a 4K difference in DPS between parses on those charts.

Here’s a video of someone in the endgame community testing the races with minor vulnerability accounted for. https://youtu.be/_F0pIdxUyEY

Granted this test is with parse food and no Berserker enchant on Breton, but it’s the only one I could find. A lot of endgame players don’t make videos or anything like that regarding DPS tests so it’s hard to find concrete proof. If you join any of the Class Discords you’d find proof just by asking for it.

I too am having difficulty in finding a study conducted better than this. As such, I'm basing my analysis on the best I can find. This is the study linked in the original post.

Even in this setting, I have a hard time believing minor vulnerability would provide any statistical deviation from what is currently being shown. This is because the uptime on each class, mag sorc included, should be consistent (because the only source of this being applied is elemental weapon or shock damage on mag sorc, and within the different classes this is being used consistently accross all races). Although this does provide relatively large differences between individual parses due to varying up times, according to the law of averages, this should be fairly consistent and accounted for when you take the average of a sufficient number of parses.

Minor vulnerability being externally applied for better uptime would have a larger impact on statistical variation between classes, and not races.

No, it wouldn’t have a larger class impact over race impact, because in an actual raid you have 100% minor vulnerability uptime with healers running aether. It is entirely possible to have 30% vulnerability uptime from Ele weapon one parse, and 5% the next. Look at Likos tests, he has 100% aether uptime. And minor vulnerability will severely skew data, as it is a heavily impacting random variable. Any endgame PvE player knows this to the point where minor vulnerability uptime almost always has to be shown for DPS parses. If you base your changes off that data you linked then I retract my vote for any of these changes to go through on the principal that the data it’s drawn from is factually incorrect.

HatchetHaro · February 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I feel like you’re overvaluing Breton’s sustain on live and not quite sure where you’re getting your data. According to the endgame trial groups, raid buffed dps is High Elf>Dark Elf>Breton>Khajiit. They are third best currently, no reason they need a nerf.

Here is a link to the study i am basing my assumptions off of:

twing1_ wrote: »

It is also important to note that my proposed changes are based off of the most recent analysis of DPS parses done by @susmitds and the Hell Runners Guild, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

Later in this thread, I provide a detailed analysis of this study and use its findings to justify the changes I make to the races.

Big shout out and special thanks to those brave and patient souls, willing to take the time for all those DPS parses in the name of science. This wouldn't be possible without you. Well conducted, guys.

I figured as much. That data is severely skewed and wrong as minor vulnerability uptime wasn’t even accounted for.

As I said, the endgame trial guilds have done tests and the dps is currently Altmer>Dunmer>Khajiit>Breton. Breton will only be better against trash.

Could you please post a link to data that reflects this? I have heard this, but the only data I have seen supports otherwise.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459447/dps-comparison-of-races-on-pts-v4-3-3-pretty-graphs-analyses-and-farming-for-insightful-votes/p1

susmitds wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I feel like you’re overvaluing Breton’s sustain on live and not quite sure where you’re getting your data. According to the endgame trial groups, raid buffed dps is High Elf>Dark Elf>Breton>Khajiit. They are third best currently, no reason they need a nerf.

Here is a link to the study i am basing my assumptions off of:

twing1_ wrote: »

It is also important to note that my proposed changes are based off of the most recent analysis of DPS parses done by @susmitds and the Hell Runners Guild, found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

Later in this thread, I provide a detailed analysis of this study and use its findings to justify the changes I make to the races.

Big shout out and special thanks to those brave and patient souls, willing to take the time for all those DPS parses in the name of science. This wouldn't be possible without you. Well conducted, guys.

I figured as much. That data is severely skewed and wrong as minor vulnerability uptime wasn’t even accounted for.

As I said, the endgame trial guilds have done tests and the dps is currently Altmer>Dunmer>Khajiit>Breton. Breton will only be better against trash.

There is no shock damage except MagSorc in my tests or any external source of Minor Vulnerability.

Uh...

You do realize that Elemental Weapon procs Concussion and therefore Minor Vulnerability, right?

Also, sure, but you've also introduced a ton of differing variance in your tests in terms of human error and also just ignoring whether the parses had lucky or unlucky crits, which skews the data even further, making it wildly unreliable. If anything, it would have been so much better if you at least also recorded and showed the % of Critical Damage dealt per parse.

At this point, you're just misleading the community with flawed testing and pretty graphs. Having 60k parses with differences of up to (and even over) 6k is, honestly, mathematically atrocious.